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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
3
4
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 2
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15
16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
17
CONTENTS: Testimony of Brian Haney.
18 (Cross-Examination)
19 DATE: June 19, 2002. Afternoon Session.
20 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida.
21
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
22 Circuit Judge.
23 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
Deputy Official Court Reporter,
24 Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. RICHARD D. ROGOVIN
Bricker & Eckler, LLP
23 100 South Third Street
Columbus, Ohio 43215-4291
24 Attorney for Hugh Brian Haney.
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1 APPEARANCES:
(Continued)
2
3 MR. ROBERT J. HEALY, JR.
Fowler, White, Boggs & Banker
4 501 First Avenue North
Suite 900
5 St. Petersburg, Florida 33701
Attorney for Digital Lightwave.
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1 THE COURT: You may be seated.
2 All right. You may inquire.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Haney.
7 You say -- I heard you say that you are not an
8 anti-Scientologist, just a Scientology critic. Is that what
9 you said?
10 A That would be correct.
11 Q All right. Now, eventually, am I right, that you
12 disassociated yourself from the Lisa McPherson Trust because
13 they -- their actions or purpose was to harass Scientology,
14 that is essentially what they started doing? Is that what
15 you said?
16 A Most of the activities were dictated by Bob. And
17 they were mostly to harass Scientology, yes.
18 Q Now, Mr. Minton was an anti-Scientologist, wasn't
19 he?
20 A I -- I don't know how he considers himself.
21 Q Well, how did you consider him when you saw him in
22 action at the Lisa McPherson Trust, and then the contact you
23 had with him over the Internet and in person? How did you
24 consider him? He was somebody that had -- had a very strong
25 dislike for Scientology, didn't he?
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1 A I thought of it a little differently than that. I
2 thought of him as somebody who wanted to be in the
3 spotlight. So I didn't, you know, look at it maybe the same
4 way you do. But that is the way he got himself in the
5 spotlight.
6 Q Stacy Brooks, at the LMT, she was an
7 anti-Scientologist, wasn't she?
8 A Actually, Stacy usually was telling him not to do
9 the things that he did, but he didn't listen to her, either,
10 at least during the time I was present.
11 Q Now, Jesse Prince, you had association with him,
12 didn't you?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you considered him to be an
15 anti-Scientologist, didn't you?
16 A Mmm, Jesse almost never wanted to do the things
17 like picketing. He did a couple times at the beginning. I
18 think he disliked it and he didn't want to.
19 But Bob made it pretty much a requirement of
20 working there that, you know, you had to accompany him on
21 these things. I would say it was considered disloyal if you
22 didn't participate.
23 Q So it's fair to say that Jesse went kicking and
24 screaming to these pickets but he didn't really want to go?
25 A Well, at the beginning he went to a few of them, I
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1 would say, gleefully, and I would say after that, Mmm, you
2 know, very quickly it soured in his mouth, so to speak.
3 Q Well, and you were at these pickets?
4 A No.
5 Q But you just heard about them?
6 A I heard about them and sometimes saw videos of
7 them, yeah.
8 Q Mr. Bunker's videos of them?
9 A Yes.
10 Q So did you see the videos where Mr. Minton and
11 Mr. Prince and others at the LMT shouted obscenities at the
12 Church?
13 A I saw -- I saw a video when they were in Boston
14 where the two of them and the one fellow -- kind of short
15 fellow -- Mmm, had a very, you know, bad altercation in
16 front of the Boston org. I remember that one.
17 Q Well, you went on the -- on the Internet and would
18 go to the ARS site, alt.religion.scientology site. You did
19 that, didn't you?
20 A I viewed it, yes.
21 Q And you would consider that to be an
22 anti-Scientology site, wouldn't you?
23 A Well, if you tell me what you mean by
24 anti-Scientology, I will be happy to make that more concise.
25 Q Well, it's fair to say that the people that visit
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1 that site, the great vast majority of them say very nasty
2 things, often obscene things, about the Church of
3 Scientology, David Miscavige, and others involved in
4 Scientology, right?
5 A I would say that there is a very vocal, very small
6 minority, that do exactly what you are saying, yes.
7 Q And that vocal, small minority included people
8 like Bob Minton, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Jesse Prince?
11 A Mmm, some. Not nearly so much. Yeah.
12 Q Stacy Brooks?
13 A No. She -- she didn't -- I don't remember her
14 ever using foul language.
15 Q Now, Grady Ward? I mean, he was one of your
16 fellow board members or advisory committee members at the
17 LMT. You saw some of his stuff on ARS, didn't you?
18 A I saw Grady Ward's things that you're talking
19 about. And then, as I recall, he just stopped.
20 Q Right. And those were -- were beyond obscene,
21 correct? Those were grotesque?
22 A Yes, I would never -- I didn't read them after the
23 first couple, so ...
24 Q Now, you would consider him a critic of
25 Scientology like yourself? That is, Grady Ward?
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1 A I don't think I can call him -- people have
2 different purposes. My purpose is the only one I can really
3 speak to.
4 Q Well, the other folks that were at the LMT that
5 were on the board that you were on, on the advisory
6 committee, you know, when this got started, Jeff Jacobsen
7 was a critic of Scientology?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Rod Keller?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Critic?
12 Gerry Armstrong?
13 A Mmm --
14 Q Critic?
15 A I don't think he was on either of those things.
16 But you might know better.
17 Q Frank Oliver?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Critic, right?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q Larry Wollersheim?
22 A He was not active in those things. He was off by
23 himself.
24 Q Now, you would consider some of the things that
25 you saw posted by folks like some of the critics that we
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1 just talked about on ARS to be religious bigotry, wouldn't
2 you, posted against the Church of Scientology? That is what
3 it is, isn't it?
4 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Outside of the scope.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 A I think that people had strong opinions about
9 Scientology's behavior. And sometimes they expressed those
10 in ways that I wouldn't, but I think each person is entitled
11 to their own opinion.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Well, did you approve of the obscene statements
14 that Mr. Prince made in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel
15 about David Miscavige?
16 A I didn't see that.
17 Q Did you approve of the obscene statements that
18 Mr. Minton made in front of Church buildings? Is that
19 something that you believed -- believe is -- is appropriate
20 conduct?
21 A The one tape that I saw in Boston, that fellow,
22 Frank Ofman or whatever his name is, Bob and Jesse were
23 walking back and forth -- trying to just walk back and
24 forth, and he stayed in their face so close that I'm sure
25 his spittle was on their face. And finally at some point
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1 they all ended up screaming filthy language at each other.
2 Yes, that did happen.
3 Q What did you mean when you said that Jesse Prince
4 didn't want to picket?
5 A I didn't say that. I said, to me, I think he lost
6 his taste for it because of that incident, and maybe one
7 other like it.
8 Then, after that, I think he did it strictly
9 because Bob wanted him to. And it was -- you know, it was
10 basically a requirement of the job, I think.
11 Q So when you say the job, Bob Minton was paying
12 Jesse Prince to do whatever Bob Minton wanted Jesse Prince
13 to do? Was that your understanding?
14 A No. My understanding was that there were a group
15 of people, six or eight people, who worked at the Lisa
16 McPherson Trust. And each time Bob went to picket, he would
17 ask them to picket. And if they didn't want to go, I saw
18 the way he behaved toward them. And it's my impression that
19 he considered it disloyal for them not to go picket when he
20 wanted them to.
21 Q I thought you lived in Columbus, Ohio?
22 A I do.
23 Q So how frequently were you in Clearwater?
24 A Mmm, maybe one year, four times. Another year,
25 three times. Something like that.
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1 Q So this experience that you're talking about,
2 about your observations concerning Jesse Prince and Bob
3 Minton, this would be a handful of experiences because you
4 weren't down here on a daily basis, or weekly basis, or even
5 a monthly basis, correct?
6 A It would be that small number in Clearwater, yes.
7 Q Now, when did you become a critic of Scientology,
8 as you use that term?
9 A Mmm, I got on the Internet in, I think, August of
10 '96. And I spent quite a lot of time, between August,
11 September, October, reading on the Internet. And I would
12 say by October I knew enough about what was going on that I
13 would consider myself a critic.
14 Q Well, you left the staff. And you left being a
15 public member of Scientology when?
16 A In February of '94.
17 Q So from February of '94 when you left, until what
18 you just said, August of '96, you were not a critic of
19 Scientology?
20 A Yes, I didn't do anything. I didn't -- you know,
21 I didn't do anything in relation to Scientology during that
22 time.
23 Q Well, what do you mean by critic?
24 A I mean someone who believes that there are things
25 about Scientology and its actions in society that ought to
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1 either be reformed or stopped, and that someone would have a
2 moral obligation to bring those things to the attention of
3 parties who could do something about it.
4 And also the aspect of helping people, helping
5 people who have lost their money, their homes, their
6 familial relationships, through their association with
7 Scientology, help them to get help through rehab centers,
8 through counseling, through churches.
9 Q And you learned this -- this information that led
10 you to be a critic from going on the Internet in August
11 of -- August, September and October of 1996?
12 A I would say not exclusively, but, yes, the vast
13 majority of what I learned, I learned from reading it on the
14 Internet.
15 Q And what site or sites did you visit on the
16 Internet, Mr. Haney?
17 A Mmm, I wasn't conversant with the Internet back
18 then. I just got started. So I don't know all of the
19 different places that I went. But certainly --
20 Q List one.
21 A Xenu.net, which they call Operation Clambake. I
22 know that was one.
23 Q Operation Clambake. How about ARS,
24 alt.religion.scientology?
25 A That is just a newsgroup. They have messages
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1 there. And I started reading messages at some point, but I
2 don't know when it was.
3 Q How did you find out about Operation Clambake or
4 whatever the site?
5 A It was referred to on one of the places I went. I
6 mean, I just put -- I put "Scientology" into a search
7 engine, it popped up with results, and I went to some of the
8 places that came up.
9
10 Q Well, was there something that happened in August
11 of '96 that had you go to Operation Clambake, start going to
12 the Internet, which you said you had not visited much
13 before?
14 THE COURT: I don't think it is Operation
15 Clambake. I think it is X-E-N-U, I have seen it
16 referred to.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q But that is the Operation Clambake site, is that
19 what it is?
20 A That is the title page. That is what it says,
21 yes.
22 Q How do you pronounce that? Xenu?
23 A Yes. That is how you pronounce it. Xenu.net.
24 MR. WEINBERG: You are quicker than I am on
25 that.
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Was there something that occurred in August of '96
3 that caused you, led you, to go to Xenu.com and some of
4 these other sites on the Internet?
5 A Only that I got Internet access. And when I got
6 it, I put many different things into the search engine and
7 saw the results that came up and looked at things.
8 For instance, my car. I have an NSX. So I put
9 "Acura NSX" in there. And I have lots of different things
10 like that. And one was Scientology.
11 Q But you didn't become a critic of Acura cars,
12 right?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q But you put in "Scientology." And what came out
15 was -- were sites or places where you -- one could go to
16 see -- to read very bad things about Scientology. Correct?
17 A I would say that there were sites that had a
18 tremendous amount of information about Scientology, yes.
