OK. Good afternoon everyone and welcome to Lets Be Clear, a program
about interesting information about the church of scientology from a critics
point of view. I want to thank Maggie Council for letting us use her introductory
music there and you can get more from maggiecouncil.com. Today were
going to be talking about the introspection rundown. Let me see if Ive
got DB on here. DB, are you there? Is that you? Hello?
Hello. This is Maureen.
Oh, Maureen. OK. Sorry. This is Maureen Bolstad. Shell be our guest
today. Well be discussing the introspection rundown. And then I
have, hopefully . . . let me try this one. Hello? Hello? (radio frequency
(RF) audio) OK. Bizarre thing. OK. Anyway
So, todays topic is going to be the introspection rundown, as they
say, and we have chat area where you can get on and then the phone; you
can call in with questions. That number is 347-215-8957. And Im
Jeff Jacobsen in case I didnt say that. Hopefully Im going
to have someone helping me with chat, because sometimes some of these
people get on chat and then I cant keep track of whats going
on over there.
Just a little topic is the future of the show. Im probably just
going to be doing it whenever theres a good topic coming up.
So youre still there Maureen, yeah?
OK. Alrightie. DB, I dont see you on Skype. So Im not sure
whats going on there.
The introspection rundown could you kind of explain what that
is perhaps, within scientology, as much as you know?
OK. Yes. Well theres a quote at the end of the first bulletin that
Hubbard wrote (HCO Bulletin of 23 January 1974R, The Technical Breakthrough
of 1973! The Introspection RD link to a file containing this bulletin
and others on the introspection rundown: http://file.sunshinepress.org:54445/introspection.pdf
) where he says, You have in your hands the tool to take over mental
therapy in full. You need not fear the insane or the psychotic break any
longer. Here also is the cure for the continual self auditing PC who is
dug into his bank. It works on all PCs, in fact, with rave results. Do
it flawlessly and we all win. This planet is ours.
So this rundown is basically a cure for people in a psychotic break or
who are continually introspected, and this is what, scientology, what
they use as their counseling methods to cure these things and it actually
really doesnt work that well.
Scientology is essentially anti-psychiatry so that what they are trying
to do there is find a replacement for how to handle somebody thats
Right. Yeah, I mean basically the idea is that; I mean I was on staff
for about eighteen years in scientology management and one of the things
that we were taught to believe or that we were involved in is that we
were going to save the world by getting rid of psychiatry. And so, on
a personal level, for me, when the rundown didnt help me and actually
made me feel worse. I thought, well what are we doing, if this is the
cure and its not great. Its actually very bad. So, what were
they doing? I mean what really is the end result of scientology then?
If theyre going to get rid of psychiatry but they actually dont
have any other solutions then what are they trying to do?
Right. Hang on, let me try this one more time and see if Ive got
. . . Hello? Who do we have on here? Hello? OK. Well, were losing
DB apparently here.
Let me go through just briefly, Im trying to write down sort of
a history of this attempt by Hubbard to handle psychotic people without
taking them to a psychiatrist, as they should be. In 1955 there was a
Republic article (17 May 1955, House Owner Sues Church http://www.lisamcpherson.org/news/1953-59/newspaper_1953-59.pdf#page=11)
about a woman who sued Dianetics Foundation and L. Ron Hubbard in Phoenix
for wrecking her house, because, basically, they had people . . . Lets
see it says in here, They had persons, the suit charges, with seriously
deranged minds who were destroying her house. This is the first
example that Ive ever found of Hubbard trying to handle psychotic
people. And this case was settled out of court. The newspaper doesnt
say how much or anything.
All through the history of scientology theres been cases where
people were held like this. In London, 1967 a guy stood up in Parliament
and told about a woman who, in his district, had problems. (Hansard, vol.742,
cols. 1216-1228, http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/audit/debate67.html)Her
name was Miss Henslow. And it said that after she worked at East Grinstead,
which is St. Hill in England, she became confused and her mental health
deteriorated, and then the church dropped her off at her mothers
house late one night dressed only in a nightgown and coat, in a completely
deranged condition. So that was a failed attempt I guess.
Monica Pignotti was on board the Apollo ship in 1973 and she said that
she saw the beginnings of the introspection rundown on the ship with L.
Ron Hubbard. 1988, Stacy Young, at the time, Stacy Brooks said that she
was helping guard someone that was on the introspection rundown. 1995
you have Lisa McPhersons case, which is the most documented. 1996
after Lisa McPherson died, Karsten Lorenzen says that he helped a woman
in Denmark that was on the introspection rundown, helped guard her. 2001,
the church of scientology comes out with, The Lisa Clause,
as we call it, which basically scientologists sign to say its
OK to put me in isolation like that, cause I dont believe
in psychiatry. So if I flip out go ahead put me in isolation. 2008,
a case in Sardinia where two scientologists were arrested for kidnapping;
there was a French lady that was being held.
