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                                  CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11


                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
           5    Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,

           7              Plaintiff,

           8    vs.

                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,


          15    PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
                CONTENTS:           Testimony of Ben Shaw.
                DATE:               June 13, 2002.  Afternoon Session.
                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
          19                        St. Petersburg, Florida.

          20    BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
                                    Circuit Judge.
                REPORTED BY:        Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
          22                        Deputy Official Court Reporter,
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.



2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 12 Organization. 13 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization. 17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 19 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 20 Organization. 21 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 22 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 23 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 24 25
3 1 THE COURT: All right. You may call your next 2 witness. 3 MR. DANDAR: I don't have a witness to call 4 right now. I was going to call Jesse Prince but -- 5 but I think it is rather late. 6 But what I would like to do then, I can call -- 7 I want to call Ben Shaw from the Church of 8 Scientology. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 THE BAILIFF: Has Mr. Shaw been sworn? 11 THE COURT: I don't think so, not at this 12 hearing. Maybe a long time ago. 13 (Oath administered to the witness by the 14 Court.) 15 THE WITNESS: I do. 16 THE BAILIFF: The witness is sworn and seated, 17 your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Thank you. 19 ________________________________________ 20 BEN SHAW, 21 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 22 and testified as follows: 23 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Shaw.
4 1 What is your current post? 2 A I'm the commanding officer of the Office of 3 Special Affairs of Flag. I'm a director of the Church of 4 Scientology Flag Service Organization. 5 Q And who is your senior? 6 A My -- at the Church of Scientology Flag Service 7 Organization, I don't have a specific senior. I'm a member 8 of the board. The chairman of the board is indirectly my 9 senior. Ecclesiastically, I report to the commanding 10 officer of Office of Special Affairs International. 11 Q And who is that? 12 A It's Kurt Weiland. 13 Q Who is Mr. Weiland's senior? 14 A That is Mike Rinder. 15 Q And does Mike Rinder have a senior? 16 A Not -- no, not ecclesiastically. He's a member of 17 the watchdog committee, which is the more senior management 18 entity in the Church. 19 Q Who is the most senior person on the watchdog 20 committee? 21 A It is the chairman of the watchdog committee. 22 Q Who is that? 23 A Actually, I don't know right now. 24 Q Are you aware of any papers being removed from the 25 PC folders of Lisa McPherson?
5 1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. 2 Mr. Shaw, for many years, has been the -- been my 3 client and has been intimately involved in every 4 stage of this litigation. And whatever information 5 he has derived would be our work product. 6 THE COURT: He's the corporate representative 7 of the defendant. He can be called as a witness and 8 he can be asked questions. 9 MR. WEINBERG: About -- about -- 10 THE COURT: Whether he was aware of whether or 11 not anything has been destroyed from the PC folder, 12 unless you destroyed it and he learned it because 13 you told him. 14 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, nobody destroyed 15 anything from the PC folder. 16 THE COURT: I didn't think so. 17 MR. WEINBERG: And I didn't destroy anything 18 from the PC folder. 19 THE COURT: I didn't think so. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I just want to make clear, we 21 heard a lot of objections throughout this trial 22 about work product privilege and all that. The man 23 on the stand here is my client. 24 THE COURT: I understand that. And he is a 25 defendant, therefore, in this lawsuit.
6 1 Let me make it real clear, this case gets to 2 trial, he can be called and he can be examined in 3 great depth about everything. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Not about conversations with me. 5 THE COURT: Well -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Lawyers in the case. 7 THE COURT: That wasn't what he was asked. He 8 was asked a question, very simple question, as to 9 whether or not he was aware anything was ever 10 destroyed from Lisa McPherson's PC folder. That is 11 an appropriate question here, and it would be an 12 appropriate question at trial, and I would be amazed 13 you objected to it. 14 MR. WEINBERG: No, but I -- I didn't object to 15 the specific question. I wanted to lodge an 16 objection as to the whole process and to make sure 17 that -- that it was clear that we were -- we -- as 18 to Mr. Shaw, this was our client, and we were 19 asserting -- you know -- and will assert the 20 attorney-client privilege, work product privilege, 21 as to various things Mr. Dandar -- 22 THE COURT: You are treating me like I'm some 23 sort of lunatic. This is the corporate 24 representative. The corporate representative of a 25 corporation is called in almost every trial I
7 1 preside over. And I surely don't need a lawyer 2 lecturing me -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not. 4 THE COURT: -- or lecturing the opposition as 5 to what questions they can ask and not. Sit down. 6 Do you have an objection? Stand up and raise it. 7 If that was an objection, it was overruled. And if 8 that was in the form of instruction to Mr. Dandar, 9 to me, neither one of us needed it. 10 MR. WEINBERG: It is not an instruction. 11 THE COURT: Whatever it was, I didn't need it. 12 Thank you very much. And I don't think Mr. Dandar 13 needed it. 14 Continue. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Are you aware of any paper being removed from Lisa 17 McPherson's PC folders? 18 A Well, I have to answer like this because I was not 19 aware of basically anything about this case until December 20 of 1996. I was -- I came to Clearwater then and I 21 essentially started to assume my functions. So everything I 22 learned has been throughout the process of investigating 23 this case, because this is, as you probably know, one of the 24 main things I have been doing for quite a period of time. 25 I do know from the deposition of Lacey Spencer,
8 1 who was the assistant for Alain, that there was a period of 2 time when she was getting -- collecting reports from those 3 people who were helping care for Lisa, that she kept them in 4 a separate file, and she testified that there were some of 5 them that she shredded, not knowing that anyone wanted to 6 keep them. I don't know what dates there were. I believe 7 there were some from the beginning part of her stay at Ft. 8 Harrison. But, again, she wasn't specific and couldn't 9 recall specifically. 10 Aside from that, I don't know of anything. 11 Q Isn't it true that the program that 12 Mr. Kartuzinski wrote for the introspection rundown for Lisa 13 McPherson in November/December '95 is not in her PC folders? 14 A Mmm, I don't know that for certain. I know that 15 Alain testified to that in his deposition. And he, I 16 believe, said he thought there was a program that he did for 17 an introspection rundown. But I don't know if it is in 18 there or not. 19 I can't tell you, because there are a lot of 20 papers in these 25 or so folders. 21 Q Wouldn't you agree if an introspection rundown 22 was, in fact, done or scheduled or -- what is the right 23 word -- for Lisa McPherson in November and December of '95, 24 a program per policy must be written and placed in her PC 25 folders?
