1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION

3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,

5 Plaintiff,

6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235

7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume V

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR February 9 & 10, 2000 25

 

630

1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609

5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602

9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 12 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 13 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 14 Tampa, Florida 33602

15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: 19 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI Robert P. Polli, P.A. 20 Trombley & Hanes 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265

21 Tampa, Florida 33602

22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 23 Ms. Lara Cartwright Mr. Michael Rinder 24 Mr. Kendrick L. Moxon Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (Via Internet) 25

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

631

1 I N D E X

2 Volume V

3 WITNESS PAGE

4 Called by the Plaintiff:

5 CROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG.......... 633

6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DANDAR......... 672

7 RECROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG........ 751

8 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 764

9 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 765

10 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE......................... 766

11

12 EXHIBITS

13 Defendant's Exhibit No. 44..................... 643

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

632

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION

3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,

5 Plaintiff,

6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235

7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume V

12 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the

13 Trial Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young, upon oral

14 examination in the above?styled cause, for the

15 purposes of use at trial and for all other purposes

16 as are permitted pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil

17 Procedure, proceedings therefor were held before

18 Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered Professional

19 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary

20 Public in and for the State of Florida at large, at

21 220 East Madison Street, 12th Floor Conference

22 Room, Tampa, Florida, on February 10, 2000.

23 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by

24 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector.

25

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

633

1 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were

2 had and taken:

3 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness

4 by the Plaintiff, having been previously duly

5 sworn, continued to testify as follows:

6 CROSS?EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. WEINBERG:

8 Q. Mr. Young, before we broke, right before

9 we broke for lunch, I believe that we were talking

10 about ethics technology in Scientology, do you

11 recall?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And I believe that you acknowledged the

14 fact that ethics technology is an important part of

15 Scientology, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, are you an expert on that?

18 A. I know a lot about it. I would be able to

19 testify to it.

20 Q. But I mean you would agree that an expert

21 should have the understanding ?? I mean an expert

22 on Scientology should have the understanding on

23 this aspect, on ethics technology, right?

24 A. Well, you yourself has pointed out this is

25 new ground as to what constitutes an expert in

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

634

1 Scientology, so let's try it.

2 Q. Right. Well, you saw some of the learned

3 works that were written by the scholar ?? you know,

4 the scholarly works that were written, and all of

5 them, in addressing whether or not Scientology met

6 the definition ?? met the test, met the accepted

7 methodology of religion, all of them talked about,

8 among other things, the ethics technology in

9 Scientology, correct?

10 A. No. I didn't read those.

11 Q. Oh, so you didn't read them, so you don't

12 know whether those religious scholars addressed

13 that as part of determining, in each case, in

14 determining that Scientology met the definition of

15 religion?

16 A. I responded I hadn't read the material you

17 gave me, so you were describing it to me. I can't

18 speak to those.

19 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you a question.

20 How does the aberrative personality treat actions

21 done by another to him?

22 A. There is various ways that it could occur.

23 Do you want to ?? this is going to be a fairly long

24 answer. How do you want it?

25 Q. Well, isn't there actually a very precise

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

635

1 short answer?

2 A. Well, there is the phenomenon called

3 overts and withholds in which Hubbard says that a

4 person has got overts on another ?? you know,

5 Person A has overts, which are harmful acts

6 committed on Person B, and if Person B does

7 something, then Person A will start to natter or ??

8 which is his word for complain about Person B.

9 That's one way to describe it.

10 Q. Well, isn't the answer ?? I mean isn't the

11 answer set forth ?? oh, you know what On Human

12 Behavior is, don't you?

13 A. Yes, I've read it.

14 Q. And you know what PAB 13 is, don't you?

15 A. Not by the number.

16 Q. Well, what is PAB, what's that stand for?

17 A. Professional auditor's bulletin.

18 Q. All right. And the fact of the matter is

19 there is a very precise technology that is set

20 forth by Mr. Hubbard, correct, in the bulletins?

21 A. About what?

22 Q. About ethics.

23 A. There is dozens, perhaps scores of

24 policies on ethics.

25 Q. Right. And the answer to the question

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

636

1 that I posed is very precise, it is everything the

2 preclear and others did to the aberrative person

3 was, A, very important, B, very bad, C, irremedial,

4 that's the answer, isn't it?

5 A. That's the answer in that one. There is

6 other answers ??

7 Q. But that's the answer to the question in

8 the Scientology ethics technology?

9 MR. DANDAR: Object to your interrupting

10 his answer.

11 Q. Correct? Correct?

12 A. No. There is other answers to that

13 question that can be found in the materials to how

14 an aberrated person responds to what ?? you know,

15 there is also the criminal mind HCOB, which is a

16 part of ethics ??

17 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Moxon, do you

18 want to say something?

19 MR. DANDAR: Robert?

20 THE WITNESS: Okay.

21 MR. DANDAR: Please don't smile at the

22 witness when he's testifying, Mr. Moxon.

23 MR. MOXON: I didn't smile at the

24 witness.

25 THE WITNESS: He's just making ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

637

1 Q. By the way, maybe you didn't understand

2 my question because the question was how does the

3 aberrative, not aberrative, the aberrative

4 personality treat actions done by another to him?

5 A. As I responded, there is various ways that

6 that could be done through the criminal ??

7 Q. All right. So you understood my question

8 then?

9 A. Okay.

10 MR. DANDAR: Object to your interrupting

11 him.

12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I interrupted him

13 because I wanted to make ??

14 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike, move to the

15 question.

16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if you'll be quiet.

17 Q. I just wanted to make it clear that it

18 didn't make any difference to you whether it was

19 aberrated or aberrative, is that right?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Well, what offenses compose the

22 charge of failure to uphold or set an example of

23 high ethical standards?

24 A. That could be done usually within a staff

25 position. Let's say, for example, you are a senior

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

638

1 over a person and you let that person come in late,

2 you let the person ?? you don't care if the person

3 files reports, you let the person be slovenly in

4 their appearance and you let them just be

5 disgraceful in their post, you are not maintaining

6 ethics in the area.

7 Q. But there is a very precise answer to that

8 question set forth in HCO PL3, part of ethics and

9 executives, correct?

10 A. There might be a specific reply to ?? a

11 specific point in that. I don't question that.

12 There is no problem on that. No Scientologist is

13 ever spot checked in that way.

14 Q. Now, the Sea Org has always been part of

15 the corporate structure from day one in

16 Scientology, hasn't it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Sea Org members today ?? every Sea Org

19 member today is in churches that are part of the

20 corporate structure of Scientology, correct?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So that you don't even acknowledge that

23 Sea Org members are part of Scientology churches

24 and organizations?

