Zoe Woodcraft Interview, Part
II Interviewer: Stacy Brooks, Lisa McPherson
Trust Transcript Zoe: When I got back from New York, there was no more room for
me at the INT Ranch. My space had been taken. There's always a waiting
list for the INT Ranch. About 65 kids, almost as much people as there are
at the INT Ranch. Stacy: So where do the kids go that can't get in? Zoe: Well, they're just waiting down in LA. Stacy: Doing what? Zoe: They're... they're just waiting in the cadet orgs there...
with the children there. Stacy: So the parents are up at Gold and the kids are down in
LA? Zoe: I think... Yeah, I know of several cases of that. Stacy: So where'd you go then? Zoe: So then I was like... in the worst living conditions I
think I've ever lived in... even worse than all this. I lived in something
called the AB, the Anthony Building, which is on Fountain Street? Fountain
Avenue? Fountain Street? Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Stacy: In LA? Zoe: Yeah. And that's like four stories of... of crap. That's
just... It's... uh, OK, they tore out the kitchen to make room for adults
that were living in the dorms with the children there, like nannies, and
there was like exposed pipes, and no hot water, and moldy tiles, and
stained mildew carpets, and... what else? Oh, we had these metal bunk beds
that we were always banging our heads on and they always had chipping
paint. And it was like you take this really old apartment building that's
all chipped and ruined, you tear out the kitchen, and you put in a couple
metal bunk beds... I don't know where they got them from... you take a few
old, wierdly painted dressers that are half moldy in one part, or the
drawers are missing... you shove them in there, and then you put some kids
in. And we didn't even have all the bed clothes we were supposed to have,
like some of us would have two sheets and maybe a pillow, and some of us
would have a sheet and a blanket, and like I was without a pillow for a
long time and, yeah, for a long time I also didn't have a blanket. Stacy: Now, let me just make sure I understand this. You're
mother was at Gold... Zoe: Mm-hmm. Stacy: ... and your dad was out of the Sea Org. So you couldn't
live with your dad... Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: ... and you couldn't be up at Gold with your mom. So, now
you're in this building in LA. And who's taking care of you? Who were
these people? Zoe: Well... teachers. Like, the thing... Well, my teacher, at
first was called Nancy, and then I had another teacher called
Kathleen. Stacy: Were these adults? Zoe: Yeah, they were adults. They were our nannies and our
teachers. And they would live in the same rooms with us. Oh, also the
dorms were really crowded, and we also had, like, three-decker bunk beds,
and stuff like that to fit in as much people as possible. Stacy: And how many would be in a room? Zoe: It would be a small area, like a small little room, and
have like four or five girls living in there, and then they would have...
'cause, say that was the bedroom, and then they would have the living
area, which we just thought was another room for beds, and that would have
maybe eight people in there. And then there was a tiny little kitchen area
that was ripped out, and that's where the adult was supposed to sleep. The
adult for my room was missing most of the time. I lived in room 101, and I
don't know where she was. Her daughters lived in that room too with her,
but I don't know where she was. Stacy: So you were living there, basically, with no adult
supervision at all? Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: And you were eight? Zoe: This was... like nine. We didn't have any more beds for
girls to sleep in. So we had a girl named... Beth, Beth Hart. She was my
age. She slept on the floor on a cot, and she'd just started doing that,
and I'd forgotten. Oh and... oh, my dad would pick me up every few nights
to his apartment, because he would try to make it easier for me, and I
felt special because of this... and this was one night when my dad was
supposed to pick me up. And, so I was laying... I was going on my bed of
blankets I'd made by the door, because I didn't really want my dad to
actually walk through, so I laid on this bed of blankets by the door
normally, and I was walking through and I tripped over Beth's cot, and my
knee landed on the other side and it got cut really badly. I almost needed
knee surgery for it. So, I started crying and they turned on all the
lights, and I was holding my knee and it was like blood everywhere, and so
they brought in the first aid girl. The first aid girl was eight years
old. Her name was Shannon, Shannon Linane [sp?]. She was the first aid
girl, so they didn't do any first aid... and then they got adults in, and
