Q. DID YOU CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION, MR. MISCAVIGE, TO DETERMINE WHETHER MR. BROKER HAD BEEN IN CONTACT WITH MR. HUBBARD?
MR. HERTZBERG: ALL RIGHT.
MS. PLEVIN: WILL YOU JUST REPEAT YOUR OBJECTIONS, MR. HERTZBERG. FOR THE RECORD, I'M MAKING MY RECORD, OKAY?
MR. HERTZBERG: I WANT TO MAKE MY RECORD THE WAY I WANT TO MAKE IT AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU FOR THIS QUESTION, BEFORE I INSTRUCT. ARE YOU GOING TO ADD ANYTHING TO YOUR RATIONALE FOR ASKING THIS QUESTION, THAT YOU HAVEN'T SAID ALREADY? MS. PLEVIN: I'VE GIVEN YOU MY RATIONALE PREVIOUSLY IN THIS DEPOSITION AND IN OTHERS. I'M NOT GOING TO REPEAT IT.
MR. HERTZBERG: SAME INSTRUCTION.
THE WITNESS: ONE SECOND, PLEASE.
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
MR. HERTZBERG: COULD WE HAVE THE QUESTION READ BACK, PLEASE.
(RECORD READ.)
THE WITNESS: OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
MS. PLEVIN: INSTRUCTION NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. HERTZBERG: YES, SUBJECT TO MY HAVING INQUIRED WHETHER YOU HAD PROFFERED ANY FURTHER RATIONALE.
MS. PLEVIN: ALL RIGHT.
Q. YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE SEA ORG?
A. YES, I AM.
Q. DO YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC RANK IN THE SEA ORG?
A. YES, I DO.
Q. WHAT IS THAT?
A. CAPTAIN.
Q. WHAT IS THE HIGHEST RANK IN THE SEA ORG?
A. COMMODORE.
Q. COMMODORE IS HIGHER THAN CAPTAIN?
A. OF COURSE.
Q. IS THERE ANYONE OTHER THAN YOURSELF WHO IS A CAPTAIN?
A. YES.
Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE?
A. TWO DOZEN OR SO, THEREABOUTS, MAYBE LESS; THEREABOUTS THOUGH.
Q. WHO --
A. OH, EXCUSE ME. EXCUSE ME. NO, I'D SAY ABOUT MAYBE TEN. I'M SORRY, ABOUT THAT.
Q. OKAY.
A. I'M SORRY.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO, IN APRIL OF 1988, HAD THE HIGHEST POSITION IN -- ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO CURRENTLY HAVE -- THE SAME TEN PEOPLE, APPROXIMATELY, WHO CURRENTLY HAVE THE RANK OF CAPTAIN, HAD RANK OF CAPTAIN IN APRIL 1988, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE? MR. DRESCHER: WHILE THE WITNESS IS THINKING, I'LL OBSERVE THIS IS ALL VERY INTERESTING, BUT IT'S UTTERLY IRRELEVANT.
MR. HELLER: I'LL JOIN IN THAT.
MS. PLEVIN: SO NOTED.
MR. HERTZBERG: I JOIN IN IT, BUT YOU MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION, IF YOU KNOW.
THE WITNESS: I THINK SO, BUT MAYBE -- MAYBE SOME HAVE CHANGED. I THINK SO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. AMONG THOSE TEN, ARE THERE ANY WHO ARE SENIOR TO OTHERS?
A. BY VIRTUE OF CAPTAIN?
Q. BY VIRTUE OF -- WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
A. YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT CAPTAINS?
Q. YES. AMONG THOSE TEN.
A. THEY'RE ALL CAPTAINS SO IT'S EQUAL; IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN?
Q. YES. THEY'RE ALL EQUAL, BUT ARE THERE ANY THAT HAVE SENIOR STATUS?
A. WITH RANK?
Q. NO, IN FUNCTION, IN ZONE OF RESPONSIBILITY.
A. CAPTAIN DOESN'T NECESSARILY EQUATE TO FUNCTION. MIND YOU, IT CAN --
Q. OKAY.
A. -- JUST SO I'M CLEAR THERE, BUT IT ISN'T AN ABSOLUTE.
Q. OKAY.
A. OKAY.
Q. IN THE FUNCTION OF THE SEA ORG AND THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE SEA ORG, WERE THERE ANY OF THOSE TEN, IN 1988, W;40 HAD GREATER AUTHORITY THAN ANY OF THE OTHERS?