25 A. That wasn't my answer.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

639

1 Q. Well, do you agree that every Sea Org

2 member is part of, a member of, in a Sea Org ?? I

3 mean a Church of Scientology corporation?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In a Church of Scientology church?

6 A. Not as staff, no.

7 Q. Now, you're familiar with the basic issues

8 of the Sea Organization?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The Flag Orders?

11 A. I've read many of them.

12 Q. Well, that's what they are, right, they're

13 the Flag Orders?

14 A. Well, there is also other issues. There

15 is Flag Bureau Orders and there is Ship Orders and

16 there is other forms of orders that make up the

17 basic policies for Sea Organization personnel.

18 Q. And the most basic Flag Order is Flag

19 Order 1, is that right?

20 A. It was the first one, in that sense of

21 basic.

22 Q. And that discusses the formation of the

23 Sea Org, right?

24 A. It may. I don't remember just name and

25 title of the first one.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

640

1 Q. Well, did you read the first one?

2 A. I've read it.

3 Q. Well, do you remember that in Flag Order

4 Number 1, that it set forth and established the Sea

5 Organization as part of the Church of Scientology

6 California?

7 A. If you want to show me so I can ??

8 Q. I'm just asking if you recall that?

9 A. I would want to see the issue to see

10 whether or not that's an issue that actually got

11 changed.

12 Q. Just answer my question.

13 A. No, I don't recall that.

14 Q. That's the answer to my question. So you

15 don't recall it, is that right?

16 A. No, I don't recall that.

17 Q. Let me show ?? well, how would you know if

18 the issue has been changed?

19 A. Because there ?? when Flag Orders were

20 issued, they were usually broadly issued to a lot

21 of personnel and there are issues that you can find

22 that were issued, say, in 1965 that are originally

23 off the mimeograph machine in 1965 as opposed to

24 reprinted, say, in 1995.

25 Q. I was under the impression that Flag Order

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

641

1 Number 1 was in 1967?

2 A. You just wanted to ask me ?? you asked me

3 about a span of time and my point was going to be

4 you would go back and find the original one with

5 the original staples and you make a comparison

6 against the ones that came off the mimeograph

7 machine to see ??

8 Q. All right. Well, let me ?? I'm sorry to

9 interrupt. Go ahead.

10 A. ?? to see whether or not there was changes

11 to one that got reprinted.

12 Q. And my question to you is you have sat

13 here for his direct and yesterday professing to be

14 some sort of an expert. Surely you know when the

15 first ?? when Flag Order Number 1 was?

16 A. I wasn't ??

17 Q. What year?

18 A. My point was saying '65, '95. I could

19 have said '55. I could have said '75. My point

20 was a span of time, not naming a year for an issue.

21 I just pulled a year out of the thin air to give

22 you a span of time of comparing something from,

23 say, 30 years ago, 40 years ago.

24 Q. It doesn't mean ?? it's not important to

25 you whether you are right or wrong when you espouse

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

642

1 these things?

2 A. I didn't say ??

3 MR. DANDAR: Objection. That's

4 argumentative.

5 Q. Go ahead.

6 A. I did not ?? I don't know what you are

7 responding to, that I was espousing something,

8 other than the point of answering your question how

9 would I know if something was changed. I would

10 find the original issue, even if it was 30 years

11 ago, 40 years ago, whatever came off the mimeograph

12 machine, people collect these, and then you compare

13 it against today's and see if somebody changed it.

14 Q. Okay. And I'm asking you as you sit here

15 today do you recall when the Sea Org was

16 established, what year do you recall?

17 A. Formally, I believe it was 1966 or '67.

18 Q. Not '65, right?

19 A. I don't know exactly when they wanted to

20 call the exact date because he actually had it

21 operational and then he finally named it as such.

22 Q. And you remember ??

23 A. And then it had an official birthday.

24 Q. ?? that its official birthday was the

25 issuance of Flag Order Number 1?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

643

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that was issued by Mr. Hubbard

3 himself, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 44 was marked for

6 identification.)

7 Q. Let me show you what's Exhibit 44 and ask

8 you if you remember ?? if you recognize this to be

9 Flag Order Number 1?

10 A. This is a reissue.

11 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy for me?

12 MR. WEINBERG: No.

13 A. This is a reissue of it.

14 Q. And you know that because of what?

15 A. Well, first of all, there is a serious

16 typo on the type ?? on the top which would have

17 never have gotten off the ship, which it says SSEA

18 Organization. Secondly, this is ?? you can look ??

19 comparing to back what was being issued on Flag,

20 you could look at the originals and you can spot

21 the difference between this and this type of

22 typeface. This was done what looks like on a

23 carbon ribbon typewriter. It's nice and clear.

24 The font is clean. Everything is really nice.

25 It's a modern typewriter. It wasn't what was

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

644

1 coming off the Flagship or even policies in 1967,

2 and that's not hard to do. When you pull up 1967

3 issues ??

4 Q. Well, you weren't on the ship, were you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You were never on the ship, were you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And so what, it's your suggestion that

9 somehow this has been falsified, is that your

10 suggestion?

11 A. I did not say that.

12 Q. Now, why would ??

13 A. I said it was reissued and retyped, that's

14 all.

15 Q. Okay. And what is the difference whether

16 it's reissued or not? Doesn't this indicate that

17 in 1967, through Flag Order 1, August 12th of 1967,

18 that the Sea Organization was officially

19 established under the corporate name of Hubbard

20 Exploration Company ?? Explorational Company

21 Limited, now owned by the Church of Scientology of

22 California, isn't that what this does?

23 MR. DANDAR: Objection. The document has

24 not been authenticated. The document speaks

25 for itself.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

645

1 A. You're asking me to verify this document.

2 I will not verify this document because I cannot

3 determine if it matches the original. That was my

4 point that I made in direct and I'll make the point

5 again with this. All I can say is what this ??

6 these five pages that you've handed to me, what

7 they say. I do not know if somebody else has

8 inserted changes in here, which is what is being

9 done with issues to make them fit the responses and

10 the needs in the courts.

11 Q. I see. So it would make a lot of sense to

12 reissue a document that was issued in ?? you do

13 admit that this was issued originally in 1967,

14 right?

15 A. I don't question that.

16 Q. Okay. So I'm going to reissue a document

17 for some purpose that I guess is wrongful and in

18 the document ??