19 Q Okay. And was there some way that you could
20 assure yourself that what you were reading was, you know,
21 anything more than garbage?
22 A Mmm, only to the -- only by the sense that you
23 just look at a wide variety of sources and come to a
24 conclusion based on reading all of them. I do that with a
25 lot of things.
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1 Q So you went on the Internet for three months in
2 '96 and you got all educated up from these sites about
3 Scientology. And then what did you do?
4 A I contacted some of the people that had E-Mail
5 addresses on ARS at some point.
6 Q Okay. Well, who were some of the people?
7 A Well, I don't remember initially.
8 Q Well, some names that we might know. Vaughn
9 Young? Stacy Young? Jesse Prince? Larry Wollersheim?
10 A Well, Stacy was one of the first ones.
11 Q Stacy Young?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Anybody else that comes to mind?
14 A I don't know who else in the beginning that I
15 contacted.
16 Q Well, after the beginning?
17 A Oh, certainly Grady Ward. Well, if you go all of
18 the way up until today, Frank Oliver, Mark DeLarma
19 (phonetic), Jeff Jacobsen, Jesse Prince, Bob Minton.
20 Q What did you do with them on the Internet? You
21 got their E-Mail addresses. What did you do?
22 A Just asked them what their association with -- you
23 know, with Scientology, what was their interest, how did
24 they become interested in it, what was their experience, if
25 they'd been members, that kind of stuff.
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1 Q And did, for example, Stacy Young tell you she and
2 her husband had been making a living writing declarations
3 and testifying in cases involving the Church of Scientology?
4 Did she tell you that?
5 A That wasn't the area of my inquiry, no.
6 Q Okay. When you talked to Jesse Prince, did he
7 tell you that he was being hired on to -- to work in cases
8 against the Church of Scientology?
9 A I met Jesse before that. So, no.
10 Q Well, did you have discussions with any of these
11 people on the Internet about their cases involving
12 Scientology?
13 A I don't know what you mean by that.
14 Q Did you talk -- did you communicate with Larry
15 Wollersheim ever?
16 A Yes. Once or twice I did. Yes.
17 Q Okay. How?
18 A By E-Mail. And then I went to the FACTNet board
19 meeting. And I certainly saw him there, talked to him some
20 there.
21 Q Okay. So first it's going to the Internet. Then
22 you get names, E-Mail addresses, you communicate with
23 people.
24 Then what do you do as you evolved as a critic of
25 Scientology after October of '96?
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1 THE COURT: I don't know what exactly you mean,
2 what did he do?
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q Well, was there some other -- I mean, it sounds
5 like it was an evolution, first the Internet, then you are
6 communicating with some individuals. Then is it FACTNet?
7 I mean, what is the next -- what is it that you do
8 to -- to -- to launch your critic activities?
9 A Well, I really didn't do anything. I mean, I just
10 communicated with people. And sometimes when there were
11 meetings, the AFF meeting, or the --
12 Q What does that mean, AFF?
13 A American Family Foundation. It's an organization
14 of academics, mostly, who meet and discuss cultic issues
15 around the world. They meet once a year at a convention. I
16 went to that convention two times.
17 Q With any of the -- of the critics from
18 Scientology?
19 A Mmm, yes.
20 Q Who?
21 A Stacy was there sometimes. Bob was there
22 sometimes. Hana and Jerry Whitfield were there sometimes.
23 Frank Oliver was there sometimes. Jeff Jacobsen was there
24 sometimes. Rob Keller was at the one in Philadelphia.
25 Q All right. Now, FACTNet, when was it -- or how
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1 was it that you got involved in FACTNet?
2 A Well, I went to the FACTNet board meeting and met
3 the four or five people there.
4 Q Well, did somebody invite you to go there?
5 A Yes. Stacy did.
6 Q So you had acquainted -- had you visited with
7 Stacy before? Or was this just over the phone or by E-Mail?
8 A I think just by E-Mail. Maybe once on the phone.
9 Q Okay. And you knew what FACTNet was? It was
10 explained to you what it was?
11 A I just went to their website and looked at what
12 they were.
13 Q And did you understand that -- that it had to do
14 with Scientology and activities against Scientology?
15 A I thought of it as an archival library about
16 cults, almost exclusively about Scientology. They had four
17 or five other things, but mostly about Scientology.
18 Q When did you go out there, approximately?
19 A During the same time period.
20 Q Well --
21 A August, September, '96. That is when I went
22 there -- no, I'm sorry, I take that back. Mmm, sometime
23 before May of '98, but I don't know when the first time I
24 went there was.
25 Q Okay. And you -- when you went there, you met
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1 with Mr. Wollersheim, Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton?
2 A And Dan Leipold.
3 Q And Dan Leipold was there, as well?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that when you first met Mr. Leipold?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And it was at that first meeting that you
8 contributed $100,000?
9 A No. It was a couple weeks later.
10 Q And then the total amount that you gave to FACTNet
11 was $120,000?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And those were checks made payable to FACTNet?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And that money was solicited by Ms. Brooks, or
16 Mr. Minton, or who?
17 A Mostly by Ms. Brooks.
18 Q Okay. And -- and that caused you, I think you
19 said, down the road some concern because you didn't think
20 the money was being used the way you wanted it to be used?
21 A I had given that money to pay their operating
22 expenses for approximately one year. I understood their
23 operating expenses to be about $8,000 a month. They were
24 putting all their money toward litigation.
25 I thought the archival library was a valuable
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1 resource for people who wanted to find out about
2 Scientology. So I said, "Look, I'll put in this money and
3 this should pay your expenses for one year, during which you
4 can do other fund-raising efforts and raise money to keep it
5 going after that." That was my intention.
6 Q Now, you knew Mr. Minton was also putting his
7 money into FACTNet, too, right?
8 A No.
9 Q Now, you were on the board of FACTNet?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you have a position at FACTNet?
12 A No.
13 Q In the fall of 1998, you funded an
14 anti-Scientology airplane banner that flew over the county,
15 correct?
16 A I contributed money to a -- to -- somebody had
17 arranged for a banner that said "Remember Lisa McPherson."
18 And I think it was about $1,000. And I said I would put up
19 half of it if the group of people that were sitting there,
20 about 30 people, put up the other half of the money to fly
21 over downtown while they did the vigil, yes.
22 Q Was that your idea?
23 A No.
24 Q Whose idea was it?
25 A Mmm, I think the guy's name was Kevin Baker, but
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1 I'm not sure that is exactly right. That is what I
2 remember.
3 Q During that same period of time, you paid for
4 anti-Scientology ads to go up on transit authority buses in
5 Pinellas County, didn't you?
6 A No, I did not.
7 Q You didn't contribute any money to that?
8 A No. No.
9 Q Did you have anything to do with it?
10 A I talked to Frank Oliver about it. It was his
11 idea to start a -- he's in that business, and he wanted to
12 cause a group of advertisements like that to be circulated
13 around. And he asked my advice about specific aspects of
14 that. And I gave him that advice.
15 Q And do you know who paid for it?
16 A My understanding is it was like $100. I think he
17 paid for it himself.
18 Q Now, you attended the Public (sic) Suncoast
19 Transit Authority -- PSTA -- meeting on January 27, 1999
20 with Mr. Oliver and with Mr. Dandar when there was a
21 petition being made -- being advanced to try to get those
22 ads back up on the buses, correct?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q And you were there to -- as part of Mr. Oliver's
25 team? Or what?
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1 A Mmm, I was there because I was interested. I
2 thought that was a very egregious situation and I was
3 shocked it occurred. So I was very interested to see the
4 outcome.
5 Q Do you remember seeing the ads on the buses?
6 A I didn't stay that day. I was leaving town. I
7 walked by the bus stop and I might have seen two or three of
8 them as they went by, but that is it.
9 Q And did you have anything to do with the
10 different -- the language on the different ads?
11 A No. Somebody else -- I assume Frank -- did that.
12 Q And what participation did Mr. Dandar have in all
13 of that? Do you know what he was doing at that meeting with
14 you and Mr. Oliver?
15 A Mmm, he agreed to speak on Frank's behalf. That
16 is all.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Could I approach, your Honor?
18 THE COURT: You may.
19 MR. WEINBERG: This was part of 161.
20 THE COURT: I think I have already seen them.
21 MR. DANDAR: Are these in evidence?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I -- there was an
23 objection way back when. And I frankly don't know,
24 recall, what the bottom line was.
25 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, do you happen to have
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1 the exhibit number of this group of pictures?
2 MR. FUGATE: It is 161. And on my list it says
3 ID only.
4 THE COURT: This is Number 161. Is it in
5 evidence?
6 MR. DANDAR: I do not believe so. But, you
7 know what, we objected before. We'll waive the
8 objection and let them in.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
10 THE COURT: All right. Then whatever is 161,
11 I'm sure it is this or something like this.
12 MR. WEINBERG: I think what it was was the
13 transcript plus the -- no, it is just the ads. So
14 this is in evidence.
15 THE COURT: It's in evidence.
16 THE CLERK: It was only --
17 MR. WEINBERG: No. But she just admitted it.
18 THE COURT: I just admitted it without
19 objection.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q You would consider -- you flipped through there.
22 You would consider these to be rather critical signs of
23 Scientology, correct?
24 A I consider them to be anti as opposed to pro, yes.
25 Q And you were -- and your position was that this
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1 was some First Amendment right to be able to put this on the
2 buses? Was that the idea?
3 A I think the idea was Frank modeled these slogans
4 in the campaign after the one done by truth.com where they
5 ran advertisements on billboards and other places, on
6 television, about big tobacco and their smoking campaign.
7 And they used rather tantalizing statements to get people to
8 pay attention. And he modeled it on that. And I thought it
9 was a smart idea. I thought it would get a lot of
10 attention.
11 Q And this was at a time when you were a consultant
12 for Mr. Dandar in the wrongful death case, correct?
13 A No. It was after that.
14 Q Well, the meeting was -- was in 1999, wasn't it,
15 the transit authority meeting?
16 A Mmm --
17 Q Weren't these signs in the fall of '98?
18 A I thought that -- I thought that this was -- I
19 could be wrong, but I thought that he did these signs. And
20 then the next week I went to Gerry Armstrong's deposition.
21 Q All right.
22 A And that -- that was the beginning of my working
23 with Mr. Dandar.
24 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach, I think I
25 can refresh his recollection.
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1 THE COURT: All right.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q I'm going to show you what are some minutes of
4 January 27, 1999 of the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority.
5 You see in here there is a section at the end,
6 there is a sign-in. And that is your signature, correct?
7 A Yes, it is.
8 Q Does that refresh your recollection that --
9 A Yes. So it was actually the month after. So I
10 started working with Mr. Dandar in December. And this was
11 the next January. That is correct.
12 MR. DANDAR: So what is the date? I'm sorry.
13 THE COURT: I don't know.
14 THE WITNESS: January 27, '99.
15 MR. WEINBERG: January 27, '99.
16 MR. DANDAR: The hearing?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
18 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thanks.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Now, I'm going to show you --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I'll have the clerk mark --
22 THE CLERK: 212.
23 MR. WEINBERG: -- this as 212.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q And if you'll just look at Exhibit 212. Is that
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1 the banner that you contributed to that was flown over the
2 county?