A. IN REFERENCE TO THE SEA ORG?
Q. YES.
A. YOU'RE MISSTATING IT. I MEAN --
MR. HELLER: DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT?
THE WITNESS: NO.
MR. HELLER: ALL RIGHT. THEN THAT'S YOUR ANSWER, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE REASON I WANT --
MS. PLEVIN: HOW MANY ATTORNEYS DOES MR. MISCAVIGE HAVE?
MR. HELLER: I'M HERE AS AN ATTORNEY FOR TWO PARTIES. I CAN MAKE ANY OBJECTION I WANT. NOW, PLEASE DON'T INTERRUPT ME AGAIN.
MS. PLEVIN: IN TERMS OF INSTRUCTING MR. MISCAVIGE --
MR. HELLER: I AM NOT --
MS. PLEVIN: YOU'RE --
MR. HELLER: WHAT I'M SAYING IS THE FOLLOWING: I'M OBSERVING -- USUALLY MR. HERTZBERG OBSERVES -- THIS TIME I'M OBSERVING -24 THAT MR. MISCAVIGE WAS STRUGGLING WITH THIS AND TIME [HAD PASSED. I WANTED TO LET HIM KNOW, BECAUSE THIS INSTRUCTION WASN'T GIVEN BY YOU WHEN YOU GAVE YOUR ADMONITIONS IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND A QUESTION, IT'S PERFECTLY FINE TO SAY, "I DON'T UNDERSTAND." I'M SURE, MISS PLEVIN, YOU'D BE HAPPY TO REPEAT IT.
MS. PLEVIN: ABSOLUTELY.
MR. HELLER: FINE. LET'S PROCEED.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DID YOU EVER HEAR OF THE CONCEPT OF FIRST AMONG EQUALS? MR. HELLER: OBJECTION. RELEVANCE.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I'M REFERRING TO IF I SAID THAT AMONG VARIOUS MINISTERS, THERE'S A FIRST AMONG EQUALS, A PRIME MINISTER -(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
THE WITNESS: NO, I HAVEN'T.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S FINE. THAT'S FINE. OKAY. THIS MORNING WE WERE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT POSITIONS YOU HAD CHRONOLOGICALLY. A. UH-HUH.
Q. WE GOT TO A POINT, OH, IN '81 OR SO, AND I ASKED WHAT WAS THE CORPORATE OR POST POSITION YOU NEXT TOOK. I'D LIKE TO ASK FROM THAT BASIS, IN 1981, IF YOU RECALL, WHAT WERE THE POSITIONS YOU HAD IN A CORPORATION OR ORGANIZATION OF SCIENTOLOGY. A. IN 1981?
Q. CORRECT.
A. I THINK I ANSWERED THIS.
MR. DRESCHER: THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED FOR THAT YEAR.
MS. PLEVIN: I DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE WENT ALL THROUGH 1981. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THERE'S NOTHING THAT'S OVERLOOKED.
Q. IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU DID NOT MENTION WITH RESPECT TO 1981, BECAUSE AS OF THAT TIME, YOU DID NOT INDICATE ANY CORPORATE RESPONSIBILITY OR POSITION OF ANY KIND WITH ASI OR RTC AND THAT'S WHAT I'M MOVING TOWARDS AND I WANT TO MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR. IT'S NOT A GAME.
A. THAT'S A SIMPLE ANSWER. ASI AND RTC DIDN'T EXIST. DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?
Q. THROUGH THE END OF 1981, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. RIGHT.
Q. NOW, STARTING IN 1982 -- WELL, AT THE END -- AT THE END OF -- I'M SORRY -- AT THE END OF 1981, WHAT WERE THE POSITIONS YOU HAD? A. AT THE END OF 1981?
Q. YES. WAS THAT WHEN YOU WERE CHIEF OFFICER OFFICER, CMO INT?
A. NO. I BELIEVE THAT WAS WHEN I WAS SPECIAL PROJECTS OPS.
Q. LET'S START FROM THERE. HOW LONG DID YOU CONTINUE WITH SPECIAL PROJECT OPS BEYOND '81, IF AT ALL?
A. AT THAT TIME?
Q. YES.
A. AT THAT TIME, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE A MONTH, MAYBE IT WAS TWO MONTHS, BUT CALL IT A FEW MONTHS. THAT WOULD BE IN THE BALLPARK.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHAT WAS THE NEXT POST OR CORPORATE POSITION YOU HELD OF ANY KIND?