19 A. I didn't say that.

20 Q. Well, I'm just reading between the lines

21 here, Mr. Young, because I'm having a hard time

22 understanding why every time somebody puts a

23 document ?? well, strike that.

24 A. If I may ??

25 Q. No. It's not a question. I'll withdraw

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

646

1 it.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. So I've got a document here where you're

4 questioning whether it's reissued and it says as to

5 Flag appointments: Flag Supercargo, Ray Thacker;

6 Flag Chief Officer, Hank Laarhuis; Flag

7 Communicator, Jill Van Staden. Do you know these

8 people?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I mean you assume that these people really

11 existed in 1967, right?

12 A. If you're going to try to get me to

13 back?door the authentication of this ??

14 Q. Is that right?

15 A. Let me finish my answer. I'm not going to

16 authenticate that these people held these positions

17 according to this being an actual exact copy of

18 Flag Order Number 1. I can't say that.

19 Q. All right. But I guess you can't say that

20 anything in the Red Books is authentic either,

21 right?

22 A. The Red Books are also retypeset. The

23 originals were off mimeograph machines.

24 Q. Just answer my question. You, as you sit

25 here today ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

647

1 A. I can't authenticate them.

2 Q. You have to go back to the original

3 document, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But you haven't gone back to the original

6 document for all the Red Volumes to authenticate

7 it, have you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You haven't gone back to the original

10 document for all the Green Volumes to authenticate

11 them, have you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You haven't gone back to the original

14 document for all the Flag Orders to authenticate

15 them, have you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You haven't gone back to the original

18 document for the other hundreds of thousands of

19 pages of works that Mr. Hubbard published to

20 identify ?? to authenticate them, have you?

21 A. I have done some, yes, I have. I've done

22 quite a few. I did over a thousand.

23 Q. So that was in ?? you did that when you

24 were sitting in the hotel room that was provided to

25 you by Mr. Haney?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

648

1 A. No. I did it when I was working in Los

2 Angeles on the FACT Net case regarding copyright,

3 when we got copies of originals to compare them

4 against the exhibits that were presented by the

5 Scientology organization.

6 Q. Well, yeah, but you put in the, on direct,

7 you put in the Flag Order that we talked about

8 appointing Pat Broeker as a loyal officer, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But you couldn't authenticate that, could

11 you?

12 A. That was from a Scientology publication.

13 Q. But you couldn't authenticate it. You

14 didn't look at the original whatever it was to see

15 if that was the real thing, did you?

16 A. True, and that wasn't the point. The

17 point was the cancellation, not the issue.

18 Q. I see.

19 A. The very cancellation that you put into

20 evidence, or we put in.

21 Q. Now, you know that ?? you're familiar with

22 OEC Volume 0 in the Basics ?? you know that OEC

23 Volume 0 is the Basic Staff Hat, is that right?

24 A. No, it's not. It's the basic volumes.

25 The Basic Staff Hat was a different issue.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

649

1 Q. Well, some of the most fundamental

2 principles of administration in Scientology ?? it's

3 Volume 0?

4 A. It's the ??

5 Q. It's one of the most fundamental

6 principles of the administration of Scientology,

7 right?

8 A. It is the basic staff volume that's used

9 as a Basic Staff Hat.

10 Q. Every staff member is expected to know

11 those basic practices, right?

12 A. No.

13 Q. No? Okay. So it's part of the Green

14 Volumes, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'm actually holding one up. Do you want

17 to hold it up for the camera?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that the Green Volume that has ?? is

20 that Volume 0?

21 A. This is the new Volume 0.

22 Q. It's the one that's being used in 19

23 whatever, 1999, 2000, right?

24 A. Right. And now it's named as the Basic

25 Staff Hat. It was never done that before. Before

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

650

1 it was just basically Volume 0.

2 Q. And you don't have any challenge to the

3 fact that the Church of Scientology is using a new

4 volume called Basic Staff Hat in the year 2000,

5 right?

6 A. No, just ??

7 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form of the

8 question.

9 Q. Let me show you an older volume. Is this

10 the one that you used to use?

11 A. Let's see what year this is. This is even

12 later. This is 1980. This one says Basic Staff

13 Volume. That was my point. And it ??

14 Q. You were there then, right?

15 A. Yeah. It's just ?? you know, as I said,

16 the difference between this one and that one is,

17 obviously, they have grown in size.

18 Q. All right. Okay. But the point is this

19 is where the fundamental principles of

20 administration are for Scientology churches, right?

21 A. Yeah, but just to clarify one point, that

22 is a separate course. Every staff member just

23 doesn't sit down and do all of Volume 0. They get

24 their own basics and later on they might do the

25 Volume 0 check sheet.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

651

1 Q. And you're ?? well, have you read Volume

2 0?

3 A. Yes, I did the Volume 0 course.

4 Q. So you are familiar with that, right, is

5 that ??

6 A. Yeah, back with the older volume.

7 Q. Okay. Well, what is the first and primary

8 goal of the Scientology organization?

9 A. It says in a couple places. In one place

10 he says make money, make more money, make more

11 money.

12 Q. Yeah, except are you familiar with the

13 place where he actually addresses that question?

14 A. And he also says in someplace else the

15 primary thing is to maintain friendly relations

16 with the environment.

17 Q. And do you remember in HCO PL, Policy

18 Letter, 26, quality counts, that that question is

19 asked and the answer is the first and primary goal

20 of an organization is delivering the foremost

21 technical quality that can be delivered in its

22 area, isn't that the answer that Mr. Hubbard gave

23 to that question?

24 A. On that policy letter, yes.

25 Q. Well, that's the one I asked you about.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

652

1 It's very precise, isn't it?

2 A. On that one it is, yes, but the point is

3 he says it in different ways in different places.

4 Q. The point is is that when I asked you the

5 question, you gave me the wrong answer according to

6 the technology?

7 A. No, I didn't. No, I didn't.

8 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative.

9 Move to strike.

10 A. No, I didn't. I'd be happy, if you ever

11 want to break and have me go find the volumes, I'll

12 show you how he says that in response to that

13 question.

14 Q. Well, how does he define the term

15 responsibility? You know that that term is defined

16 by Mr. Hubbard in the volumes, right?

17 A. Several times over in different places.

18 There is even an HCOBE on responsibility and there

19 is also PLs on responsibility, and there's also in

20 the tech volumes. It goes around and around and

21 around. It's just basically being responsible for

22 your action, taking ownership for your actions and

23 what you do.