3 A Yes. I never saw it, so --
4 THE COURT: You are assuming that is it?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. It sure looks like it.
6 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit number?
7 THE COURT: 212.
8 MR. WEINBERG: 212. I move 212 into evidence.
9 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
10 THE COURT: It will be received.
11 MR. DANDAR: Do we have a date on this?
12 MR. WEINBERG: No. But I think he said it was
13 in the fall of '98.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q Is that right?
16 A This would have been during the same week that the
17 signs were on the bus. Yes.
18 Q And that had to do with the Lisa McPherson vigil,
19 that was all timed for about the same time?
20 A It was the -- the memorial of her death was that
21 week. Yes.
22 Q Okay. So that would be early December. Correct?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q Now, has Mr. Dandar been your lawyer in anything?
25 A I don't believe so, no.
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1 Q You said something about you and Mr. Dandar having
2 the same problem with the same individual.
3 A That is correct.
4 Q What was that?
5 A Mmm --
6 Q Or who was that, first of all?
7 A Well, I would rather not say who it is because --
8 because I would rather not have that person contacted or
9 possibly harassed.
10 Q Well, excuse me --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I object. That person has
13 nothing to do with Scientology, nothing to do with
14 litigation, nothing to do with this case.
15 THE COURT: I'm sorry, this is a hearing, he
16 brought it up. He needs to answer the question. I
17 can't assume that is going to happen.
18 I mean, this is something that was involved in
19 some litigation?
20 MR. DANDAR: No. No. No litigation. It has
21 nothing to do with the Church of Scientology. It
22 has nothing to do with any litigation at all.
23 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't matter. You can't
24 just say "I am not going to tell you who it is."
25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it involves a privacy
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1 matter that I would invoke on behalf -- Mr. Haney's
2 behalf and this third party.
3 THE COURT: What is it? I mean, what is it
4 you're talking about? I thought this was somebody
5 you were involved in litigation with.
6 MR. DANDAR: No, I'm not involved in litigation
7 with. And it involves a third party who has nothing
8 to do with anybody here or anything --
9 THE COURT: Well, maybe I --
10 MR. DANDAR: I would rather tell you that in
11 camera, to be honest with you.
12 THE COURT: Well, the answer is no. I mean,
13 no. I can't assume just because you think that the
14 Church of Scientology is going to harass this --
15 whoever it is -- that that is going to occur. We
16 just can't have people coming in saying, "I'm not
17 telling you." There is no privacy right.
18 If you have a privilege -- you represent him?
19 Or do you represent them?
20 MR. DANDAR: No, I don't represent any of them.
21 THE COURT: Well --
22 MR. DANDAR: I represent myself. And it is
23 also relevancy. There is nothing to connect it --
24 THE COURT: Counselor, sit down.
25 You'll have to tell us who it is you are
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1 talking about.
2 THE WITNESS: Fine.
3 A His name is Bob Gordon.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q And what was the purpose of you even mentioning
6 this, that you and Mr. Dandar had the same problem? What
7 did that have to do with this? What was the purpose of you
8 mentioning that?
9 THE COURT: Well, I think it came up as to --
10 well, I don't know how it did come up.
11 THE WITNESS: I was asked why I was in
12 Clearwater that day --
13 THE COURT: That is right.
14 THE WITNESS: -- when I was served with the
15 subpoena.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Oh, the day you were served with the subpoena,
18 that was it?
19 A That is correct. Yes.
20 Q And so you and Mr. Dandar had a meeting with this
21 same person to try to work out whatever the problem was?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And Mr. Dandar had asked you to be at that
24 meeting?
25 A No. The man, Mr. Gordon, asked me to be at that
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1 meeting.
2 Q And also asked Mr. Dandar to be at the meeting?
3 A I assume so. I wanted him to be at the meeting.
4 Q Who served you with a subpoena?
5 THE COURT: Is that really relevant to this?
6 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know why Mr. Dandar
7 asked him about it to begin with.
8 THE COURT: I don't know why, either.
9 A A man. I don't remember his name.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q All right.
12 THE COURT: I don't know if there is some
13 confidentiality business. I guess there is. Some
14 lawyer is here.
15 MR. DANDAR: I just wanted to put on the record
16 he's not here voluntarily.
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q Now, in -- in the fall of 1998, you struck a deal
20 with Dan Leipold to finance the Lopez case against the
21 Church of Scientology, didn't you?
22 A No. I -- Mmm -- I agreed to loan Dan Leipold some
23 money. And I knew he was going to act as a lawyer for
24 Mr. Lopez, yes.
25 Q How did you know all that?
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1 A He told me.
2 Q How did you know Mr. Leipold at that point?
3 A You asked me that.
4 I met him at the FACTNet meeting in May of '98.
5 Q Okay. So -- so between May of '98 and whenever
6 this was -- what was this? In December of '98? When did
7 you loan the money to Mr. Leipold?
8 A Between October and December of '98. I don't
9 remember specifically.
10 Q Had you had other meetings with Mr. Leipold?
11 A I don't know if I'd seen him again between May and
12 that time or not. I don't recall.
13 Q You gave him $100,000?
14 A I gave him $10,000 to start with.
15 Q Well, how much did you end up giving him?
16 A $100,000.
17 Q All right. And -- and Mr. Leipold indicated that
18 he needed it in order to finance his case against the Church
19 of Scientology?
20 A He indicated he needed it for his business. And
21 that was one of the things he was doing. And I was willing
22 to help him with that, yes.
23 Q What do you mean, you mean one of the things he
24 was doing was going to sue the Church?
25 A He had already sued the Church.
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1 Q In the Wollersheim matter?
2 A No. In the Lopez case.
3 Q Okay. And you got a loan agreement with him?
4 A Yes.
5 Q I mean, an actual loan agreement that says
6 whatever the terms are?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And does he -- I mean, does this particular
9 agreement say he has to pay you back?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Under all circumstances? Or just if he wins the
12 case?
13 A All circumstances.
14 Q Okay. And I take it --
15 THE COURT: We don't need to go into too much
16 detail --
17 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
18 THE COURT: -- about some loan agreement in
19 some other case, do we?
20 MR. WEINBERG: No, but --
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q You understood that Mr. Leipold was essentially
23 almost exclusively devoting his practice to Scientology at
24 that time? You knew that, didn't you?
25 A No. I don't think he ever did that.
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1 Q Now, had he already -- which firm was he with at
2 this time?
3 A Mmm, Leipold, Donahue & Shipe.
4 Q Was his new firm?
5 A Mmm --
6 THE COURT: If he knows.
7 A I don't know. I know at some point he went out on
8 his own. And he was on his own in that firm when I met him,
9 as far as I know.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q And that same time period, Mr. Leipold -- you
12 hired Mr. Leipold to demand a million dollars from the
13 Church of Scientology, didn't you?
14 A I had Dan Leipold send a letter asking for a
15 refund on my behalf for the $1,200,000 I had given to
16 Scientology during my time in it, yes.
17 THE COURT: Wow. Two and a half years?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q He was your lawyer with regard to that letter, is
21 that right?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q Let me show you what we'll have the clerk mark as
24 the next exhibit.
25 THE CLERK: 213.
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q 213. Now, Exhibit 213 you authorized Mr. Leipold
3 to send to the General Counsel, Church of Scientology
4 International, on or about September 28, 1998, is that
5 right?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q And at this point, you were definitely a critic of
8 Scientology, as you would define that term, is that right?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q And do you recall that there was a series of
11 correspondence back and forth between the Church and your
12 lawyer?
13 A My recollection is that Mr. Abelson sent him two
14 letters, and he sent one more letter, so a total of four
15 letters.
16 Q And the bottom line was -- is that the Church
17 refused to refund a million dollars to you, is that right?
18 A That is correct.
19 THE COURT: Or any part of it?
20 THE WITNESS: They said if I wanted it, I had
21 to sue them.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q You had to what?
24 A Sue them.
25 Q That is what they said?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Didn't -- didn't they actually say that there was
3 a process to go through and you needed to go through that
4 process?
5 A In the first letter, that is what they said. In
6 the second letter, it was a little bit different.
7 Q Oh, well --
8 THE COURT: How much of this stuff do we have
9 to get into here? I mean --
10 MR. WEINBERG: I agree. I mean, it's obvious
11 what --
12 THE COURT: I don't know what is obvious,
13 though.
14 MR. WEINBERG: No, I mean --
15 THE COURT: If you want to go ahead and put it
16 all in, put it all in.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going into detail. I
18 was just going to mark the other letters.
19 THE COURT: All right. Is this -- all of this,
20 I'm trying to see, "Each of the below listed
21 organizations, provide a full and detailed
22 accounting," I don't know what the "below listed
23 organizations" are.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I think there is another page.
25 We can have him --
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1 THE WITNESS: I'd donated money to each of
2 those organizations.
3 THE COURT: So when you said "the below listed
4 organizations," it is those organizations that you
5 carbon-copied on the letter?
6 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: There is no other list?
8 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. WEINBERG: What did you mark them, Madam
11 Clerk?
12 THE CLERK: 214A, B, and C.
13 MR. WEINBERG: 214A is the October 20, 1998
14 letter from Mr. Abelson to Mr. Leipold.
15 214B is November 10 -- I mean, I'm sorry, 214B
16 is the October 28, 1998 letter from Mr. Leipold to
17 Mr. Abelson.
18 And 214C is the November 10, 1998 letter from
19 Mr. Abelson to Mr. Leipold.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q And can you identify those as the various
22 correspondences that went back and forth, Mr. Haney?
23 A Yes.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I offer 214A, B and C into
25 evidence, your Honor.
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1 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. DANDAR: Is 213 in evidence?
4 MR. WEINBERG: I think so. What is 213?
5 MR. DANDAR: The original --
6 MR. WEINBERG: I offer 213, as well, if I
7 could.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
10 THE COURT: Did you ever get any money back?
11 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Did you ever sue them?
14 A No, I did not.
15 Q Did you ever go through the refund process that
16 Mr. Abelson described to your lawyer?
17 A No, I did not.
18 Q Now, as I understand it from your testimony, in
19 December of 1998 you got involved in the Lisa McPherson
20 case, is that right?
21 A In December 1998 I agreed to help Ken with the
22 case. Yes.
23 Q Well --
24 THE COURT: As a consultant? Is that what you
25 mean?
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Was there a contract of some sort?
4 A There was a one-page agreement, yes.
5 Q And were you paid to do this?
6 A No, I was not.
7 Q And how -- just describe briefly how you got
8 involved. I mean, how was it you came in contact with
9 Mr. Dandar?
10 A I met with him in Clearwater. I listened to his
11 presentation of what the case was about. And I thought that
12 it was important that he have as much help as he could get.
13 Q What I meant by that, was there somebody like
14 Ms. Brooks or someone like that, Mr. Minton, that had put
15 you in touch with Mr. Dandar?
16 A No. I just sought him out.
17 Q And you learned this from the Internet? Or was
18 there some other reason?