MR. HERTZBERG: DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT TIME FRAME SHE'S TALKING ABOUT?
THE WITNESS: IN 1982.
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
THE WITNESS: I WORKED AT ASI.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. WHAT WAS YOUR POST OR POSITION THERE?
A. IT STARTED -- CEO.
Q. TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WERE YOU THE FIRST CEO?
A. YES.
Q. ARE YOU STILL CEO OF ASI?
A. NO.
Q. WERE YOU CONTINUOUSLY CEO FROM 1982 UNTIL SOME PERIOD, TO SOME DATE, OR WERE YOU ON AND OFF?
A. NO, I WASN'T ON AND OFF EITHER.
Q. OKAY. YOU WERE -- 1982 UNTIL WHEN WERE YOU CEO?
A. SOMETIME LATER IN 1982.
Q. DID YOU CONTINUE TO HAVE SOME POSITION WITH ASI AFTER YOU CEASED BEING CEO?
A. YES.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THAT?
A. COB.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ASI NOW?
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. WHEN DID YOU CEASE BEING CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ASI?
A, 1987.
Q, DID YOU HOLD ANY OTHER POSITIONS AT ASI OTHER THAN CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD BETWEEN 1982 AND 1987?
A. NO.
Q. HOW MANY BOARD MEMBERS ARE THERE AT ASI?
MR. HERTZBERG: WELL, WHAT, YOU MEAN NOW?
MS. PLEVIN: WELL, IF IT'S CHANGED.
Q. HOW MANY BOARD MEMBERS WERE THERE IN 1982?
MR. HERTZBERG: NOW, YOU WANT -- OKAY. SHE WANTS TO KNOW HOW MANY BOARD MEMBERS IF YOU RECALL --
THE WITNESS: I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY THERE WERE IN 1987?
A. I'D HAVE TO GUESS.
MR. HELLER: DON'T GUESS.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. HOW FREQUENTLY DID THE BOARD OF MEET DURING THAT PERIOD BETWEEN 1982 AND 19877
MR. HERTZBERG: WHAT IS THE QUESTION, PLEASE?
MS. PLEVIN: HOW FREQUENTLY DID THE BOARD MEET.
MR. HERTZBERG: I'M GOING TO LET HIM ANSWER IF HE CAN RECALL, AND I JUST WILL NOTE AGAIN I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THE FREQUENCY OF THE MEETINGS OF THE ASI BOARD ALMOST TEN YEARS AGO HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE COMPLAINT BY MR. CORYDON IN THIS CASE. BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. CAN YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION?
MR. HELLER: AND ON BEHALF OF ASI, I'LL JOIN IN THE OBJECTION.
THE WITNESS: A LOT.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. OKAY. AND IF YOU CAN, PLEASE, WHO WERE YOUR OTHER BOARD MEMBERS IN 1982?
A. AT THE TIME, I DON'T EXACTLY RECALL, BUT I THINK BARBARA DESELLE AND -- YOU SAID 1982?
Q. YES.
A. I DON'T RECALL THAT. I'M SORRY.
Q. OKAY. 19837
A. THAT'S WHAT I REMEMBER -- I COULDN'T TELL YOU BY YEAR. I KNOW BARBARA DESELLE WAS AT ONE POINT, JOHN ALCOCK. THOSE ARE THE ONES I RECALL WITH CERTAINTY.
Q. TERRY GAMBOA?
A. MAYBE.
Q. JOHN TINKENBERG?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT IS.
Q. HOMER SHOMER?
A. I DON'T RECALL IF HE WAS A BOARD MEMBER.
Q. WHEN YOU SAID YOU WERE CEO ORIGINALLY, FOR THE RECORD, THAT MEANT YOU WERE BOTH CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD AND PRESIDENT; IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A. NO, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT.
Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN, PLEASE?
A. IT MEANS I WAS -- IT MEANS I WAS CEO AND --
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
MR. HELLER: YOU MEAN WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR, CEO?
