Q. DOES THE LINE BETWEEN RTC AND CSI CORRECTLY REFLECT RTC WAS SENIOR TO CSI?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT REFLECTS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE MEANING OF THAT LINE WAS.
Q. WAS RTC SENIOR TO SCI AT THE TIME AT THIS --
MR. HERTZBERG: LET'S ALSO -- ONE DISTINCTION WE'LL HAVE TO MAKE, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CORPORATELY OR ECCLESIASTICALLY. MS. PLEVIN: WE CAN TALK ABOUT BOTH. LET'S TALK ABOUT CORPORATELY FIRST.
Q. WAS RTC SENIOR TO CSI --
A. WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF SENIOR? I REALLY WANT TO KNOW THIS, BECAUSE I THINK -- YOU HAVE A DEFINITION FOR WORDS THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN MINE. Q. WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT YOUR DEFINITION OF "SENIOR" IS, MR. MISCAVIGE.
A. SENIOR, IN MY DEFINITION, IS THAT I GUESS A PERSON WHO SOMEONE DIRECTLY REPORTS TO AND THE SENIOR WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT JUNIOR.
Q. OKAY. ACCORDING TO THAT DEFINITION; IS THIS CORRECT?
A. NO, NO.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID RTC HAVE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR BEING ABLE TO SUPERVISE ANY FUNCTIONS OF CSI?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "SUPERVISE"?
Q. INTERVENE, TAKE CHARGE OF, BYPASS.
MR. HERTZBERG: WHEN ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
MS. PLEVIN: ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS --
MR. HERTZBERG: AT THE TIME OF THIS CHART?
MS. PLEVIN: THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
MR. HERTZBERG: 1982.
MS. PLEVIN: THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
THE WITNESS: INTERVENE, BYPASS -- RTC LICENSED CSI TO USE THE TRADEMARKS OF DIANETICS AND SCIENTOLOGY.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. THE LINE BETWEEN RTC AND SMI HERE, DOES THAT REFLECT ANYWAY IN WHICH RTC WAS SENIOR TO SMI?
A. THAT LINE?
Q. YES.
A. I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT LINE IS THERE LIKE THAT. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. WELL, WAS THE CONFERENCE, TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION, AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF WHAT THE NEW CORPORATE LINES OF AUTHORITY WERE GOING TO BE? A. CORPORATE LINES OF AUTHORITY?
Q. YES.
A. THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS CONFERENCE WAS ABOUT.
Q. MR. SPURLOCK DIDN'T ANNOUNCE NEW CORPORATE STRUCTURES AND LINES OF AUTHORITY AT THIS CONFERENCE, MR. MISCAVIGE?
MR. HERTZBERG: THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION THAN WHETHER THAT'S WHAT THE CONFERENCE WAS ABOUT.
MS. PLEVIN: FINE.
THE WITNESS: COULD I ASK HIM A QUESTION WHILE THERE'S NO QUESTION PENDING?
MS. PLEVIN: THAT QUESTION IS PENDING.
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU CAN ASK ME ANYWAY.
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
MS. PLEVIN: PLEASE READ THE QUESTION BACK.
(RECORD READ.)
THE WITNESS: OKAY. I DON'T KNOW. I'D HAVE TO READ THIS, AND IF YOU WANT, I WILL READ THIS NOW.
MS. PLEVIN: WE CAN TAKE CARE OF THAT IN ANOTHER WAY, WHICH WE WILL DO SO. ALL RIGHT. FINE.
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE PHRASE "BOOK ONE"?