24 Q. Well, in the HCO PL2, May 1985, doesn't he

25 define, precisely define responsibility to be the

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

653

1 nonrecognition and denial of the right of

2 intervention between oneself and any being, idea,

3 matter, energy, space, time or form in the

4 assumption of full right of determination over it,

5 doesn't he do that?

6 A. He might.

7 Q. Well, but isn't this ??

8 A. You just read it to me, sir. I'm not

9 looking at what you're reading.

10 Q. Isn't this a precise technology,

11 Scientology?

12 A. He calls it that. I don't consider it

13 precise. He calls it that.

14 Q. But isn't that ?? it's an applied

15 religious belief, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And it is important for people that

18 practice Scientology, particularly members of the

19 staff as they are applying these Green Volumes, to

20 apply them as Mr. Hubbard wrote, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you have not received any

23 stipends or grants to do research on religion,

24 comparative religion, religious philosophy or the

25 religiosity of Scientology, have you?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

654

1 A. No.

2 Q. You didn't develop any standards of

3 control when you were developing your opinion in

4 order ?? as to Scientology in order to determine a

5 potential error rate for others that would try to

6 analyze your opinions, did you? Do you understand

7 what I'm asking you?

8 A. Not really.

9 Q. Well, do you ??

10 A. We weren't talking statistics. We're

11 talking opinion.

12 Q. No, but when you ?? do you understand that

13 when one appears as a so?called expert, that in

14 order to test what you come in to give your

15 supposed learned opinion about, that there has to

16 be some methodology that others can test, do you

17 understand that?

18 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form;

19 argumentative.

20 Q. Do you understand that?

21 A. No, I don't understand the point you're

22 making since I'm not talking statistics or science.

23 Q. Well, you didn't develop a methodology

24 with regard to the opinions that you rendered with

25 regard to Scientology in the last two days, did

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

655

1 you?

2 A. What do you mean methodology?

3 Q. Well, some sort of method by which others

4 can test and understand and try to analyze ??

5 MR. WEINBERG: You know, excuse me. Mike,

6 now, if you want to sit there and shake your

7 head and try to disrupt what's going on, I

8 object to it.

9 MR. DANDAR: What are you talking about?

10 MR. GARKO: Excuse me, counselor.

11 MR. WEINBERG: I'll tell you exactly what

12 I'm talking about. What you're doing is

13 looking at the witness ?? what you're doing at

14 the witness, you're looking at him and you're

15 shaking your head and that's improper.

16 MR. GARKO: No, I'm not.

17 MR. DANDAR: He's not.

18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you are.

19 MR. GARKO: No, I am not.

20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm looking right at you

21 when you do it.

22 MR. GARKO: Do you know what no means?

23 MR. WEINBERG: It's very disruptive.

24 MR. GARKO: No means no.

25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, guess what? You

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

656

1 were and I object to it, Ken, and you need to

2 instruct Mr. Garko ??

3 MR. DANDAR: I'm not instructing him.

4 You're out of line. I'm sitting right next to

5 him.

6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not ?? I'm looking at

7 him.

8 MR. GARKO: I'm sitting here rubbing my

9 eye.

10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm looking at him and I

11 know exactly what he did and it's improper.

12 He's looking right at Mr. Young ??

13 MR. GARKO: I'm not looking at Mr. Young.

14 MR. WEINBERG: ?? and what he is doing is

15 he's making head gestures and it's improper.

16 MR. DANDAR: He's not doing what you're

17 saying.

18 MR. GARKO: No, I am not.

19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, he is.

20 MR. DANDAR: Why are you creating this

21 scene?

22 MR. GARKO: You're just trying to make a

23 false record.

24 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not making a false

25 record. I'm making an accurate ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

657

1 MR. GARKO: You're making a false record,

2 Counselor.

3 MR. WEINBERG: Sort of like what's been

4 going on every deposition we've ever been to?

5 Look, I haven't said one thing about you

6 before but that was improper.

7 MR. GARKO: There is nothing to say,

8 Counselor.

9 MR. WEINBERG: That was improper.

10 MR. GARKO: There's nothing to say.

11 MR. WEINBERG: And it's inappropriate.

12 It's inappropriate.

13 MR. GARKO: You lack civility.

14 MR. WEINBERG: It's inappropriate.

15 MR. GARKO: You lack civility.

16 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, incorrect.

17 MR. GARKO: Learn some civility,

18 Counselor.

19 MR. WEINBERG: Will you ?? will you tell

20 him ??

21 MR. DANDAR: You're the one that's

22 arguing with him.

23 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not arguing with him.

24 MR. GARKO: If you want to argue with me,

25 Counselor, I'll be more than happy to engage

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

658

1 you.

2 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Stop.

3 MR. WEINBERG: What, are you threatening

4 me now?

5 MR. DANDAR: Stop.

6 MR. WEINBERG: Are you threatening me?

7 MR. DANDAR: Stop.

8 MR. GARKO: You're threatening me.

9 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't. I asked you

10 to control yourself.

11 MR. DANDAR: Do you want me to interrupt

12 you every time that Rinder, who now is sitting

13 next to you, starts to smirk, or Moxon who

14 starts to shake his head?

15 MR. WEINBERG: All you've ?? that's what

16 you've been doing through the whole

17 deposition.

18 MR. DANDAR: Do you want me to continue

19 to do that?

20 MR. WEINBERG: You've been doing it.

21 MR. DANDAR: I will do it.

22 MR. WEINBERG: This is the first time

23 I've said anything.

24 MR. DANDAR: It's improper.

25 MR. WEINBERG: What this ?? yeah, what

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

659

1 you are doing is ??

2 MR. DANDAR: I'm sitting next to him.

3 He's not doing what you are claiming.

4 MR. WEINBERG: No. How could you ??

5 MR. DANDAR: I would be the first to

6 admit it.

7 MR. WEINBERG: What, you've got eyes in

8 the back of your head?

9 MR. DANDAR: I'm sitting right next to

10 him.

11 MR. WEINBERG: You've got eyes in the

12 back of your head?

13 MR. DANDAR: I know how frustrating it

14 is. Let's go on.

15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it is frustrating to

16 sit here for two days ??

17 MR. DANDAR: And don't call Mr. Young a

18 so?called expert.

19 MR. WEINBERG: You know what ??

20 MR. DANDAR: That is improper as well.

21 MR. WEINBERG: You know what? He's not

22 an expert.

23 MR. DANDAR: Well, you may think that but

24 don't put it in your question.

25 MR. WEINBERG: I think I've established

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

660

1 it.