So this has gone throughout the entire history of the church of scientology,
even before. Well, scientology started in 53, so I guess yeah, from
the very beginning.
When you, Maureen, when you were in, when was the first time you ever
heard of this process, the introspection rundown?
I think it was around . . . it was probably around June of 1995 I saw
somebody getting that rundown.
Oh, OK. Where were you? This was at Golden Era Studios?
Yeah, right. I did see some people who seemed to have minor good results
with it, and I dont know what the difference was between them and
me. Maybe they werent as distressed as I was perhaps, or obviously
not as stressed as Lisa was. But there were some people I saw do it and
they seemed to improve a little bit afterwards. It didnt entirely
cure them of whatever was bothering them but it seemed to make them act
So, but there is another point I just want to bring up really quickly
and that is that the determination whether somebody needs to be put in
isolation should not be left up to amateurs. Because I was never a danger
to myself or others and so I did not deserve to be put in isolation. And
I dont really know that Lisa was either. I mean obviously she was
clearly distressed but whether she actually deserved or warranted to be
treated as if she was dangerous, I dont think that thats a
determination to be made by amateurs.
I mean, currently, the way psychiatry works is someone gets put on seventy-two
hour hold there has to be a 51-50 form filled out by a law officer or
social worker or something before they can actually get committed into
an institution like that. Otherwise you cant just walk up to somebody
and put them in isolation just for anything.
Right. When people that hel . . . well, lets say anybody that runs
this process, the case supervisor down to the guards at the door, what
kind of training do you think theyve had?
They could have hardly any training. I mean some of the guards that were
watching me were just fairly new in scientology. They didnt really
have that much scientology training at all. They were just trained to
follow whatever orders they were given.
OK. Also in scientology theres another case . . . fortunately we
have Google nowadays . . . but also I made a web page, its lisamcpherson.org/isolate.htm
which is a collection of related documentation about the introspection
rundown. Also, scientology, theres another thing called baby watch,
PTS type three?
Yeah, thats a slang term for keeping an eye on somebody who is in
isolation or getting that rundown.
OK, so if you hear those two phrases then you figure out somebodys
being in isolation, being held against their will probably. Correct?
I dont know that theyre being held against their will or not.
They may not have any will at all. Theyre just being watched. It
depends on how distressed they really are or why theyre being held
or why they were considered to be crazy, you know.
Yeah, OK. And also theres other cases. Dennis Erlich mentions that
he was put in the basement of the Fort Harrison Hotel, which does exist,
by the way, in Clearwater, for ten days because he told a joke against
somebody that didnt like it. Also Ive heard of cases where
people claimed that they were held in a room until they agreed to pay
so much money for a course or process or whatever. That was essentially
kidnapping if that was true, too. So its not only the introspection
rundown where theyre holding people against their will, as far as
these people have said.
Whos the person that decides to put another on this introspection
rundown? Is it that persons case supervisor or could it be someone
The case supervisor has to authorize the rundown to be done on the individual
but the case supervisor does not order the security guard so theres
somebody else higher up who has to order it, administratively because
the case supervisor isnt the one who is with the person administering
the rundown. The case supervisor is sitting in another room somewhere
doing a lot of other things at the same time and they just look at a folder
and read whats being done and writing notes to the counsellor.
OK. So lets go through just the basic steps of what should an ideal
case, if there is one, of an introspection rundown would be, where, OK,
weve got someone thats apparently flipped out. Someone above,
their case supervisor has decided, OK, this person needs to go onto the
introspection rundown. So lets do that. That person is put in isolation
somewhere and then what would be the ideal steps from there?
Well, first of all in order to get that person and put them into isolation
the case supervisor has to communicate to, say, the security guards or
the HCO personnel. HCO is, I guess, their human resources division. I
dont know how better to explain that. Its just the personnel
department. And so people from that department that also get involved
and there are people from the qualifications division that have to get
involved with the counseling aspect of it to pick a counsellor for this
person and get that counsellor over to that person. All these people have
to get together and be working together and get this person into the room.
And then at that point once the rundown is started the case supervisor
supervises it and the case supervisor would then answer up to the senior
case supervisor international, which would require, I suppose, faxing
the information or maybe even sending the information in a Fed Ex or something
like that so that the senior case supervisor international also knows
whats going on. And also a religious technology center staff to
this rundown is supposed to be done very strictly and very closely and
it gets supervised closely because of the nature of it.
Right. OK. So the person, lets just say for now, seems to be getting
better, then whats the process from that point?
Once the person is in isolation and they rested a little bit and theyve
calmed down somewhat, theyre ready for some counseling, one of the
first steps is they would get checked over for any recent wrong indications
or wrong items or things that they may be overly concerned about or worried
about in their own minds that have made them just stop paying attention
to their outside surroundings and theyre just deeply involved and
thinking over these things. And so the counsellor would try to help them
find these points that made them mentally go down the rabbit hole and
try to get them back out by pointing these things out.