they were holding me down. They wouldn't let me look at it, and it was
just bleeding, and they wrapped a towel around it, which made my... it
really hurt when they had to take it off at the hospital. But, so they
didn't want to have to pay for it, because the Sea Org's very cheap. If
you get hurt there, they're like, "God, we have to pay for this?" Even
though you're dedicating your whole life to them. So the waited to somehow
reach my dad, who was out of the Sea Org. So I waited like forty minutes
to an hour for my dad to come, even though I was bleeding badly. Stacy: So they wouldn't have to pay. Zoe: So they wouldn't have to pay. So my dad came and carried me
down to the children's hospital and I got it stitched up. And after that,
I had to do what was called a PTS handling, because... like PTS... I had
an evil source directed towards me, like I was saying earlier... Stacy: So you were a Potential Trouble Source. Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: You were PTS because you had had an accident... Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: ... and the only reason the Scientologists, or anyone,
has an accident is because they're a Potential Trouble Source... Zoe: Yeah, all accidents. Which means you're someone to be
looked down upon... Stacy: ... which means you're connected to a Suppressive
Person. Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: So now you have to go through a process of trying to find
the Suppressive Person that you're connected to, right? Zoe: Yeah, so now I'm nine years old, and I'm getting auditing,
which was church processes to handle this PTSness of mine, and... Stacy: Did you understand what was happening? Zoe: Not really. Oh, and I would get touch assists, where they'd
touch your finger to your body like this and this to try to put you into
communication with it, like spiritual communication I guess... Stacy: To make it heal. Zoe: To make it heal, yeah. Stacy: Did that work? Zoe: No. It actually got infected, because I was living at the
AB in these bad conditions, on crutches, that it wasn't... I couldn't
clean up properly. We didn't even have hot water and baths. Stacy: You didn't even have any hot water at this place? Zoe: No. And sometimes the toilets wouldn't work. As kids... Oh
we used to... we used to be taking baths together, like to save water, I
think it was about. I don't know why, but we were told to. And we used to
hate the cold water so much, we would have someone else [????] the bath.
We would take the biggest container we could find, fill it with hot water
from the sink... sometimes the sink would give us hot water, and they
would pour it over us in the bath, so we would have hot water. So,
eventually it became infected, and then so my dad took me to the hospital
again for it, and he had me spend the week at his apartment, and then
after that my infection stopped because I had good living conditions at my
dad's house. Lawrence: During this period, I'd been forced to leave the Sea
Organization because I didn't have a valid Visa... Zoe: Yeah. Lawrence: ... to be in the States, so then I was put on like a
leave of absence, then I immediately started to run up attorney bills to
try and get a Visa handling, and then I'm working two jobs on church
projects. They allowed me to work on church projects, then they'd pay me.
So, I was working, like, 'til midnight, you know... and then, I had to
live in my own apartment... and then it was a condition that Zoe had to
remain in the Cadet Org so I wasn't pulling her out, too. Zoe: Yeah, because I think he would have taken me out... Lawrence: You know, all of my surplus money went to paying the
attorney, paying the church back. Stacy: So how did you feel when you arrived to find your
daughter... Lawrence: I was furious that she was... her leg was bleeding
really badly, and yet... the children's hospital was about ten minutes
away from this organization... like a huge hospital in Los Angeles. And so
I was like, what is the meaning of letting her be there bleeding? And
they're like, "Oh well, we thought it best to get you here," you know, and
"we were using contact assists and doing tech." So anyway, I didn't bother
to argue and I took her to the children's hospital and they... they... It
was a serious injury, you know that they were worrying about her knee, and
she had to have like two levels of stitches. She had to have like deep
muscle stitches. She was in the Cadet Org and the promise was that they
would take care of all medical bills, and that, you know... it cost me
nearly a thousand dollars in medical bills for that one night. And then
the financial policy is once you've gone ahead and paid money, thank
you... they're wording is... LRH's policy is, you say to the person who
has paid money before getting approval, "Thank you for your contribution."