2 MR. DANDAR: Don't put it in your

3 question. It's insulting. It's

4 argumentative.

5 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not. It's not.

6 It's not. It's not because he's not an

7 expert.

8 BY MR. WEINBERG:

9 Q. Do you understand as somebody that

10 purports to be an expert, that you've got to have

11 some methodology from which to establish your

12 expert opinions, do you understand that?

13 MR. DANDAR: Objection; improper form,

14 argumentative.

15 Q. Do you understand that?

16 A. That is not a requirement for being an

17 expert in every subject or field. Perhaps

18 statistically or in the physical sciences or in

19 doing Gallup polls.

20 Q. You didn't ?? in any event, you didn't

21 establish a methodology in order to put together

22 your opinions that you rendered in this case, is

23 that right?

24 A. Well, go back to the question that

25 was sort of, I guess, sort of pending.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

661

1 Q. Just answer that question.

2 A. That was when that outbreak occurred. I

3 didn't understand what you mean by methodology.

4 Q. Well, a way in which you established a,

5 you know, a scientific way in which you go about

6 obtaining data, reviewing data, analyzing data and

7 developing your opinion. Did you establish one?

8 A. And you require this for me to do this?

9 Q. I'm asking you if you did it.

10 A. I did a ?? no, I did no scientific

11 analysis.

12 Q. All right. That's all I'm asking you in

13 the questions. Did you ??

14 A. This is certainly not required to be an

15 expert in every field to do that. If you want to

16 argue that ??

17 Q. So you did not establish a methodology to

18 analyze ??

19 A. I have a method. It may not fit your

20 criteria but I have a method, of course. Do you

21 want to ask me about my methods?

22 Q. Did you have a method in which to analyze

23 data before you came in here today?

24 A. Of course I analyzed data.

25 Q. But your method was what?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

662

1 A. Okay. You want a narrative now? I'm

2 willing to ??

3 Q. No, I don't want a narrative. Is there

4 some scientific method that you developed?

5 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Young, do not answer ??

6 do not ask him any questions. Once he asks

7 you a question, you simply give your answer.

8 A. I'm more than willing to give you a

9 narrative on the analysis of scientific ?? I'm

10 sorry, of Scientology material but you're going ??

11 it's going to require a narrative. It's pretty

12 open?ended. Do you want me to start?

13 Q. That's not what I'm asking you.

14 A. You asked me for my method of analysis.

15 I'm willing to respond, sir.

16 Q. That's not ?? it is not what I'm asking

17 you.

18 A. Yes, you did. You asked me for what

19 analysis did I use?

20 MR. DANDAR: Withdraw the question or

21 reask the question.

22 MR. WEINBERG: Now, what we're doing is

23 unbelievably improper.

24 MR. DANDAR: Don't give him a question

25 back. Just start answering the question.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

663

1 THE WITNESS: Okay.

2 MR. DANDAR: Don't ask him what he wants.

3 THE WITNESS: Okay.

4 Q. I'll withdraw the question and we'll

5 start over again.

6 A. Let's start again.

7 Q. What I want are answers and not

8 interruptions. How about criteria of method? Do

9 you have some criteria of method that you used for

10 your expert ?? to arrive at your expert opinion?

11 A. I have some criterias of methods, yes.

12 Q. Name one criteria.

13 A. Well, for examples, does this material

14 match the original.

15 Q. What else, what other criteria?

16 A. Okay. Let's ?? then this is going to

17 require a narrative, sir.

18 Q. Criteria doesn't require a narrative.

19 List it. One, you matched materials; two, what?

20 A. Okay. We match materials. We go to

21 original source materials.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. We go to materials published by the

24 organization. We compare the publications against

25 the original source materials. We see whether or

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

664

1 not the materials in the publications have been

2 changed from the source materials. We then just to

3 see whether or not the dates and the quotations

4 match.

5 Q. That's six. What else?

6 A. Do you want me to continue?

7 Q. What other criteria? That's what I want

8 to know. What criteria did you use in your

9 methodology, to establish your methodology, what

10 criteria?

11 A. No, no, no, no, no. That wasn't the

12 question. You said what criteria was I using in

13 the analysis.

14 Q. Go ahead.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. You've just named about six things, the

17 same thing with regard to comparing documents.

18 Okay. That's criteria number one with five

19 subsets. Now, is there some criteria?

20 A. No. I'm sorry, sir. This is getting

21 into an argument now.

22 Q. What other criteria?

23 A. That will suffice for now.

24 Q. Is that it?

25 A. No response I give you satisfies you, so

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

665

1 we move to the next point.

2 Q. Okay. Well, the opinions that you are

3 rendering in this case were rendered specifically

4 with regard to Scientology for litigation, weren't

5 they?

6 A. That would seem to be axiomatically true

7 since I rendered the opinion in deposition. I

8 don't understand your question.

9 Q. Well, for example, you didn't write in any

10 learned work setting forth your opinions, did you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You didn't publish a learned work with

13 regard to your opinions on Scientology, did you?

14 A. No.

15 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on one second. All

16 right. Those are all my questions subject to

17 reopening the cross depending on our

18 outstanding discovery requests which are

19 before Judge Moody and which ?? some of which

20 have already ?? counsel, Mr. Dandar, has

21 already been ordered to comply with and we

22 don't have.

23 MR. DANDAR: Such as what?

24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, for example, the

25 information with regard to the Friends of the

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

666

1 Animal Foundation which specifically had to do

2 with Mr. Young.

3 MR. HERTZBERG: Remember the rulings on

4 Tuesday?

5 MR. DANDAR: So if there is more checks

6 by Mr. Minton to the foundation, you want the

7 right to come back and question Mr. Young

8 about that.

9 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's ?? look.

10 MR. DANDAR: That's one. What else?

11 MR. WEINBERG: You're the one that ??

12 well, there is a number of ??

13 MR. HERTZBERG: Whatever the transcript

14 reflects, Mr. Dandar.

15 MR. WEINBERG: There is a number of

16 discovery issues that are outstanding. We are

17 unwilling to be prejudiced by the fact that

18 you have accelerated his testimony and, you

19 know ??

20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I note your

21 objection. Any other questions?

22 MR. HERTZBERG: I would add to that, by

23 the way, since you were in court Tuesday ??

24 MR. DANDAR: Well, wait. You're not the

25 counsel ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

667

1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but for this, we're

2 done asking questions, he can do this.

3 MR. HERTZBERG: Since you don't respond

4 to letters ??

5 MR. WEINBERG: He can either whisper in

6 my ear and I can say it or he can do it.