Someone could have walked up to the person and said, Youre
no good. Youre always causing trouble. and the person may
have taken that really seriously and thought, Well Im no good.
Why am I no good? maybe just thinking this over and over in their
head and theyre not really paying attention to their outside surroundings
any more. So if the counsellor and the case supervisor can help find these
points they can just point them out to the person and say these are some
points that made you start introverting and get the person to realize
what hes feeling, what he or she is doing that theyre introverting
or theyre introspecting and why and get them to see that and get
them to quit overly thinking about these things.
OK, so once the case supervisor feels that this person has successfully
done that then what goes on . . . How do you exit from the introspection
Well, you can do most of the steps to the point where youre supposed
to be able to say, Well Im no longer uncontrollably introspective
and Im controlling my attention and now Im able to pay attention
to my environment and communicate with it and the people in it and I can
control it and so Im no longer so destructive I cant function.
Thats sort of the general idea. I mean the theory behind it isnt
wrong. You want people to be aware of their environment and able to control
it and not just overly thinking about things in their head that theyre
never going to resolve.
Yeah. Im going to try one more time with DB here. Is this DB?
Yeah, it is now.
Alright. OK. Well welcome. DB is going to be my assistant today, watching
the chat, which is difficult to do, on this program to watch chat and
do everything else at the same time. Thank you, DB.
Maureen lets get to the specifics of your case then. First, how
long were you in scientology?
OK and you were in the sea org. How high up did you go in the training,
like did you get clear or OT?
No. I really didnt get anywhere. I thought I was like a past life
clear but that really didnt make any sense to me so I had that cancelled.
So I really didnt make it really to anything, any level. I was mostly
just a work horse in the sea organization. I worked for them and that
was mostly what I did.
OK. What year did you first have to be on IR and what was the situation
that brought it about?
In December of 1995 I was sitting in my office and I was upset because
Id requested a transfer. I was in the film crew at the time and
I did a lot of . . . I handled a lot of heavy equipment and it was hurting
my back and it was . . . I was having difficulty physically with lifting
the equipment, the long hours, and I requested a transfer and it was denied.
And I was basically told, No, you cant have a transfer.
And I was just in so much pain that I didnt know what to do. So
I got really upset and I thought well this pain must be my case. Because
Id been in scientology for so long I really didnt know how
to deal with this pain. I didnt know what it was and I thought well
if my superiors dont think its a problem then maybe its
my case, so Ill just figure it out in my head, what this is and
Ill try to resolve it. So I was writing these really long notes
this one day and I just . . . I guess someone said, Oh shes
introspected so were going to put her on this rundown.
So I guess the senior case supervisor for Golden Era Productions, which
is where I was working, decided to have me do the introspection rundown,
cause shed read one of my notes. And so her . . . I guess
her senior came down . . . Yeah, he was her senior. He came down and told
me, Look, youre going to do this rundown. He talked
to my senior and said that I was going to go somewhere else. I was going
to go to a house at their ranch. They had a ranch property out by the
Soboba Indians at the time. They dont own that any more but they
used to. And so they said they were going to take me out there and I was
going to get this rundown. And I just was crying. I just started crying
just uncontrollably. I didnt know what was going on. I guess its
just all these emotions and feelings were built up inside cause
I had been taught to ignore them my whole life and they just sort of burst
out from all the long hours and a lot of other things.
And so I just started crying and then they brought me out to this house
that was out on this ranch. And it was actually a nice house. It was a
lot better than the place Lisa had to stay. I mean Lisa was in a small
hotel room but I stayed in this ranch house. It had a kitchen and I was
allowed to walk around outside. And the first step, of course, is to get
the person to rest and relax and I had insomnia and so that was tough
for me the first three or four days, I just couldnt sleep. Eventually
I was actually able to sleep and I started to get some of that rundown.
Now, from what I heard about what happened to Lisa she actually was never
. . . she never got to that point where she was able to sleep or actually
get enough sleep. And so I dont think she actually did any of the
further steps to the rundown. I think she was just kept in a room and
told, Get some sleep. I didnt study it really, really
close but Im under the impression thats what happened to her.
But for me I actually did get some sleep, which was great cause
I had insomnia and Id also been working so many hours that my sleep
cycle was messed up. So getting some sleep actually made me feel better,
just that alone. And then the first step I was read this list that the
case supervisor put together of points of introspection or points of introversion.
And I had to look up the definition of introversion and I had to look
up the definition of introspection. And my counsellor had me do little
demonstrations with paper clips and stuff to make sure she understood
that I understood what it meant. And then we talked over these points.
And I didnt feel that anything had improved in my life mentally
from having been told these points because they didnt make any sense
to me that thats what was going on with me. To me I was in pain
and I wanted help with that. I wanted some medical care. I wanted to see
a doctor. I wanted to see somebody that would help me with the pain in
But they were more concerned with the two points that I had written in
a recent report about the long hours that I was working and about how
I felt that some of David Miscavages management decisions were incorrect.