9 1 A Well, the way I will answer it is yes, but 2 primarily the major part of the introspection rundown, aside 3 from Step 0 and 00, are auditing. That is the content of 4 what goes into the PC folder. 5 Step 000 is not, in fact, auditing, it is part of 6 the program and it is the religious activity, but it's not 7 auditing itself. So you don't have the work sheets, you 8 don't have the -- the paper and administration you would 9 have in the normal auditing. So I can't say what Alain 10 would have done. I just don't know. 11 Q Was the Office of Special Affairs involved in Lisa 12 McPherson since the moment she arrived at the Morton Plant 13 emergency room on November 18, 1995? 14 MR. WEINBERG: You are asking for his personal 15 knowledge? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. He's commanding officer of 17 OSA here in Clearwater. I'm asking for his personal 18 knowledge. 19 A Again I'll tell you, based on my investigation of 20 the case and my discovery of which you participated in as 21 well to a large degree, I know that Humberto Fontana, who 22 was a staff member in the Office of Special Affairs at the 23 time, actually in the -- in the social reform branch, was 24 alerted to the fact Lisa was in the hospital. 25 Social reform branch is the branch of my office
10 1 which handles human rights activity, reform of the 2 psychiatric profession. We are very much -- 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q The question is yes or no. 5 A I have to give you background. 6 Q I need -- 7 THE COURT: Well, you need to answer first, 8 then you can give the explanation. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Is the answer yes? 12 THE COURT: Is the answer yes, they were? Or 13 no, they weren't? 14 A Yes. And here is the explanation. Because the 15 way it appeared in some of the earlier testimony of Mr. -- 16 Mr. Franks, there was some sort of bypass. And I don't see 17 that was the case whatsoever, from my investigation of this 18 case. 19 Mr. Fontana was there -- he was alerted a 20 Scientologist was in the emergency room of the hospital and 21 that she was in a psychotic condition. 22 He was, from -- and I know this from his testimony 23 and also talking to him -- extremely concerned about her 24 being admitted to the psychiatric ward. 25 He went to the emergency room and, in fact, I know
11 1 he brought some publications that are used by the Church, 2 the citizens commission on human rights, which is the 3 antipsychotic branch of the Church, to brief the emergency 4 room doctor and Dr. Price, who was the psychiatric nurse, on 5 our views on psychiatry so that they understood clearly that 6 the Church, Scientologists, and Lisa as a member of the 7 Church, would have been very opposed to psychiatry. 8 That was the reason my understanding of why he 9 went there. Mmm, and ultimately she went back to the Church 10 with -- 11 THE COURT: You are well past now his question, 12 which was whether or not they were involved from the 13 beginning. And you indicated yes and why. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Was Int Management involved with Lisa McPherson's 17 psychotic condition, as she writes about in her OWs in 18 February of '95? 19 A Mmm, the thing that I saw yesterday, which I 20 believe I have seen before but I took notice when you 21 brought it up yesterday, was I don't know -- to answer your 22 question, to my knowledge, no. I don't know what she was 23 referring to in her OW write-up when she wrote, because she 24 was referring to something back in February of 1995. 25 My understanding is she did not have a psychotic
12 1 break until June or July of that year. Mmm -- 2 Q So you don't know? 3 A I don't know. To my knowledge, the answer is no. 4 Q Based upon your knowledge of the policies of the 5 Church of Scientology, under what circumstances would Int 6 Management get involved in someone having a psychotic break? 7 A Mmm, well, if you are referring to here in 8 Clearwater? 9 Q Here in Clearwater. 10 A I can say I don't know of any circumstances. I do 11 know that part of my responsibility would be to make sure 12 that any kind of situation like that was handled to the best 13 result for the person involved to make sure the person was 14 cared for. 15 I -- I -- I think probably the highest it would 16 go would be me. Otherwise, it would be somebody who was 17 responsible for the care of the person, where the person was 18 on services if that happened, if the person was preclear, or 19 if the person was a student, the people who are immediately 20 supervising that person's course or as a case supervisor or 21 the PC would be the immediate person responsible. 22 If something went out of control, I would step in 23 and deal with it. 24 Q And is OSA also Department 20? 25 A The Office of Special Affairs is Department 20 of
13 1 the organizational chart which has been in existence since 2 1965. 3 Q Is it true that public and staff members are 4 required, per policy, to report a PTS Type III directly to 5 RTC? 6 A Mmm, to answer your question -- well, I have to 7 give you a little bit of information because certainly a 8 report should be done. Okay? 9 Where it goes is probably going to be up to the 10 staff member's understanding of who should know about it. 11 I do -- I'm aware of the newsletter which you 12 have -- which you have given to the Court which is the 1996 13 issue, I believe which refers to matters which are of 14 concern to RTC. 15 And, yes, PTS Type III is one of the situations 16 which RTC would like to know about from -- and that is from 17 an inspection function, which is what RT's function is. And 18 that report would go to the report's officer, RTC. 19 I can tell you from my knowledge of the Church and 20 activity in the Church, probably the RTC office gets about 21 5,000 reports a week. 22 THE COURT: I'll bet you are going a little 23 fast for my court reporter. Slow it down. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 25