19 A Something I had read about the Lisa McPherson case
20 obviously mentioned his name.
21 Q Now, the first thing you did when you got involved
22 was to pay the expenses for a witness to fly from Europe to
23 Clearwater to testify in December of '98. Right?
24 A Mmm, before December, there was a witness who had
25 participated in a similar isolation watch to Lisa's. And
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1 they were unable -- they were unemployed and needed money
2 for a ticket to get to Clearwater to testify. And I paid
3 for that ticket.
4 Q Right. And his name was Karsten Lorenzen, is that
5 right?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q Who approached you to pay for that ticket?
8 A He just said he couldn't come. And I offered to
9 give him the money. I asked him how much it was. He said,
10 "$500." I got his E-Mail address from Rod Keller. So
11 nobody, you know, approached me.
12 Q But -- so you weren't even a consultant at that
13 point?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q But you did attend his deposition?
16 A In December I attended the depositions of Gerry
17 Armstrong and Karsten Lorenzen, right. Yes.
18 Q And Marjorie Wakefield, correct?
19 A I don't recall that.
20 Q Now, other than attending the deposition of Gerry
21 Armstrong and Karsten Lorenzen in December of 1998, were
22 there any other depositions in this case that you attended?
23 A Yes. I attended a series of depositions the
24 following summer in Dallas with Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson
25 and --
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1 Q Lee Skelton and Sam Davis?
2 A That is right. Those four.
3 Q And is that the sum and substance of the depos
4 that you went to, the two in December of '98 and the four in
5 May of '99?
6 A I don't know. I went to some court hearings, and
7 I might have gone to some other depos. I just don't
8 remember.
9 Q Now, in addition to loaning money to Mr. Leipold,
10 you also provided funds to Vaughn Young for over a year in
11 order to work on a project to -- to try to -- to try to get
12 rid of the tax-exempt status of the Church of Scientology,
13 correct?
14 A No. Vaughn Young had -- he was living in a house
15 that was paid for by the guy that was sleeping with his
16 wife. He decided he could no longer stay there.
17 I told him he could come and stay with me. He had
18 a big dog. After a period of time, I didn't -- I was not
19 comfortable with his big dog living at our house, so I got
20 him an apartment. After he was there for a few months and
21 it became obvious he was not moving any time soon, I said,
22 "Hey, I have got tens of thousands of pages of materials and
23 books and court documents and stuff that I have acquired
24 about Scientology. Could you put these together in some
25 kind of order for me?"
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1 And he said he would. He got sick, had a heart
2 attack. Then he had cancer. And he never did it. And he
3 stayed there approximately twelve months.
4 Q And he's testified previously that you were paying
5 him $200 a week for approximately 12 months, I think. Is
6 that accurate?
7 A I gave -- I paid for his apartment and I gave him
8 $200 a week to cover his other incidental expenses, yes.
9 Q This was during 1998, do you know?
10 A I think it was the second half of '98 and the
11 first half of '99.
12 Q Okay. And did -- did his work have anything to do
13 with going to Washington to pull documents concerning the
14 tax-exempt status of the Church of Scientology?
15 A He went to several places getting documents and
16 filling in the gaps in the things that I already had. And I
17 don't remember all of the different places. He went a very
18 substantial number of places. I think he was gone two
19 months, driving around the country in his car and stuff,
20 getting things. So, you know --
21 Q You gave him a car, too, right?
22 A Mmm, I had rented a car -- well, I rented a car
23 and I owned a car. And he drove one or the other at
24 different times, yes.
25 Q When did you first meet Jesse Prince?
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1 A In August of that year, I believe.
2 Q Well, that year meaning?
3 A July or August.
4 Q What year are we talking about?
5 A Mmm, I think it is '99. I don't remember if Jesse
6 was '98 or '99. One or the other.
7 Q Do you remember the circumstances where you first
8 met him?
9 A Bob and Stacy came to discuss that curriculum I
10 spoke of before. Stacy got an E-Mail saying that Jesse was
11 trying to contact her. Stacy suggested that he come to
12 Columbus, because he was there. And he flew in that night
13 about 11 p.m. We picked him up at the airport.
14 Q But that was in '98, wasn't it?
15 A I just don't know.
16 THE COURT: He said he didn't know. If you say
17 you don't know, let's assume it is '98 and let's go
18 on from there.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q The Key West meeting took place a year later,
21 correct?
22 A Yes, it was the next summer, yes.
23 Q The Key West meeting was in August of '99?
24 A Okay. So it would have been '98.
25 Q Okay. And did you give any money to Mr. Prince?
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1 A No.
2 Q Did you give money to Mr. Oliver?
3 A Not as a gift. I did some business with
4 Mr. Oliver once, but I didn't give anything to Mr. Oliver.
5 Q You didn't give him $100,000 or thereabouts?
6 A No.
7 Q Now, you said that -- by the way, during the time
8 that you were -- well, after the May '99 depositions in
9 Dallas where you were with the family members, did you do
10 anything else on the case?
11 A I attended different hearings and spoke and such.
12 Q Did there come a point in time when you didn't do
13 anything on the case anymore?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And can you date that for us?
16 A Mmm, at the end of 2000.
17 Q All right. And was there a reason?
18 THE WITNESS: Mmm, well, I'm not supposed to
19 discuss the settlement agreement. Are you ordering
20 me to discuss the settlement agreement, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: I don't even know who you settled
22 with.
23 THE WITNESS: His name was Bryan Zwan. He's
24 the owner of Digital Lightwave.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I don't want to get into
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1 Mr. Zwan's settlement agreement.
2 THE COURT: Then don't ask the question. Back
3 off of it, because I will order him to discuss it.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q The time that you last did anything on the case
6 was in 2000 sometime, is that right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q All right. Now, in -- you said that there were
9 meetings that you attended in which the -- there was a
10 discussion with regard to amending the complaint by adding
11 David Miscavige. Do you remember that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, how many of those meetings were there?
14 A As I recall, there were four or five in a very
15 short period of time, over two or three days.
16 Q And when was the meetings?
17 THE COURT: Are you telling me you stopped
18 doing anything for Mr. Dandar because, at least in
19 part, that was disclosing the settlement agreement?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Go ahead.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q When did the meetings take -- can you date the
24 meetings?
25 A I don't recall. It would be the date of the fifth
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1 amended complaint. That was when that was happening. But I
2 don't recall the date at all.
3 Q Do you remember if it was before, or after, the
4 Key West meeting?
5 A No.
6 Q Now, do you recall where the meetings were?
7 A Yes. They were in Ken Dandar's office.
8 Q Do you remember which office?
9 A No. He moved. I don't remember -- I think they
10 were at the new office, like when he first moved.
11 Q Now, and did you do any memos at the meetings?
12 A No.
13 Q Take notes at the meetings?
14 A No.
15 Q Now, you said that Mr. Dandar, during these
16 meetings, kept asking where the evidence was with regard to
17 supporting adding David Miscavige to the case, right?
18 A He wanted to know specifically was there enough
19 direct evidence. That is what I recall him saying, direct
20 evidence. Whatever that means in legalese, I don't know.
21 But he said, "Are you sure you have enough direct evidence
22 to prove that he directed this," so to speak.
23 That was his single concern. That is what I
24 remember him repeating.
25 Q Were you looking at drafts of the fifth amended
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1 complaint? Were you-all discussing drafts?
2 A I was not looking at drafts. I don't know if
3 anybody had or not.
4 Q Well, was there discussion about the evidence to
5 support the allegation that David Miscavige had ordered Lisa
6 McPherson to die? Was there discussion about that?
7 A I would say the discussions centered around what
8 Jesse knew and what Stacy knew that would make that true.
9 That is what I recall being discussed.
10 Q Well, do you remember Jesse Prince, Stacy Brooks
11 or Ken Dandar or anyone at that meeting saying that they had
12 a shred of evidence to indicate that David Miscavige had
13 been -- had -- had ordered Lisa McPherson to -- to die?
14 A I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that they
15 claimed and discussed a very -- a very serious showing of
16 how things are done in Scientology, and that it became
17 obvious, through that discussion, that it would be directed
18 by David Miscavige -- whatever was done with her would be
19 directed by David Miscavige, because of her status as a
20 persistent red tag, which is when you have a problem and --
21 in your auditing and it does not resolve, that this goes up
22 and up the chain of command. And by the point where she was
23 running around naked in public, it would certainly have been
24 his personal concern.
25 And from what they said, I agree. I thought that
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1 made sense, from my experience. Running the local org, that
2 made perfect sense to me.
3 Q And it made perfect sense to you that David
4 Miscavige would have ordered -- sent an order out that Lisa
5 McPherson die? That made perfect sense to you, from your
6 two years' experience in the Columbus org?
7 A I didn't say that.
8 THE COURT: He didn't say that, Counsel.
9 MR. WEINBERG: No. I understand that.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q And that didn't make perfect sense to you, did it,
12 that -- that David Miscavige, as the complaint said, ordered
13 Lisa McPherson to die? That didn't make perfect sense to
14 you, did it?
15 A It only made sense to me in the context that
16 Teresa Summers, at that time, relayed to me an incident
17 where another person was actually ordered to drop their
18 body, which means die, in Scientology. And I was very
19 shocked by that.
20 Q Well, Teresa Summers told you in 1999 that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And where did you meet Teresa Summers?
23 A I had known Teresa Summers for almost ten years,
24 because her sister and brother-in-law were my wife and my
25 best friends in Scientology. So I knew Teresa through her
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1 sister.
2 Q So Teresa was at that point working as part of the
3 trial team of Mr. Dandar in August of '99?
4 A No. Teresa had contacted Mr. Dandar and done a
5 video for him, giving some evidence. And when I saw her
6 name I said, "Hey, Ken, I have known this woman for ten
7 years."
8 He said, "No, you don't." He couldn't believe
9 such a coincidence.
10 Anyway, I called her up, we got together, had
11 lunch, that sort of stuff.
12 Q She told you this person she was talking about was
13 a person who was terminally ill?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q You knew there was no evidence that Lisa McPherson
16 was terminally ill. You knew that, didn't you?
17 A I had never seen any evidence that said she was
18 terminally ill, no.
19 Q Now, at this meeting, did Mr. Dandar -- at these
20 meetings did Mr. Dandar ask Mr. Prince or Ms. Brooks or you
21 or whoever else was there what the evidence was that
22 Mr. Miscavige had ordered Lisa McPherson to die?
23 A Yes, he did.
24 Q And the evidence was what?
25 A Their experience at -- they were both highly
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1 placed managers inside of the Scientology organization.
2 Mr. Prince was the second most powerful person in the entire
3 organization. And evidence was their experience of how
4 Scientology runs and who gives orders and who follows them.
5 And based upon what they said, I thought that what
6 they said was correct.
7 Q Now, did Mr. Prince say, at the meeting, that he
8 had ever given an order for someone, on an introspection
9 rundown, to die?
10 A I don't recall that.
11 Q Did he say that he had ever been on an
12 introspection rundown, at these meetings?