And I was basically complaining a lot about my work conditions. And so
some of these had been put on the list as my points of introversion and
that sort of upset me.
OK. Now the difference then it seems to me you were reasonably cooperative
with your handlers at the time.
Yeah, I wasnt really . . . At the time I wasnt really feeling
like I was being held against my will. It wasnt until later that
I was held against my will. At this point in December 1995, my first introspection
rundown, I wasnt really particularly being held against my will.
OK. Thats the difference between Lisa then because Lisa pretty much
fought the whole time.
She was, coincidentally in November, late November of 95 that she
Yeah. Yeah that is a strange coincidence. But I have a feeling that possibly
I was treated better than her because of her, because of what happened
to her, you know.
Yeah. Possibly, yeah. I would assume that her case, as you said, had to
go up above the case supervisor to some higher person to decide to put
her in isolation in the first place as well then.
Right. Also I dont think I was as distressed as she was. You know
I wasnt taking my clothes off and walking down the street or anything
like that. I was just having difficulty sleeping. I was crying a lot and
writing notes a lot and that was sort of what I was going through.
OK. How long does this take, by the way, from the time you get your start
till the time you end this process?
Well, my whole first introspection rundown took about a month; less than
OK. And it was all at the same place, the same location?
But I finished the whole thing and I felt worse after that, because, like
I said, I wasnt that distressed to begin with. But after I did all
these steps I was more distressed. And thats when I got put in isolation
and was having people watch me more.
OK, but that was after this time?
Yeah, after the first rundown I got more distressed and I was put under
guard at that point.
OK, so the first one you kind of graduated from.
Yeah, I thought Id graduated from it.
Yeah, OK, so then they put you back in?
Second time, lets say, but this time youre sort of angry at
Not as cooperative?
Right, cause I couldnt understand what was going on. I thought,
well I did the rundown. I did the steps they asked me to do. I didnt
like them. They didnt make any sense to me. I got in arguments with
the counsellor on them, because some of these steps were more introspective
because they ask you to list out your intentions. They try to find evil
intentions and then audit them out. And so it was being implied by that
that my sort of a breakdown was not because I wasnt getting enough
sleep or because I was being mistreated as a staff member. It was, in
fact, because I had evil intentions, and I didnt like that. I didnt
think that was right. I felt that I was being abused and mistreated as
a staff member and thats why I had a breakdown, and that the people
who needed to change were my seniors and management in relationship to
my work assignments and pushing me to work so hard with no sleep. Yet,
and also being denied medical care when I needed it. And that was my argument
but their argument, the case supervisors argument was that I got
upset and I got introverted because of my evil intentions.
And if you read the rundown, the bulletin that was written in 23 January,
1974, after the initial steps of the rundown, which are supposed to help
get the person more in present time and quit introverting then they continue
the rundown by checking for intentions, listing for intentions. You word
these points of introversion as an intention and then you list out what
was . . . you audit out that intention in the person in different flows
and how they maybe saw it in others or seeing it between two other people
or in how they themselves had that intention.
And so thats what it boiled down to and I didnt . . . this
made no sense to me at all. So after the rundown I was not sent back to
my post, which I thought would happen. What happened was I got placed
on the deck project force and I had somebody watching me and I had to
do work assignments separate from the rest of the crew and I was told
that I was going to get more counseling but I had to wait. And so I did
six months of just doing gardening and taking care of trees. But I was
being treated like I was some kind of a criminal because I couldnt
go anywhere on the property. I was back at the main international headquarters
base at Golden Era Productions in Hemet. And I was doing the gardening
and stuff like that but I wasnt with the rest of the crew. I had
to eat by myself. I had living quarters, I had to stay by myself but somebody
was always watching me. And then in June I was put on the rundown again.
I had to do some of the steps over on the introspection rundown and so
I had to redo some of these steps. That upset me even more because the
steps were . . . Ill tell you one of the steps.
Theres a step where youre supposed to find out one of the
thing that the persons got their attention fixated on and then you
have to do these mental drills to get them to unfix their attention on
this thing. And so one of the things my attention was fixated on was on
my body cause I couldnt understand why I was in so much pain
and what was going on. And so they wanted me to put . . . the counsellor
wanted me to put my attention on my body then put my attention off my
body. And so Im mentally thinking, well, why? How is it wrong for
me to be worried about my body? I mean its in pain. Somethings
wrong. I need to fix it. Why do I have to ignore that? I mean, cant
they just send me to a doctor and help me figure out whats wrong?
I mean I had three herniated disks in my neck and I had no idea that
my disks were herniated. I just thought, well my neck hurts and I have
no idea what this is. If this is a, you know, a dianetics engram or something
like that that needs to be run out then why dont they just run it
out because it was driving me nuts? But you know I still could never figure
out what was going on. Also I had to keep doing this manual labor despite
the fact that my spine was injured. I was doing this manual labor and
it was really . . . I dont know . . . it was a bad experience.