7 MR. HERTZBERG: Since you don't respond

8 to letters, maybe you can state on the record

9 when you intend to comply with the matters

10 that the judge ordered you to pursue and

11 report back to us on and produce to us. When

12 are you going to do that?

13 MR. DANDAR: When I'm ready.

14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. But, see, that's ??

15 remember, you have ?? our objection is is that

16 you've made representations, and we won't go

17 into them, about Mr. Young and we are in what

18 you've described as an extraordinary or

19 emergency situation. And what we're saying

20 Ken, is, and it's only fair, is that we would

21 be prejudiced if Mr. Young couldn't continue

22 and you are negligent or not diligent in

23 producing what we are entitled to. Okay? And

24 that's what we're saying.

25 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm just curious ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

668

1 MR. WEINBERG: So when you say whenever

2 you're ready, I mean the fact is if you think

3 that it's appropriate to wait two or three

4 months to do this, and in the interim

5 Mr. Young becomes unable to testify, we would

6 have a very major issue with that and we would

7 object. And it seems to me that ??

8 THE WITNESS: Not as much as I would.

9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I understand that,

10 but I mean it seems to me that ?? for all

11 variety of reasons Mr. Young could be

12 unavailable. I mean all of us could be

13 unavailable. You know that.

14 MR. DANDAR: Right, but my question is

15 besides the funds at the Friends of Animal

16 Foundation, what else at that hearing would

17 pertain to ??

18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't think that

19 it was necessarily just that hearing. We had

20 other ?? and I don't even have them in front

21 of me but there is other issues that we

22 weren't able to get to and that are pending

23 that may well be relevant to Mr. Young.

24 MR. DANDAR: You have all the documents

25 in reference to Mr. Young's payment in this

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

669

1 case.

2 MR. WEINBERG: As represented by you,

3 right.

4 MR. DANDAR: And that's accurate. You

5 are waiting to see if Mr. ?? if there are any

6 more funds to the Friends of Animal Foundation

7 from Mr. Minton other than what he testified

8 to. But what else?

9 MR. HERTZBERG: Mr. Dandar, I am not

10 going to ??

11 MR. DANDAR: What else?

12 MR. HERTZBERG: Let me be frank with you.

13 I'm not going to respond in that format

14 because if I omit something in the response,

15 then you're going to claim, as you did the

16 other day before the judge, that we narrowed

17 it down. The judge held a hearing on Tuesday.

18 I do not have my notes with me and I do not

19 have the transcript, but you were sitting

20 there and he ordered that certain information

21 be supplied and it's all of that without any

22 other limitation.

23 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Fine.

24 MR. HERTZBERG: Because there may be

25 other outstanding discovery. So I am not

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

670

1 narrowing, I am not limiting, but every ?? at

2 the very least, the universe of what we're

3 entitled to and for which we are holding this

4 deposition open includes everything the judge

5 ordered on Tuesday, and I will further tell

6 you that I don't think he contemplated that

7 you would take your own time about it. That's

8 not what I got when I was in front of the

9 judge.

10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. But does it

11 pay to argue about this right now? I mean it

12 is what it is, Ken, so why don't we just go

13 ahead.

14 MR. DANDAR: Well, deposit slips that I

15 can't get the copies ??

16 MR. WEINBERG: With all due respect, we

17 don't resolve that here. We've made our

18 record. Let's go on. Okay?

19 MR. DANDAR: Go on.

20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm done.

21 MR. DANDAR: Is there any more cross,

22 because then I'll start redirect if there's no

23 more cross.

24 MR. TITUS: I don't have any cross. I

25 just do have ?? want to make sure that I'm not

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

671

1 waiving my ?? any objections that I have

2 previously raised, and I'm also relying upon

3 the fact that it has been represented that

4 this witness has no testimony that affects ??

5 impacts my client and is not being offered to

6 impact my client or any of the individual

7 clients ?? individual defendants in the case.

8 So, based upon that, I rely on that

9 representation and I don't have any

10 cross?examination for Mr. Young. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 MR. DANDAR: He has no testimony that

13 directly concerns your client, that's true,

14 but when you use the word impacts your

15 clients, that's very broad. You already know

16 what his testimony is, so I think you can

17 decide that yourself. Anybody else?

18 MR. HANES: Well, I'm relying on the fact

19 that during your direct examination, when we

20 got to the point of any opinion being offered

21 you relayed, and it's in the record, that you

22 were not offering any opinion against

23 Ms. Johnson as it relies upon the testimony of

24 Vaughn Young. I assume you're not changing

25 that ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

672

1 MR. DANDAR: No.

2 MR. POLLI: Or David Houghton.

3 MR. DANDAR: No.

4 MR. HANES: ?? at this point in time.

5 MR. DANDAR: His direct testimony remains

6 the same.

7 MR. HANES: And, obviously, you

8 understand that we would have the right to

9 seek any further relief or a limiting

10 instruction or whatever the court would

11 determine appropriate for the individuals as a

12 result of that.

13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.

14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. DANDAR:

16 Q. On cross?examination, Mr. Young, you were

17 asked about your experience in testifying as an

18 expert in a court. Have you ever testified in

19 court?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Has it involved Scientology matters?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you have given declarations or

24 affidavits in litigated cases involving

25 Scientology?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

673

1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Have you given any depositions?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in those cases they involved

6 Scientology?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you were in Scientology, did you ever

9 give any affidavits or declarations concerning

10 Scientology?

11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

12 scope.

13 A. No, just testimony.

14 Q. In court?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On what occasions did you testify in court

17 while you were a Scientologist?

18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection;

19 beyond the scope, and I have a continuing

20 objection, if it's okay ??

21 MR. DANDAR: That's fine.

22 MR. WEINBERG: ?? as to any question

23 concerning prior testimony while he was in

24 Scientology because you didn't go into that in

25 direct and we didn't go into that in cross, if

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

674

1 that's okay.

2 MR. DANDAR: Your continuing objection, I

3 appreciate that rather than every question.

4 That's fine.

5 Q. Okay. So under what circumstance ?? tell

6 us about when you testified in court while you were

7 a Scientologist.

8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; narrative.

9 Q. Go ahead.

10 A. It was during the Gerry Armstrong trial of

11 ?? what was that? 1984 maybe.

12 Q. Who requested you to testify in the Gerry

13 Armstrong trial?

14 A. I don't remember exactly the name of the

15 person but there was a suit being brought

16 against ?? well, there was a suit and countersuit

17 and I was asked to by the Scientology organization.