13 A My recollection was that he had supervised at
14 least one, and that he and Stacy had both, at different
15 times, supervised that same one. You know, by coincidence,
16 that they had both worked on one that was the same. I don't
17 know if they had done others or not.
18 THE COURT: Counsel, it is kind of amazing to
19 me you are kind of grilling this guy. And the
20 lawyer on the case apparently thought the same
21 thing, and he's the lawyer, and he thought there was
22 enough. That is what this is about. This isn't an
23 unschooled man who apparently was swayed by
24 Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks.
25 I don't know why you are spending all this
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1 time. You heard the same thing that the others
2 heard. Mr. Dandar is the one that filed the
3 complaint. He didn't know any more than what is in
4 Mr. Prince's affidavit. That apparently was enough
5 for Mr. Dandar.
6 MR. WEINBERG: That was going to be my next
7 question.
8 THE COURT: We don't need to spend a lot of
9 time on this. This is a waste of time. It is
10 whether Mr. Dandar thought he was filing a -- filing
11 a false complaint is what is the issue here.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Did you review Mr. Prince's affidavit in the case?
14 A I only saw it after it was filed. I didn't see it
15 in that context.
16 Q And did you work on that affidavit with him?
17 A I never saw it before it was filed.
18 Q And at the meetings did Dr. Garko express
19 discomfort with regard to making that allegation that David
20 Miscavige had ordered Lisa McPherson to die?
21 A He had a very serious concern that it would link
22 them to time of trial. And also the time to get to the
23 trial, yes. So he was opposed to it.
24 Q Now, when did you disassociate yourself from the
25 Lisa McPherson Trust?
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1 A I think in January of 2000.
2 Q That was like a month after it started?
3 A Oh, I'm sorry, December 2000.
4 Q Okay.
5 A About a year later, yeah.
6 Q And you only visited the Lisa McPherson Trust four
7 or five times?
8 A If that, in that year, yes.
9 Q So you were not active in the Lisa McPherson
10 Trust?
11 A I wasn't there every day, no.
12 Q Now, you were at the Key West meeting in August of
13 '99?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And did you have anything to do with organizing
16 the meeting?
17 A I -- Mmm -- Thom Haverty invited me and my son.
18 He and his wife were going to be there. And I asked Ken if
19 he could go. And he said yes. And then I asked Jesse. And
20 he said he could go. And then a few weeks later I asked
21 Ford and Dan Leipold to come, too.
22 Q Was there anybody --
23 A So, basically, I asked everybody there was to be
24 asked after I was invited, yes.
25 Q Was there anybody else you asked that didn't come?
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1 A No.
2 Q Well, did you ask Mr. Minton to go?
3 A No.
4 Q Now, this was not just a fishing trip, was it?
5 A As far as I was concerned, it was, yeah, a
6 fishing -- it was a vacation, a vacation/fishing trip. We
7 were going to go deep-sea fishing. My son really wanted to
8 go deep-sea fishing. That is why I went.
9 Q Now, the testimony has been that there were daily
10 discussions concerning Scientology and strategy as it
11 related to Scientology cases at this Key West meeting. Is
12 that correct?
13 THE COURT: Counsel --
14 A That is correct.
15 THE COURT: -- there has also been testimony it
16 was a vacation, fishing or --
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Well, how many times did you go fishing?
19 A I think five.
20 Q You were down there five days?
21 A Well, I think I went five times deep-sea fishing.
22 Ford took my son out sometimes in a little skip boat, you
23 know, to go fishing, in addition to that. So I went five
24 times.
25 Q Were there other people that would stay back and
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1 have meetings?
2 A It wasn't so much meetings like you're talking
3 about. This was the common thing that linked all of the
4 people together, they all had interest in Scientology, they
5 had some Scientology litigation. So they -- that is what
6 they discussed. It was the common thing that linked all of
7 the people together.
8 Q And did you-all talk about the strategy of the
9 various cases, including the Lisa McPherson case?
10 A I would assume so, yes. I mean, that is -- yeah,
11 in the broad term, sure.
12 Q And was Mr. Leipold and/or Mr. Greene -- was there
13 discussion about them joining the case, helping Mr. Dandar
14 out?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Was that part of why you brought them here?
17 A It was more because Dan Leipold said, "I really
18 want to go fishing."
19 I said: "Since you are thinking about joining the
20 case, this would be a good chance to get to know Ken, see if
21 you get along, all that sort of stuff." So at the last
22 minute I asked him if he would go.
23 Q You said you weren't familiar with the
24 introspection rundown?
25 A That is right.
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1 Q And you couldn't find it?
2 A It wasn't something that was available at our
3 organization, at a Class Five organization. We didn't have
4 it in our org.
5 Q Well, did you-all have the red volumes?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Don't you -- aren't you aware it's in the red
8 volumes?
9 A No, I'm not aware of that.
10 Q But if it is in the red volumes, you obviously had
11 access to it, correct?
12 A Yes. Uh-huh.
13 Q Now, you said that you had a discussion with
14 Mr. Minton concerning money, and Mr. Minton made it clear
15 that -- that he had a way to bring his own money into the
16 United States from overseas to fund this case?
17 A Correct. He made it clear that was his intention.
18 He was kind of poking about a way to -- he was asking me
19 questions how I would do it. So I don't know if he had a
20 way or not, but that was certainly his intention.
21 Q You knew he was talking about his money?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q Did you give him some suggestions about how he
24 could do that and not have it traced?
25 A No.
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1 Q Now, Mr. Dandar asked you about the fair game
2 policy. There was no -- in the org you were in, there was
3 no fair game policy that was available to you, was there?
4 A There was no printed policy there at all. No.
5 Q You never saw a policy that said "Fair Game" or
6 "Cancel Fair Game" when you were in the Church of
7 Scientology, did you?
8 A Not inside the org, no.
9 Q Now, you said that you had -- I think you said
10 that you had some meetings or a meeting with Dell Liebreich
11 and her siblings down in Texas during the depos, is that
12 right?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q And was anybody else at this meeting other than
15 the -- Dell Liebreich, her siblings or you?
16 A I think Ken Dandar was there. And maybe Thom
17 Haverty.
18 Q All right.
19 A And maybe Michael Garko.
20 Q And was this one meeting? Or several meetings?
21 A I don't remember specifically. I just know I went
22 there to talk to him about it. And I did talk to them about
23 it.
24 Q And during this one meeting or meetings, all of
25 the family members made it clear that they did intend to
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1 donate a substantial portion of the proceeds from any
2 settlement or victory to some anti-cult group, preferably a
3 group in the name of Lisa, is that what they said?
4 A That wasn't what they said.
5 Q Well, what did they say?
6 A Dell spoke for them. And I approached it from the
7 viewpoint of being a Christian. And I simply said that I
8 didn't believe God's world was for Lisa to die to make her
9 relatives rich, and asked her opinion on that, after
10 ascertaining they were all Christians. They said they
11 agreed with that.
12 I said, "What do you think God's purpose was?" We
13 went through things like that.
14 At the end she told me they had discussed this
15 before and that they thought that the money should go to
16 help people who had been victimized by cults, that that was
17 Fannie's last wishes, and that that is what they wanted to
18 do, and that they might set up an organization in Lisa's
19 name.
20 Q And did you have discussions with the family
21 concerning -- well, strike that.
22 You had a further discussion with Dell Liebreich
23 in December of 1999 about this same subject?
24 A Yeah.
25 Q And she confirmed again that it was -- it was her
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1 intention and her family's intention to donate the bulk of
2 the proceeds or substantial portion of the proceeds to some
3 group?
4 A She confirmed that she had not committed to give
5 the money to Bob Minton or to the Lisa McPherson Trust.
6 This was a different subject, so to speak.
7 Q But she was going to contribute it to something
8 else?
9 A I didn't go over that again with her. I just
10 wanted to know that no agreement had been made to give it to
11 Bob, FACTNet or the Lisa McPherson Trust.
12 Q So you had an interest to make sure that
13 Mr. Minton didn't get the money, is that what you are
14 saying? I mean, you brought the subject up?
15 A Yes, I brought the subject up.
16 Q Because by this time, you and Mr. Minton had had a
17 falling out?
18 A No. That was a little bit later. But I just
19 didn't think that was the appropriate use of the money. It
20 didn't have anything to do with him personally.
21 Q Well, what was not an appropriate use of the
22 money?
23 A To go to an organization that was basically about
24 picketing and antagonizing and harassing. I thought it
25 should go to other groups or people who would really -- I
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1 was involved with other groups that were doing helpful
2 things. I would certainly have suggested, if there was
3 money, for them to contribute money to some of those things,
4 and others.
5 Q The meeting that you had with Dell Liebreich, Ken
6 Dandar, maybe Thom Haverty and the other siblings, was that
7 before, or after, the depositions?
8 A I don't know. It was just during that trip.
9 Q Now, have you had discussions with Vaughn Young
10 with regard to the case?
11 A I -- I'm sure it's come up at some time or
12 another, but I don't remember anything specific.
13 Q When is the last time you talked to Jesse Prince
14 about, you know, anything substantive concerning the case?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q Well, recently?
17 A Mmm, not very recently. But, you know --
18 Q Well, within the last month or two?
19 A I don't think so, no. It would be longer than
20 that.
21 Q What about Patricia Greenway? Have you talked to
22 her about this hearing?
23 A No.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I think I'm about done.
25 THE COURT: We're just waiting so we can all
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1 stop for the day so maybe I can get the orders out
2 on these tapes.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Believe me, I want to.
4 THE COURT: Because if I don't do this order
5 today, it's going to get to you-all in two weeks.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I know. I know.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q What month -- do you know the month and year that
9 you left the Church?
10 A February of 1994.
11 Q And you alleged in a lawsuit, the Digital
12 Lightwave lawsuit, I think you alleged that you leaving the
13 Church had to do with a disagreement concerning your wife,
14 is that correct?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q Now, are you affiliated with Craig Branch?
17 THE COURT: Is this a -- a person, Craig?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q You know who Craig Branch is, correct?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q He runs the Apologetics Resource Center?
23 A Resource Center, yes.
24 Q He's a person that has been down here in
25 Clearwater with you and other places, in essence speaking
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1 out against what he calls cults, including Scientology,
2 correct?
3 A Craig, his job at the ARC, is Christian
4 Apologetic, which is defending the faith, Christianity, and
5 part of that is speaking to people about other religious
6 movements, NRM, New Religious Movements, including
7 Scientology --
8 Q It also includes --
9 THE COURT: Were you done, sir, before he
10 interrupted you?
11 A Yes. I go to speak at different times with him,
12 yes.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q And those movements he speaks out about --
15 against -- and I guess you have, as well -- against -- it
16 includes Mormons, Jews, Unitarians and other religions?
17 True? Buddhists? Hindus?
18 A I have never gone with him and spoke about any of
19 those groups, nor has he spoken about any of those groups in
20 my presence.
21 Q Now, you know what The Way to Happiness is?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Do you remember getting commended with regard to
24 having contributed to dissemination with regard to The Way
25 to Happiness?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And The Way to Happiness is this little booklet
3 here?
4 A That is right.
5 Q And do you remember that in the booklet various
6 things are mentioned, including don't do anything illegal,
7 is that right?