So then I basically got more of that and I stopped eating. I just went
on this thing where I just was eating carrots. I dont know why I
chose that. I mean maybe I thought, well carrots are good for me and thats
one of the things Im not allergic to. Cause I was having trouble
with food allergies at the same time as all this was going on. So I just
started eating carrots and I got this protein deficiency. And I was losing
all this weight and I couldnt sleep. I couldnt eat solid foods
anymore and I thought I was going to die.
So I walked up to somebody out there. I was doing gardening all by myself
out on the northwest corner of the property cause I wasnt
allowed to mingle with any of the other staff members or work with them.
So I was sort of on my own and I thought well I could just die out here
and nobody would notice. You know so I had to really force myself even
though I had very little energy. Im going to walk up to somebody
and say, Look, you know I need some help cause I think Im
going to die out here. I mean I havent been eating. I cant
eat solid foods any more. I tried it and I threw up. Finally somebody
said, OK. Lets get her back out to this other place, the house
at the ranch, cause she was doing better out there.
Oh wait; let me back up a little bit. When I was at the Gold Base doing
gardening and stuff and I was put on my second introspection rundown the
restraints were a lot worse. I mean I was behind a chain link fence with
razor wire around it and the guards that were watching me were security
guards that were armed. Even though they never actually personally threatened
me with a gun or anything like that I found it very intimidating and it
caused me a lot of anxiety. I thought, why am I being treated like this
after all my years of dedicated work to scientology? Why am I being treated
like a criminal because I have done nothing wrong?
But at that time you were more uncooperative though; the second time though,
Um, the second time?
Uncooperative, you mean in what way?
In saying, Well, I dont want to do this or you just did it
OK, well, you cant do the rundown unless youve had enough
sleep and enough food. So the fact that I stopped eating and sleeping,
yes, that was uncooperative. It was probably exactly what was going on
with . . . one of the things that was going on with Lisa. You know she
wasnt sleeping or eating and thats what happened to me. I
just stopped sleeping or eating. I didnt feel that I was doing it
intentionally to particularly avoid doing the rundown. I just was so distressed
with how I was being treated, with being guarded by security guards, not
being allowed to see my husband or my sister or any of my friends; being
basically treated like I was a criminal. And so that distressed me and
I stopped eating and I couldnt sleep and I needed to be treated
better. That was the only thing that would have cheered me up but the
rundown was what they were trying to do on me.
Yeah. Just a second, looks like our chat broke, which I dont know
how to fix, so Im sorry about that. People want to call in with
a question, its 347-215-8957. Were talking with Maureen Bolstad.
The topic is the introspection rundown, which is the Church of Scientologys
response to psychiatry and the hope for the replacement of psychiatry,
so when people go psychotic in the Church of Scientology they put you
in isolation and try to run this process on you. The way I understand
it is youre supposed to figure out why you went crazy and then thats
Is that kind of it? Yeah. So that was the goal of this process. Lisa McPherson
. . .
Oh and they use the e-meter. They try to use the e-meter to help guide
OK. The first I ever heard of this was about a year and a half after Lisa
died. It came up, I believe, from the police investigation. Id never
heard of the introspection rundown before that. So to me, I always relate
it to someone being held against their will in a room and fighting to
get out but in your case it kind of shows its not necessarily that
that has to happen so long as the person is cooperating . . .
. . . to a degree.
So actually in Lisas case it was that she refused to go the next
step, which was to get sleep and eat and start cooperating. Would that
be a good way to look at it?
Yeah, and I guess they just kept her in the room and didnt change
anything they were doing to get to the bottom of why she wasnt cooperating.
I mean I actually got treated better when I stopped cooperating and I
was about to . . . I mean I felt I was going to die from starvation but
I dont know if I really would have. I got treated better. I got
taken to a different nicer place and the people around me werent
in uniforms. They were friendly. They made protein shakes for me and took
me for walks without a fence around me and I felt intimidated and less
harassed and so I calmed down and I was actually able to eat and sleep.
But then at that point . . . you want me to just keep telling my story
. . . I mean its really long. I spent four or five years doing various
different attempts at this rundown and things in between.
Oh wow. Well, I dont think we can compress five years into . . .
Right. Well I mean cause basically you know I couldnt do the
rundown because I couldnt sleep or eat during it and then they put
me on a different rundown. They wanted me to do the rehabilitation project
force and I tried to do that for a year.
So they tried to build you up so you could do the introspection rundown?
I guess, I dont know I mean I . . . Maybe they figured I was OK,
you know, after I started using . . . you know I was good enough for the
RPF but then when I ran away from the RPF I got put back on the introspection
rundown stuff later.
OK. So the third time was it the worst of the three I guess?
Not for me because basically I was, like, how can this rundown help anybody?