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. IT STANDS FOR CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, DOES IT NOT?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WERE YOU ON THE BOARD AS CEO? IS THAT ONE OF YOUR FUNCTIONS TO BE ON BOARD?
MR. DRESCHER: I MISUNDERSTOOD THE QUESTION I GUESS.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. WAS ONE OF YOUR FUNCTIONS AS CEO, TO BE ON THE BOARD?
A. AS CEO, I DON'T RECALL.
Q. WHO WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT OF ASI?
A. I'D HAVE TO GUESS.
Q. CAN YOU RECALL THE NAMES OF ANY OF THE PRESIDENTS WHILE YOU WERE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD?
A. SURE.
Q. WHO?
A. DAVID MISCAVIGE.
Q. ANYBODY BUT YOURSELF?
A. I THINK NORMAN STARKEY.
Q. ANYBODY ELSE?
A. I CAN'T RECALL. NOT TO SAY THAT THERE ISN'T. THAT'S WHO I RECALL.
Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT JAMES ISACSON?
MR. HELLER: WELL, THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT IT APPEARS THAT MISS PLEVIN IS READING FROM DISCOVERY RESPONSES WHICH ASI HAS PROVIDED HER WITH AND I HAVEN'T THE FOGGIEST NOTION WHY YOU'RE DOING THIS AT THIS DEPOSITION, UNLESS YOU TELL ME IT'S TO TEST, FOR SOME IRRELEVANT REASON, TO TEST THE DEPONENT'S MEMORY. AND, AS YOU KNOW, MISS PLEVIN, WE SUPPLIED YOU WITH ALL THE OFFICERS. YOU ASKED; WE GAVE IT TO YOU.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER JAMES ISACSON BEING ON THE BOARD, MR. MISCAVIGE?
MR. HERTZBERG: THIS IS REALLY -- YOU KNOW, I'LL TELL YOU. I WAS NOT AWARE -- I WAS NOT AWARE UNTIL MR. HELLER'S OBSERVATION JUST NOW, THAT, IN FACT, A, THAT INFORMATION HAD BEEN FURNISHED TO MISS PLEVIN BY ANOTHER DEFENDANT IN THIS CASE, AND THAT B, MISS PLEVIN WAS READING FROM THAT.
MS. PLEVIN: I JUST --
MR. HERTZBERG: LET ME FINISH.
MS. PLEVIN: I HAVE NOT BEEN READING FROM IT UNTIL JUST BEFORE MR. HELLER SPOKE AND I FIND IT INAPPROPRIATE FOR MR. HELLER TO HAVE INTERFERED IN THAT WAY. MR. HERTZBERG: LET ME FINISH MY COMMENT, PLEASE. IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER YOU WERE READING FROM IT OR NOT, MISS PLEVIN, I NOW --
MS. PLEVIN: WHICH IS KIND OF IRRELEVANT.
MR. HERTZBERG: I NOW AM FRANKLY -- I CONSIDER THIS HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE.
MS. PLEVIN: OKAY.
MR. HERTZBERG: UNLESS --
MS. PLEVIN: SO NOTED.
MR. HERTZBERG: YES, I DO, AND THIS HIGHLIGHTS HOW WE'RE WASTING TIME. MY UNDERSTANDING NOW IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING, YOU'RE TESTING A WITNESS'S RECOLLECTION WITH WRITTEN RESPONSES THAT WERE MADE TO THE VERY QUESTIONS THAT YOU'RE ASKING FROM THE CORPORATE -COUNSEL FOR THE CORPORATION AND YOU'RE DUPLICATING THE QUESTION YOU'RE ASKING HIM AGAIN. I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT PROBATIVE VALUE OR PURPOSE THAT HAS IN THIS LITIGATION.
MR. HELLER: NOT ONLY THAT, BUT IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT THESE RESPONSES WERE GIVEN, I BELIEVE, BEFORE YOU WERE IN THE LITIGATION,
MR. HERTZBERG. AND THAT'S WHY I WANTED TO POINT OUT TO YOU THE FACT THAT THIS HAS ALL BEEN DISCOVERED ALREADY. BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. MR. MISCAVIGE, DO YOU REMEMBER THE NAMES OF ANY OF THE OTHER BOARD MEMBERS WHILE YOU WERE ON THE BOARD, OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU'VE GIVEN US SO FAR? A. MY ANSWER IS POSSIBLY YOU COULD REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION, IF YOU WANT ME TO LOOK AT THAT DOCUMENT.