A. YES.
Q. AND DOES THAT REFER TO "DIANETICS, THE SCIENCE OF MENTAL HEALTH"?
A. YES. SEE, YOU ASKED ME A QUESTION THAT'S SENSIBLE, AND I CAN ANSWER IT RIGHT AWAY.
Q. WHO IS WENDELL REYNOLDS?
A. HE'S WENDELL REYNOLDS. WHO IS HE?
Q. DO YOU KNOW --
A. I KNOW HIM.
Q. AT ONE TIME DID HE HAVE THE POST OF FINANCE DIRECTOR?
A. I BELIEVE SO.
Q. WHO APPOINTED HIM TO THAT POST?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT AN ORG BOARD IS?
A. YES.
Q. WOULD YOU DEFINE FOR THE RECORD WHAT AN ORG BOARD IS?
A. "ORG BOARD" MEANS ORGANIZING BOARD, AND IT IS A BOARD THAT IS FOR ORGANIZING THE FUNCTIONS, DIVISIONS, PRODUCTS OF AN ORGANIZATION, OR ANYBODY'S LIFE FOR THAT MATTER. Q. AS A MATTER OF ORGANIZATIONAL POLICY, MANAGEMENT POLICY, IF YOU WILL, DO ALL SCIENTOLOGY ORGANIZATIONS, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAVE AN ORG BOARD?
A. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, YES.
Q. AND CORPORATIONS?
A. INDIVIDUALLY?
Q. MM-HMM.
A. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, ALL SCIENTOLOGY ORGANIZATIONS ARE IN ONE CORPORATION ANOTHER. DOES THAT ANSWER THAT?
Q. IN PART.
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
MS. PLEVIN:
Q. NOW, IS THERE A SCIENTOLOGY ORGANIZATION THAT'S IN RTC?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
Q. WELL, YOU SAID TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, ALL SCIENTOLOGY ORGANIZATIONS ARE INCORPORATED?
A. NO. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I SAID TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, ALL SCIENTOLOGY ORGANIZATIONS ARE WITHIN ONE CORPORATION OR ANOTHER.
Q. OKAY. IS THE ORG BOARD THEN PARTICULARLY RELEVANT TO ORGANIZATIONS, BUT NOT PARTICULARLY RELEVANT TO CORPORATIONS?
A. ORG BOARD -- LIKE ANY CORPORATION -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN -- IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN, ANY CORPORATION?
Q. LET'S TRY TO GET AT IT ANOTHER WAY. I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE ORG STRUCTURE AND THE CORPORATIONS.
A. UH-HUH, OKAY.
Q. NOW, LET'S TAKE AN EXAMPLE.
A. OKAY.
Q. LET'S SAY RTC.
A. OKAY.
Q. RTC IS A CORPORATION?
A. YES.
Q. IT ALSO IS AN ORGANIZATION?
A. YES.
Q. THERE'S AN ORG BOARD?
A. YES.
Q. DOES THE ORG BOARD TRACK CORPORATE OFFICERS?
A. TRACK?
Q. THE POSITIONS ON THE ORG BOARD, DO THEY TRACK CORPORATE POSITIONS?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE WORD "TRACK." JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
Q. THE POSITIONS ON THE ORG BOARD HAVE CERTAIN TITLES?
A. OKAY, SURE.
Q. ARE THOSE TITLES THE SAME AS THE CORPORATE POSITION TITLES? FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S A DIV 6'S IN MOST SCIENTOLOGY CORPORATIONS; IS THAT RIGHT?
A. YES.
Q. PUBLIC --
A. SCIENTOLOGY ORGANIZATIONS.
Q. DOES RTC HAVE A DIV 6?
A. YES.
Q. IS THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR DIV 6 -- I FORGET WHAT THAT TITLE IS.
A. WELL, DIV 6 --
MR. HERTZBERG: IS THAT A QUESTION?
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
THE WITNESS: WELL, THERE'S THREE DIV 6'S IN THE STANDARD SCIENTOLOGY ORGANIZATION, AND RTC IS ONE DIV 6.
BY MR. PLEVIN:
Q. OKAY. AND THE PERSON WHO HAS THE POSITION OF BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR DIV 6 IN THE CORPORATION, IS THAT PERSON THE SAME -- IS THAT POSITION REFLECTED ON THE ORG BOARD? A. DIV 6 IN THE CORPORATION. I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S DIV 6 LISTED IN ANY CORPORATION. I DON'T --
Q. OKAY. THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO CLARIFY. THE ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE ON WHICH -- RTC OPERATES ON THE ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE THAT'S REFLECTED ON THE ORG BOARD?