Yeah. And so, you know, with my kids I'm not going to sit back and wait
for them to develop medical complications when I've got money in the bank
or the credit cards, you know that's... Stacy: But when... when you saw the conditions that Zoe was
living in and the lack of care that she was getting, you must have wanted
to take her out of those conditions. Lawrence: I could see things going... I could see, you know,
promises that had been made to me regarding my children were completely
broken. I could see that they were living in squalid conditions, and
losing their education, and yet... and so, I would complain, but only go
so far. And for my part, I would feel that I had been like a bad Sea Org
member, or I had problems, you know, I had debts... Stacy: So you were still a Scientologist? Lawrence: Still a Scientologist, yeah. Stacy: So you were still in the mindset of someone who feels
that the Scientology policies must be adhered to. Lawrence: Yeah, right. And then, at the back of my mind I knew
of other cases where people had like dropped out of Scientology or... or
come into conflict with Scientology, and you know the Church was so
powerful and so bureaucratic, and you know, to my mind it was just like
going up against the government, you know, or going up against
bureaucracy... Stacy: It was just overwhelming. Lawrence: Yeah, you would just be chewed up and spat out, you
know? And, I already knew that one person or one person seeing their
children didn't matter, you know? The only thing that mattered was the
forward progress of Scientology or clearing the planet. So, you know, if
one person had to be thrown on the sacrifice pyre, so what, you know... I
knew that was the attitude. Stacy: But looking back on it now, from your perspective now, do
you wish that you had gone to the authorities and done something about
this? Lawrence: I still can't really give you an answer to that,
because like... I still... I mean I knew that as a parent I wanted to get
my kids out of that. I... you know, especially after the... what
happened... what transpired with Astra, I wanted to get them out. The way
I chose to do it was to become, you know, secretive, and I plotted and I
schemed and you know, I... Zoe: That was probably better. You might not have gotten
out. Lawrence: ... and once I got Astra out, then Astra and I, you
know, realized what was going on... we schemed and schemed and schemed to
get Zoe out. And I honestly think... you know, and eventually we broke
through and we got her out... Stacy: You succeeded. Zoe: Yeah. Lawrence: We succeeded and I really think... the other... I
think if I'd been confrontational and said, "That's it!" You know... "I'm
leaving! I'm taking my kids!" I think I would have been a loser. I don't
think I could have gone up against the church and the power. Stacy: You think they would have arranged to get the children
back? Lawrence: Yeah. They would have arranged to get the children
back, you know, I would have been dragged through the mire... I, you
know... at the same time, you know, I didn't have unlimited money. I had
to support myself. I had to work, you know... Stacy: You didn't have the money for... Lawrence: I didn't really have the money for... Stacy: ... for a protracted legal battle. Lawrence: No, I didn't. You know, so... I didn't even have a
Visa to be in the States, let alone get an attorney, you know, so I felt
in a weak position, so I thought the only way I can succeed is by
scheming, you know and... and appearing to be a Scientologist and just...