18 Q. I'm sorry?

19 MR. WEINBERG: This is part of the

20 continuing objection, right?

21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes.

22 Q. I'm sorry. What organization were you

23 testifying on behalf of?

24 A. Well, I was testifying on behalf of

25 Scientology because I was a member of Author

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

675

1 Services at the time, but I was just testifying on

2 behalf of Scientology.

3 Q. Do you know who the Scientology party was

4 in that litigation with Mr. Armstrong?

5 A. It was Mary Sue Hubbard was the one, I

6 believe, was bringing the suit to try to recover

7 material that was alleged stolen by Mr. Armstrong.

8 Q. And did Mary Sue Hubbard or her attorney

9 retain you to testify in that case?

10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

11 A. Somebody did. Those things are not that

12 clear inside. You just ?? somebody else ?? any

13 senior can tell you you are going to testify and

14 you just show up.

15 Q. And what did you testify about?

16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; narrative and

17 it's part of my continuing objection.

18 A. When Mr. Armstrong had ?? I had been

19 working in the archives with Mr. Armstrong, which

20 is a different ?? a long ?? a different story I

21 won't get into, and when he left, by default the

22 archives fell to me to take care of. And so since

23 I was familiar with that and familiar with

24 Mr. Armstrong's work, I was called in about that

25 and some other research I had done into

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

676

1 Mr. Hubbard.

2 Q. Were you testifying on ?? were you

3 testifying against Mr. Armstrong?

4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

5 A. I was asked to testify against him, to,

6 you know, make it as negative as possible about

7 Mr. Armstrong, yes.

8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike, not

9 responsive.

10 Q. Were you testifying as a fact witness or

11 were you rendering any opinions?

12 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

13 A. Just a fact witness.

14 Q. Okay. What other cases have you testified

15 in in reference to Scientology while you were a

16 Scientologist?

17 MR. WEINBERG: Part of my continuing

18 objection?

19 MR. DANDAR: Yes.

20 A. That's all.

21 Q. All right. So just the Mr. Armstrong

22 case?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Weinberg asked you about Mr. Minton

25 donating money to the Friends of Animals Foundation

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

677

1 and giving money to Stacy Young.

2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the

3 statement. I think it mischaracterizes what I

4 said, but I assume that's not part of your

5 question.

6 MR. DANDAR: It was a preface.

7 Q. The question is why didn't Stacy or

8 Mr. Minton tell you about his donations back in

9 October or November of 1997, if you know?

10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

11 A. Well, I don't know why he wouldn't or

12 would either way, but as far as Stacy not telling

13 me, it was just the arrangement we had, that ?? it

14 was an objection that she sometimes had, that I

15 didn't pay attention to the money that was

16 deposited, and if she made money or I made money,

17 we just deposited it. It wasn't something we

18 discussed.

19 Q. Were there other instances where Stacy

20 would receive money from other sources, donations

21 or any other way and not tell you about it?

22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

23 How would he know?

24 Q. Did that happen before Mr. Minton ever

25 arrived on the scene?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

678

1 A. Oh, yes.

2 Q. And how would you find out if she put

3 money in the bank account without telling you about

4 it?

5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

6 scope. Objection as to the form.

7 MR. HANES: Object as to form.

8 A. I might discover it if I was dealing with

9 a bank balance or doing an ATM withdrawal and there

10 was a noticeable change and I might ask.

11 Q. So Stacy not telling you about

12 Mr. Minton's contributions either to the foundation

13 or to her directly, this is nothing new as far as

14 in time and reference to November or October 1997?

15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form.

16 MR. TITUS: Objection; leading.

17 MR. WEINBERG: Come on, Ken, you're on

18 direct. You can't ask a question like that.

19 Please.

20 A. No, it's not unusual.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg also asked you several

22 questions about your involvement in testifying or

23 being a consultant in cases involving Scientology.

24 Name for us every case that you served in as a

25 consultant for somebody who was suing any

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

679

1 Scientology organization?

2 A. The Dickerson case, she was suing ?? I

3 don't have the exact name of the defendant. It was

4 a communications group but it was basically the

5 Sally Jessy Raphael TV show.

6 Q. Was Dickerson a Scientologist?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did Dickerson retain you as a consultant?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Who retained you as a consultant?

11 A. The attorneys who were representing this

12 communications group which owned Sally Jessy

13 Raphael program.

14 Q. But the communications group, was that the

15 plaintiff or the defendants?

16 A. The defendant.

17 Q. All right. My question was name the cases

18 where you were a consultant for the person who was

19 the plaintiff, the one that filed the lawsuit,

20 against Scientology?

21 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood you.

22 Well, most recently, as came out, I'm being

23 retained by Mr. Leipold's firm, who is representing

24 Mr. Wollersheim.

25 Q. That's in the current Wollersheim

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

680

1 litigation?

2 A. Yes, or ongoing, you know, litigation.

3 Q. Okay. When did you first get retained in

4 that case?

5 A. Just a couple of months ago.

6 Q. Okay. So that was in '99?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. What other case have you been

9 retained as a consultant in someone who is suing

10 Scientology, that actually filed a lawsuit against

11 Scientology? And, of course, we're not going to

12 count this case because ?? for obvious, you're

13 here ??

14 MR. WEINBERG: Why wouldn't ?? wait. This

15 does count, right?

16 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, but ??

17 A. Oh, well, then I'll go ahead and name

18 this case just to get it on the record.

19 Q. Okay. So outside of the current

20 Wollersheim litigation and this case, are there any

21 other cases where you've been retained on the party

22 that actually filed the lawsuit against

23 Scientology?

24 A. That's the only one I can remember.

25 Q. So just those two?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

681

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. All right. What about cases ?? how many

3 cases are there where you have been retained as a

4 consultant where Scientology has filed suit against

5 someone?

6 A. Well, I'd have to pick up the Dickerson

7 case because I misunderstood the first time.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. I'm sorry.

10 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Just so it's ??

11 Scientology ?? I mean I'm sorry to interrupt

12 but I thought he explained, Ken, that

13 Dickerson is a person, not the Church of

14 Scientology, right?

15 MR. DANDAR: We'll correct that. We'll

16 correct that.

17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. But I mean that's

18 the ?? the question is ?? your question is

19 cases where the Church of Scientology has

20 sued ??

21 THE WITNESS: I misunderstood. It was my

22 error in responding.

23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. All right.