MR. HERTZBERG: THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT QUESTION.
MS. PLEVIN: LET ME ASK IT.
Q. RTC'S OPERATION RUNS ON THE LINES ON THE ORG BOARD?
A. THE -- "A" IS THE WORD.
Q. "A" IS WHICH WORD?
A. AN ORG BOARD.
Q. AN ORG BOARD.
A. YOU SAID "THE."
Q. OKAY, AN ORG BOARD.
A. OKAY.
Q. SO THE ORG BOARD IS A VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF HOW THE FUNCTIONS IN RTC ARE SEPARATED AND WHO IS IN EACH POSITION?
A. JUST TO CLARIFY, NOT THE; AN. RTC'S ORG BOARD DOES REPRESENT WHO IS IN WHICH POSITION AND WHAT FUNCTION, BUT YOU KEEP USING THE WORD "THE."
Q. ALL RIGHT. I'M TRYING -- IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ORG BOARD LAYOUT AND THE CORPORATE LAYOUT?
A. IS THERE A CORPORATE LAYOUT?
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU'RE MAKING ASSUMPTIONS.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. LET'S TRY IT A DIFFERENT WAY. EACH DIVISION HAS PEOPLE IN THE TOP SLOTS.
A. OKAY.
Q. ARE THOSE PERSONS, DO THEY HAVE SENIOR POSITIONS IN THE CORPORATION AS WELL?
A. THE TOP SLOTS?
Q. YES.
A. I -- I'M SORRY.
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, DO YOU HAVE CORPORATE OFFICERS, SUCH AS A SECRETARY, TREASURER?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND ON THE ORG BOARD, THERE'S THE TREASURY DIVISION AND SO FORTH?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. NOW, THE PERSON WHO FILLS THE POSITION OF TREASURER ON THE ORG BOARD, IS THAT ALSO THE CORPORATE POSITION OF TREASURER?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT THE POSITION OF COMMANDING OFFICER?
A. THERE'S NOT A COMMANDING OFFICER.
Q. WHAT IS THE TOP POSITION ON THE ORG BOARD?
A. CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD.
Q. AND THAT'S YOU?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. SOME ORGANIZATIONS, AS YOU READ THROUGH SCIENTOLOGY MATERIAL, HAVE A COMMANDING OFFICER AND SOME OF THEM HAVE AN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR?
A. RIGHT.
Q. WOULD YOU EXPLAIN WHY SOME ARE CALLED COMMANDING OFFICERS AND WHY SOME ARE CALLED EXECUTIVE DIRECTORS, PLEASE?
MR. HERTZBERG: ALL RIGHT. NOW, I'M GOING TO LET HIM ANSWER THAT QUESTION, BUT I DO WANT TO REMIND YOU THAT THERE'S A LAWSUIT WHICH YOUR CLIENT HAS BROUGHT WHICH HAS SOME ALLEGATIONS IN IT, AND I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THIS QUESTION RELATES TO THE ALLEGATIONS IN THE COMPLAINT, BUT HE MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: OKAY.
MR. HELLER: EXCUSE ME. I ALSO WANT TO REMIND THE WITNESS, DON'T CONJECTURE. IF YOU KNOW THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION, FINE. MR. DRESCHER: I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL THE REFERENCES TO ORG BOARD ARE REFERRING TO AN RTC.
MR. HELLER: VERY GOOD POINT.
MS. PLEVIN: THAT'S FINE.
THE WITNESS: OKAY. THE QUESTION WAS THERE'S EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND COMMANDING OFFICER.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. YES.