I just became devious. And that probably is the only way it could have
gone down. Stacy: And you didn't even know how bad things were for your two
kids anyway... Lawrence: No, no. Stacy: ... until they got out and started really telling you,
did you? Lawrence: You know, the day Astra told me she had felt
suicidal... you know, how can you be a parent and your kid tells you, "Oh,
at one point I was thinking about suicide"... and you think, "Oh my God,
I've failed as a parent!" I didn't know what was going... I knew bad
things were happening. I didn't know it was this bad, you know, and
there's like a sense of relief that they got through that. You know, what
else... what else can I say? Stacy: Yeah. I understand. Zoe: Well, also we were... the whole time when dad was seeing
these conditions, I would never let him see the full amount. Like I said,
I wouldn't let him walk through the whole dorm. And when he asked me about
stuff [?????], you know, I was still protecting the image of the Sea Org,
and I would say, "Oh, you know, I'm fine. It's fun. You know, I'm doing
good" when I really wasn't. Stacy: Now, why were you protecting it from your dad? Zoe: Because... Stacy: Were you being told? Zoe: You were kind of told, and it's expected of you. I don't
know how to describe it, but the way I was raised was so pro-Scientology
that, it was all I could do to pro... you know... I had to do it. I
felt... I felt it was... it was as necessary as brushing my teeth, you
know, or eating food. It was... it was such a habit, that if anyone ever
said anything about the church, it would come out of my mouth, you know,
defense against... for it. It would just come out of my mouth without me
even thinking of it. I mean... Ok what if I met a person on the street,
and he said, "Oh you're a Scientologist," and I said, "Yeah," and then he
said something bad about it, I would say, "You know, it's great. Other
people don't understand it, but it's really great." And I didn't have to
think about it anymore, because I'd done it so many times. Stacy: Even though the conditions you were living in were
really, really bad? Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: And you were aware that they were... were you aware that
the conditions you were in were... were... were bad conditions? Were you
unhappy about the conditions you were in, or... Zoe: No. I was like... Oh, I was raised in it, so I was so used
to it. Stacy: But... for example, you'd go to your dad's where you
could have a hot bath... Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. Stacy: ... or... and you had a bed with a pillow... Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: ... and a blanket, and a sheet. You know, did it ever...
and, you know, you could have good food... Zoe: The difference between the two worlds wouldn't really come
upon me until later, because after I lived at the AB awhile, and I'd gone
to school there for awhile, my mom called up... Oh! See this whole time
I'd been living at the AB, right when we got back from New York, she went
on another mission to Mexico. So I didn't see her that whole time anyway.
It was just my dad. But then, right after she came back from Mexico,
quickly she went to Florida, back to Florida where we had first come from
originally... Stacy: And left you in LA? Zoe: Yeah. Of course. It was a mission. And then she called me,
and she said, "How about a visit?" and I said, "OK." So, I went out to see
her, and she kind of put me immediately into the Cadet Org, so I kind of
knew it was permanent. Like, the first night I slept on the floor next to
my mom's bed... Stacy: Now this was in Florida at Flag? Zoe: Yeah. So the first night I slept next to the floor... on
the floor, next to her, and then the second night, we had dinner at a
steak house, and then she just went to drop me off at the QI! And I begged
her not to leave me. I was was like, "No, no, don't leave me!" and I was
really upset. Stacy: Now the QI is the Quality Inn. Zoe: Oh yeah, the Quality Inn that we had lived in originally
first. Stacy: And now she's dropping you off... Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: ... with who? Zoe: I had another dorm. Stacy: And, so she's not... Zoe: ... with more nannies Stacy: ... living there? Zoe: Yeah, she's not... she's living like half an hour away. And
I would only see her at the weekends again, except this time I had a job
that brought me near her in the afternoons. But, I said, "No, don't drop
me off!" I said, "Don't leave me! Stay another ten minutes! Stay another
five minutes!" Something. And... Oh! Another situation like this happened
to me at the INT Ranch. After she had dropped me off from my seven-day