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER ANY OF THE OTHER OFFICERS -- YOU'VE INDICATED WHO --
A. SAME ANSWER.
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHO WAS VICE PRESIDENT?
A. SAME ANSWER.
Q. AT ANY TIME?
A. SAME ANSWER, BUT I'M WILLING TO LOOK AT THAT DOCUMENT IF YOU'D LIKE.
MS. PLEVIN: WE DON'T NEED TO WASTE TIME WITH THAT.
MR. HELLER: NO, LET'S WASTE TIME.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DO YOU CURRENTLY HAVE ANY POSITION AT ASI?
A. NO, I DON'T.
Q. AT SOME POINT, YOU BECAME EITHER CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OR PRESIDENT OF RTC; IS THAT RIGHT?
MR. HERTZBERG: THAT'S BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED. YOU CAN ANSWER IT AGAIN.
THE WITNESS: YES.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. OKAY. AT ANY TIME HAVE YOU HAD BOTH POSITIONS?
MR. HERTZBERG: THAT'S BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED. HE TESTIFIED THAT AT ONE TIME HE HAD ONE POSITION AND HE TESTIFIED THAT AT SOME OTHER TIME HE HAD ANOTHER POSITION. IT'S BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED. MR. DRESCHER: NOT AT RTC.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I DON'T BELIEVE SO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU HAD THEM BOTH AT ANY GIVEN TIME?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. WHICH POSITION DID YOU BEGIN WITH, OR WAS YOUR FIRST POSITION WITH RTC?
A. MY FIRST POSITION?
Q. YES.
A. WITH RTC. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
Q. EMPLOYEE, STAFF, OFFICER.
A. CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD.
Q. CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD. HOW LONG DID YOU HAVE THAT POSITION?
A. SINCE 1987.
Q. UNTIL THE PRESENT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AT WHAT PERIOD OF TIME HAVE YOU BEEN PRESIDENT?
A. PRESIDENT?
Q. YES, OF RTC.
A. DID I SAY THAT, TOO?
Q. NO. I'M ASKING YOU.
A. I DON'T --
MR. HERTZBERG: ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
MS. PLEVIN: I'M SORRY. I THOUGHT YOU INDICATED YOU WERE NOT SIMULTANEOUSLY BOTH, SO I WAS CLARIFYING.
THE WITNESS: I THOUGHT YOU ASKED ME WAS I PRESIDENT AND CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD AND I SAID NO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. SO YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PRESIDENT OF RTC; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. OKAY. JUST ONE SECOND. I NEED TO SPEAK TO HIM FOR A SECOND.
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS)
THE WITNESS: I'M NOT TOTALLY SURE, BUT CERTAINLY NOT SINCE RTC HAS BEEN IN OPERATION AS AN ORGANIZATION OR A CORPORATION.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DID YOU HAVE SOME POSITION PRIOR TO ITS INCORPORATION?
A. PRIOR TO ITS INCORPORATION?
Q. YES.
A. NO.
Q. WHEN YOU SAID YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PRESIDENT SINCE ITS --
A. NO, I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I SAID SINCE ITS OPERATION.
Q. WHEN DID IT BEGIN OPERATING?
A. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, SOMETIME IN EARLY 1982.
Q. BEFORE OR AFTER IT WAS INCORPORATED?
A. AFTER.
Q. DID YOU APPOINT YOURSELF, FROM YOUR POSITION AS CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ASI, TO THE POSITION OF CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF RTC?
A. IN OTHER WORDS, AS COB OF ASI DID I APPOINT MYSELF CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF RTC?
Q. YES.
A. OF COURSE, NOT; THAT'S RIDICULOUS.
Q. WHO APPOINTED YOU TO THE BOARD OF RTC?
A. THE TRUSTEES OF RTC.
Q. WHO WERE WHO?
A. WHO WERE NORMAN STARKEY, LYMAN SPURLOCK AND MYSELF.
Q. AND THIS WAS AFTER VICKY AZNARAN LEFT?
A. NO.
Q. WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?
MR. DRESCHER: "THIS" BEING HIS APPOINTMENT AS CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGIES?