A. OKAY. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT AN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR WOULD REFER TO A SCIENTOLOGY, WHAT WE CALL, CLASS FOUR ORGANIZATION, I GUESS IT WOULD APPLY TO MISSIONS OR ANYBODY -- AN ORG BOARD IS AN ORG BOARD. WE USE COMMANDING OFFICER TO REFER TO INSTALLATIONS WHICH ARE GENERALLY SEA WORKINGS, INSTALLATIONS ALTHOUGH NOT IN ALL CASES IS THAT THE TERM THAT'S USED.
Q. WELL, IS CSI A SEA ORG INSTALLATION?
A. CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL, AND THAT'S A CORPORATION.
Q. BUT MR. LESEVRE IS IDENTIFIED AS CAPTAIN.
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT -- ONE MOMENT. ONE MOMENT. IN A MOMENT, HE CAN -- WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. MS. PLEVIN: I'LL CLARIFY. THANK YOU.
Q. IN THE 1982 MISSION HOLDERS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT --
A. RIGHT.
Q. -- THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR WHO YOU INTRODUCED IS IDENTIFIED BY A SEA ORG RANK?
A. YES.
Q. WOULD YOU CLARIFY THAT, PLEASE?
MR. HERTZBERG: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY "CLARIFY." YOU SEE, HERE'S THE PROBLEM: YOU JUST ASKED HIM A SERIES OF QUESTIONING WHICH WOULD BE REASONABLY INTERPRETED, AND I ASSUME WOULD BE INTERPRETED BY MR. MISCAVIGE TO REFER TO MATTERS IN PRESENT TIME. THEN YOU WENT BACK TO SOMETHING IN 1982, AND BY THE PHRASEOLOGY, BUT, YOU SEEM TO IMPLY THERE'S SOME INHERENT CONTRADICTION.
MS. PLEVIN: MR. MISCAVIGE IS PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF MAKING THAT DISTINCTION ON HIS OWN. I'M NOT TRYING TO TRAP HIM. HE CAN SAY IT DOES OR DOESN'T APPLY. MR. HERTZBERG: FINE. SO THE QUESTION IS WHAT IS HE REFERRED TO IN THAT TRANSCRIPT BY THAT TITLE.
MS. PLEVIN: HE WAS REFERRED TO IN THE TRANSCRIPT AS CAPTAIN.
MR. HERTZBERG: WHAT IS THE QUESTION?
MR. LIEBERMAN: THE QUESTION IS WHETHER HE CAN CLARIFY THAT.
MR. HERTZBERG: CAN YOU CLARIFY THAT?
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY "CLARIFY." IT MAKES TOTAL SENSE.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. OKAY.
MR. HELLER, I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF WE DIDN'T HAVE SIDE CONVERSATIONS GOING ON FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.
MR. HELLER: ARE THEY OKAY FOR SHORT PERIODS?
MR. HERTZBERG: THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT MR. HELLER WAS NOT TALKING TO MR. MISCAVIGE.
MS. PLEVIN: NO, HE WASN'T. I DON'T SUGGEST THAT HE WAS, BUT THERE WAS A SIDE CONVERSATION GOING ON --
MR. HERTZBERG: LET'S MOVE ON.
MS. PLEVIN: -- OF SUBSTANTIAL LENGTH.
Q. I'M SHOWING YOU A THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE SOED 1896 INT DATED JANUARY 18, 1982?
A. OKAY.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS DOCUMENT BEFORE, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING THIS, NO.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT BOB PARIS WAS ASKED TO PREPARE A MEMO FOR DISTRIBUTION REGARDING, QUOTE, "UNDERSTANDING CORPORATE INTEGRITY" AT ABOUT THE TIME REFERENCED ON THIS DOCUMENT? A. NO.
Q. WOULD YOU TURN TO THE THIRD PAGE, PLEASE.
A. OKAY. 1828?
Q. RIGHT. ON PAGE 3 IT INDICATES, LOOKING TO THE BOTTOM RIGHT OF THE WRITING, IT SAYS, "CORPORATE SORT OUT MISSION L.A., AUTHORIZED BY WATCHDOG COMMITTEE."