8 A It -- yes, it says several different homilies in
9 there.
10 Q It says don't lie, right?
11 A Yes.
12 THE COURT: Let me see that book a minute.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, sure.
14 THE COURT: I remember looking at that --
15 MR. WEINBERG: It's in evidence.
16 THE COURT: I know it is. Well, my copy is
17 somewhere. I marked it. It is in evidence.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
19 THE COURT: So you would agree whatever it says
20 in the book, that is the book we're all talking
21 about, right?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
23 MR. WEINBERG: We'll mark this as our next
24 exhibit. I'm almost done.
25 THE CLERK: 215.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: 215.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Is this the commendation that you got with regard
4 to The Way to Happiness?
5 A Yes.
6 Q July 9, 1993?
7 A Yes.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I move that into evidence, your
9 Honor.
10 MR. DANDAR: No objection. What number is it?
11 THE COURT: 214?
12 THE CLERK: 215.
13 MR. WEINBERG: 215, I think.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q Now, did you violate these basic precepts when you
16 were in the Church that are in The Way To Happiness?
17 A Mmm, we -- we as individuals and as an
18 organization did lots of things that were deceptive or
19 downright deceitful. Yes.
20 Q But I asked you, did you?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, are you familiar with policies with regard to
23 reporting in the Church?
24 A Yes.
25 THE COURT: I can tell you're going to be going
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1 on too long.
2 MR. WEINBERG: No. This is my last question.
3 THE COURT: I'm sorry, it's not your last
4 question. We're taking a break.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I don't mind taking a break, but
6 I'm right at the end.
7 THE COURT: Go on.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Two things to show him.
9 Then I don't have any more questions.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Are you familiar with the policy on knowledge
12 reports and staff member reports?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. WEINBERG: All right. We'll mark those as
15 next exhibits. And those are all my questions.
16 MR. DANDAR: I think he has to identify them
17 first.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
19 THE COURT: I can't even tell you what they are
20 yet.
21 THE CLERK: 216.
22 MR. WEINBERG: That is one.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Knowledge reports will be
24 216.
25 And staff member reports will be 217.
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1 And he doesn't have to identify them because
2 these are both HCO policy letters. I mean, he can
3 identify them.
4 Are you familiar with these policy letters?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I move them into evidence.
7 Those are all my questions.
8 THE COURT: All right. Any redirect?
9 MR. DANDAR: I have just a couple hours' worth.
10 I'm just kidding! I have two questions.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 (A discussion was held off the record.)
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Haney, how much money did you contribute to
16 The Way to the Happiness -- The Way to Happiness
17 dissemination project?
18 A Approximately $175,000.
19 Q And where did that $175,000 go?
20 A To buy The Way to Happiness books.
21 Q Where did those books go?
22 A I understand most of them are sitting in
23 somebody's garage. They were supposed to be disseminated to
24 schools, but nobody followed through on the program and they
25 just sat.
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1 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have.
2 THE COURT: Anything further?
3 MR. WEINBERG: No. I'm fine.
4 THE COURT: Thank you, sir, for coming. You
5 may be excused.
6 Counselor, thank you for coming. I hope you
7 enjoyed your trip to Florida.
8 MR. ROGOVIN: I did. Thank you.
9 THE COURT: Our weather hasn't been perfect
10 but --
11 MR. ROGOVIN: Better than ours.
12 MR. DANDAR: I would like to remind the Court
13 about Jesse Prince being able to talk to me over the
14 two-week break.
15 THE COURT: Yes, let's go ahead and deal with
16 that.
17 What I would like to do is go out, first of
18 all, and see -- I had Sue redraft that order. And I
19 want to look at it, because I want to try to get
20 that out so you-all can maybe -- what I have done is
21 direct Mr. -- Mr. Keane to prepare the summary,
22 because I'm hoping it is on his computer. If it is
23 not on the computer, we'll have to redo the whole
24 thing.
25 So if I can maybe take a little break, I can
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1 see if she's ready. If not, I'll have a redraft and
2 maybe I can give you all that order.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Good idea. Why don't we take a
4 break.
5 THE COURT: We'll take a break and then come
6 back.
7 On Mr. Prince, I will tell you what my
8 inclination is. My inclination is the same as it
9 has been for every other witness. And that is that
10 it's a long break. That the person that may have
11 some reason to talk to them about something other
12 than their testimony not be prohibited from doing
13 so. I think I afforded every witness that. I think
14 Mr. Prince is still Mr. Dandar's expert consultant.
15 I think it would be grossly unfair, since I'll be
16 gone for a two-week period, to prohibit him from
17 speaking to Mr. Dandar.
18 So unless you can show me some law that said I
19 would be abusing my discretion and somehow cause
20 this trial to be mistried no matter what the
21 verdict, I have full intention of treating
22 Mr. Prince, especially since he just barely got
23 started -- I don't know how much he testified, maybe
24 an hour.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I think it was longer than that.
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1 THE COURT: Was it?
2 MR. WEINBERG: A couple hours.
3 THE COURT: A couple hours? Okay.
4 MR. WEINBERG: But, you know, I don't -- you
5 order what you order.
6 THE COURT: No, it's not my order. I want to
7 hear what you have to say why I should treat him
8 differently and why I should deny Mr. Dandar his
9 either expert or consultant during a
10 two-and-a-half-week period.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, is he -- my first
12 question, is he back being a consultant to
13 Mr. Dandar?
14 THE COURT: As far as I'm concerned, he is and
15 has been and will be until Mr. Dandar has somebody
16 else. I don't think he has anybody else.
17 MR. DANDAR: I previously announced --
18 THE COURT: I think Mr. Prince comes on and off
19 the witness list, based on whether or not he can
20 find somebody else who he thinks will make a better
21 witness without all of the baggage that Mr. Prince
22 has.
23 When those witnesses go away, for whatever
24 reason they go away, many of which I have heard in
25 here, Mr. Prince goes back on the list. So I will
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1 never consider Mr. Prince off the list until this
2 trial, if it takes place, is over, because I have a
3 feeling he would be off again and on again and off
4 again and on again.
5 MR. WEINBERG: My request is, is that -- is
6 that it be clear that he not speak to anybody
7 else -- I mean, other than Mr. Lirot, obviously --
8 THE COURT: Right.
9 MR. WEINBERG: -- about it, particularly
10 Ms. Greenway and the other people that have been
11 attending the hearings here, and that he continue
12 the way in which, you know, he's apparently supposed
13 to have been the last few weeks, other than talking
14 to Mr. Dandar about reviewing other people's
15 testimony and stuff like that. I don't think that
16 would be appropriate.
17 THE COURT: Under the rule -- he's still under
18 the rule. In other words, he's not supposed to
19 discuss what is going on in this hearing with any
20 other witness. It is just when he testifies he's
21 normally precluded from speaking to anyone,
22 including all of the lawyers, yourself, Mr. Dandar,
23 what have you.
24 I simply think, since we'll be absent a
25 two-week period, he happens to be on the stand, he's
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1 Mr. Dandar's expert, he's Mr. Dandar's consultant,
2 it would be inappropriate for me to prohibit
3 Mr. Dandar, as this case is getting close to trial,
4 from speaking in any respect about -- to his expert.
5 MR. DANDAR: Miss Greenway is a volunteer
6 consultant for me and does talk to me about things.
7 THE COURT: Is she going to be a witness in the
8 case?
9 MR. DANDAR: No.
10 THE COURT: Are you going to call her?
11 MR. WEINBERG: No.
12 THE COURT: Then you can talk to her.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Jesse Prince can talk to
14 Patricia Greenway?
15 THE COURT: Absolutely. The rule says you are
16 not supposed to speak to any other witness about
17 your testimony.
18 MR. WEINBERG: So what is --
19 THE COURT: That is all the rule is. It's so
20 one witness can't influence another witness's
21 testimony. That is it.
22 MR. WEINBERG: But what -- but what -- I
23 understood the rule somewhat differently, that -- I
24 mean, you can't circumvent the rule by, you know, by
25 having -- putting somebody in between a witness or
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1 whatever to -- to talk to the witness. I mean,
2 Ms. Greenway --
3 THE COURT: I know what Mr. Prince's testimony
4 is going to be. For heaven sakes, if you don't, I
5 would be absolutely flabbergasted.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not arguing with you.
7 THE COURT: I would have known what his --
8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have the strength to
9 argue with you.
10 THE COURT: There is no point in it. I can
11 hardly wait to get through it. I could almost do
12 his direct, your cross, and when all is said and
13 done, I'll still have it in my lap to decide how to
14 ferret it out.
15 MR. WEINBERG: You might make it easier for me.
16 THE COURT: I don't care who he talks to. I
17 know --
18 MR. DANDAR: Could it be because you have an
19 affidavit from him?
20 THE COURT: It could be. It could be I expect
21 he'll testify consistent with that affidavit and his
22 deposition of over a thousand pages. I don't think
23 it is going to change much.
24 But Ms. Greenway, of course, should not be
25 disclosing to him anything that went on in the
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1 hearing --
2 MR. DANDAR: Oh, no.
3 THE COURT: -- in here. And he's, of course,
4 not to speak to any other witness about his
5 testimony, because that could influence another
6 witness.
7 All I am saying is I'm going to -- the rule is
8 still in effect. Whatever the rule means to every
9 other witness it still means to him.
10 I'm going to allow him, however, to speak to
11 Mr. Dandar, even though his testimony is going on
12 during this break.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
14 THE COURT: I am going to ask you, Mr. Dandar,
15 however, that you not speak to him directly about
16 the testimony that has already taken place --
17 MR. DANDAR: Exactly. Right.
18 THE COURT: -- at all. In other words, that
19 testimony is that testimony, and you ought not speak
20 to him about that. Okay?
21 MR. DANDAR: That is fine.
22 THE COURT: Fair enough?
23 MR. WEINBERG: We'll see you after the break?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just want to clarify one
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1 point, your Honor. It will take me 30 seconds.
2 Your Honor said the issue is whether
3 Mr. Dandar -- this is a legal point and I just
4 wanted -- so that our position is clear.
5 You had suggested the issue is whether
6 Mr. Dandar thought he was filing a false complaint.
7 And we've argued -- and it is in our May 14 memo and
8 we'll argue again -- the issue is not that, but
9 whether he had an objective good faith evidentiary
10 basis to make the allegations. He could have
11 thought it was true --
12 THE COURT: You might argue that to me, but you
13 are certainly never going to get me to disqualify a
14 lawyer on the basis of the fact that summary
15 judgment is granted or not. That is what summary
16 judgments are for.
17 Your legal position may be one I don't adopt,
18 Counselor. I understand your legal position
19 perfectly fine. That doesn't mean I'm going to buy
20 it. Okay?
21 We'll be in recess now for 15 minutes, and I
22 hope to come back with an order.
23 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, may we take up Mr. Haney
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1 being re-served with a subpoena?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Rogovin has to catch an
4 airplane flight.
5 MR. ROGOVIN: Your Honor, Mr. Moxon served
6 Mr. Haney with a subpoena outside the courtroom for
7 July 2nd to testify and bring documents to Florida
8 on July 2nd.