MS. PLEVIN: CORRECT, CORRECT. THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY "WHEN VICKY AZNARAN" LEFT.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. WELL, LET'S BREAK IT DOWN BECAUSE THERE ARE A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT THINGS WE COULD LOOK AT. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, UP UNTIL FEBRUARY 1987, APPROXIMATELY, SHE WAS PRESIDENT OF RTC?
A. OKAY.
Q. AND THAT SOMETIME IN APRIL, SHE DEPARTED, SHALL WE SAY, SCIENTOLOGY. NOW --
A. I DISAGREE WITH THAT DATE. THAT'S NOT CORRECT. THAT'S NOT ACCURATE.
Q. WHAT IS NOT ACCURATE?
A. YOUR DATE OF APRIL. IT WAS MARCH.
Q. OKAY. WERE YOU APPOINTED TO THE POSITION OF CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD SUBSEQUENT TO VICKY'S -- SUBSEQUENT TO FEBRUARY OF 1987?
A. I'D HAVE TO CHECK THE EXACT DATE.
Q. WAS IT EARLY 19877
A. YES, IF "EARLY" REFERS TO THE FIRST QUARTER OF THE YEAR.
Q. OKAY.
A. OR THEREABOUTS.
Q. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER IT WAS BEFORE OR AFTER SHE LEFT HAPPY VALLEY?
A. NO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU KNOW, MISS PLEVIN, LET ME JUST MAKE A SUGGESTION, JUST FOR ECONOMY'S SAKE. IF YOU WANT TO ASK HIM A DATE, JUST ASK HIM IF HE KNOWS THE DATE INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MEASURE IT AGAINST SOME EVENT HE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF OR MAY OR
MAY NOT UNDERSTAND. JUST ASK HIM THE DATE.
MS. PLEVIN: MR. MISCAVIGE, I'D APPRECIATE IT IF YOU DIDN'T CONFER WITH
MR. RATHMAN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DEPOSITION. THE WITNESS: WHY NOT?
MR. HERTZBERG: THERE'S NO PENDING QUESTION. AND EVEN IF THERE WERE, HE STILL CAN SPEAK WITH HIM AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. AND I WOULD ALSO NOTE FOR THE RECORD THAT THAT'S THE
FIRST TIME I OBSERVED MR. MISCAVIGE SPEAK TO
MR. RATHMAN IN THIS ROOM AND THAT IT WAS FOR, BY MY ESTIMATION, ABOUT FIVE SECONDS. BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. NOW, MR. MISCAVIGE, I'M HANDING YOU A TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT THAT'S CALLED AN RTC INFORMATION LETTER, JULY 23, 1983. A. OKAY.
MR. HERTZBERG: RTC INFORMATION LETTER. OKAY.
MR. DRESCHER: IS THERE A QUESTION PENDING?
MS. PLEVIN: HE'S STILL LOOKING AT THE DOCUMENT, SO I DON'T WANT TO INTERRUPT HIM. THE WITNESS: I THOUGHT YOU WANTED ME TO READ IT. BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. OKAY. FINE.
A. IS THERE ANOTHER PAGE FOR THIS?
Q. NO, THAT'S IT.
A. WELL, SOMETHING IS MISSING.
Q. WHAT'S MISSING?
A. I JUST KNOW IT, BECAUSE ANY ISSUE WILL ALWAYS LIST A COPYRIGHT ON IT OR A TYPIST AND IT'S NOT HERE. THERE'S A PAGE MISSING, APPARENTLY. MR. HERTZBERG: THERE'S NO PENDING QUESTION.
MS. PLEVIN: OKAY.
Q. WELL, I'LL SEE IF WHAT I'VE GOT HAS AN ADDITIONAL PAGE THAT WAS MISSING SOMEHOW.
A. OKAY.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS BEFORE?
A. NOT UNTIL JUST NOW.
Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S COME BACK TO IT IN A MINUTE. LET ME ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS. WOULD YOU STATE, FOR THE RECORD, WHAT PC FOLDERS ARE? A. PRE-CLEAR FOLDERS.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE PRE-CLEAR FOLDERS IN THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY?