A. MM-HMM.
Q. NOW, DOES THAT MEAN THAT THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED BY CORPORATE SORT OUT MISSION L.A., TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE DOCUMENT. DON'T KNOW WHO PREPARED THIS.
Q. OKAY.
A. IT'S -- OKAY.
Q. AND YOU'VE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE?
MR. HERTZBERG: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE WITNESS: I HAVEN'T SEEN THIS, NO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY DRAFTS OF A DOCUMENT WITH THE TITLE "UNDERSTANDING CORPORATE INTEGRITY"?
A. NO.
Q. WHEN A DOCUMENT HAS ON THE TOP "EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE," AS THIS ONE DOES, AND THERE ARE SEVERAL OTHERS YOU CAN TAKE A LOOK AT -- DO YOU SEE THAT?
A. YES, SURE,
Q. AND TO THE LEFT IT SAYS "SO, SPACE, ED" AND A NUMBER AND THEN "INT."
A. OKAY.
Q. WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT -- THOSE INITIALS AND NUMBER?
A. THE SO ED AND NUMBER?
Q. YES.
A. SO ED MEANS SEA ORG ED, MEANING EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE, AND THEN THE NUMBER WOULD BE THE CONSECUTIVE NUMBER OF THAT ISSUE TYPE AND THIS SAYS "INT" AS WELL AFTER THAT NUMBER, MEANING INTERNATIONAL. THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT IS THAT -- WELL, FOR INSTANCE, ANY ORGANIZATION, FOR INSTANCE, YOU COULD TAKE SEATTLE ORGANIZATION, THEY COULD ISSUE THEIR OWN EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE AND IT WOULD BE CALLED SEA ED, MEANING SEATTLE ED, AND IT WOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT DESIGNATION. THAT WAY YOU DON'T MIX UP THE NUMBERS, BECAUSE NUMBERS COULD MIX, BUT ADDITIONALLY IF THIS SAYS SEA ORG AND INT, FOR INSTANCE, AS HUK WHICH HAPPENS TO BE A SEA ORG, THEY MIGHT USE -- OR HUK ED; OR EVEN SOMEBODY ELSE MIGHT WRITE A SEA ORG ED THAT MEANS IT'S COMING FROM SOMEBODY WHO IS WORKING IN AN ORGANIZATION THAT SEA ORG ED AND COULD APPLY TO ONLY ONE ORG.
LIKE IT COULD SAY SEA ORG ED, BUT IF IT DOESN'T SAY INT, IT COULD BE SOMETHING LOCAL SUCH AS ANYTHING VERY MUNDANE SUCH AS CLEANING STATIONS. SO IT IS A WAY OF SORTING OUT THE NUMBERING TYPES, AND THAT'S WHY -- THAT'S WHY YOU SEE ALL THE INITIALS AND THE NUMBER AND THE INT.
Q. ARE YOU FINISHED? I JUST DON'T WANT TO CUT YOU OFF.
A. IF THAT WAS CLEAR.
Q. IF YOU WOULD, TAKE A LOOK AGAIN AT THE DOCUMENT CONTAINING THE TRANSCRIPT WHICH WE'VE REFERRED TO BEFORE, THE COVER SHEET SAYS "EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE SO ED 2104 INT." A. RIGHT. OKAY.
Q. NOW, TAKE A LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF THAT FRONT SHEET.
A. OKAY.
Q. AND IT SAYS, "CAPTAIN GUILLONE LESEVRE ED INTERNATIONAL, AUTHORIZED BY ABC INT FOR THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL."
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHO WAS ISSUING THIS? SEA ORG OR CSI?
A. WHO WAS ISSUING? SEA ORG ISN'T A CORPORATION.
Q. I DIDN'T SUGGEST IT WAS. BUT --
A. WELL --
MR. HERTZBERG: CAN YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION AS IT'S FRAMED?
THE WITNESS: NO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. UNDER WHOSE AUTHORITY WAS THIS DOCUMENT ISSUED?