14 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q It's not an option, Mr. Shaw, it's a requirement 3 that all PTS Type III be reported to RTC because it is an 4 RTC concern? 5 A Mmm, again, Mr. Dandar, I can only answer that 6 from my knowledge of what actually happens. 7 RTC has requested that that, among many other 8 things, be reported to RTC because it is an inspection task 9 or inspection function. They want to know about it if 10 something like that does happen because it is definitely 11 important. It goes to the RT reports officer. And it would 12 be reviewed from an inspection function as to the 13 significance of it, no matter whether it is from Buffalo org 14 or Flag. 15 Q What I want to hand you -- this is too big to mark 16 as an exhibit, it is the only one I have, it is an original 17 color copy of KSW News. 18 In the middle of KSW News is the "Keeping 19 Scientology Working." And it talks about what we already 20 marked in evidence. But this is a lot easier to read since 21 it is an original. 22 "Reporting is a must, no options," correct, "to 23 RTC, PTS Type III"? 24 A Absolutely. Yes. As I said, this is definitely 25 something that RTC has asked to be reported, among many
15 1 other things. As you can see on the page, there are 2 probably about 75 different areas which RTC is concerned 3 with, and certainly would be a matter that would want to be 4 looked into. They would want to look into it, from my 5 understanding. 6 Q And in the inside of this KSW News we have a very 7 nice picture of David Miscavige whose first title is captain 8 of the Sea Org and chairman of the board of RTC. Correct? 9 A Mr. Miscavige is the chairman of the board of RTC. 10 That is where he derives the totality of his authority in 11 the Church. 12 Q Doesn't that say "Captain of the Sea Org"? 13 A It says, "Captain, David Miscavige, Chairman of 14 the Board, Religious Technology Center." 15 There are many captains in the Sea Org. And that 16 has no significance in regard to his authority. 17 Q I am corrected. He's right. It just does say 18 "Captain." It doesn't say "Sea Org." 19 But Mr. Shaw, there is no captain in the RTC, 20 there is no corporate office called captain, is there? 21 A No, Mr. Dandar, that is his rank in the Sea Org. 22 I have a rank. I happen to be midshipman. Many people have 23 ranks in the Sea Org. There are also many captains. I 24 respect them all. It is an honorary position in the Church. 25 His entire authority of the Church is derived from his
16 1 position as Chairman of the Board of the Religious 2 Technology Center. 3 Q Did you -- 4 A In fact, you know, he has complete authority -- 5 ecclesiastical authority over anyone in the Church from that 6 position. 7 Q Do all organizations within the Church of 8 Scientology have a head? 9 A Mmm, generally speaking, yes. 10 Q Is there a head of the Sea Org? 11 A That is not -- not a specific organization, 12 Mr. Dandar. As I said, that is a fraternal group, per se. 13 It's an honorary society, maybe like the Jesuits or 14 something like that, I'm not sure how to compare it to 15 another religion. But it's not an organization, per se, 16 that runs an activity. 17 There are organizations which I refer to 18 throughout the world of the Church. In Clearwater there is 19 Flag Service Organization, which is that facility -- 20 THE COURT: You are going way too fast. I can 21 hardly keep up with you with my ears. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Mr. Shaw, did you hear Mr. Franks when he said 25 that the Sea Org mission can go into any organization, take
17 1 it over and manage it until it gets back on track, so to 2 speak? Those are my words, but I'm just summing up what he 3 said. Did you hear him say that? 4 A I heard him say that, yes. 5 Q Is he correct? 6 A Would you like me to explain it? 7 Q No. Yes or no? Is he correct? 8 A He's correct, but you need an explanation to be 9 able to understand. 10 Q Okay. 11 A The -- a mission in the Sea Org comes back from 12 the origin of the Sea Organization when it was first 13 established by Mr. Hubbard in the late '60s, early '70s. 14 And it was your original management structure of the Church. 15 And it was started from a small group of people 16 that were assisting Mr. Hubbard on the ship in his research, 17 and eventually it evolved into a management structure. 18 During that time period, the corporate structure 19 of the Church also evolved. 20 THE COURT: I have to stop just for a second. 21 I kind of have to wonder why it is that all this 22 matters. You didn't get service over Mr. Miscavige. 23 He's not, therefore, a defendant in this case. And 24 so whether or not Mr. Miscavige directed something 25 to be done or whether he didn't direct something to
18 1 be done, or whether, if he did it, he did it through 2 RTC or through the Sea Org or whether he didn't, 3 what difference does it make? You don't have 4 Mr. Miscavige. 5 MR. DANDAR: I agree with you 100 percent. But 6 they made it part of their motion to dismiss the 7 case. 8 THE COURT: What? 9 MR. DANDAR: That I alleged that David 10 Miscavige was involved in what happened with Lisa 11 McPherson. He's not a party. That is why I don't 12 know why we're doing all this. 13 THE COURT: Well, I do, because in your 14 pleadings -- in your pleadings, paragraph whatever 15 it is, you allege that he ordered end cycle, he 16 ordered her dead. That is why it is here. 17 Quite frankly, what -- it wouldn't matter to me 18 if he ordered it or Alain Kartuzinski. That is the 19 issue, is it ordered as far as damages are 20 concerned. 21 I mean, quite frankly, the Church presumably 22 would be responsible for their agents and any 23 damages that were attributable to their agents. I 24 have not heard anybody say that Mr. Kartuzinski, 25 Ms. Johnson or Mr. Houghton were not agents of the
19 1 Church of Scientology. 2 So I mean, the person you sued and the person 3 who you have jurisdiction over is Flag. Now, if 4 Flag doesn't have any money, in case you get a 5 judgment, and that is why you are trying to bring 6 the Sea Org into it, save it for another day. 7 MR. DANDAR: Judge, when I -- when I got the 8 wrong address and I couldn't serve him, I gave up on 9 Mr. Miscavige. You didn't see me go out and try to 10 hunt him down, find him out in the middle of the 11 California desert where they say he lives now. I 12 didn't do that. I gave up on it. 13 Of course, because of that I'm faced with that 14 judgment in Texas after Judge Moody denied their 15 fees and here I am. I don't care about David 16 Miscavige. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Well -- 18 MR. DANDAR: I'm go on record saying that. 19 THE COURT: It would matter if, in fact, you 20 were trying -- we were trying the counterclaim as to 21 whether or not that was an allegation you made 22 without basis, I suppose. 23 For right now, that is separate from the 24 wrongful death. I'm still looking at trying the 25 wrongful death first, unless somebody even tries to