9 Mr. Haney is a resident of the state of Ohio,
10 city of Columbus. No notice was given to -- to
11 Mr. Dandar regarding this. And we think this
12 motion -- or this subpoena should be quashed.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. ROGOVIN: We're asking the Court now. They
15 then withdrew the subpoena, then followed Mr. Haney
16 downstairs and attempted to serve him in front of
17 the courthouse.
18 Then just a few minutes ago, Mr. Moxon said,
19 "We'll withdraw it," or words to that effect, "And
20 we'll file a motion for commission."
21 So, frankly, we don't know where we stand. But
22 we would feel better if this were quashed because we
23 don't think Mr. Haney has to come to Florida to
24 testify, and we don't think it was proper to serve
25 him when he was under subpoena to testify at this
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1 hearing.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Moxon?
3 MR. MOXON: I gave him a cover letter
4 indicating that we would be happy to schedule it at
5 any convenient time. We had to pick an arbitrary
6 date. Obviously, Mr. Haney just arrived today. He
7 was willing to come down to Florida pursuant to
8 Mr. Dandar's subpoena.
9 And I also told Mr. Rogovin we would be happy
10 to go to Ohio, if necessary, but it would be easier
11 to do it this way than through an out-of-state
12 commission, to have to litigate it here and then
13 litigate it in Ohio again.
14 THE COURT: What requirement is there that an
15 out-of-state deponent who doesn't want to come for a
16 deposition has to?
17 MR. MOXON: Well, I guess it's the same
18 Mr. Dandar just --
19 THE COURT: No, there is a little bit of
20 difference because this is a hearing. In other
21 words, I'm not going to Ohio.
22 MR. MOXON: Okay. Well, as I indicated to him,
23 if you are in the state -- my understanding, the
24 general law is if you are in the state you can serve
25 somebody in the state and have them come. There may
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1 be requirements with respect to paying their airfare
2 or whatnot, but I told him whatever is convenient.
3 I just served it to get the ball rolling.
4 THE COURT: Did you clear this date with
5 Mr. Dandar?
6 MR. MOXON: No. I told Mr. Dandar, again, I
7 picked an arbitrary date and said, "Let's get
8 together now." The date is up in the air. I don't
9 care what the date is.
10 THE COURT: The subpoena will be quashed.
11 MR. ROGOVIN: Thank you.
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge --
13 THE COURT: However, the deposition may be
14 taken, but it should be taken in Ohio where he
15 resides, and they should be coordinated with
16 counsel --
17 MR. MOXON: Great.
18 THE COURT: And, I don't know, is he a witness?
19 MR. DANDAR: No, he's not a witness to the
20 wrongful death case.
21 THE COURT: Oh.
22 MR. MOXON: Well, he just testified today,
23 though, he's got considerable knowledge with respect
24 to what happened at LMT over that whole year period
25 and formation of it and knowledge about this -- his
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1 position --
2 THE COURT: I'm going to tell you what. You
3 are not to depose him until after I determine
4 whether the wrongful death case and the counterclaim
5 are to be done at the same time.
6 Number one, I have got a motion to dismiss in
7 front of me. If that is granted, you don't get his
8 deposition, period.
9 Number two, if I decide that the motion to
10 dismiss is to be denied, we have a trial scheduled
11 right now only on the wrongful death. He has no
12 information that I could see about that unless
13 Mr. Dandar wanted to call him for one of those small
14 things he said he's not going to.
15 So unless you want to call him, in which case,
16 you know, that is a different story.
17 MR. MOXON: No, I think you are right about
18 that.
19 THE COURT: Okay. And then if I should decide
20 that I want to consolidate, if -- if I don't dismiss
21 the case and if I consolidate the counterclaim with
22 the wrongful death, then I dare say that this case
23 will not most likely go to trial in August, in which
24 case you'll have time to take his deposition.
25 MR. MOXON: Fair enough. Thank you.
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1 THE COURT: So at the appropriate time -- I
2 think that he does have information concerning the
3 counterclaim. Discovery is something that might
4 tend to lead to relevant evidence.
5 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we cancelled ten
6 depositions for the wrongful death case, many of
7 which are expert witnesses of the defense. I
8 haven't been able to get anyone to reschedule those.
9 Hopefully, we'll be able to talk tomorrow or try to
10 get them rescheduled. That takes precedence over
11 Mr. Haney and --
12 THE COURT: Did you not hear me? Were you just
13 getting ready to talk and didn't pay any attention
14 to what I said?
15 MR. DANDAR: I don't think --
16 THE COURT: Obviously you were ready to talk,
17 you had it in your mind what you were going to say
18 and, therefore, you didn't listen to me.
19 I just told him he couldn't take the deposition
20 until after either the trial of the wrongful death
21 took place, which is scheduled for what now?
22 MR. DANDAR: Mid-August.
23 THE COURT: Mid-August, which is suspected to
24 go two months, unless I consolidated the
25 counterclaim. And if I did that, I dare say you-all
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1 won't be ready to go in August. One side or the
2 other will move for continuance, it will be
3 continued, then he can schedule it.
4 I think Mr. Haney may have some information
5 regarding the counterclaim. I think if he wants to
6 take the deposition, he can do that. I'm giving the
7 wrongful death depositions priority, and I quashed
8 the subpoena, and ask him not to reschedule it until
9 all those decisions are made.
10 MR. MOXON: Understood.
11 THE COURT: Then I think even though he's in
12 Florida -- but I'm not sure of that law, but --
13 MR. MOXON: I'm not sure, either.
14 THE COURT: But you said you would go to Ohio.
15 And I think that is the place to go.
16 MR. ROGOVIN: Thank you.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Now, obviously if he has
18 plans to come down here for something, there is
19 going to be a deposition taken, he wants it here,
20 that can be worked out.
21 MR. DANDAR: All right.
22 THE COURT: Now, I have something else. First
23 of all, I'm going to give you-all copies of this
24 order. I want you to read it, because it was kind
25 of hastily put together. I want to be sure it made
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1 sense. This is another one of these copies to all
2 counsel where you get several, and I hope you'll --
3 MR. MOXON: We'll distribute them.
4 THE COURT: I need one for my own file. Can
5 you just take -- there we go.
6 Madam Clerk, this is the original of this
7 order. This is not to be filed as evidence in this
8 case. It is to be filed with the clerk's office.
9 THE CLERK: Okay.
10 THE COURT: Do you understand? It is to be
11 filed in the case. Here is the order, and with the
12 order is an order sealing this part of this order.
13 It is to be sealed here. It is to be filed with
14 this.
15 This is not to be sealed.
16 This is to be sealed. Okay?
17 THE CLERK: Yes.
18 THE COURT: I -- see if you can understand
19 this. My secretary said she understood it. So --
20 by the way, the word "videographer" I may not have
21 spelled right, because it came up on my computer as
22 a misspelled word with no suggestion on how to spell
23 it right.
24 MR. DANDAR: You have it correct.
25 THE COURT: Is that what it is?
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1 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Apparently it's a new word.
3 MR. DANDAR: Maybe from the Watergate era.
4 THE COURT: Does that cover everything?
5 MR. DANDAR: It does. What about are you going
6 to address separately or do we just go with the
7 transcript of the written documents? E-Mails?
8 THE COURT: No. Mr. Moxon said he would
9 prepare that.
10 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay.
11 MR. MOXON: I'll prepare it when we get the
12 transcript. I'll give a copy to Mr. Dandar.
13 THE COURT: Yes. If you can't get that done by
14 tomorrow, I'll have to do my own because I want it
15 done before I leave town.
16 MR. MOXON: Okay.
17 THE COURT: If you need the transcript, I mean,
18 I know what I said, I can do it myself. I just
19 thought maybe you could get it done.
20 MR. DANDAR: All right.
21 MR. MOXON: We'll do it for you, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. LIROT: Judge, one additional matter, if
24 this is an appropriate time to bring it up. This
25 was relative to the discussion this morning where
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1 Mr. Dandar discussed concern in the documents taken
2 off the LMT hard drive --
3 THE COURT: Yes?
4 MR. LIROT: -- that had the Internet and E-Mail
5 addresses of individuals that apparently approached
6 the LMT for counseling, or some concerns with their
7 experience with the Church.
8 I had written Mr. McGowan a letter. He wrote
9 me back and said he tried not to -- to ensure that
10 none of that really was turned over to anybody,
11 trying to be sensitive of the other people's privacy
12 rights.
13 If I could present the two letters, Judge.
14 Obviously in light of the scheduling concerns
15 that we have, I don't know if there is anything that
16 can be done, but Mr. McGowan suggested that perhaps
17 if we look at that material with some greater
18 scrutiny to make sure none of the individuals that
19 are clearly not witnesses in this case and clearly
20 would not have any knowledge or information that
21 would be discoverable in this case, if the Church
22 and Church's counsel could turn over or return that
23 until the Court had a chance to look at that, make
24 sure the individuals' identities are not divulged to
25 any third party or to the Church, just to verify
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1 that that information is not misdirected -- I'm not
2 casting any dispersions on the Church. Just in an
3 abundance --
4 THE COURT: You are prattling. And you have
5 given me letters and you said, "Please read the
6 letters," and now you are talking. So let me read
7 the letters and then you can talk.
8 MR. LIROT: I will cease prattling.
9 THE COURT: Which of these letters come first?
10 Yours?
11 MR. LIROT: My letter went to Mr. McGowan
12 earlier today. And I do have a copy of that.
13 THE COURT: Okay. You mean there is another
14 one?
15 MR. LIROT: Just one from me. And I tried to
16 make copies, and I didn't want to disturb the Court
17 with the noise. So as Mr. McGowan responded, my
18 office faxed it to me.
19 THE COURT: I have two letters. Which is
20 first?
21 MR. LIROT: The one from me to Mr. McGowan.
22 THE COURT: So there are only two total
23 letters?
24 MR. LIROT: Two total letters.
25 THE COURT: I have got it now. Okay.
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1 Okay. Well, it seems to me like what he said
2 here is you let him know what you're talking about
3 and he'll file a motion.
4 MR. LIROT: Well, is it possible for the Court
5 to take possession of those documents pending that,
6 obviously in light of the fact that we're not going
7 to be here for another two weeks?
8 THE COURT: Do you think for one minute that if
9 the Church of Scientology had some interest in these
10 E-Mail addresses, that they don't already have them?
11 So, you know, could I? Yes. Do I want to? No.
12 You know, am I going to ask these people who
13 have been at this hearing all this time to go home,
14 get them, bring them back here tomorrow when we're
15 not going to be in session? The answer is no.
16 If there is something that you want to be
17 returned, file your motion. I will hear it at the
18 appropriate time. And if something should be
19 returned, I'll specifically state what it is and
20 have it returned and direct them at that time not
21 to -- to use it.
22 Like I said, if I suggest to them it ought to
23 be removed from their pile and thrown away, they'll
24 have to do that. If they don't, something will
25 happen, they'll use it inadvertently sometime. So
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1 they'll know that. Okay?