A. IT'S SIGNED CAPTAIN GUILLONE LESEVRE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL.
Q. FOR THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL?
A. THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. BUT IT'S A SEA ORG EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE AT THE SAME TIME?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND GUILLONE LESEVRE IS A MEMBER OF THE SEA ORG?
A. HE'S A SEA ORG MEMBER, IS A BETTER WAY OF STATING THAT.
Q. OKAY. I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO THE PERIOD OF -- WELL, YOU MADE THE MOVE WITH -- TO GILMAN HOT SPRINGS IN THE LATTER PART OF 1979, APPROXIMATELY?
A. IS THAT WHAT I SAID?
Q. SOMETHING -- I THINK SO.
A. LET ME THINK. NO. I'VE GOT TO CORRECT THAT. I THINK THAT WAS MORE LIKE MAYBE -- MAYBE MARCH OR APRIL OF 1979.
Q. EARLIER ON?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AFTER YOU MOVED TO GILMAN HOT SPRINGS --
A. OKAY.
Q. -- WHAT TYPE OF COMMUNICATION DID YOU HAVE WITH L.R.H.?
MR. HERTZBERG: OKAY. NOW, I'M GOING TO REITERATE THE OBJECTION THAT WAS MADE PREVIOUSLY. WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET INTO -- PURSUE THESE IRRELEVANT TANGENTS WHICH ARE WASTING A LOT OF TIME. IF YOU WANT TO ASK HIM ABOUT COMMUNICATIONS THAT HE HAD WITH MR. HUBBARD DEALING WITH THE COMPLAINT, MATTERS DEALING WITH BENT CORYDON, MATTERS DEALING WITH SQUIRRELS OR ARGUABLY MISSIONS, LET'S ASK HIM ABOUT THOSE COMMUNICATIONS- OTHERWISE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO SPEND OUR TIME HERE ON LONG DISCOURSES ABOUT MATTERS INTRUSIVE INTO THE ECCLESIASTICAL POLICIES OF THE CHURCH, THE PRACTICES OF THE CHURCH, EVEN IF IN SOME INSTANCES THEY WERE NOT, INTO EVERY CONVERSATION HE HAD WITH MR. HUBBARD, THE MANNER IN WHICH THEY TOOK PLACE. LET'S GET TO THE CORE OF THE ISSUE HERE. WE'VE SPENT ENOUGH TIME AGAIN, WITHOUT MY EVER HEARING BENT CORYDON'S NAME IN ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS. THAT'S THE POSITION WE'RE GOING TO TAKE ON THIS.
MS. PLEVIN: ARE YOU INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. HERTZBERG: YES.
MS. PLEVIN: YOU'VE TOTALLY DONE 180-DEGREE ABOUT-FACE, MR. HERTZBERG, BECAUSE YOU PREVIOUSLY INDICATED THAT YOU WOULD PERMIT HIM TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS REGARDING HIS COMMUNICATIONS WITH MR. HUBBARD, SO FAR AS I KNOW. MR. DRESCHER: NO, HE DIDN'T. HE LIMITED IT EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
MS. PLEVIN: THEN I'M GOING TO ASK A SERIES OF QUESTIONS. AND IF YOU WANT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO LET HIM ANSWER, THEN FINE, BUT I'M GOING TO ASK THE QUESTIONS.
Q. DID YOU HAVE COMMUNICATION WITH L.R.H. WHILE YOU WERE AT GILMAN HOT SPRINGS? WAS THAT COMMUNICATION MOSTLY IN PERSON --
MR. HERTZBERG: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.
MR. DRESCHER: DO YOU WANT AN ANSWER OR A RESPONSE?
MS. PLEVIN: I DO. LET ME KNOW IF YOU WANT TO LET HIM ANSWER.
MR. HERTZBERG: DID HE HAVE COMMUNICATION WITH HIM? YES. HE CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: YES.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. WERE THOSE FACE-TO-FACE COMMUNICATIONS?