20 1 persuade me. Nobody yet has given me anybody. 2 Maybe nobody cares. Maybe they do. 3 But for right now, for this hearing, I'm not 4 sure really what difference it makes. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. Thank you. I'll go 6 on. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Mr. Shaw, tell us how the Church of Scientology -- 9 THE COURT: Let me give this to you. I'm sorry 10 but I had this course book up here and I'm afraid it 11 is going to get lost with all my other books. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Mr. Shaw, how did the Church of Scientology get 15 their hands on my work product letter to Stacy Young and 16 Vaughn Young dated May of 1997? 17 A Mmm, I actually don't know. I know that I 18 received a copy from Los Angeles. But I also -- my 19 understanding is it was given by Stacy Brooks to us. So I'm 20 not even sure -- I just don't know. I know that we got it 21 from Stacy Brooks here locally. That is where I got it. 22 Q When you say you got it from Los Angeles, does 23 that mean you got it from Michael Rinder? 24 A No. You know, I -- I just don't know because it 25 was in our -- in my files, something I hadn't even paid much
21 1 attention until we got it from Stacy. 2 Q Was it in your files before you got it from Stacy 3 Brooks? 4 A Mmm, yeah, I believe so. My understanding -- 5 again, I'm not giving you personal experience because I 6 don't have firsthand knowledge of this, but I think it was 7 turned over by Vaughn Young in discovery in another case, in 8 deposition, in the FACTNet case, I believe, and I have to 9 research that to know that for sure, sometime ago, actually. 10 Q So Mr. Rosen took Vaughn Young's deposition in the 11 FACTNet case, right? 12 A I'm not sure. 13 Q And if it was turned over by Vaughn Young in a 14 deposition in the FACTNet case, which has nothing to do with 15 this case, that would be marked as an exhibit, though, at 16 his deposition. Correct? 17 A I -- I don't know. I'm telling you what I think. 18 I mean, I haven't -- I haven't sat down and figured it out, 19 but I believe that is what the case is. 20 Q But when you got it, you got it from Los Angeles. 21 Correct? 22 A Right. 23 Q And then after you got it from Los Angeles, is 24 that when you discovered it was already in your file? 25 A No. No. No. No. What I'm saying is that I had
22 1 not paid much attention to it until a copy was gotten 2 recently in the recent documents which were obtained through 3 Stacy and Bob. 4 Q Well, Vaughn Young will be here Monday so I guess 5 we'll ask -- 6 THE COURT: Remember what Ms. Brooks said. 7 This is really no different than what she said. She 8 may have turned it over. But, quite frankly, she 9 thought they had it already. That would be exactly 10 consistent with what he said. 11 MR. DANDAR: True. If Vaughn Young turned it 12 over in a deposition. 13 THE COURT: Or some other way. He said he 14 doesn't know how he got it, but he got it from 15 Ms. Brooks, who said she turned it over. Apparently 16 he had it in his file, he thinks it came from Los 17 Angeles. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Mr. Shaw, do you recall, about six months after 20 Lisa McPherson died, there was another young lady who was 21 PTS Type III at the Church of Scientology here in Clearwater 22 and flown back to Denmark where she was kept in an apartment 23 until she got better? Do you recall that? 24 A Do you know the year? 25 Q '96.
23 1 A '96? I recall that from the discovery in this 2 case and my investigation of it, yes. I wasn't here at the 3 time. 4 Q Now, was Alain Kartuzinski busted because of Lisa 5 McPherson's death? 6 THE COURT: Is that the word for it in the 7 Church of Scientology? 8 MR. DANDAR: I heard it -- I heard Mr. Franks 9 say that. 10 THE COURT: That sounds like a military term, 11 demoted or -- 12 THE WITNESS: It's a slang term, your Honor. 13 "Demoted" would be the proper term. 14 THE COURT: Let's use "demoted." 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Demoted. I'm sorry. I stand corrected. 18 A I don't believe that he was demoted immediately 19 following that. But I do know that sometime in the period 20 after her death it was one among many factors that resulted 21 in him being removed from any position in the technical 22 field and put into a post where -- it was similar to janitor 23 post, he was being a laundry man. 24 Q And did it, in part, have to do with Lisa 25 McPherson?
24 1 A Yes, it did. 2 Q And to get demoted, he had to go through a 3 Committee of Evidence? 4 A I don't know it was a Committee of Evidence. I 5 know in a deposition he testified he had a Committee of 6 Evidence, and I think he said it had to do with a number of 7 factors. 8 And my inquiry is -- I understand that -- that -- 9 because his Committee of Evidence was having to do with 10 something entirely different from Lisa McPherson because he 11 also had problems in training of students, because senior CS 12 is also responsible for all of the quality of training. And 13 that was also concurrent, found to have a lot of trouble. 14 So I believe that was what the comment was about. 15 And I think he also said that privately the 16 chairman of the Committee of Evidence took up with him the 17 Lisa McPherson matter and said, "You know, you have serious 18 problems with this alone," and it's not something that they 19 took up as part of the Committee of Evidence, though. 20 Q Right. He testified his Committee of Evidence had 21 nothing to do with Lisa McPherson. Do you recall that? 22 A I recall him saying it. But I think -- and I 23 believe he also testified that the chairman took it up with 24 him privately as a matter of -- that he needed to deal with 25 this.