And it made me lose faith in scientology and I made the decision that
I didnt really want to be involved anymore, so for me it was actually
a wakeup call and I decided that I didnt want to be on staff anymore
and they eventually let me go. I mean it took a long time for me to get
out of there and there were a lot of attempts to salvage me and get me
to stay, that rundown being one of them. But it didnt work and I
could see clearly that my whole reason for getting involved in scientology
was to improve psychiatry and psychology cause Id seen how
poorly my mother was treated by psychiatrists and I thought there had
to be a better answer. And I was told when I joined, Oh scientology
has a better answer. And here I was, you know, being intolerably
stressed and needing help and this answer was making me feel that worse.
And I thought, how could this be? How could . . . Ive been working
this hard since I thought supposedly scientology had all the answers to
psychiatry and they dont.
When you were on . . . in Lisas case, which makes me think now that
she really didnt get far enough to be on the introspection part
of it, cause she fought all the time . . .
Yeah, it sounds like she was just on the first step. Youre supposed
to just isolate the person with all attendants completely muzzled and
give them vitamins until the break stops.
So when you were in the isolation part kind of not cooperating what kind
of treatment did you get and did people check on you a lot to make sure
There was always somebody watching me. There was either . . . I mean even
sometimes even in my room with me, which really annoyed me cause
I had trouble sleeping and if someone was there snoring or whatever I
couldnt sleep. But there was always somebody watching me or guarding
me. I couldnt go anywhere by myself.
OK. So if you were in physical distress they would have known, in other
No, I mean, I was saying that I was in pain. Thats what Id
been saying since December 1995 and nobody would let me go see a doctor.
I mean, I didnt have enough money to go see a doctor on my own.
I had to get permission. I had to say, Look, please, take me to
a doctor and pay for it. And I couldnt get that from them.
I was told, No. You dont need to see a doctor. The problem
is your case. The problem is in your head. And thats what
the argument was and so whenever I asked for that, whenever I said, Listen,
I dont want to do this manual labor anymore. I dont feel like
eating. Even if I was throwing up my food it was because of me and
my case. It wasnt because of there anything physically wrong with
me but there was something physically wrong with me. And I think that
there was something wrong physically with Lisa and so whatever reason
the people attending her were told, Oh, shes crazy.
So therefore when she was acting like she was stressed out and distressed
they had an answer. They didnt have to find out what was wrong.
They were like, Oh, shes crazy. You know. And that was
the same thing that was going on for me. I had a really hard time communicating
with the people around me and getting the help that I needed because they
already seemed to know what was wrong with me.
So, yeah. Theres a quote by Hubbard.
While youre looking that up, I have one question for you, Maureen
When you were on Gold Base over there did you ever once see anybody who
received any medical training on that facility? Is there a nurse or anybody
or is there even a . . . I mean I know its a pretty big place. Is
there any kind of medical facilities there at all?
They have first aid kits. They have three people . . . they had . . .
well when I was there they had three people who were trained as nurses.
Their certificates were not kept up to date but they did have initial
training as nurses. Also, some of the security guards apparently did some
paramedic training. I dont really know to what extent. I mean they
were capable of dealing with emergencies that were obvious like a broken
bone or someone, you know, cut themselves or something like that. But
if the ache or pain is not clearly obvious, you know, what source thats
from, they werent set up to do those kinds of tests. You know for
example one day I was having chest pains and I had to get taken out into
town to see a heart specialist to get my heart tested to see what was
going on there. And they did take me to that, the first time I complained
of chest pains, you know, and I did get some help with that. But when
I was complaining of pain in my neck and my spine thats when things
kind of broke down at that point for me.
Yeah, I think thats throughout scientology they rely on their own
processes more than medicine, and of course, they dont believe in
psychiatry at all so they try to handle that, too . . .
. . . without much training and, I think, much skill. Heres the
Hubbard quote I was looking for, which is HCOB policy, 24 November 1965.
He says . . . Hes talking about PTS type three, which is basically
a psychotic person. He says, . . . but there will always be some
failures (about the treatment) as the insane sometimes withdraw into rigid
unawareness as a final defense, sometimes cant be kept alive and
sometimes are too hectic and distraught to ever become quiet. So
hes saying that theres going to be failures even up to death
in this process of how they handle type three. I mean hes flat out
saying that himself, which is amazing to me.
I think thats what happened in Lisas case. They just kept
saying, Well, weve got to get her up to the point where we
can start processing her and she kept not cooperating until the very end,
you know. And shes thirty-six years old, in good health and then
after they have her in isolation shes dead.
Yeah, its tragic.
Thats a scary thing. Thats the thing to me: scientology does
things that theyre not really prepared or skilled to do and claim
that theyre the ones that are the smartest. Like Tom Cruise said,
you know, Were the ones, when we come upon a car accident,
were the ones that know what to do.
Its that that gets them in trouble and gets their members in much
distress as you were in as well.
