IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08 ----------------------------------------X : CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE : ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida : corporation, : : Petitioner, : : vs. : : ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL., : : Respondents. : ----------------------------------------x BEFORE: The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR. PLACE: Pinellas County Judicial Building 545 First Avenue North St. Petersbrg, Florida DATE: January 15, 2001 and January 16, 2001 REPORTED BY: JACKIE L. OSTROM Court Reporter --------------------------------------------------- TESTIMONY OF STACY BROOKS -------------------------------------------------- Pages 1 - 75 ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 35 CLEARWATER, FLORIDA (727) 443-0992 APPEARANCES The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR. CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE ET AL 911 Chestnut Clearwater, Florida HELENA KOBRIN, ESQUIRE MOXON AND KOBRIN 3055 Whilshire Boulevard, Suite 900 Los Angeles, California 90010 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship Organization JOHN MERRETT, ESQUIRE 2716 Herschel Street Jacksonville, Florida 32205 BRUCE G. HOWIE, ESQUIRE PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE AND WERNER 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida 33707 Attorneys for Robert Minton and Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc. 3 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that 3 the witness has been previously sworn by The 4 Court and I will continue her under the same 5 oath. But, let's do this just a minute. Let 6 me get this number eight in evidence. 7 (Exhibit Number Eight is admitted into 8 evidence.) 9 Done. 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. MERRETT: 12 Q Ms. Brooks, what is your relationship with 13 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 14 A I'm the President. 15 Q And were you the President back on 16 December 4, 2000? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Let me ask you if recall the events 19 surrounding the examination, touching and 20 photographing of the spy camera by Mr. Minton and 21 myself? 22 A Yes, I do. 23 Q Did you know who made the decision that that 24 needed to be done? 25 A I did. 4 1 Q And why was it that you wanted that done? 2 A The circumstance was that Judge Penick's 3 injunction had just been put into effect and I had 4 read the injunction and was very happy to see that 5 part of it stated that there was to be no harassment 6 of the Lisa McPherson Trust by Scientologists. 7 Q Uh-huh. 8 A And the Scientology security people on 9 Waterson Avenue have made it a practice for a number 10 of months to videotape me every time I come out of the 11 parking structure, all the way until I get into the 12 office and also as soon as I leave the office they 13 would begin to videotape me basically whenever I would 14 leave our building. I felt that we were being 15 harassed that we were being videotaped. 16 Q What about the spy cameras? 17 A Also they had this spy camera that they had 18 set up to take video of everyone who went in and out 19 of our building, both this one which is it on our door 20 on Waterson, but also there was one on our door on 21 Ft. Harrison so that there have been a number of 22 incidences where people who are needing help from us 23 had come into our building and then they were 24 videotaped and then they were affected by having been 25 videotaped by the Scientology camera in adverse ways, 5 1 so when -- 2 Q What is it that you wanted me and Mr. Minton 3 do to? 4 A I wanted you to take photographs of this 5 camera that was trained on our door so that you could 6 attach those photographs as evidence in an order to 7 show cause to Judge Penick for harassment of the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust because of this video camera. 9 Q Are you the person who signed off and asked 10 on the motion for order to show cause asking that the 11 camera be taken down? 12 A I believe so. 13 Q Had Mr. Ward that day told you about the 14 missing seal and the wire running into your phone box? 15 A Yes, and I was very concerned. 16 Q Okay. And for that reason did you ask that 17 Mr. Minton and myself go and collect the necessary 18 evidence to bring that motion? 19 A Well, in fact I asked you. 20 Q Uh-huh. 21 A In fact I asked you to go and take those 22 photographs, however what happened was that you didn't 23 turn out to know how to use the camera well and so Bob 24 Minton took the photographs for you. 25 MR. MERRETT: Okay. If I could have one 6 1 moment, Your Honor? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) 4 BY MR. MERRETT: 5 Q Now, if I recall correctly the other 6 testimonies, you were not outside during the time that 7 the photographs were being taken; is that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q I guess the last thing I want to ask you, 10 sort of in follow up to Mr. Henson and Mr. Ward's 11 cross-examination, have any of the people known as 12 Critics of Scientology been sent to prison? 13 A Not that I know of. 14 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have 15 anything further. 16 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Howie. 17 MR. HOWIE: No questions, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. POPE: 21 Q Yes, Your Honor. Ms. Brooks? 22 A Mr. Pope. 23 Q The LMT, when it decided to come into the 24 City of Clearwater could have picked an office almost 25 anyplace in Pinellas County, couldn't it? 7 1 A Depending on if the owner of the building 2 was brave enough to withstand Scientology's threats. 3 Q But there was nothing that compelled you to 4 move your headquarters right just 20 feet away from 5 the Bank of Clearwater Building, was there? 6 A Yes, in fact, there was. 7 Q You were compelled to do that? 8 A Yes, we are. 9 Q What was the compulsion? 10 A The compulsion was that one of the main 11 reasons that we wanted to have an office in downtown 12 Clearwater was to be available to people who were 13 trying to escape from Scientology, so we wanted to be 14 as close as we possibly could be to where those people 15 were. 16 Q So you made the choice based on your own 17 free will to get just as close as you possibly could 18 to the Scientologist; is that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And you know from your former association 21 with Scientology that they are concerned about 22 security, don't you? 23 A I know from my former association with 24 Scientology that they -- 25 Q Can you answer my question? 8 1 A Yes, I am. 2 THE COURT: She's trying to. Let's give 3 her a chance. 4 BY MR. POPE: 5 Q All right. 6 A I know from my former association that they 7 will do everything possible to destroy critics of 8 Scientology. 9 Q Your Honor, that is not responsive to my 10 question. My question was you know that the 11 Scientologists are concerned about security of their 12 people, aren't they? 13 A And again I will say -- 14 MR. POPE: I'm not getting a responsive 15 answer out of her. 16 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a 17 minute. 18 THE WITNESS: It is responsive, Your 19 Honor. The way he is wording the question 20 isn't quite right. 21 MR. POPE: She wants me to ask her a 22 different question. 23 THE COURT: Hold on. I understand that. 24 And I understand the answer she's trying to 25 give. Was security one of the issues that 9 1 the Church was concerned about? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, the Church is 3 concerned about security only in the sense 4 that they don't want their membership to be 5 able to leave, but as far as -- 6 THE COURT: In other words, they're 7 worried from within rather than without? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. POPE: 11 Q You're aware of that episode out in Oregon 12 where somebody came into a Church facility and shot 13 somebody and rendered them a paraplegic, aren't you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You're aware that automobiles have been 16 crashed into the front of the Ft. Harrison Building, 17 aren't you? 18 A No, I wasn't aware of that, Mr. Pope. 19 Q Are you aware of a knife wielding fellow who 20 I believe was the son of a deputy sheriff in Pinellas 21 County scaling the wall at the Ft. Harrison Hotel and 22 going in there? 23 A I think that came up in a hearing in this 24 case. 25 Q And are you aware of bomb threats to the 10 1 Scientologists in Clearwater and elsewhere? 2 A I'm not actually. 3 Q You aware of a bomb going off out at the 4 Hacienda Village; have you heard about that at all? 5 A I'm not sure if I have. 6 Q Well, the Lisa McPherson Trust brochure says 7 our mission statement to expose the abusive and 8 deceptive practices of Church of Scientology and to 9 help those who have been victimized by it. 10 Can you -- do you contend that you're moving 11 in right next door and with the history of threats 12 that events that plagued Scientology over the years 13 that it is unreasonable for them to be concerned about 14 your organization and the threat that your 15 organization poses to them; do you think that's 16 unreasonable? 17 A Can I answer that question in my own words? 18 Q Try. I'd like to know if you think it's 19 reasonable or unreasonable and you can explain your 20 answer. 