Christmas visit with my dad, she left me at the INT Ranch alone. For some
reason, the kids on that day were with their parents that night, and there
was no one at the whole INT Ranch. There was no one! Stacy: You were there alone? Zoe: We didn't even see a security guard. There was no children,
and she... Lawrence: No one? Zoe: No one! For some reason... Lawrence: No one?! Zoe: ... that day there was no one there. And she... she started
putting me to bed, and I said, "Mom, you can't leave me here! There's no
one here!" And she said, "Yeah." And I said, "No, you can't!" And it was
like three or four in the morning. And... Lawrence: My God... I didn't... you never told me this. Zoe: I know, sometimes I forget these things. Stacy: What was she thinking, Zoe... Zoe: I don't know... Stacy: ... what was she thinking? Zoe: I don't know, because that's like a ranch and there's like
coyotes and rattle snakes... Lawrence: Rattle sn... Zoe: But I wouldn't go outside, obviously... Lawrence: She was going to leave you and drive away? Zoe: So, she did. She did leave me. Lawrence: Oh my God! Zoe: So, I was... I was left there and I... I couldn't fall
asleep the whole night. Lawrence: That's, like, a criminal offense. Child
Endangerment. Zoe: I know. I didn't even see a security... Lawrence: And how old... Zoe: ... guard, and it's a huge... Lawrence: ... and how old... you were how old then? Zoe: Seven. Lawrence: Oh my God... Stacy: What happened when somebody came back and found you there
alone? Zoe: Eventually, I guess I went to bed for, like, forty minutes,
and I woke up in the morning, and there were some kids just coming back
with their stuff who said, "You're here? Where have you been for the
last..." Lawrence: Oh my God... Zoe: "... seven days?" Stacy: Did anybody ever... Zoe: No. I was just, like, "Oh my mom just dropped me
here"... Lawrence: So you were left out in the middle of the
desert... Zoe: Yeah! Lawrence: ... complete... at the age of seven... Stacy: That valley is in the middle of nowhere. Lawrence: ... completely alone? Zoe: Yeah. Stacy: Absolutely in the middle of nowhere. Zoe: So, but... yeah... Lawrence: What if there had been an earthquake?...
Like... Zoe: But, so this kind of reminded me of that situation. So,
yeah, she just said adios and left me there. So, I was there in Florida in
this new dorm I had. And actually, like I said, there was like a... such
a... like a structure ans system there, that... that because I was... my
mom had been, like I said, top management, so they moved another kid onto
the mattress on the floor, that the... this was like a nicer room,
obviously, because I was an INT management kid, so she... I actually took
her place. I didn't know it, but they had made that girl move out from her
bed and her dresser, and put her on a mattress on the floor in that same
room. I mean, she was resentful of me for months, and I never knew why,
and finally she told me, and I was like, "Wow! They moved you off your
bed?" But, so this first night, I was lying there, and I kind of... I
could kind of tell that my mom was just going to have me live in the Cadet
Org there at Flag. I'd just gotten there for a visit, and now I was going
to live there. Stacy: And how old were you now? Zoe: Nine... ten. Like I'd just... I'm not exactly sure. Either
nine or ten. That first night, I got so upset. It was one of the worst
nights of my life, and I was missing everything in LA and missing my
father and my sister, and I just went and I threw up that whole dinner we
had at the steak house, and everyone was asking me if I was OK, and I
said, "Yeah, yeah, I'm just missing everyone a little bit." But inside, I
was missing everyone a whole bunch. So much that I was sick with
it. Stacy: And why weren't you telling anybody? Zoe: Because, that's kind of... like... that's just kind of
built into you, that you... you never tell anyone how bad Scientology is.
You always tell them how good everything is, and you always sort of say
your life is going well, and everything's great, when it's not... Stacy: But even... These are your fellow Scientologists. These
are fellow... Zoe: Yeah... Stacy: ... Sea Org members. You couldn't... You didn't feel you
could even talk to them? Zoe: Well, because if you're not happy, it's your fault. If you're not doing well, it's your fault. If you have... If you live in bad living conditions, could someone move you in there? It's your fault for not going and finding and hunting down better living conditions. I mean, I didn't understand that then, but later, in reading LRH policy, it is. Everything is your fault. So, I guess I kind of understood that even then.
Transcript continued in Zoe Woodcraft Interview, Part III |