25 1 THE COURT: Must have, because otherwise I 2 wouldn't have assumed that when I was asking those 3 questions. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 THE COURT: The only thing I read is 6 Mr. Kartuzinski's -- I think that is the only 7 deposition I read that would have dealt with that, 8 so it must have been something he said that led me 9 to believe that at least in part, I think you are 10 right -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 12 THE COURT: -- it was not entirely, but in some 13 fashion he admitted in his deposition that somehow 14 his demotion was related, in part, to something that 15 went on in the Lisa McPherson case. 16 I don't know what a Committee of Evidence is 17 now, I didn't know it then, and maybe it is not 18 important enough for me to know. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Is it like a trial in the Church of Scientology? 21 A It's a justice procedure within the Church where 22 there is a committee of three or more persons, and there are 23 formal charges presented which are ecclesiastical charges. 24 And they actually investigate. And then if they decide that 25 the -- they are investigated by the interested party who is
26 1 present during all of the interviews of the witnesses, by 2 inspection of evidence, and they make a recommendation based 3 on their determination as to guilt or innocence on the 4 charges, and they submit that to a more senior authority to 5 review. And if it is authorized, then it is published. 6 Q Now, isn't it true the reason why you didn't 7 produce the Committee of Evidence for Mr. Kartuzinski is 8 because it had nothing to do with Lisa McPherson? 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you didn't do what? 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q I requested production of the Committee of 12 Evidence of several people, one is Mr. Kartuzinski, and the 13 Church did not produce that because they said it had nothing 14 to do with Lisa McPherson. 15 A I believe -- the original request on that, yes. 16 That is correct. 17 Q The one I did in this hearing a week ago? 18 A I don't know for sure what -- if that was your 19 request because of our Committee of Evidence with regard to 20 Lisa McPherson, then that is correct, that is why it wasn't 21 produced. 22 Q And your predecessor, Brian Anderson, the chief 23 person of OSA while Lisa McPherson -- when she died on 24 December 5 of '95, he was never subjected to a Committee of 25 Evidence, either, on Lisa McPherson, was he?
27 1 A That is correct. 2 Q Was there anybody -- 3 A He did -- he did lose his post over it. 4 Q Without a Committee of Evidence? 5 A That is correct. 6 Q Was there anybody who was subjected to a Committee 7 of Evidence because of Lisa McPherson? 8 A Mmm, I don't believe so. And if you want, I could 9 explain to you. I know there was an extreme amount of 10 concern because of the legal considerations, and there were 11 actions taken to deal with individuals involved in the 12 ecclesiastical lines of the Church. 13 But there was concern by doing investigations 14 concurrent with what counsel was doing and what was being 15 done by counsel, and I think -- this is my understanding 16 because I was not here again for that year -- that the 17 people who were involved in dealing with those individuals 18 decided not to do any public Committees of Evidence, which 19 is a public procedure within the Church. 20 Q And do you know why Mr. Kartuzinski twice in 21 under-oath interviews with the police, and Janis Johnson 22 once in an under-oath interview with the police, lied and 23 said Lisa was not involved in any religious services, she 24 was merely a hotel guest? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to how Mr. Shaw
28 1 would know why. I mean, they were deposed and asked 2 that question by Mr. Dandar. And they explained 3 why. 4 THE COURT: Mmm, I don't know what the 5 objection is. I'm trying to think of what it is. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I guess just competence. You 7 know, he can give our side if that -- 8 THE COURT: Obviously there has been -- and I 9 believe I read it, too, where Mr. Kartuzinski and 10 Ms. Johnson have explained why they lied to the 11 State Attorney. 12 Do you know of anything different from what 13 they told you? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, it wasn't 15 the State Attorney. It was the Clearwater Police, 16 early on. 17 THE COURT: Clearwater Police. 18 THE WITNESS: The initial police interviews. 19 Your Honor, I was at their depositions. I have 20 spoken to both of them. I have spoken -- I don't 21 have any explanation. 22 I can give a more complete explanation, but I 23 don't know if you want to listen to that. 24 THE COURT: I don't. But they have not told 25 you something different from that?
29 1 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q The bottom line is they did because they wanted to 4 protect the Church of Scientology. Correct? 5 A Well, no, it's not correct. If you want me to 6 give a better explanation, I will, but I don't think you 7 want it. 8 MR. DANDAR: Just one minute. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Do you know of any reporting, either 12 telephonically, telex, fax, any manner whatsoever going to 13 David Miscavige while Lisa McPherson was at the Scientology 14 property from November 18, '95 to December 5 of '95? 15 A Absolutely not. I know that for a fact because I 16 have investigated thoroughly every single file, every report 17 I could ever file related to this case. We have turned 18 everything over to you, both you yourself, and during the 19 police investigation we turned it over to the police. That 20 is the answer. 21 Q When Mr. Hubbard writes that a Scientologist must 22 protect the source, isn't he talking about the heads -- the 23 head of the Church of Scientology? 24 A No. 25 Q What --
30 1 A I'm not sure where you are quoting from. 2 Q You haven't -- you don't recall Mr. Hubbard 3 writing that, "Protect the source"? 4 A No, actually, I don't recall it. I have never 5 heard that. 6 Q Is there anything close to that? I may not be 7 phrasing it properly. 8 A You'll have to give me a reference because I'm not 9 sure what you are talking about. 10 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have. 11 THE COURT: Can you tell me, because I don't 12 know and I haven't read the discovery on this, I may 13 have asked but I can't get them to agree, what is it 14 in the discovery, if I were to read it, that I would 15 learn that Mr. Kartuzinski did as far as who he 16 received any authorization from or who he reported 17 to? 18 I think I asked this the other day of somebody, 19 and they may have told me, but I don't remember what 20 it was. Could you tell me again, please? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can, because I actually 22 looked into it after you asked that question, and I 23 looked in his deposition. 24 And he said he reported it verbally to Debbie 25 Cook.