21 A Okay. That's what I'll do. I do know for 22 sure that the Lisa McPherson Trust poses a great 23 threat for Scientology because we have created a place 24 where Scientologists who need a place to escape to can 25 come and I know that the reason that they put the 11 1 cameras on our doors in the front and the back and so 2 that they can see, so that they could videotape any 3 Scientologists who came into our building to try to 4 get help and that's why the cameras were out there. 5 Q But -- 6 A And also -- let me finish. 7 Q All right. 8 A And the other reason that the cameras were 9 put there was so that Scientology could videotape 10 anybody who was associating with the Lisa McPherson 11 Trust for the purpose of harassment and information 12 gathering about those people. 13 Q And the harassment that you have suffered at 14 the hands of Scientology since the injunction was 15 entered has been excessive videotaping; is that right? 16 A Among other things, including being followed 17 24 hours a day and one of your process servers told me 18 about this and I believe he's now been fired for 19 speaking to me about it. 20 Q And when you sent Mr. Merrett and Mr. Minton 21 out to inspect this -- 22 A No, I didn't send them out to inspect. 23 Q What did you send them out for? 24 A I sent them out to take photographs of it as 25 evidence for Judge Penick. 12 1 Q You didn't send them out to crawl up on a 2 ladder and tamper with it? 3 A I sent them out to take photographs and they 4 had to get up on the ladder and move it so they could 5 get a clear photo for Judge Penick. That's the only 6 reason that they got up on the ladder and that they 7 moved it at all. They weren't trying to do anything 8 but take a clear photograph for the judge. 9 Q Well, there was ongoing litigation at the 10 time between the LMT and the other defendants here and 11 the Scientologists at the time they did this act, 12 correct? 13 A You mean the injunction? 14 Q Yeah, this lawsuit, right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q It was ongoing? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Why didn't you just ask Mr. Merrett to file 19 a motion for leave to inspect this or file a request 20 that it be allowed to inspected instead of engaging in 21 self-help under these tense circumstances? 22 MR. MERRETT: I'll object. It's calling 23 for a legal conclusion and assuming facts in 24 evidence. There's no self-help that's been 25 demonstrated. 13 1 Self-help is eviction of a tenant 2 without leave of court, assistance from the 3 sheriff, it's retrieval of a vehicle without 4 the assistance of the sheriff. It's a 5 loaded term and a legal term. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 7 MR. HOWIE: I join in the objection and 8 I do believe that it is a misuse of the term 9 and it does call for legal conclusions that 10 this witness is not competent to arrive at. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 BY MR. POPE: 13 Q Can you answer that? 14 A Could you say it again? 15 Q Why did you not file a motion in this court 16 before this judge and say we're suspicious of this 17 camera out here or we're suspicious of these phone 18 lines and we would like to inspect this to see if our 19 suspicions are founded? Why did you not do that? 20 A Well, I didn't know that that was something 21 that could be done and also all I wanted them to do 22 was take some photographs and that's all they did. 23 Q They didn't go up the ladder and touch it? 24 A Well, I mean, but the thing is that they 25 couldn't take a photograph from down on the sidewalk 14 1 because it wouldn't be clear to the judge what it was 2 a photograph of. 3 They had to get right -- they had to get a, 4 you know, judge, they had to get a photograph that 5 showed you what was in the box and in order to get 6 that angle, you know, they had to get up to that level 7 and because the camera was -- because it's like here's 8 the wall and here's the camera and it's angled so that 9 you can literally see our door and you can't take a 10 photograph -- you have to move it a little bit to be 11 able to take a photograph that shows you dead on that 12 it's a camera and that's the only reason that even 13 moved it. 14 They weren't moving it for any nefarious 15 reason at all. I mean I know these guys. They're not 16 doing that. 17 Q Ms. Brooks, over the last year that the LMT 18 has been in Clearwater, how many staff members, 19 Scientology staff members have taken up your offer to 20 seek refuge in your office there or seek your 21 protection? 22 A Several. 23 Q What are their names? 24 MR. MERRETT: Objection. 25 THE WITNESS: I would rather not say. 15 1 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I'm prepared 2 at any time to start putting on the evidence 3 what Scientology does to dissident, but I 4 will object at this point on the basis of 5 relevance. 6 THE COURT: I think we've got a number 7 sufficient. Proceed. 8 MR. POPE: I would like to ask her what 9 is meant by several, Your Honor. Can you be 10 a little bit more specific? 11 THE COURT: That's the question. 12 BY MR. POPE: 13 Q Is that two? 14 THE COURT: Several can be many. What 15 does that mean? 16 BY MR. POPE: 17 Q How many? 18 A Well, you'll have to wait a second while I 19 count, okay. 20 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) 21 At least ten. 22 Q Are these staff members of the Church in 23 Clearwater? 24 A Not all of them. 25 Q How many would be staff members of the 16 1 Church in Clearwater? 2 A Well, do they have to be staff members 3 or -- 4 Q Yeah, that's my question. How many are 5 staff members of the Church in Clearwater? 6 A Well, four. 7 Q Now, you are the President of LMT? 8 A Yes, I am. 9 Q Is that a salaried position? 10 A Yes, it is. 11 Q In addition to the salary you draw from LMT, 12 has during the past five years Mr. Minton paid you 13 additional monies personally? 14 MR. MERRETT: Objection. Relevance. 15 MR. POPE: Goes to the issue of 16 prejudice, bias. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed. 18 BY MR. POPE: 19 Q Can you answer that question? 20 MR. MERRETT: I'm sorry, Your Honor. Is 21 Mr. Pope suggesting to the court that there's 22 a hidden fondness for Scientology that has 23 not yet been disclosed or a hidden hostility 24 towards persons opposed to Scientology which 25 would be devined by this evidence? 17 1 It's clearly cumulative to the fact that 2 she is President of the Lisa McPherson 3 Trust. 4 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I think we're 5 entitled to know the extent of the 6 financial -- 7 MR. MERRETT: It's discovery, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Okay. What did you say? 9 MR. MERRETT: It's discovery, Judge. 10 THE COURT: Oh, I thought you said it's 11 staggering. Then I thought I would like 12 to -- okay. 13 I've got to admit it is discovery and 14 she said that she has paid her extra or I'm 15 not sure she has even answered the question. 16 MR. POPE: She hasn't. I think I'm 17 entitled to know that extent of the financial 18 entanglement here. 19 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I join in the 20 objection. I would add that Mr. Pope has 21 already shown the court that she is in a 22 salaried position. I think that the amount 23 of the salary is hardly relevant for purposes 24 of establishing bias or prejudice. 25 THE COURT: I understand that the 18 1 question is the amount of the salary. 2 MR. HOWIE: And that amount of any 3 payment. 4 MR. POPE: I was asking about personal 5 payments from Mr. Minton, not salary payments 6 from the LMT. 7 THE COURT: The prior witnesses have all 8 testified as to the money that they have 9 gotten over and above contract, etcetera, 10 etcetera. I'm going to allow it. Proceed. 11 BY MR. POPE: 12 Q So can you tell me how much Mr. Minton has 13 personally paid you or paid on your behalf to others 14 in the last five years? 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes, ma'am. 17 THE WITNESS: May I say something to 18 you, please? 19 THE COURT: No. I mean everybody has to 20 hear whatever you have to say. 21 THE WITNESS: No, I don't mean for it to 22 be private. What I would appreciate is if 23 you could understand that in every lawsuit in 24 every case that Scientology has against any 25 of the critics of Scientology, all they want 19 1 to know is how much money Mr. Minton has 2 given to everyone. And I feel that Mr. Pope 3 is delving in my personal life and trying to 4 help Scientology in an intelligence gathering 5 activity for the purpose of things other than 6 in this courtroom and I would really 7 appreciate it if he would not be allowed to 8 follow this line of questioning. 9 THE COURT: That I not be allowed to? 10 THE WITNESS: That he would not be 11 allowed to. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. MERRETT: Judge, if I could be heard 14 briefly on that, it is a fact that for 15 Ms. Kobrin and others, Scientology has been 16 on many fronts in a diligent effort to obtain 17 this precise information. 18 The amount of her salary is not 19 relevant, the amount of the payments is not 20 relevant, however I would ask that if the 21 court deems that it is appropriate for this 22 information to be disclosed here somehow 23 that the court receive that information in 24 camera thereby preserving the witness' 25 privacy rights. 20 1 THE COURT: What I'll do is I'll reserve 2 for further argument tomorrow. 