Right. There was a point where I was being held against my will. It was
in . . . around February 1997. I said, Look, I dont want to
be on staff any more. I dont want to do the RPF program. Please,
let me go. And they wouldnt let me go. And I tried to walk
away and I was tackled. I tried to walk away on three different occasions.
I was tackled each time by larger men, you know, larger than me I mean.
And I continued to try to get away.
I finally did get away at the end of 1997 and I was talked into coming
back. I was told, Look, were sorry for everything we did wrong
toward you. Well change. Come back and well be nice to you
and well let you see your husband and well let you see your
sister. And you know I was just dumb and I went back and I ended
up getting stuck there for another three years. During that time I tried
to jump over the fence and walk away. I didnt get out of there,
basically, until much later in 2000.
So as far as getting my head straightened out I actually had to see a
psychologist later when I got out of scientology. Cause I was still
having trouble with eating disorders and having problems sleeping. And
I saw a psychologist for that, so I was able to deal with that.
So the outside world was better to handle your problems than scientology?
Absolutely, and its really ironic, too, because, my psychologist
told me that a lot of the distress that was going on with me had to do
because I was in pain. Like I had seven herniated disks in my spine from
work related injuries and I wasnt getting treated for it. I wasnt
getting the anti-inflammatories or pain killers or the physical therapy
or decompression that I needed. And so that pain was just building up
and making my life miserable. And so, yeah, I had some other things going
on with me in my life that resulted in eating disorders as well but basically
when I did actually go see a spinal specialist and get some treatment
for the injuries in my spine, thats when I started feeling happier
and more sane, when I was able to address that.
Yeah. Let me just . . . so I dont run out of time anyway . . . Im
going to read what scientology calls their [i[General Release Regarding
Spiritual Assistance[/i], which has a copyright of 2001. Ill just
read two little parts about it. This basically is just a cover for them,
to me. Im not a lawyer but it looks like, to me, just to specifically
refer to the introspection rundown. So Ill quote here, I understand
that the introspection rundown is an intensive rigorous religious service
that includes being isolated from all sources of potential spiritual upset
including but not limited to family members, friends or others with whom
I might normally interact. And a little farther down it says, I
further specifically acknowledge that the duration of any such isolation
is uncertain, determined only by my spiritual condition but that such
duration will be completely at the discretion of the case supervisor.
Now theres a little part in there, I further specifically acknowledge
that the duration is determined by spiritual condition, not physical condition.
It doesnt even mention physical condition in here. So that seems
to me that the case supervisor is not even as concerned about your physical
condition as your spiritual condition or the way he sees your case.
You know, so that just kind of blows my mind . . .
. . . how all this worked out. Did you see other people? I think you,
at the beginning; you said you saw another person on the introspection
Yeah, I saw several people that did the introspection rundown. I mean
they seemed to improve. I didnt really see the way they were before
they started it. So you know it didnt seem to bother them as much
as it bothered me.
OK. When you left scientology . . . I just want to make sure I get all
my questions. Well weve got about ten minutes yet. When you left
scientology what was the thing that helped you the most kind of to go
back into the outside world, lets say, to fit in?
I think really, the thing that really helped me the most was making friends
with non scientologists who seemed to have a great deal of compassion
towards me. And I think compassion was really missing in the last few
years that I was in scientology. So getting that from people Id
just met was amazing. Plus, I found a psychologist who was really good
at dealing with people with eating disorders and she really was . . .
I mean I had two or three sessions with her and I felt better, and I felt
happier, and I felt, Oh! That was what was going on. And that
was sort of what I wanted in scientology. Thats what I was sort
of expecting when I tried to do my scientology auditing. But in scientology,
Hubbard felt that psychosis had to do with evil intentions. The problem
is that they dont define, evil. Its sort of left
up to whoevers in charge to explain to you what evil is, or decide
what an evil intention is.
For example a staff member wanting to have a child, in the sea organization
or on staff for scientology, was considered evil as it was against the
rules. But, to me, its not evil to want to have children. And so
to be in a group that thinks its evil is going to put them in a
conflict and make them stressed out. And you cant run that out.
You cant say, Oh, thats an evil intention. Lets
get rid of it. I mean you can change your mind about it, sure. But
in scientology they think that your intentions are somehow ingrained in
your reactive mind and they can cure you of them using the e-meter. They
dont think of you as a human being who can change your mind, you
know, based on being reasoned with or whatever.
Yeah. When you were in, just coincidentally you were in the rundown the
same time as Lisa McPherson. I assume the first time you heard of her
was after you left the church?
Or when did you hear about her case?
I heard about Lisa McPherson in . . . Lets see. When did I hear
about her? Probably around 2004, 2005.
Yeah. It was a while before I read her story.
When you learned more about her case . . . I mean to me I think hers is
the most documented case like this throughout the history of the church.
It went through court. You know the court got some documentation out of
the church that Im sure they didnt want to release.