31 1 THE COURT: Who is Debbie Cook? 2 THE WITNESS: She's what we call the captain of 3 the Flag Service Organization. And she's also a 4 director of the corporation, along with myself. 5 She's the one who is responsible for the services, 6 all of the services, at Flag that are delivered to 7 parishioners and the public. 8 THE COURT: Is Flag a separate org? 9 THE WITNESS: Flag is an acronym. Flag Service 10 Organization is a corporation. 11 THE COURT: That is a corporation? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 13 THE COURT: And who is the head of Flag? I 14 mean, who would be the corporate president, chairman 15 of the board, whatever it is? 16 THE WITNESS: The chairman of the board is 17 Debbie Cook. 18 THE COURT: So she would be the top person at 19 that time at Flag? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: So he was underneath her? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. But you have to understand 23 she also -- in addition to the corporate structure 24 where we have directors -- and I'm currently 25 director and Debbie is director and chairman of the
32 1 board -- is there is an organizational structure. 2 And her job was commanding officer of the Flag 3 Service Organization. My job right now is 4 commanding officer of the Office of Special Affairs 5 for Flag, which is a separate function from what she 6 does. 7 She's in charge of the main activity that we do 8 here. She has probably a thousand staff in her 9 organization. 10 Alain was one of her juniors. Alain was the 11 senior CS and that is a -- it's a very senior 12 technical position in the Church. And he has other 13 persons between her and him. 14 THE COURT: He does? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: There are people in between? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: But he -- he, in essence, bypassed 19 them and went to her with this case? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe in his testimony 21 he also said he spoke to a couple of the other 22 people between her and him, but because he is the 23 most senior technical person in the Church, he has 24 pretty much of a free rein to go to Debbie -- he 25 would have at that time. There is a different
33 1 person there now. 2 But that is a respected, important position of 3 the senior case supervisor. And so I believe that 4 he thought that if that was something that she 5 should have known about, he would have told her 6 about it, or should have told her about it -- there 7 may have been other people he told about it, too, 8 I'm not sure. But I believe that is his testimony 9 he told her about it. 10 THE COURT: Has she been deposed? 11 THE WITNESS: She's been interviewed by the 12 State Attorney. 13 THE COURT: She's not been deposed by 14 Mr. Dandar? 15 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 16 THE COURT: Would it be fair to -- for me to 17 ask you whether or not you have talked to her to see 18 if she reported it to somebody? Or was she the top 19 of the line, so to speak? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, aside from talking to her 21 at the time of the State Attorney investigation -- 22 THE COURT: Slow down because you are going too 23 fast for the court reporter. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 25 I have spoken to her about it. And I also have
34 1 seen her testimony with the State Attorney. 2 And her testimony is that she did not report it 3 to anybody outside of Flag. 4 Now, I know that there are other people at Flag 5 knew about the fact that Lisa was here at that time. 6 Brian Anderson, who was in my position at that time. 7 THE COURT: He would have been the top OSA 8 person at that time? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: He had some -- he was aware she 12 was here. His testimony -- and from my interviews 13 with him -- he had basically knowledge that there 14 was somebody who was Type III who was getting an 15 introspection rundown and who was on the base. 16 And I believe he had no active involvement in 17 doing anything about it until it was too late. She 18 died. 19 THE COURT: So your investigation, whether 20 under discovery or not under discovery, by that I 21 mean whether Mr. Dandar was deposing that person or 22 not, your investigation has revealed that the top 23 person in -- I want to say -- the entire Church 24 structure, if that makes any sense, at that time it 25 was -- this was reported to was Debbie Cook who was
35 1 the head of Flag? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, the only other thing I know 3 is that in my office we have a function which is a 4 data function where we collect data on anything that 5 we feel is of interest to the safety or security of 6 the Church, PR matters, legal matters. And we do a 7 report to the Office of Special Affairs 8 International, a weekly report to International, to 9 keep them informed. 10 When I was investigating this case to find out 11 what reporting was done, I had a computer expert 12 come in and go into our computers, all of the 13 stand-alone computers in my office, computerized 14 system for the entire Church. 15 And we found -- I found two reports from that 16 time which had a small entry from the girl -- her 17 name was Annie Mora, who was in charge of the data 18 function in my office at that time, which indicated 19 that Lisa was here, she was not doing well, she had 20 a psychotic break, she was getting introspection 21 rundown. That was one entry. I don't recall the 22 exact date. I believe it was around Thanksgiving. 23 The second report had to do with the fact that 24 the person whose car she ran into, the truck, it -- 25 she ran into when she had her auto accident, Mmm, he
36 1 was demanding to get some insurance, and she wasn't 2 around, and had gone to her apartment and somebody 3 who was a roommate of hers, member of the Church, 4 came to our office and said, "Hey, Lisa needs to 5 handle this." 6 I know it sounds inconsequential to what the 7 events were at the time with regards to Lisa, but 8 that was the subject of the report. 9 You have to understand this report is 10 basically -- that was like one or two sentences 11 each. And it is part of our regular report which 12 is -- at that time -- we don't do it this way 13 anymore -- at that time maybe 50 entries a week of 14 different things that we consider that we were 15 dealing with or that that office was dealing with. 16 And this was one thing that was a concern to us 17 that we were watching -- or -- or they were watching 18 at the time, because Lisa was there, she had a 19 psychotic break, and she was getting introspection 20 rundown. 21 It would be extremely unusual -- it would not 22 happen now. It would be extremely unusual for 23 something like that to occur then, which is why it 24 would have been something that our office at that 25 time sent up in their report, and it was sent in
37 1 weekly report along with -- which then goes to the 2 data office in the Office of Special Affairs 3 International, along with every other church in the 4 world, some 60 churches. 5 There is a certain degree of valuation of the 6 data of that level. And from what I have been able 7 to understand, there was no particular significance 8 put on that report at OSA Int. I'm not saying there 9 shouldn't have been. But at that time I think 10 basically it went into the file with the weekly 11 reports. 12 THE COURT: So you have not found anything 13 where OSA Int reported it any further? 14 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 15 THE COURT: Okay now, on the opposite end of 16 that, down reporting/up reporting. Down reporting, 17 have you found anything where anyone -- anyone 18 higher than Ms. Cook, I guess, made any -- maybe she 19 didn't, I don't know -- up -- let's say anybody 20 higher than Mr. Kartuzinski gave any direction on 21 what to do in this particular case? 22 THE WITNESS: No. The answer to your 23 question -- there were other people who had 24 discussions with Alain. I believe Alain was the one 25 who was responsible and was the one who gave
38 1 directions. 2 Now, there were other people who spoke to him 3 or who, I believe, he was seeking help from. 4 THE COURT: Ms. Johnson? 5 THE WITNESS: Ms. Johnson. Mmm, the -- it just 6 slipped my mind -- there was somebody else who 7 was -- in the general area where Ms. Johnson was in. 8 I think Dave Houghton, the dentist, who Alain 9 consulted as to what kind of soporific to give her 10 to calm her down. Alain was uncertain. You recall 11 the first prescription was Valium that David Minkoff 12 gave, and Alain disagreed, he thought it should be 13 something lighter. Chloral hydrate is a lighter 14 soporific. 15 And there is definitely some uncertainty on his 16 part as to what to do. But he was the one making 17 decisions. 18 My discussions with Debbie Cook, she was told 19 about it and she assumed that he knew what he was 20 doing. Our -- but that is what I know at this 21 point. 22 THE COURT: So Ms. Cook, based on your 23 investigation, made no direction as far as medical 24 treatment or introspection rundown or anything like 25 that?