3 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 4 THE COURT: Move on, Mr. Pope. 5 BY MR. POPE: 6 Q Okay. How much money has Mr. Minton put 7 into the LMT since it was founded? 8 MR. MERRETT: Objection, relevance. 9 Again, Jude, is the theory that there is some 10 hidden connection here, that Mr. Minton is 11 secretly favorable to the Scientology, the 12 LMT and that in promoting work of L. Ron 13 Hubbard or that the LMT has been quiet about 14 being opposed to the way that Scientology 15 behaves? 16 THE COURT: Mr. Howie? 17 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I join in the 18 objection. And again I don't know how this 19 shows bias or prejudice for this particular 20 witness, what the LMT receives. 21 MR. POPE: Your Honor, there's money 22 flowing all around here. Money sometimes 23 dictates loyalties. It dictates what people 24 think, sometime dictates what they say. It's 25 always a pertinent inquiry regarding 21 1 motivation. 2 THE COURT: I understand that and again 3 that will be another one you can argue to me 4 tomorrow. But for the purpose of these 5 proceedings as far as any argument about 6 intent or the feelings of either this witness 7 or Mr. Minton re the Church of Scientology, I 8 think that's already been established clearly 9 and unequivocally on the record and unless 10 you know if you can show me that disclosing 11 this money that it's going to grossly effect 12 one way or the other the evidence so far has 13 been presented as to at least the tie to LMT 14 and the injunction by these two individuals, 15 I just say let's move on. 16 BY MR. POPE: 17 Q All right, Your Honor. You complained that 18 the videotaping of you, you consider that to be 19 harassment? 20 A Very much so. 21 Q Now, you, LMT, and its folks engage in 22 videotaping too, don't you? 23 A Yes, we do, however the kind of videotaping 24 we engage in is very much different. We don't engage 25 in surveillance videotaping the way you do. I'm 22 1 sorry, excuse me Mr. Pope. Not you, but the way 2 Scientology does. 3 Q Okay. 4 A It's not surveillance videotaping of -- we 5 don't stand there outside of the doors of Scientology 6 and hold up a video camera as soon as somebody walks 7 out the door and follow them like this until they get 8 out of sight. 9 That's surveillance videotaping. That's 10 harassment. I feel very strongly that it is. 11 When we videotape, we're videotaping 12 activities that are occurring, we're videotaping 13 interaction that's occurring. 14 We're not just surveilling the 15 Scientologists. That's not our purpose and we've 16 never done that. 17 Q What is your purpose of the videotaping that 18 you do that makes it less objectionable than the 19 videotaping that the Scientologists do? 20 A Well, for me, I think that it's important 21 for people to be able to see the interaction that goes 22 on between Scientology and Scientology critics, 23 because in most organizations, especially any kind of 24 nonprofit organization, certainly religions, you know, 25 there is a great concern for the right of free speech 23 1 of others, you know, any other nonprofit organization 2 allows for criticism of them without harassment of the 3 critics and there have been several instances that 4 that we have been able to get on videotape which has 5 made it very clear that Scientology was trying to 6 curtail the free speech of critics of Scientology and 7 we feel very strongly at the Lisa McPherson Trust that 8 it's important for people to understand that 9 Scientology does not allow any criticism at all and 10 that they will do whatever they have to do to silence 11 criticism and so whenever we have an opportunity to 12 put that on videotape, we do, but it's still, I still 13 say that it's a totally different kind of thing from 14 surveillance videotaping intended to intimidate 15 people, especially me. 16 Q And you're intimidated by the videotaping 17 that Scientology does of you; is that right? 18 A I was intimidated in particular by the 19 videotaping that Antonio was doing on me on a daily 20 basis at the time that I asked them to do these 21 photographs. 22 Q May I have a moment, Your Honor? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) 25 MR. POPE: No further questions, Your 24 1 Honor. 2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. MERRETT: 4 Q Ma'am, Mr. Pope asked you about the fellows 5 walking and shot up on the Scientology Orgs up in 6 Oregon, I guess it was? 7 A Yes. 8 Q He was himself a Scientologist, wasn't he. 9 A I actually don't know. 10 Q Okay. Now, can you tell the court please 11 the number of fixed cameras that the LMT maintains 12 conducting surveillance of Scientology property? 13 A None. 14 Q Can you tell the judge the number of fixed 15 surveillance cameras that the LMT maintains anywhere? 16 A None. 17 Q Do you have one in your hall? 18 A Oh, sorry. We have cameras inside right -- 19 well, Your Honor, the way it works is you walk in the 20 door of our building and then there is a big hallway 21 and it goes the length of the building from Waterson 22 to Ft. Harrison, then the entrance of our office is 23 about a third of the way down on -- well, if you're 24 going in the Waterson door about a third of the way 25 down on the right and we have a camera, we had a 25 1 camera installed that has one camera pointing to one 2 door and one camera pointing to the other door. 3 Q And this was on the inside? 4 A It's on the inside. 5 Q Do you have any cameras set up outside that 6 just watch passers by or watch Scientologists? 7 A No. 8 Q Now, your public and vocal opposition to 9 Scientology, can you tell the court whether or not 10 that was underway before you met Mr. Minton? 11 A Oh, yes, I started in 1993. I didn't meet 12 Mr. Minton until 1997. 13 Q So it would be fair to say that Mr. Minton 14 did not get you involved in opposition of Scientology? 15 A Very definitely, he did not. 16 Q Now, you talked about the type of 17 videotaping that the LMT does or that you have done 18 for the LMT. Did have you a German government 19 official visiting Clearwater in July of 2000? 20 A Yes, we did. 21 Q Did you have Mr. Bunker of the LMT videotape 22 this event? 23 A The event? 24 Q Her arrival at the airport? 25 A Yes. 26 1 Q Okay. Was that the purpose of gathering the 2 kind of information and documentation you talked 3 about? 4 A Yes, it was. 5 Q Okay. Have you seen that videotape? 6 A Yes, I have. 7 Q Let me ask you if you've seen this one, the 8 one entitled Ursula Cuberta arrives 7/22? 9 A That's the videotape. 10 Q Is that and example of the kind of 11 videotaping that the LMT does? 12 A Yes, it is. 13 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I think 14 Mr. Pope will want an opportunity to review 15 this one. I have a copy for him. 16 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the arrangement 17 with respect to defensively used videotapes 18 that were not produced in advance as this on 19 was not is that we adjourn the proceedings 20 until I have an opportunity to review and 21 then it comes in and we're getting pretty 22 close to five o'clock now so I would suggest 23 that. 24 MR. MERRETT: That's fine. 25 THE COURT: Let's do that. We'll give 27 1 you a chance to view it and we'll pick this 2 up tomorrow morning at this point in time. 3 MR. MERRETT: Actually,w hat I'd like to 4 do if you don't mind, I can probably do it 5 before five is to finish so that I don't have 6 awkwardness since -- 7 THE COURT: I'll tell you what I'll do. 8 You got a couple more quick questions? 9 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 10 THE COURT: Let's finish this. I won't 11 have to put her under a gag order tonight 12 other than, okay, she is a party so I guess 13 that's all right. She's on the stand, and 14 then tomorrow you want to recall her to 15 present or you and Mr. Pope work something 16 like that, we'll do that. 17 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 18 THE COURT: Go ahead. 19 BY MR. MERRETT: 20 Q Let me ask you this. As far as the use of 21 the camera and videotaping by the LMT, does that 22 generally or nearly universally is that occasions when 23 there are critics or people affiliated with the LMT in 24 the picture? 25 A Of course. 28 1 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have 2 anything further. 3 MR. HOWIE: No questions, Your Honor. 4 MR. POPE: Nothing at this time. 5 THE COURT: All right. Ma'am, you may 6 step down and have a seat back by your 7 attorney. And ladies and gentlemen, as 8 Mr. Pope did note, it's almost five o'clock. 9 This is a good breaking time for today. 10 Tomorrow morning nine o'clock back here, yes. 11 MR. MERRETT: May Mr. Henson be excused? 12 MR. POPE: As far as I'm concerned he 13 can, Your Honor. Although it would mean, I 14 don't know what the court's plans are for the 15 end of this hearing. 16 THE COURT: Yeah, when I get down to the 17 end if there is something that, you know, if 18 I do find that he had violated the 19 injunction, is he in agreement I can go ahead 20 with sentencing at that time? 21 MR. HENSON: Yes, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect. 23 Okay. 24 MR. HENSON: Thank you, Your Honor. 25 MR. POPE: Your Honor? 29 1 THE COURT: Yeah. 2 MR. POPE: For purposes of planning, do 3 we begin at nine, did you say? 4 THE COURT: Yes, is that all right? 