A. PRE-CLEAR FOLDERS ARE THE FOLDERS WHICH CONTAIN THE RUNNING RECORD OF AUDITING SESSIONS THAT AN INDIVIDUAL PERSON WILL HAVE HAD FROM HIS FIRST STEP IN SCIENTOLOGY ON THE AUDITING GRADE CHART UP THROUGH THE END. IT ALSO INCLUDES A SUMMARY OF THE SESSIONS HE'S HAD, IT ALSO INCLUDES ANY PROGRAMS THAT HIS CASE HAS BEEN PROGRAMMED FOR, AND IT INCLUDES ALL OF THOSE ADVANCED PROGRAMS, REPAIR PROGRAMS, IT INCLUDES A COPY OF THE GRADE CHART THAT IS INDICATED WITHIN THE GRADE CHART, WHAT STEP THE PERSON HAS HAD. IT HAS ANOTHER SHEET WHICH INCLUDES ALL THE CORRECTION LISTS THAT HE'S HAD, THE WORDS CLEARED FOR, IT INCLUDES ANY FES, FULL FLOW TABLES THAT HAVE EVER BEEN DONE, AND WITHIN THAT FOLDER WITH THE SESSIONS, IT WOULD INCLUDE THE WORK SHEETS OF ANY GIVEN SESSION, THE AUDIT REPORT FORMS, EXAM REPORT FORMS AND CASE SUPERVISION.
Q. IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THESE DOCUMENTS, THE PC FOLDERS, ARE CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATIONS?
A. THAT THE PC --
Q. THAT THE INFORMATION IN THE PC FOLDERS ARE THE PRODUCT OF CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN THE AUDITOR AND THE AUDITEE AND THE PC? A. AS A GENERAL MATTER, YES.
Q. OKAY. PC COMMUNICATIONS WITH AN AUDITOR ARE CONFIDENTIAL?
A. YES, PER THE AUDITOR'S CODE.
Q. PER THE AUDITORS CODE. AND THAT EXTENDS TO THE WRITING OF THE AUDITOR, THE NOTES OF THE AUDITOR THAT BECOME PART OF THE PC FOLDER?
A. IN AN ACTUAL SESSION?
Q. YES.
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. WHAT IS THE POLICY OF THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OR CHURCHES OF SCIENTOLOGY REGARDING THE MAINTENANCE OF PC FOLDERS?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE MAINTENANCE.
Q. WELL, WHERE ARE THEY GENERALLY MAINTAINED WHILE PC IS UNDERGOING AUDITING?
A. AT WHATEVER LOCATION HE'S RECEIVING THE AUDITING.
Q. OKAY. AND THEY MOVE WITH HIM IF HE MOVES TO ANOTHER LOCATION OR ANOTHER ORG?
A. THE LATTER. I MEAN, IF HE -- EXACTLY. IF HE GOES TO ANOTHER ORG AND HE WANTS TO EMBARK UPON AN AUDITING SERVICE, HIS FOLDER SHOULD BE SENT THERE, YES.
Q. OKAY. AND LET'S SAY A PERSON CONCLUDES A PROGRAM AT CLEARWATER AND THEN GOES BACK HOME TO NEBRASKA AND HASN'T TAKEN ANY AUDITING PROGRAMS FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS. WHERE WOULD HIS PC FOLDER BE LOCATED IN THE NORMAL COURSE? A. BY THE WAY, HE DOESN'T TAKE ANY PROGRAMS, JUST TO CLARIFY THIS. HE HASN'T HAD ANY AUDITING, IS ALSO CORRECT.
Q. OKAY.
A. WHERE WOULD THEY BE?
Q. YES.
A. I GUESS THEY'D BE -- YOU SAID IN CLEARWATER?
Q. YES.
A. I GUESS THEY'D BE IN CLEARWATER.
Q. THEY'D STAY AT CLEARWATER UNTIL HE SIGNED FOR AUDITING AT SOME OTHER ORG?
A. NOW, YOU GET INTO A PROBLEM BECAUSE THERE'S ALSO ADVANCED CONFIDENTIALITY OF PC COURSES IF THIS PERSON IS IN ADVANCED COURSES PRE-CLEAR; IF HE WENT TO OMAHA, IN A MISSION IN OMAHA, THIS PERSON WOULD NEVER GO THERE.
Q. BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE ADVANCED STUFF?
A. A PERSON WHO HAS BEEN TO CLEARWATER, TO FLAG LAND BASE, DOES NOT GET AUDITING FROM A MISSION.