39 1 THE WITNESS: No. In fact she wouldn't 2 normally have because Alain was higher trained than 3 her. Even though she does have training as an 4 auditor, the senior CS are generally relied upon as 5 the top authority on what to do technically with 6 somebody. 7 THE COURT: So he was higher than she as far as 8 training in the introspection rundown, auditing, 9 what have you? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: So she wouldn't tell him what to do 12 regarding that? 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Did you find anybody outside 15 of Flag who had any direction, told anybody in Flag, 16 whether it was OSA, Mr. Kartuzinski, Ms. Cook, 17 anybody outside of Flag have any interference, any 18 direction of any sort? 19 THE WITNESS: Not during the time Lisa was here 20 at Flag until the 5th of December. There was no 21 outside input whatsoever. 22 THE COURT: From the time she arrived until the 23 time she was taken to the hospital and pronounced 24 dead, there was no one outside of Flag giving any 25 direction? Is that what you're telling me?
40 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 2 THE COURT: Okay. And that would -- if I were 3 to read all of this stuff, you have probably given 4 me a little extra, but I wouldn't read anything 5 different? 6 THE WITNESS: No, you wouldn't. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 THE COURT: Thank you. 10 MR. DANDAR: I have one question. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Mr. Shaw, to follow up the Judge's questions, you 15 are saying that the commanding officer of OSA here at Flag, 16 Captain Debbie Cook of Flag; the senior CS, Kartuzinski, of 17 Flag; the manager of the MLO at Flag; and the chief of 18 security at Flag -- all of those people violated the strict 19 policy of not reporting a PTS Type III to RTC? 20 A Mr. Dandar, I tried to point out a few times that 21 what you are reading was written in 1996. If you recall, 22 this incident occurred in December of 1995. That may give 23 you a hint as to why it was written. 24 Q What about the command channels of Scientology 25 written by Mr. Hubbard?
41 1 MR. WEINBERG: What about them? 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Doesn't that apply to reporting matters of concern 4 to RTC? 5 A I'm not sure what -- 6 THE COURT: Matters of concern? I mean, that 7 is awfully, awfully broad. He might have concerns 8 about me or about you. 9 MR. DANDAR: Definitely. 10 THE COURT: About Mr. Weinberg. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I have concerns about Mr. Shaw. 12 I know he's very tired, as we all are. And I'm 13 hoping -- 14 THE COURT: He'll be done in a minute. So it 15 will all depend on you at that time. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I have to sit down. 17 THE COURT: If you are concerned, you can do 18 something about it. 19 MR. DANDAR: Do we have this marked? I don't 20 know if we have this marked as an exhibit. 21 THE COURT: I don't know. 22 MR. DANDAR: Let me mark it as an exhibit just 23 to be safe. I think we tried and I didn't have the 24 right page. I think we tried this once. 25 THE COURT: Either that, or there are a couple
42 1 pages out of it marked or something. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Let me show you what is identified as Plaintiff's 4 Exhibit Number 97. Can you identify this, please? 5 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. Maybe we 6 better take a five-minute break and we'll let him 7 finish. I don't want to sit here while he thumbs 8 through this thing. 9 If there is anything else you want him to 10 identify, give it to him over this break. 11 MR. DANDAR: That is all. 12 THE COURT: How much longer are you going to 13 be? 14 MR. DANDAR: That is it. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Then I think he just got done. 16 THE COURT: All right. In that case I'll wait. 17 A This looks like a brochure that has been published 18 by the Church of Scientology International. I just don't 19 know the date. That is one of the things I was looking for 20 to see if there was a copyright date on there. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q There isn't one in there? 23 A There are two different versions of this. One is 24 older and one is later. My eyes are so bad, I can't read 25 this.
43 1 THE COURT: Let me see if I can help you. Oh, 2 dear, down here? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: I think that says "1988." 5 THE WITNESS: I believe you are right. 6 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: You have better eyes than I do. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Is there a newer version? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What year? 12 A I'm not sure, but it was sometime in the '90s. 13 I'm almost positive. I have seen two different versions. I 14 believe there is one from the '90s. 15 Q Before December of 1995? 16 A I'm not sure. 17 Q Turn to Page 48, please. 18 A Okay. 19 Q Page 48 talks about -- at the bottom section 20 there -- reporting up lines to RTC? 21 A Are you talking about the last paragraph? 22 Q Well, that whole section. 23 A You want me to read that? 24 Q Read that. Start and -- go. 25 A Okay.