5 Stop at five. 6 MR. POPE: I wonder if we could get an 7 idea of just the number of witnesses they 8 contemplate putting on tomorrow and whether 9 they think they're going to be able to finish 10 in one day or are we going to have to do mor? 11 MR. MERRETT: I expect that I would be 12 able to finish tomorrow. I would guess 13 probably four more witnesses, two of them I 14 would expect to be fairly brief, although 15 actually that's nonsense is what that is, 16 judge. As far a brevity. 17 I have only one or two whom I expect 18 would be a total of an hour or more. But I 19 do expect to have four or five more 20 witnesses. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 22 MR. HOWIE: I anticipate at least one 23 approximately an hour. 24 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. Anything, you 25 have rebuttal or anything? 30 1 MR. POPE: Perhaps, but let me ask this 2 question. It sounds to me like we're going 3 to have a full day tomorrow. 4 THE COURT: Right. 5 MR. POPE: And if we don't conclude 6 tomorrow, what do we do then? 7 THE COURT: Monday. 8 MR. POPE: Monday. 9 THE COURT: Nine o'clock. I don't see 10 any way we're going to get to closings 11 tomorrow anyway. 12 MR. POPE: Correct. 13 THE COURT: And I know you're going to 14 at least want the weekend to collect your 15 thoughts if you did present all your evidence 16 tomorrow. And so I know we're looking at 17 Monday, and so you all know for planning -- 18 well, let me state it this way. 19 You're foremost on my calendar. You 20 have my complete attention until this is 21 taken care of so if that takes all next 22 week, you got. Thank you. Have you good 23 might. 24 (Thereupon, the trial was adjourned to 25 reconvene at 9:00 AM.) 31 1 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett, 2 ready to call your next witness? 3 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I would at 4 this point publish the video. 5 THE COURT: Right. Okay. Did you have 6 a chance to see it? 7 MR. POPE: We did and I have not had an 8 opportunity to cross-examine the witness, 9 Ms. Brooks, who identified this video and I 10 wish to do that. 11 THE COURT: Okay. I allowed you to do 12 that before and what we'll do is we'll put 13 Ms. Brooks back on the stand and then I'll 14 give Mr. Pope the opportunity it do that. 15 MR. POPE: And that was also the issue 16 remaining which we'll take up in a minute. 17 THE COURT: The finances? 18 MR. POPE: The finances. 19 THE COURT: All right. We'll get to 20 that in a few minutes. Take your time. Take 21 your time. 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. POPE: 24 Q Good morning, Ms. Brooks. 25 A Good morning, Mr. Pope. 32 1 Q You identified this tape that Mr. Merrett 2 wishes to play for us yesterday and I believe that you 3 were present when the tape was made? 4 A Yes, I was. 5 Q And it was made at the Tampa airport? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And it was made in July of 2000, correct? 8 A Yes, that is correct. 9 Q Some five months at least before this 10 injunction that's at issue was even issued, correct? 11 A Yes. Well, actually wasn't there an 12 injunction issued before? 13 Q There may have been an earlier injunction in 14 place, although I believe that it expired in May and 15 there was no injunction in place in July, as I recall? 16 A Okay, but I don't think the reason for 17 showing the videotape was to show any violation of the 18 injunction. It was to show the kinds of things that 19 we feel it's necessary to videotape and to document. 20 Q Okay. 21 A The interaction between critics of 22 Scientology and Scientology operatives. 23 Q And this videotape is the videotape of the 24 arrival in Tampa from Germany of a woman names Ursula 25 Caberta, correct? 33 1 A Yes. 2 Q That's U-R-S-U-L-A C-A-B-E-R-T-A. 3 THE COURT: Thank you very much. Thank 4 you. 5 BY MR. POPE: 6 Q And Ursula Caberta is a government official 7 in Hamburg, Germany, isn't she? 8 A Yes, she's the head of the Scientology task 9 force for the Hamburg government. 10 Q Known as the working group on Scientology? 11 A Yes, but a better translation into English 12 would be task force. 13 Q And she is currently under investigation by 14 the Hamburg government for accepting money from 15 Mr. Minton, isn't she? 16 A I believe that investigation has concluded. 17 As far as I know there was no -- the government found 18 no evidence in any kind of wrongdoing there. 19 Q And what she does is she promotes the use of 20 forms among German businesses whereby prospective 21 employees have to swear that they don't follow any of 22 the teachings of L. Rob Hubbard; is that right? 23 A Actually that's incorrect. 24 Q That's incorrect? 25 A Yes. 34 1 Q Well, tell me what's correct? 2 A What's correct is that she has -- the 3 Hamburg government has been approached by many 4 businesses -- 5 MR. POPE: Excuse me. 6 THE COURT: Just a second. Just one 7 second. I'll be right back. 8 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took 9 place.) 10 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir. Go 11 ahead. 12 MR. POPE: Your Honor, to the extent the 13 witness is attempting to testify about what 14 businesses have approached the Hamburg 15 government and this sort of thing, it's way 16 outside of her area of competence and it's 17 hearsay. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, but -- 19 MR. POPE: Excuse me. 20 THE COURT: Just a minute. Hold on. 21 Let me play here. 22 MR. MERRETT: If I may. 23 THE COURT: Sir? 24 MR. MERRETT: If I may? 25 THE COURT: Okay. Let me hear from you. 35 1 MR. MERRETT: That problem with that 2 objection is that Mr. Pope posited a 3 statement with which he asked he to agree 4 with was similarly outside her direct 5 knowledge asking was it not true that 6 Ms. Caberta was pushing this document. 7 I believe she is entitled within the 8 same scope of knowledge or non-knowledge to 9 tell what the real story is. I mean he's 10 opened the door and now he's griping about 11 it. 12 THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. Whoa. 13 There's two ways to handle this. I simply 14 say overruled, answer, or okay, ask her to be 15 more direct and you're going to have cross. 16 MR. MERRETT: I guess my point in 17 Mr. Pope actually is objecting to his own 18 question. 19 THE COURT: Within -- I guess it could 20 be interpreted that way. What I'm going to 21 do is this. I'm going to allow her to answer 22 to the best of her ability this question, but 23 let's try and stay on point and if that 24 doesn't satisfy everybody, you each have a 25 chance to get back into it. 36 1 MR. POPE: Okay. 2 MR. MERRETT: All right. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 4 THE WITNESS: What I was trying to 5 clarify, Mr. Pope, is that you are saying she 6 is promoting this thing and I'm just trying 7 to clarify for you that it's not a matter 8 that she is promoting the signing of this 9 declaration. In fact what's happened is that 10 businesses have a approached the Hamburg 11 government because they are been concerned 12 about Scientology front groups, basically 13 management consulting firms, who go in to 14 companies and do not reveal that they are 15 actually there to promote the Hubbard 16 technology and then they get into the company 17 and it's only later that the company 18 discovers this this is what they're been 19 doing and they've found it to be very 20 detrimental so they approached the government 21 and asked for the government to some up with 22 a way that the companies can legally and 23 legitimately ascertain at the outset whether 24 or not this consulting firm is planning to 25 indoctrinate its employees into Hubbard 37 1 technology and it's simply a matter of full 2 disclosure. 3 It's not a matter of any kind of -- it's 4 really not a matter of anything but full 5 disclosure and it's something that the 6 businesses have requested. It's not 7 something that the government is pushing at 8 all. 9 THE COURT: Now, let me ask you 10 something. When you're talking about the 11 Hamburg government, Hamburg is a city. 12 THE WITNESS: It's a state. 13 MR. POPE: A city, state, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Well, all right. That's 15 what I wanted to -- you're not trying to say 16 Hamburg encompasses all of Germany? 17 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, just the State 18 of Hamburg. It's a task force of the Hamburg 19 government, not of the Federal Republic of 20 Germany. 21 THE COURT: I see. Okay. Then you said 22 something else. You said Hubbard technology. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 THE COURT: Is it Hubbard technology or 25 Hubbard philosophy. 38 1 THE WITNESS: No, it's the Hubbard 2 business technology. Basically what happens, 3 Your Honor, is that a management consulting 4 group will go into a business and they will 5 promote the Hubbard management technology in 6 that business. 7 The company will then begin to adopt 8 some of these Hubbard business practices 9 without realizing that it's part of the 10 overall Scientology technology and in the 11 sense that -- then, what will happen is once 12 they started to use the business technology 13 of Hubbard they will then be urged to start 14 going to the Church of Scientology and start 15 getting other services that are beyond the 16 Hubbard business technology and this is what 17 the business have been concerned about is 18 that they feel that it's in a certain way 19 well, really fraudulent because the business 20 consulting firm is saying that it's only 21 there to help the business practice but in 22 fact what it later turns out is that they're 23 there to sort of get a wedge in by the 24 business practice and then really what their 25 intention is, is to get these people to 39 1 become full blown Scientologists and this 2 has caused problems for some the these 3 businesses and so they have asked the 4 government to give them a way in which they 5 can ascertain if the people that are coming 6 in with their business seminars are coming 7 in with Hubbard technology or not. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Now, there have been 9 United Congressional hearings through on 10 religious supression in Germany and stuff by 11 congressional committees and -- 12 THE WITNESS: As a matter of fact I've 13 sat in on that hearing, Your Honor, and there 14 was quite a bit of incorrect information that 15 was given during that hearing because as far 16 as Germany is concerned they do not recognize 17 Scientology as a religion. In Germany 18 Scientology is classified as an extremist 19 political movement. 20 THE COURT: That's all of the country 21 now, not just Hamburg? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, but also including 23 Hamburg, so, you know, it's -- what's 24 happened in with a number of the 25 congressional -- members of this committee, 40 1 the House International Relations Committee 2 is that they have been misinformed basically. 3 In other words, it's not really fair for 4 the U.S. government to condemn Germany or 5 any other country in Europe for their stand 6 on Scientology when that country has not 7 recognized Scientology as a religion and, 8 you know, in 1993 the IRS granted 9 Scientology its tax exception and since that 10 time the United States government has dealt 11 with Scientology as a religion because it 12 got its tax exception as a religion, but up 13 until that time the U.S. government was 14 dealing with Scientology in much the same 15 way that the European countries are dealing 16 with Scientology now and in fact a lot of 17 information has come out about some of the 18 people, some of the Scientologists who have 19 claimed religious discrimination in Germany 20 for example it has turned out upon further 21 investigation that they were -- that it was 22 not a matter of their being discriminated 23 against because of their religion. 24 It was a matter of they're having legal 25 difficulties or other kinds of problems and 41 1 it really didn't have anything to with 2 Germany discriminating against them as a 3 Scientologist because of their religion. 4 THE COURT: When you say that the 5 Congressional International Relation 6 Committees was given disinformation, has 7 anything been done to get more information to 8 that committee? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. As a matter of fact 10 at the Lisa McPherson Trust one of the things 11 that we're working on right now is putting 12 together a packet of information so that they 13 can get the correct information. 14 We've, you know -- I felt when was I 15 there that it was not enough for me to give 16 them my opinion or for me to sort of act as 17 a communicator for the Germany government. 18 I wanted to take the time to gather enough 19 documentation of our own that when I 20 presented the package to our congressmen 21 they would see that the kinds of situations 22 that Germany is concerned about is also 23 happening in the United States with their 24 own constituency and that's taken me a 25 little bit of time, but we now enough 42 1 information that we can do that. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope. 3 BY MR. POPE: 4 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, you do recognize 5 that courts in Germany have recognized Scientology as 6 a religion; you understand that? 7 A I don't believe that's the case. 8 Q You don't think so, all right. And you do 9 understand that in Germany the government levies a 10 church tax on everybody in the country which is sent 11 to the church of your choice which is usually Catholic 12 or Protestant, which makes that country's relationship 13 between church and state substantially different from 14 the United States? 15 A Yes, it's very different there than it is 16 here. 17 Q In fact the state meddles quite a bit more 18 in religious matters in Germany than it does in United 19 States because we have the protection of the First 20 Amendment, correct? 21 A That's incorrect, sir. 22 Q That's wrong, is it? 23 A It's wrong to characterize it as meddling, 24 because the German government has it own constitution. 25 Because of its experience with Nazism in the thirties 43 1 and forties they have an office for the protection of 2 the constitution in that country which our country 3 does not and they deal with extremist political 4 movements in a much more, I guess I would say 5 concerned way, than we do in the United States because 6 of their experience. 7 Q People don't -- people in Germany aren't the 8 beneficiaries of the United States Constitution Bill 9 of Rights, are they? 10 A No, they're the beneficiaries of the German 11 government's office for the protection of the 12 constitution. 13 Q All right? 14 A Mr. Pope, and the other thing that I think 15 you should realize is that there was a lawsuit filed 16 about the Hubbard Declaration in Hamburg and the court 17 in Hamburg threw the lawsuit out and found that the 18 Hubbard Declaration was in fact constitutional and was 19 in fact a legal document, so one of the problems that 20 we have is the difference between the government in 21 the United States and the government in Germany and as 22 I was telling Judge Penick, it's a little unfair for 23 you to characterize what German government is doing in 24 terms of the United States because the German 25 government has its own set of laws and its own 44 1 constitution. 2 Q And I suppose you would feel the same way 3 about the Soviet Union, we shouldn't have criticized 4 the way they ran their country back then either, huh? 5 MR. MERRETT: I'll object. 6 THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon? 7 MR. MERRETT: -- and argumentative. 8 MR. POPE: I'll withdraw the question, 9 Your Honor. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't really think 11 that's appropriate. 12 BY MR. POPE: 13 Q Let me ask you if will concede this, that 14 the United States Trade Commission and the United 15 States State Department both condemn discrimination 16 practices in Germany against Scientologist? That's 17 true, isn't it? 18 A I believe there is a little bit more to that 19 than that. 20 Q But is that true? Is that true, basically 21 is that essentially true what I just asked you? 22 A They have issued statements condemning it, 23 however I'd like to add a little bit of information to 24 clarify that for you. 25 Q Go right ahead. 45 1 A Well, basically what happened and this was 2 reported in several media publications and it was also 3 talked about on Meet the Press, by Sandy Burger, the 4 President Clinton's Security Advisor, but basically 5 what happened was President Clinton made a deal with 6 John Travolta, that -- 7 MR. POPE: Object. Your Honor -- 8 THE COURT: Let her answer. Let her 9 answer. 10 MR. POPE: All right. 11 THE COURT: I admit we're out here a 12 ways, but let's just go ahead. 13 THE WITNESS: But this is really what 14 happened. 15 THE COURT: Okay. I said you can 16 answer. 17 THE WITNESS: It was reported in the 18 media. 19 MR. POPE: Your Honor, she's testifying 20 from what has appeared in a newspaper, you 21 know. 22 THE COURT: Well, I'll give that the 23 credibility I feel it deserves. 24 MR. POPE: As long as the court 25 recognizes the incompetency of the basic 46 1 proposition. 2 MR. MERRETT: Well, I don't know -- 3 look, let's just let her testify and I'll see 4 where it came from and if it's from the media 5 we'll just work on it, okay. 6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, Sandy Burger, 7 the Security Advisor with also discuss this 8 issue. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. I said you 10 may answer. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Basically, John 12 Travolta was going to play the Clinton 13 character in Primary Colors and Clinton told 14 John Travolta that if he would characterize 15 him in a positive way in that movie, Clinton 16 would have his security advisor deal with the 17 issues that John Travolta was concerned, 18 which was the way Scientology was being 19 treated in Germany and for that reason 20 Clinton assigned Sandy Berger to issue this 21 condemnation and Sandy Berger actually 22 discussed this on television and I'm sure you 23 would be able to get a transcript of that TV 24 show if you would be interested in doing so, 25 so, you know, there is a little bit of -- 47 1 MR. MERRETT: Judge, I wonder if 2 Ms. Kobrin and Mr. Shaw could keep their 3 voices down a little here so I can hear what 4 the witness is saying. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Please, folks, let's 6 do this. Maybe -- what I'm pausing to think 7 is to how I can help Mr. Pope here with this 8 note passing and there is kind of gap here. 9 Maybe if you move back a little closer. 10 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I'm getting ready 11 to move off this subject. 12 THE COURT: Okay, because I was just 13 going to say let's go back and see how we got 14 over here this it corridor. 