And its pretty clear what happened to her from the notes that the
people who were caring for her made, from the testimony that came out
and the police investigation and all those things. So from studying her
case what does that make you think of the introspection rundown that maybe
you hadnt thought of before or whatever?
You know I havent studied the whole thing, like in full but I can
say from what I did study I think that this step of isolating people is
wrong, especially if theres no medical professional involved and
if its totally determined by scientology staff members, especially
if the person may not want to be involved in scientology any more. Like
me for example, I decided I didnt want to be involved in scientology
in the middle of 1997 and yet I was kept on their compound for years after
that. So at that point when a person says, I dont want to
be in scientology anymore, they should be able to get rid of that
agreement theyve made to be giving scientologists the right to isolate
But thats not the case. I mean once you sign that waiver and youre
on the scientology compound they seem to think they have a right to keep
you even if youre not cooperating.
Yeah, in Lisas case, I think its pretty clear that she was
planning to go back home to Dallas from Clearwater and maybe not leave
scientology altogether but start a different kind of life. Her best friend
that she had a phone call with not long before she died mentioned that
and then Michael Pattinson has recently said that thats what she
said to him as well. So I think thats the case also where she was
saying, or planning at least, to leave her situation and then was prevented
You know the thing about scientology that I keep being a critic about
is they hurt people. I mean they have this notion that theyre smarter
than everybody else. Theyre smarter than psychiatrists. Theyre
smarter than doctors. And yet the results demonstrate that they dont
know what theyre doing even just superficially. I think in Lisas
case, too, it was the things that they were feeding her were actually
hurting her, so they didnt even know how to feed her correctly.
Yes. She wasnt being fed properly. She shouldnt have been
there at all. She shouldnt have been in that environment where she
was so stressed out. I mean being kept in a hotel room without any way
of like going for a walk or as far as I know they didnt even have
any books or TV in there either. I mean that would be just, I mean someone
could just die from sheer boredom, being stuck in a plain room like that.
Well, she was breaking a lot of things. So, you know, they had trouble
with her from the beginning. I think she . . . thats the main difference
I can see between her case and your case is that she was, from the moment
they took her there, uncooperative to the extreme.
You know, she didnt want to eat. She spit up on them; spit her food
at them. Shed break things in the room, you know, on and on and
that I think is the main difference there.
But I think fortunately the results were at least better in your case.
Yeah. Im glad Im alive. I mean there were times when I got
stressed out and I was throwing things at people and spitting up my food
but I at least got away from it. I wasnt kept in a room and kept
at with . . . I mean the people who were antagonizing me didnt keep
antagonizing me, you know.
Correct, yeah. DB, do you have any other questions?
No. Im good.
OK. I covered most of what I wrote down, I think. Thats pretty good.
Yeah, so I think the main thing that I want to get people to understand
today is that this is something that scientology has done from the beginning.
Theyve held people in isolation thinking they can run these wacko
processes on them to make them better, when all they maybe needed was
like Maureen you just said was helped with a food disorder and somebody
that knows what theyre doing helps you quickly. And yet scientology
thinks that theyre better, and no, theyre going to keep you
from these other people because theyre evil and well
run these wacko processes on you instead. I mean thats the
thing that just drives me crazy because it hurts people and its
just non-logical, you know.
Right. I mean, the last rundown, the last attempt at the rundown, I was
actually feeling suicidal. I mean I wasnt feeling like, Oh,
Im going to kill myself, but I sort of lost my will to live.
I just didnt want to eat or anything because the counseling had
led me to believe that I was just evil, that I had all these evil intentions
and that was behind all of my problems. And so . . . and scientology didnt
help me with any of those; such a horrible case and I was somehow a suppressive
and I was badly influencing the people around me. And Im like (sigh)
Im just a really horrible person so why should I even be alive,
And that was sort of the state of mind that this type of counseling got
me into. That all the pain I was in and all the troubles I was having
around me were not because of scientology or because that the rundown
was wrong or that the people administering it were doing it wrong. It
was because I was a bad person.
And you know that was the problem that I had and it wasnt their
problem at all.
Yeah. The tech is pure so its got to be your fault.
And so it was good for me to finally get out of there and actually get
into the real world, where you know, most of my friends and family think
Im a pretty cool person.
Yeah, good deal. Well congratulations and welcome back to the real world.
And I guess weve got about thirty seconds or something to go.
Maureen Bolstad, I want to thank you for today and for clearing up information
about the introspection rundown, scientologys answer to psychiatry,
which apparently fails almost every time they use it, so. Thank everybody
for listening today. I dont know when the next show will be. Itll
just be whenever it works out and that we need one. Also I hope someone
else likes blog talk radio and stared their own show cause I think
its a pretty useful tool. So anything else, Maureen before you leave
OK. Well, thanks very much for being the guest today.
Well see the rest of you all later on. Thanks for tuning in and
talk to you later.
Tom Cruise (taped with music)
Is that an SP? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!