44 1 Q Doesn't that instruct to report up line to RTC? 2 THE COURT: Report what? 3 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to ask him that next. 4 A Specifically what it says, "Attempts to alter, 5 violate or misuse the command channels of Scientology should 6 be the subject of a knowledge report per HCOPL of 22 July 7 1982, knowledge reports, with a copy sent to the reports 8 officer, RTC." 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Now, you said what I have in my hand, "Keep 11 Scientology Working," KSW News, was published in 1986? 12 A I believe 1996. 13 Q 1996. Sorry. And are you saying, though, that 14 the section in the middle of "Matters of RTC Concern, PTS 15 Type III," was never the policy of the Church of Scientology 16 prior to December 5 of 1995? 17 A Well, here is what I can say. I don't know for 18 certain when -- when this particular item was indicated by 19 the RTC reports officer as something which was desired to be 20 reported to RTC. It makes sense to me, it is something that 21 would indicate a matter which would be -- would require some 22 oversight and inspection. RTC wants to know about any 23 matters which are -- could indicate misapplication of policy 24 or technical issues or a matter which could indicate some 25 instance where an inspection is required in that area
45 1 because RTC is responsible for the purity of the application 2 of the technology. 3 Q Well, the beginning of this says that the RTC is 4 interested if you encounter any violations of HCO policy, 7 5 February 1965, "Keeping Scientology Working," HCO policy 6 June 17, 1970 RB, "Technical Degrades," HCO policy July 10, 7 1986, Issue 2, and "Admin Degrades," HCO policy 23 8 December 1965, "Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology 9 and Scientologists." 10 Wouldn't a PTS Type III fall within any one of 11 those policy letters? 12 A No. That is an extreme generality. There are 13 specific policy bulletins that determine what -- that define 14 what a PTS Type III is. Those references you just read 15 don't -- say specific things, they don't say anything about 16 a PTS Type III. I'm not sure what your question is, though. 17 Q None of those policy letters I just said back from 18 '65 to '86 had anything to do with a potential trouble 19 source? 20 THE COURT: Did you ask them for a copy of 21 that? 22 MR. DANDAR: Of what? 23 THE COURT: I don't know. The policy letters? 24 MR. DANDAR: No. No, I haven't. 25 THE COURT: Well, why don't you. I don't know,
46 1 that would be appropriate discovery, you could read 2 and see. 3 MR. DANDAR: I believe I could find them on my 4 own -- 5 A To answer your question, I can't tell for certain. 6 I don't have them memorized. 7 MR. DANDAR: I would like to move this into 8 evidence. 9 THE COURT: Any objection? 10 MR. WEINBERG: No. 11 THE COURT: It will be received. 12 Is that it? 13 MR. DANDAR: That is it. 14 THE COURT: Any questions? 15 MR. WEINBERG: No. 16 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may step down. 17 You may resume your seat. 18 All right, it is 5 o'clock. That is all we're 19 going to do for today. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Can Mr. -- Mr. Dandar said two 21 things. 22 One, he said something about his next witness 23 being Jesse Prince. And then he said something 24 about Vaughn Young being here Monday. 25 Which one is it?
47 1 MR. DANDAR: Vaughn Young will be here Monday 2 morning. 3 THE COURT: Well, what is today? 4 MR. DANDAR: Thursday. 5 MR. LIROT: Today is Thursday. 6 THE COURT: We're not doing this tomorrow. 7 MR. LIROT: No. 8 THE COURT: So Mr. Young will be called Monday? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Or Mr. Prince? Or you haven't 11 decided yet? 12 MR. DANDAR: No. Mr. Young. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Young will be here Monday. 14 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 15 THE COURT: And then, after Mr. Young and 16 Mr. Prince, who else do you have? Or do you know 17 yet? 18 MR. DANDAR: I have Mr. Young. Mr. Prince. 19 Brian Haney. 20 THE COURT: Who is that? 21 MR. DANDAR: He's a former Scientologist, to 22 talk about the Minton testimony. He had served on 23 the board of directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust 24 for a period of time. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Brief then, it sounds like.
48 1 MR. DANDAR: He'll be brief. And I have to 2 bring him on Wednesday because he won't be -- he's 3 out of the country for, I think, three or four 4 weeks. 5 THE COURT: Well, he'll be just a couple hours, 6 at most, right? Like -- 7 MR. DANDAR: He'll be a lot shorter than most 8 of the others. 9 And Frank Oliver, who is a former Scientologist 10 and a former OSA employee. 11 THE COURT: What is he going to testify about? 12 MR. DANDAR: He's going to talk about OSA 13 policy and procedures, how they follow Guardian 14 orders in the '90s and '80s. 15 THE COURT: No longer, certainly, than the 16 gentleman that testified today? 17 MR. DANDAR: Much shorter. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. DANDAR: Much shorter. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Is there anyone else? 21 MR. DANDAR: I just can't think of anybody 22 else, but I don't think there would be. 23 THE COURT: Well, I know you would like for us 24 to finish by next Wednesday. And I certainly would, 25 too, because I would like to give you all directions
49 1 to get me some closing arguments and let you read it 2 and summarize it. You're not going to probably do 3 that. You can try, and we'll work real hard and see 4 if we do. 5 But I have got to be at a meeting in Naples, 6 wherever I'm going, on Friday morning real early, 7 which means I'll drive down there before it gets 8 dark, which means I'm probably not going to be able 9 to work all day Thursday. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Could I ask one more? Are you 11 intending to testify anymore? Or are you done? 12 MR. DANDAR: I haven't decided that. I mean, I 13 testified so much. When we began, I testified, I 14 believe on direct. 15 MR. LIROT: Correct. 16 MR. WEINBERG: For about an hour. 17 MR. DANDAR: Because we were following the 18 procedure -- 19 THE COURT: You testified a little bit. And 20 then at that time I had agreed that whatever you 21 testified to in front of Judge Baird would come in, 22 so whatever you were asked by Mr. Lirot up there 23 would be part of your testimony. 24 MR. DANDAR: We'll think about that and let you 25 know.
50 1 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 2 THE COURT: Whatever it is, I don't think -- I 3 won't hold him to that. I don't think we'll finish 4 by next Thursday. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think so, either, 6 because if he calls Mr. Young or Mr. Prince, we'll 7 have a lot of cross from both of those. 8 THE COURT: Anyway, I do not plan to work next 9 Thursday, just Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday is all 10 I'm working. Remember, I'll be gone for two weeks 11 and two days, and I need to have my office in order 12 or I won't enjoy myself. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 14 THE COURT: All right. See you Monday. 15 (WHEREUPON, Court stands adjourned at 5:00 16 p.m.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 13th day of June, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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