15 The lady came from Germany and she 16 worked for the Hamburg Government and she 17 was promoting these forms. 18 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 19 THE COURT: Scratch that. I'm sorry. 20 There was a question about some forms, so can 21 we get back to that? 22 MR. POPE: Yes, I'll be happy to direct 23 us back to where we were. 24 THE COURT: I have one more question. 25 MR. POPE: Okay. 48 1 THE COURT: Why was the French 2 government here yesterday, or excuse me, the 3 French media? I mean is France into this 4 thing like Germany? 5 THE WITNESS: It's a major issue in 6 France. 7 THE COURT: It is also? 8 THE WITNESS: It's a major issue in 9 France. They are very, very concerned about 10 the Scientology issue in France. 11 THE COURT: Any other European 12 countries? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Belgium is very 14 concerned about it, Austria is very concerned 15 about it, England, Italy, Greece. 16 THE COURT: Italy? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Greece has 18 actually -- 19 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Let's go 20 back. They're making end roads in Italy? 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. The Italian 22 courts actually arrested I think it was close 23 to 200 Scientologists a couple years ago for 24 fraud and now that whole issue is still an 25 issue in the courts in Italy. 49 1 In Greece they banned Scientology 2 because they discovered that Scientologists 3 had somehow or another come into possession 4 of top secret government documents and they 5 were very concerned that th same thing that 6 happened in the United States in the late, 7 in the seventies that led to criminal 8 indictments and convictions was happening in 9 Greece where Scientology operatives were 10 infiltrating government offices and stealing 11 documents, so it is a major issue, Your 12 Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: It's not just -- 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 THE WITNESS: And, you know, the 17 governments in the European countries are 18 dealing with it in a very much more serious 19 way. They see it as a much more serious 20 threat than the courts in the United States 21 see it and Scientology is very, very, 22 very -- is trying very, very hard to 23 characterize the concern in Europe as 24 religious discrimination and it's very much 25 not the case. 50 1 It's very much not the case. It is not 2 religious discrimination in Europe. 3 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. There 4 is the Lisa McPherson Trust and you're saying 5 that you all are trying to put forth 6 information about Scientology. 7 THE WITNESS: Well -- 8 THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. Just 9 listen to me. Are you the only organization 10 in the United States or are you the central 11 focus group or how would you classify the 12 Trust in your organization in this cause? 13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, we are the 14 only organization in the United States that 15 is -- there are individuals throughout the 16 United States, but we are the only 17 organization that is actually established to 18 help people have been harmed by Scientology. 19 We have five to ten people week, sometimes 20 more than that, calling us, e-mailing us, I 21 mean from all over the world, not just in the 22 United states, people who have been lost all 23 their money to Scientology, people who have 24 lost their loved ones to Scientology, people 25 who are being harassed by Scientology, I mean 51 1 it's really an almost overwhelming situation 2 that we're trying to deal with. The most -- 3 the thing that we're organized to do more 4 than anything else is to help people who are, 5 well, as Mr. Pope read into the record 6 yesterday, our purpose is to help people who 7 have been abused or deceived by Scientology 8 and that's what we spend our time doing. 9 That's what we spend our time doing. 10 THE COURT: Well, how do you help 11 people? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, we have them relate 13 their, you know, put their information in 14 affidavit form, you know, so that it's 15 legitimate testimony and we have them -- we 16 help them and kind of serve as clearing house 17 for people also where we educate them about 18 the different federal and state agencies that 19 there are available in the United States to 20 help with whatever particular kinds of 21 situations they've encountered. 22 If they've been defrauded, you know, we 23 direct them to the correct federal and state 24 agencies that would deal with those kinds of 25 issues. 52 1 If it's a matter of violation of child 2 labor laws or some sort the of child abuse, 3 then we direct them to the correct agency 4 that are concerned with those kinds of 5 situations. 6 If it's a medical situation where 7 someone has been ordered off their 8 medication for a particular illness or if 9 they have been ordered to stop taking 10 prescribed psychiatric medication as a 11 condition of employment, for example, we 12 refer them to the correct agencies of the 13 United States government that would be 14 concerned with those kind of issues, but 15 basically what we're doing which has really 16 never been done before is we're helping 17 people to become educated about what parts 18 of our government and what laws in our 19 country apply to the kinds of harm that 20 people are being subjected to by this 21 organization. And, Your Honor, I have to 22 tell you that it has nothing to do with the 23 beliefs of Scientology. 24 We make it very, very clear to people 25 who call us that the only thing we're 53 1 concerned with is violations of the law and 2 those are the only things that we deal with. 3 THE COURT: Violations of the law? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Okay. And you say you're 6 helping people and it sounds like you are 7 sort of Don Quixote against all the windmills 8 and do you type -- what type staff, what type 9 help can you give? You know, are you doing 10 this all by yourself? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, we have a staff of 12 about eight people and we work really long 13 hours and, you know, we're trying to make 14 contact with people in other countries that 15 are also helping these people so that we can 16 get more help for ourselves for what we're 17 trying to do, but it's really -- it's really 18 difficult work. 19 We try to help the people that are 20 coming to us and are willing to challenge 21 some of their practices that people wouldn't 22 be being hurt the way that they are being 23 hurt by them and we've tried very hard to 24 get Scientology to listen to us. 25 We've tried to have meetings with -- we 54 1 have had meetings with them. We've tried to 2 appeal to them to stop these things. And 3 instead of being willing to consider the 4 possibility that they be doing something 5 wrong, they respond by attacking us and 6 that's the truth. 7 I'm not saying that we're prefect, Your 8 Honor. We're not angels, you know. 9 Certainly, we've all made mistakes and we've 10 done things wrong, but that doesn't change 11 the fact that there's things that need to be 12 changed about Scientology and that's what 13 we're trying to bring about. 14 THE COURT: So you're trying to be heard 15 in the streets and also work in the offices 16 and behind the scenes? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 18 THE COURT: And you say you're putting 19 out literature and information other than 20 protests and things like that, signs, I mean, 21 do you have -- 22 THE WITNESS: Just protest stuff. 23 THE COURT: Do you have a wealth of 24 materials out there? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, we do, 55 1 and really, Your Honor, you need to 2 understand that the protesting and the 3 picketing is -- it isn't even part of what 4 the Lisa McPherson Trust does. It's really 5 true what these guys were telling you 6 yesterday. 7 These guys have been protesting 8 Scientology long before there was such a 9 thing as the Lisa McPherson Trust. 10 You know, some of the people that are 11 part of the Lisa McPherson Trust also feel 12 that protesting and picketing is a valid 13 form of making their own feelings known 14 about Scientology, but, I mean, you know, I 15 don't have time to do that. 16 You know, most of the people at the Lisa 17 McPherson Trust don't picket. That's not 18 what we're there to do. And really we've 19 tried to make it clear that most of the 20 people that go and picket are not part of 21 the Lisa McPherson Trust, they're not staff 22 of the Lisa McPherson Trust, and people who 23 are employed by the Lisa McPherson Trust 24 never do that on their business hours. It's 25 not part of anybody's job at the Lisa 56 1 McPherson Trust to picket. 2 You know, some of the people will tell 3 you that I really think that sometimes the 4 picketing detracts from the work that we're 5 trying to do because it makes you and other 6 people think that that's our work and it's 7 not. You know, it's just that picketing is 8 a valid form of expression in this country 9 and people have a right to do it. You know 10 what I'm saying? Scientology doesn't want 11 people to be able to criticize them. They 12 don't like to be criticized. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope. 14 BY MR. POPE: 15 Q Let's get back to the airport in July of 16 2000, the arrival of Ms. Caberta. What your videotape 17 shows is that a group of mostly German Scientologists 18 protesting her arrival, correct? 