MR. HERTZBERG: I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT HIM -- UNLESS YOU -- UNLESS WE START DISCUSSING -- YOU START ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER HE HAD COMMUNICATIONS WITH MR. HUBBARD ABOUT BENT CORYDON, SQUIRRELS OR MISSIONS, I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO ANSWER. THE
REST OF IT IS IMMATERIAL.
MS. PLEVIN: ARE YOU INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. HERTZBERG: YES, UNLESS WILL YOU LIMIT THAT QUESTION.
MR. LIEBERMAN: WITH THAT LIMITATION.
MR. HERTZBERG: WITH THE LIMITATION, I'M INSTRUCTING MR. MISCAVIGE, WITH THE LIMITATION THAT I'VE ARTICULATED. BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DID YOU RECEIVE WRITTEN COMMUNICATION FROM MR. HUBBARD?
MR. LIEBERMAN: YOU CAN ANSWER THAT, SUBJECT TO THE LIMITATION.
MS. PLEVIN: I'M NOT LIMITING.
THE WITNESS: I'M NOT SURE WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO ANSWER.
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU CAN ANSWER WHETHER YOU RECEIVED WRITTEN COMMUNICATIONS FROM MR. HUBBARD AT GILMAN HOT SPRINGS, IF THOSE WRITTEN COMMUNICATIONS FROM MR. HUBBARD -- IF THERE WERE ANY, THAT DEALT WITH BENT CORYDON, SQUIRRELS OR MISSIONS, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO START WASTING ANY MORE TIME ON MATTERS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITS THIS LAWSUIT AND GET INTO A BROAD OVERINTRUSIVE INQUIRY ABOUT THE CHURCH AND OTHER IRRELEVANT MATTERS.
MR. HELLER: OR MR. CORYDON'S MISSION.
MS. PLEVIN: YOU'RE INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER? MR. HERTZBERG: YES.
MS. PLEVIN: DID YOU --
MR. HERTZBERG: SUBJECT TO THAT --
MS. PLEVIN: I'M NOT LIMITING IT.
MR. HERTZBERG: I UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE INSTRUCTION. MR. LIEBERMAN: LET'S HEAR WHAT HIS ANSWER IS.
MR. HELLER: BEFORE YOU GO ON --
MR. HERTZBERG: CAN YOU ANSWER?
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
THE WITNESS: I'M CONFUSED. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHEN I MOVED UP TO GILMAN HOT SPRINGS AND I ANSWERED I HAD COMMUNICATION WITH MR. HUBBARD. BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. YES. I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT WHETHER YOU HAD FACE-TO-FACE COMMUNICATION?
MR. DRESCHER: MAY WE HAVE A MOMENT, PLEASE?
MS. PLEVIN: SURE, AGAIN, EXTENSIVE COLLOQUY.
(RECESS TAKEN.)
MS. PLEVIN: WOULD YOU READ THE QUESTION THAT'S PENDING?
(RECORD READ.)
MR. HERTZBERG: WHEN?
MS. PLEVIN: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AT THE TIME MR. MISCAVIGE MOVED TO GILMAN HOT SPRINGS AND AFTER THAT.
MR. HERTZBERG: WELL, WHAT TIME PERIOD?
MR. LIEBERMAN: YOU MEAN FROM 1979 UNTIL THE PRESENT?
MS. PLEVIN: NO. MR. MISCAVIGE PERHAPS CAN INDICATE WHAT THE PERIODS OF TIME WERE THAT HE DID OR DIDN'T.
Q. DID YOU HAVE COMMUNICATION WITH HIM?
MR. HERTZBERG: DID -- OKAY. THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION. DID --
THE WITNESS: I ANSWERED THAT QUESTION.
MS. PLEVIN: HE ANSWERED THAT QUESTION.
MR. HERTZBERG: OKAY.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. NOW, HE SAID HE'S HAD COMMUNICATIONS WITH HIM AFTER HE MOVED TO GILMAN HOT SPRINGS -- AFTER MR. MISCAVIGE MOVED TO GILMAN HOT SPRINGS. DID YOU RECEIVE WRITTEN COMMUNICATION FROM MR. HUBBARD AFTER YOU MOVED TO GILMAN HOT SPRINGS?