2 MR. LIROT: Very good.
3 THE COURT: All right. So -- I don't know what
4 Mr. McGowan is talking about here about that "Ken --
5 for the first time I learned that Ken Dandar was to
6 view whatever I turned over to Mike Keane. After I
7 reviewed documents, that --" I don't know what he's
8 talking about. I just didn't order that.
9 I ordered that Mike Keane, on any document that
10 he saw that had Ken Dandar's name to or from, should
11 be turned over to me for review.
12 MR. LIROT: Right.
13 THE COURT: Then I think later he kind of says
14 that. So you might make sure that --
15 MR. LIROT: We'll make sure he gets a copy of
16 the order.
17 THE COURT: This is you. I haven't sent this
18 order to Mr. Keane yet, so this is for your
19 protection. You might make sure that Mr. Keane
20 understood what I told him and tell him an order is
21 forthcoming.
22 MR. DANDAR: I will.
23 THE COURT: I doubt he misunderstood because I
24 explained the purpose of it was I wanted him to be
25 sure that even though there may be some relevancy,
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1 that if there was no relevancy, that it was
2 protected. So he agreed. So I think he
3 understands. Okay?
4 MR. DANDAR: All right.
5 THE COURT: I would ask the Church not to
6 destroy or -- well, I don't care if you destroy
7 them, that is perfectly all right. But don't
8 disseminate, I should say, the information that you
9 have received from Mr. Keane to anyone beyond the
10 lawyers in the Church, in the event I should order
11 the return of those documents.
12 MR. MOXON: Very good.
13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think I have the only
14 copy and it is in my briefcase, and I don't intend
15 to be disseminating it to anyone.
16 THE COURT: Good. And I believe that Mr. Moxon
17 was going to give me, at some point in time, the 20
18 documents you thought that you had taken --
19 MR. MOXON: Yes.
20 THE COURT: Then at that point, hopefully all
21 this will be under good control.
22 Did you-all understand this order all right?
23 MR. MOXON: Yes. Fine.
24 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
25 THE COURT: It is not the best I have ever
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1 done. But if it gets it done, that is fine.
2 Now, I have here -- this was delivered today in
3 the mail -- an amicus curiae brief for entry in the
4 case file. This is from Mr. Keith Henson.
5 Does anybody know anything about it?
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: I can address it briefly, your
7 Honor, though to fully address it might take a
8 little while. And my suggestion is --
9 THE COURT: How do you know what it is?
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Because he posts it on the
11 Internet and warns us he's going to do it so we know
12 it is coming.
13 THE COURT: Oh.
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: The issues are a little
15 complicated. My suggestion is we take it up when
16 you come back.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. LIEBERMAN: But my request is it not be
19 filed until we have a chance to take it up.
20 THE COURT: Fair enough. I gather -- he sent
21 me three of them, one of which says "Original." So
22 how about -- I guess this is a copy for each side?
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: That would be terrific.
24 THE COURT: I'll give each of you a copy. If
25 it's not the same thing, save them, bring them back
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1 to me. But there are three of them. One says
2 "Original." I'll hold on to it. We can address it
3 after the break.
4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I mean, what we're going to
5 suggest, your Honor, is that you not permit it, you
6 not file it. Maybe Mr. Dandar may well agree with
7 it when he takes a look at it. I don't know. But I
8 think we should take it up when you come back.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: If there is a question, it
11 would take me about ten minutes to give you
12 background. And I know you want to leave. And I
13 know that I want to leave. And I know all of the
14 other lawyers want to leave.
15 THE COURT: What I really hoped is I would have
16 time to get some stuff done today, but the hour is
17 getting late.
18 MR. DANDAR: I withdrew my two hours of
19 questioning.
20 THE COURT: Yes, you did.
21 MR. MOXON: Could we have the same agreement
22 with Mr. Dandar agreeing not to copy or distribute
23 this document, since there are issues involved
24 there?
25 THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Dandar, until I take this
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1 up. Now, of course, if it is already on the
2 Internet --
3 MR. MOXON: Well, all of it is not on the
4 Internet. The attachments aren't.
5 THE COURT: If you just hold this, don't
6 distribute it until such time as I take it up.
7 MR. LIROT: We'll do so.
8 MR. DANDAR: We will do that.
9 THE COURT: Please, somebody, remind me. Let
10 me see, Madam Clerk, so I gave you an original
11 order, right?
12 THE CLERK: Yes.
13 THE COURT: And a -- something sealed?
14 THE CLERK: Yes.
15 THE COURT: I have some knowledge reports here.
16 Oh, okay, I remember those were filed. I'll take
17 those home tonight, and if I can read those I will
18 be up to date.
19 If anybody has a couple extra notebooks for the
20 clerk --
21 MR. MOXON: What size?
22 THE COURT: I guess this size (indicating). I
23 have got some. I just know that I need to go
24 through them and see what I can throw out because
25 you all have given me plenty. I'll give you -- if
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1 you'll lend her some, I promise you when this is
2 over, I'll give you all of the ones I have back.
3 MR. MOXON: Okay.
4 THE COURT: I just don't know which ones I'm
5 done with and -- and I need some of them.
6 MR. MOXON: Do you need them now? Or tomorrow?
7 THE COURT: Next week. What do you have that I
8 still need to file? I'm not going to worry about
9 this during the two-week hiatus. I might if I move
10 into my new house, my study --
11 MR. FUGATE: Break it right in.
12 THE COURT: -- I might break it in, read some
13 of this transcript or something.
14 MR. FUGATE: Bless your heart.
15 THE COURT: Probably not, though. Okay,
16 everybody can be at ease.
17 Mr. Moxon, if you get that order done --
18 MR. MOXON: I'll do it tonight.
19 THE COURT: Give it to me, because I'll be in
20 in the morning.
21 MR. MOXON: I'll have it delivered first thing
22 in the morning.
23 THE COURT: Wonderful. Assuming it is okay. I
24 don't know what we'll do about the list, because
25 you-all have to kind of agree on the attached list.
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1 And I don't imagine you can agree on it.
2 MR. MOXON: I guess we'll have a conference
3 with Mr. Keane, the three of us, or four of us, and
4 see if we can work that out.
5 THE COURT: Okay. I would say that the list --
6 I just think this, Mr. Dandar. The list needs to be
7 broad enough to cover people that might be relevant
8 to the counterclaim, which would certainly include
9 the witnesses that have testified here and people
10 like them.
11 MR. DANDAR: But it should be on matters that
12 concern the counterclaim or the Church of
13 Scientology, but not private matters.
14 THE COURT: Not necessarily. You see, a
15 statement of a witness can be a statement that could
16 be unrelated to Lisa McPherson. It could be
17 unrelated to the counterclaim. It could be a
18 statement that says, "I despise the Church of
19 Scientology and I will do anything in my power to
20 ruin it." That could be said at a toast somewhere.
21 MR. DANDAR: That --
22 THE COURT: They are then entitled to that.
23 They are entitled to use it if that person
24 testifies.
25 MR. DANDAR: But, again, that involves
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1 Scientology. If it involves my sister going to the
2 doctor, and this is what she has to do --
3 THE COURT: That is true. That is true.
4 MR. DANDAR: All right.
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: We have no interest in that, by
6 the way.
7 THE COURT: No. I'm sure they don't.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 THE COURT: But, again now, we're going to have
10 to remember that the -- the person going to make the
11 decision on what is going to be turned over will
12 have to be Stacy Brooks or her counsel.
13 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Because, remember, if that -- that
15 order is to direct them to comply with the orders of
16 the Court. And I suppose since the latest order was
17 Judge Beach's order, that order ought to be
18 attached, maybe, if that was the latest.
19 MR. DANDAR: That is the latest order.
20 THE COURT: Except it speaks about the -- about
21 this case. Of course, you know, this case could
22 mean more than -- this case right now is the
23 wrongful death and the counterclaim.
24 MR. MOXON: Judge Quesada's order was a little
25 different. It said, "Use the witness lists plus
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1 anybody else that is manifestly relevant" or
2 something like that.
3 THE COURT: But his order has been superseded
4 by Judge Beach's so his order doesn't count any
5 more. Judge Beach was sitting as special master.
6 That was a later order. Judge Quesada's order has
7 been superseded. Do not follow that order. Okay?
8 MR. DANDAR: So we'll attach Judge Beach's
9 order then.
10 THE COURT: Yes. And then, as I said,
11 Ms. Brooks was the one that will make that decision,
12 or her lawyer.
13 And, you know, you can put in there that -- why
14 should I tell somebody who has been required to turn
15 somebody over how to do it?
16 MR. DANDAR: But it should only be the people
17 on the witness list. Mr. Moxon added the search
18 list, the new list, to include my consultants,
19 myself, my brother. And that should be eliminated.
20 Patricia Greenway, who is not a witness on anybody's
21 list. Ursula Caberta, who is not a witness on
22 anyone's list.
23 THE COURT: How do you know?
24 MR. DANDAR: I know what the lists are. We
25 already have a filed list of witnesses for trial.
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1 They have a filed list.
2 MR. MOXON: We have not filed a witness list
3 for the counterclaim, so --
4 THE COURT: Well, you see, you don't
5 necessarily get those documents. You get those
6 documents, and the reason why a Court would compel
7 those documents, is for impeachment purposes more
8 than anything else. So I don't know you can just
9 list a witness and get a bunch of documents.
10 MR. MOXON: Yeah, or potentially other
11 discovery purposes. Somebody, for example, that
12 works for LMT makes a statement, we wouldn't
13 necessarily call them as a witness. But if they
14 said something that goes directly to one of the
15 issues here, then obviously that would be relevant.
16 THE COURT: Well, Stacy Brooks is the one that
17 will have to decide. So try to get a list that
18 you-all can agree on, get me the order. After
19 tomorrow, you'll not get me for a couple days.
20 And, quite frankly, if you don't -- if I don't
21 have it with a list that you have agreed to, I'll
22 have to do my own order. My order will simply order
23 them to comply with the order of Judge Beach.
24 MR. MOXON: Maybe that is the simplest thing to
25 do.
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1 THE COURT: I think it is. And then just put
2 in there in the event of -- of -- you know, in the
3 event they're unable -- she or whoever it is, is
4 unable to determine, turn them over to the Court.
5 But I don't want them all is what I'm saying. I
6 don't want to be un -- inundated with a bunch of
7 stuff off the Internet that I could care less about
8 reading. Everything I read on here last night I
9 could care less --
10 MR. DANDAR: I agree.
11 THE COURT: -- about. It takes hours and hours
12 of my time, and it is stuff that really isn't
13 relevant to this case at all.
14 MR. DANDAR: Except for the work product
15 E-Mail.
16 THE COURT: Well, I could have cared less about
17 that. I couldn't even understand the first thing.
18 And the other thing was simply a work product. But
19 it isn't any big deal. It just shouldn't have
20 been -- shouldn't have been given.
21 MR. MOXON: Okay.
22 THE COURT: Okay? All right, we'll see you all
23 in a couple weeks.
24 (WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 4:00
25 p.m.)
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
7
I further certify that I am not a relative,
8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
10
11 DATED this 19th day of June, 2002.
12
13
14 ______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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