19 A No, Mr. Pope. 20 Q What does it show then? 21 A I mean it has about three or four German 22 Scientologists, but mostly it's Clearwater 23 Scientologists out there organized by the Office of 24 Special Affairs, Ben Shaw who's sitting there with you 25 and others of the Office of Special Affairs people 57 1 were there at the airport directing these people where 2 to go, what to do and, you know, you'll see in the 3 video that as soon as Ms. Caberta emerged from the -- 4 what do you call that thing when you get off the plane 5 and you walk through that tunnel, you know whatever, 6 into the terminal, the first person you'll see is 7 screaming Nazi, Nazi at Ms. Caberta is not a German 8 Scientologists. He's an American name Ian Shelton 9 whose been in Scientology since I was there and he's 10 been doing OSA volunteer work for many, many years. 11 You know, this was a calculated effort to 12 embarrass Ms. Caberta to harass and intimidate her. 13 It had nothing to do with German Scientologists 14 venting their sincere feelings. 15 You know, these people, these German 16 Scientologists also came and harassed us at 17 Ms. Caberta's hotel, laughing at us, baiting us, 18 heckling us, interrupting us at dinner, coming over to 19 our dinner table saying you're a Nazi, you're a Nazi. 20 Why don't you leave our country. You're a Nazi, 21 You're a Nazi. You know, come on. 22 Q These folks who greeted Ms. Caberta were not 23 venting their sincere feelings; is that what you're 24 saying? 25 A The reason that I'm telling you that is 58 1 because several of them were laughing at me make, 2 making a mockery of me and our work and making it very 3 clear that their intention was to harass her and it is 4 seemed very clear to me from the OSA people that were 5 at the airport that it was being directed by the 6 Office of Special Affairs. 7 Q You do you agree that they were exercising 8 that same right of free speech this you contend you're 9 entitled to exercise on the streets of Clearwater? 10 A Yes, but I think that they were doing it in 11 an extremely harassing way and I think the videotape 12 shows that. 13 Q Okay. 14 A You know, nobody arrested them, Mr. Pope. 15 MR. POPE: I have no further questions 16 of this issue, Your Honor. Let me renew 17 based upon this somewhat rambling discourse 18 we've had about church and state in Germany, 19 back to the main issue we have a tape here 20 that was recorded five months before this 21 court's injunction that doesn't prove or 22 disprove any aspect of the central question 23 before the court and that is did the named 24 defendants violate your injunction or not? 25 That's all that's before you today. 59 1 We got way far field on this and this 2 tape doesn't prove or disprove any of that 3 and I would object to its publication, Your 4 Honor, and I don't know if you want to hear 5 from Mr. Merrett on that now? 6 THE COURT: Yeah. 7 MR. POPE: And deal with the financial 8 thing later. 9 THE COURT: Certainly. Mr. Merrett. 10 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, the witness -- 11 THE COURT: Did you want to ask any 12 questions first? 13 MR. MERRETT: No, sir. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. MERRETT: And with respect to 16 Mr. Pope's objections, our walk through the 17 lilies of the valleys was occasioned by his 18 cross-examination. The videotape was offered 19 to show what it is that the LMT videotapes. 20 In other words what sort of things as opposed 21 to videotaping people getting in and out of 22 their cars and people eating lunch and things 23 like that. 24 THE COURT: Okay. And Mr. Howie, sir. 25 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I join in his 60 1 position. After all, it was Mr. Pope who 2 raised the issue, well, don't you take 3 surveillance photos too and by way of her 4 explanation is to the use of the video camera 5 by Lisa McPherson Trust and those associated 6 with them, this is a legitimate response to 7 his own cross-examination. 8 MR. POPE: Your Honor, what possible 9 issue is prove or disproved by what sorts of 10 things that they videotape? That doesn't go 11 to any issue that is currently before this 12 court. 13 MR. MERRETT: If I may, the problem is 14 the issue came up through Mr. Pope's 15 examination of this witness. 16 THE COURT: Let's show the video. 17 Gentlemen, in America, the press actually 18 stays within that area. I can't allow you to 19 roam around the courtroom. That's the way we 20 have it in our policies. 21 What we can do is we're going to turn 22 this around and I'll ask that you turn, you 23 may step down, have a seat out there on the 24 bench but I think that where you are at you 25 will be able to see it. We'll come to you 61 1 rather than you come to us. Okay. I'll 2 step down also. 3 (Whereupon, the videotape was played.) 4 MR. MERRETT: That's Al Butler? 5 THE WITNESS: That's Al Butler. 6 THE COURT: That's who? 7 THE WITNESS: His name is Al Butler. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 9 (Whereupon, videotape was played.) 10 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a 11 minute. Wait a minute. 12 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, This is 13 another camera at the same scene. 14 THE COURT: All right. Wait a minute. 15 Wait a minute. Hold it. She is on the 16 stand. I don't know what's going on here, 17 you get back. 18 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, so the court 19 is aware, he's another one of her attorneys. 20 THE COURT: I don't know him, he hasn't 21 been introduced. There's a new white rose 22 suddenly here, she's on the witness stand and 23 I don't allow you to talk to her when she's 24 on the witness stand. 25 MR. MERRETT: I understand, Your Honor. 62 1 THE COURT: Let's take a break. Bring 2 him in my chambers. 3 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 4 THE COURT: You get up on the witness 5 stand. 6 (Thereupon, the following proceedings were 7 had in the Judge's chambers:) 8 THE COURT: All right. What's going on? 9 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, this is -- 10 THE COURT: Has he filed a notice of 11 appearance or anything? 12 MR. MERRETT: He is a member of the Bars 13 of France and Italy, Jean-Michel and I've 14 forgotten his last name. 15 MR. PESENTI: Pesenti. 16 THE COURT: Okay, and I guess it's 17 somebody I don't know anything about and I 18 suddenly have witness who I allow to get off 19 the stand the help with a video and then I 20 see somebody passing notes and whispering to 21 her and everything else, and quite frankly, 22 explain to me what's going on before I put 23 all of her testimony in the hopper. 24 MR. MERRETT: I understand. 25 THE COURT: Garbage can. 63 1 MR. MERRETT: If he can, his -- 2 obviously English is not his first language 3 or even his third language. If you can 4 explain to the court what you were 5 communicating with Ms. Brooks about. 6 MR. PESENTI: I just write something for 7 her, this is Stacy Brooks. I am French Stacy 8 Brooks' attorney, Mr. President. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. MERRETT: And you're who he's 11 addressing as Mr. President, because that's 12 what the judge is called in France. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. POPE: Perhaps we should see what 15 he's written to her. 16 THE COURT: Yeah. 17 MR. PESENTI: It was nothing -- 18 THE COURT: Yeah, let's put it in the 19 record. 20 MR. MERRETT: If I may, Your Honor -- 21 THE COURT: Put it in the record. 22 MR. MERRETT: If I may, Your Honor, I 23 don't have a problem with that. 24 MR. PESENTI: Nothing. I don't write 25 nothing about -- 64 1 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I didn't 2 tell you it's you're turn. 3 MR. MERRETT: The inside of that, Your 4 Honor, what you're reading now is a note that 5 had previously given to me that was on the 6 table. 7 THE COURT: Here's the problem where we 8 got off track here is he wasn't introduced or 9 anything else. 10 MR. MERRETT: I understand. 11 THE COURT: And I didn't know whether, 12 you know, it's a new face in the crowd and 13 this is something that we've been watching 14 real close with security and everything and 15 my bailiffs need to know when there is a new 16 white rose because nobody else and if you 17 keep passing these things around and suddenly 18 we've got new faces and new players, I can't 19 control security and it becomes a major issue 20 and, you know, we certainly have laws 21 regarding a witness and all and I've been a 22 little lax so they could go back and 23 everybody could see that video, but I'm going 24 to have to put a chair somewhere where nobody 25 can get to anybody that's a witness. We know 65 1 that this is just absolutely and here, 2 Mr. Pope, you can see this. Just the 3 outside. 4 The inside they say was from attorney to 5 attorney and I can't tell what the inside 6 said anyway, but the point being we've got 7 to be careful here. I'm trying to do this 8 the best I can, but don't slip in somebody 9 new on me and then not expect to put your 10 case in severe jeopardy. 11 MR. MERRETT: Had I realized he was 12 coming up, Judge, I would have introduced 13 him. So far he's only come up to be to offer 14 suggestions and assistance and I didn't know 15 he was up there. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. MERRETT: I'm assuming they do 18 things differently in France. 