MR. HERTZBERG: FROM WHAT TIME TO WHAT TIME?
MS. PLEVIN: LET'S TAKE IT '79 THROUGH '81.
MR. HERTZBERG: OKAY. THAT'S THE PENDING QUESTION, FROM 1979 TO '81. OKAY. NOW, I WILL PERMIT, UNLESS YOU WANT TO REPHRASE THE QUESTION, WHICH YOU'RE APPARENTLY NOT GOING TO, I WILL PERMIT MR. MISCAVIGE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION INSOFAR AS HE CAN TESTIFY WHETHER HE RECEIVED ANY WRITTEN COMMUNICATIONS FROM MR. HUBBARD BETWEEN 1979 AND 1981 CONCERNING BENT CORYDON, THE SUBJECT OF SQUIRRELS OR THE SUBJECT OF MISSIONS.
MS. PLEVIN: OR THE SUBJECT OF MR. MISCAVIGE'S ROLE AND POWER WITHIN SCIENTOLOGY. IF YOU ADD THAT, I MIGHT CONSIDER THAT AS REASONABLE. MR. HERTZBERG: YOU MAY ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: OKAY. THE ANSWER IS --
MR. HERTZBERG: WITH THAT ADDITION THAT MS, PLEVIN HAS ADDED. I WANT THE RECORD TO BE CLEAR,
THE WITNESS: I HAVE TO CLARIFY WHAT THIS LAST BIT MEANS, GIVE ME THAT.
BY MS, PLEVIN:
Q, MR., HUBBARD'S COMMUNICATIONS INCLUDING --
A, NO, I UNDERSTOOD THE FIRST PART. YOU ADDED SOMETHING TO IT, I WANT TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND THAT,
Q, INCLUDING REFERENCE TO YOUR ROLE IN SCIENTOLOGY ORGANIZATIONS AND CORPORATIONS OR POTENTIAL ROLE,
A. NO.
Q. NO WRITTEN COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN '79 AND '81 ON THOSE -- NOW, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ALL OF THOSE --
A. MISSIONS, SQUIRRELS, BENT CORYDON AND ON MY POTENTIAL POWER AND ROLE IN SCIENTOLOGY CORPORATIONS ORGANIZATIONS.
Q. DID YOU RECEIVE ANY TELEXES FROM MR. HUBBARD REGARDING THAT PERIOD OF TIME?
MR. HERTZBERG: '79 TO '81?
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
MR. HERTZBERG: I'M GOING TO ALLOW MR. MISCAVIGE TO ANSWER THAT, SUBJECT TO THE SAME AREAS THAT WE'VE JUST AGREED ON.
MS. PLEVIN: WE CAN HAVE THAT UNDERSTANDING.
THE WITNESS: OKAY. ANSWER IT?
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
THE WITNESS: NO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. LET'S GO BACK TO THE PERSON-TO-PERSON COMMUNICATION, AS WITH THIS SAME GROUP OF AREAS OF TESTIMONY.
MR. HERTZBERG: SO LIMIT IT TO THOSE SUBJECT AREAS.
THE WITNESS: RIGHT, NO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY COMMUNICATION WITH MR. HUBBARD DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME THROUGH ANY INTERMEDIARIES?
MR. HERTZBERG: WITH THE SAME FOUR CATEGORIES LIMITED?
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
THE WITNESS: NO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. NOW, LET'S TAKE ALL OF THOSE QUESTIONS FORWARD, AND ONE AT A TIME, FROM 1981 TO 1986, UNTIL HIS DEATH.
DID YOU HAVE ANY PERSON-TO-PERSON COMMUNICATIONS WITH MR. HUBBARD REGARDING THOSE AREAS OF INQUIRY?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY WRITTEN COMMUNICATIONS FROM HIM REGARDING THOSE AREAS OF INQUIRY?
A. ONE SECOND.
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
THE WITNESS: YES.