19 THE COURT: Yeah, but I can't allow it 20 here so we've got to get this straightened 21 out. Now, again. I want a business card and 22 everything for the record. Do we have a 23 business card? 24 MR. MERRETT: He said he has one out in 25 his sack. 66 1 THE COURT: Out in the courtroom? 2 MR. MERRETT: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Just give to him when we go 4 back and hand it to the bailiff so it goes 5 into the record. 6 Now, is he going to be part of the team? 7 I mean is he -- 8 MR. MERRETT: No, sir, he's observing to 9 simply get a feel for the witnesses. 10 THE COURT: I see. I was going to say I 11 don't know whether to allow him up at the 12 table, but if he's not an active 13 representative then, I don't want him 14 sitting -- remember we've got to keep the way 15 we're going so that my security, you know, 16 there are people that don't like you sides 17 out there and I don't want somebody slipping 18 up to the table and something go boom. 19 MR. MERRETT: I understand. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Then the next thing I 21 got to be sure is that I've got a pristine 22 witness. I don't want somebody putting words 23 in a witness' mouth while there is all this 24 going on. Now, Mr. Pope, you may. 25 MR. POPE: I had a question about it 67 1 says, In Germany the something is that 2 Scientologists -- looks like PB. What is 3 that? What does that say? In Germany the -- 4 MR. PESENTI: That is the question, the 5 problem. 6 MR. POPE: In Germany, the problem? 7 MR. PESENTI: Yeah, problem. 8 MR. POPE: The problem is that 9 Scientology? 10 MR. PESENTI: I'm sorry, I don't speak 11 very well, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: It's all right. 13 MR. POPE: In Germany the problem in 14 that Scientologist? 15 MR. PESENTI: No, no, just the beginning 16 of that I want to write. 17 MR. POPE: What does the word PB mean? 18 MR. PESENTI: It's a contraction of 19 problem. 20 MR. POPE: Problem, okay. 21 MR. PESENTI: Problem. 22 MR. POPE: Okay, so what you meant to 23 say was in Germany the problem is that 24 Scientologist? 25 MR. PESENTI: No. 68 1 MR. POPE: What does this mean? 2 MR. MERRETT: I believe what he's 3 telling you is that's only a portion. That's 4 only the beginning of what he was going to 5 write. That's not a complete statement. 6 MR. POPE: I see. I see. 7 MR. MERRETT: So it's not referring to a 8 specific Scientologist. That refers to a 9 problem. 10 THE COURT: All right. Let's do this. 11 Please, both Mr. Howie and Mr. Merrett, 12 you've got to introduce people. Anything in 13 front of the rail is going to be strictly 14 controlled by me and my bailiffs. 15 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 16 THE COURT: I will still allow the 17 people to talk to their attorneys to come up 18 and everything else. I've got to be able to 19 allow that, but you see, this quite frankly 20 is scary because this is just what my 21 bailiffs and my security people have been 22 worried about, that somebody we don't know, a 23 ringer, suddenly gets up to the table. 24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 25 THE COURT: Now, I'm going to keep 69 1 Ms. Brooks on the stand and I want you all to 2 make it clear to your people ad everybody 3 else, I want both Mr. Howie and Mr. Minton 4 and also Mr. Pope and the attorneys on that 5 side, we're getting down near the end here 6 but let's don't get careless before something 7 happens. 8 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 9 THE COURT: I'm concerned for everybody. 10 I don't want anything to happen on my watch. 11 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 12 THE COURT: Please. Thank you all. 13 MR. MERRETT: Judge, may I mention 14 something off the record? 15 THE COURT: Sure. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after 18 which the proceedings continued.) 19 THE COURT: All right, let's see about 20 this. Can we go back and pick up where we 21 left off. You were about to do something and 22 I'll allow her to go back down there and we 23 can proceed, but I've got to be -- this has 24 got to be controlled. 25 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 70 1 THE COURT: And this has got to be 2 controlled here, too. 3 MR. POPE: We're going to try to keep it 4 under control. I have learned, Your Honor, 5 that there was one other episode that I 6 didn't personally observe, of contact between 7 Ms. Bennett and this witness during the 8 videotape during which Ms. Bennett either 9 passed a note or passed some information 10 orally to Ms. Brooks while she was sitting 11 out here. Now, I personally didn't see it 12 but this young lady apparently did. 13 THE COURT: Let me -- Ms. Brooks, let me 14 ask you something. When we sat down to view 15 that video, the statement that you put on the 16 record or any answers that you might have 17 give to anything Mr. Merrett said, and I 18 remind you, you're under oath here today, 19 were those answers or statements freely and 20 voluntarily made on your part? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Did anybody instruct you or 23 tell you exactly how to answer or what 24 statements to put on the record? 25 THE WITNESS: No, sir, not at all. 71 1 THE COURT: All right. You ready to 2 pick it back up? 3 MR. MERRETT: Actually, Your Honor, I 4 didn't realize that that second view of those 5 events was on the tape and I have no 6 particular need for the court to see the same 7 thing. 8 THE COURT: You just want to stop there? 9 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 10 THE COURT: You just want to make the 11 point that the Scientologists picket also. 12 MR. MERRETT: Well, and actually the 13 point was that these are the kinds of things 14 that we videotape. 15 THE COURT: I see. Okay. 16 MR. MERRETT: And I don't have any other 17 questions. 18 THE COURT: All right, we'll stop there. 19 All right. Now that is this in evidence? 20 MR. MERRETT: Actually, it wasn't, Your 21 Honor, and you can leave it as a 22 demonstrative aid the court wants it -- 23 THE COURT: Evidence. 24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 25 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I would like to 72 1 know what Ms. Bennett passed information 2 while she was on the stand? 3 THE COURT: Passed on what? 4 MR. POPE: Ms. Bennett. 5 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Time out. You're 6 absolutely right. You have a right to ask 7 questions within what I opened up and then 8 Mr. Merrett and Mr. Howie can ask questions. 9 Sir, you may ask questions. 10 BY MR. POPE: 11 Q Ms. Brooks, while you were sitting out 12 there, didn't Ms. Bennett come up and inform you of 13 something. 14 A She did actually. 15 Q What dis she tell you? 16 A She said those people that are on the video 17 are all Scientologists. 18 Q And then you turned around and testified to 19 that, right? 20 A Yes. 21 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I think that two 22 episodes like this at one time and I think 23 her testimony ought to be stricken. 24 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, you want to ask 25 any questions? 73 1 BY MR. MERRETT: 2 Q Did you already know that those were 3 Scientologists? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. MERRETT: I don't have any other 6 questions. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Howie? 8 MR. HOWIE: No questions, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Now, let's go one step at a 10 time. Bear with me just a minute. All 11 right. That tape is in evidence as Exhibit 12 Number Nine for the Defendant LMT and I 13 will -- in light of the fact that the only 14 statements that Ms. Brooks made that somebody 15 might have told her while she was sitting our 16 there to make was that those are 17 Scientologists, I'm not going to strike it 18 because it was -- we already knew that they 19 were going out to show Scientologists and 20 everything else and if those had turned out 21 to be Southern Baptists, I'd be surprised so 22 I think we'll just press on. 23 MR. POPE: Yes, sir. 24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Now this is in and 74 1 you were going to do that and he had that 2 opportunity, the next thing, Mr. Pope, is it 3 issue of the finances. 4 MR. POPE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. POPE: Let me make my argument then 7 depending on how your rule I either get to 8 ask questions or I don't. 9 THE COURT: Yes, sir, I understand. 10 Mr. Pope, sir. 11 (Conclusion of testimony of Stacy Brooks.) 12 **************************************. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 4 I, JACKIE L. OSTROM, in and for the 5 Sixth Judicial Circuit, State of Florida: 6 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing 7 proceedings were had at the time and place 8 set forth in the caption thereof; that I was 9 authorized to and did stenographically 10 report the said proceedings and that the 11 foregoing pages, numbered 1 through 75, 12 inclusive, is a true and correct 13 transcription of said stenographic report. 14 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 15 affixed my official signature and seal of 16 office this 7th day of March, 2001 at 17 Clearwater, Pinellas County, Florida. 18 19 20 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴� JACKIE L. OSTROM 21 Notary Public, State of Florida, at Large 22 23 24 25