24 Q. Let's clear it up right now. Dickerson

25 was a Scientologist who sued the producer of the

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

682

1 Sally Jessy Raphael show?

2 A. Well, the Sally Jessy Raphael show and the

3 corporation that owned it.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Like suing CBS, as a ?? for example.

6 Q. And what is your understanding at the time

7 that suit was filed, was Dickerson a Scientologist,

8 just like a public member or staff member or what?

9 A. She was a staff member.

10 Q. Okay. And the communication company that

11 owned the show retained you as a consultant?

12 A. Yeah, the legal firm that was

13 representing ??

14 Q. Okay. All right. Were there any other

15 cases like that, where a Scientologist, an

16 individual, was suing somebody and you were

17 retained to consult the defense?

18 A. Not Scientologists. There is sort of a

19 weird one in the middle. I'm not sure what

20 category it would fall into. That was Elliott

21 Abelson, when he was suing Ford Greene and it

22 involved, you know, the litigation involving

23 Scientology, so ??

24 Q. Who is Elliott Abelson?

25 A. He's a Los Angeles attorney, I believe

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

683

1 he's out of Los Angeles, who had represented the

2 various Scientology entities in litigation.

3 Q. And Mr. Greene is also a lawyer?

4 A. Yes. He's up in the San Francisco Bay

5 area.

6 Q. And Mr. Greene retained you as a

7 consultant?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Anyone else involving individuals?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right. Tell us the cases where you've

12 been retained as a consultant for the defense in a

13 case that was brought by a Scientology organization

14 or corporation.

15 A. It started with what we call the Fishman

16 case, of course, I was retained in that. Then I

17 remember the other half of it, which was an

18 individual, which is Baybak, Michael Baybak. I

19 forgot about that. He's an individual who was

20 suing Time magazine.

21 Q. Was he, at the time he filed suit, a

22 public member or a staff member of Scientology?

23 A. No, he was a public member.

24 Q. Who were you consulting for?

25 A. Cahill Gordon.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

684

1 Q. And who is that?

2 A. They were representing Time magazine.

3 Q. Oh, that was the law firm?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Any others?

6 A. I was retained by Mr. Leipold in a suit

7 brought against ?? brought by Sterling Management

8 ?? not by Sterling Management per se, you know,

9 this is the way you end up knowing them, like

10 saying Sally Jessy Raphael rather than the actual

11 name of the defendant, by Sterling against CAN. He

12 retained me for consulting on that because he had

13 that case. There was the FACT Net case which was

14 ?? the plaintiffs changed around on that one.

15 Q. Do you recall the plaintiff?

16 A. Well, I forget who it finally ended up as

17 but it was moved around between RTC and bridge

18 Publications, but that was being brought against

19 FACT Net and that was the one where I testified in

20 court in Denver.

21 Q. And you were retained by FACT Net?

22 A. I was retained by Faegre Benson, which was

23 the firm representing FACT Net.

24 Q. Okay. Any others?

25 A. Seems like I'm missing something, seems

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

685

1 like it.

2 Q. Okay. I only have listed four cases in

3 which the defense who is representing the party

4 being sued by a Scientologist or a Scientology

5 organization. Is that all that you recall, is

6 four?

7 A. There was another one which was ??

8 Mr. Leipold had retained me in one of the CAN suits

9 to advise him on. I don't remember which one that

10 was. It was another lawsuit. The reason that

11 that's difficult is because he was handling ??

12 there was multiple lawsuits being brought against

13 CAN, so he was just retaining me sort of in general

14 because of those and I don't think that was a

15 particular one because he had so many.

16 MR. HANES: Objection and move to strike.

17 That answer is nonresponsive to your question.

18 MR. DANDAR: Please do that at the end of

19 his answer though. Okay?

20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. I thought it

21 was at the end of his answer.

22 MR. DANDAR: I didn't think so.

23 BY MR. DANDAR:

24 Q. How do these attorneys or their parties

25 that they represent find out about you?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

686

1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

2 A. Sometimes I didn't know. I certainly

3 didn't contact them. They would just ?? I'll give

4 an example. Mr. Berry and Mr. Leipold, the first

5 time we started, somebody had told them about me,

6 that I had 21 years in and I spoke the language and

7 the vocabulary, and so they just got my phone

8 number, called up and said can we talk, and sort of

9 pretty much the way you called me up and said can

10 we talk. People just find me later on through a

11 reference or some other attorney would refer. I

12 don't know sometimes how they found me, and I

13 wouldn't really ask. I'd just say okay and we'd

14 just take it from there.

15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike

16 that whole answer as to the narrative.

17 Q. Do you advertise anywhere that you are a

18 former Scientologist available as a consultant?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you go on the Internet and advertise

21 your availability as a consultant in Scientology

22 cases?

23 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

24 A. No, other than what was put into evidence

25 when I made some postings that I had been retained.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

687

1 No, I've never made any what might be called

2 promotional advertising of any type.

3 Q. Have you ever sent any type of

4 correspondence or any other type of communication

5 to lawyers offering your services?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. What type of work have you done since

8 leaving Scientology in 1989?

9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

10 What do you mean? You mean employment?

11 Q. Employment, where you make money to earn

12 a living. That was part of Mr. Weinberg's

13 cross?examination.

14 A. The first couple of years, a lot of

15 free?lancing, working for a couple of newspapers,

16 writing for a magazine.

17 Q. Tell us what you mean by free?lancing.

18 MR. WEINBERG: Before you get to that,

19 just for the record, the first couple of

20 years, that means '89 and '90, is that what

21 that means?

22 A. '89 to '90, '91, and the free?lancing

23 spilled over even up to the point like the Der

24 Spiegel article is freelance.

25 Q. Who did you freelance for?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

688

1 A. Well, free?lancing is just wherever you

2 can get your articles sold. I sold everywhere from

3 Elks magazine to Orange Coast magazine, which is a

4 regional magazine in Orange County, wherever you

5 can sell an article. You just present it, they

6 accept it and you get your check.

7 Q. What type of things were you writing

8 about?

9 A. Oh, wrote about the Internet, wrote about

10 the San Diego Zoo, I wrote about the dangers at the

11 San Diego airport, I wrote about ?? features on

12 people.

13 Q. Scientology people?

14 A. No. There was not a word ever of that.

15 The first thing ever where that word was even

16 mentioned was in the Quill article of what was

17 that, 1995 or something like that.

18 Q. The first time you wrote about Scientology

19 or Scientology people or anything to do with

20 Scientology was in Quill magazine?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about with

23 regard to a publication or are you talking

24 about with regard to declarations and

25 affidavits?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

689

1 MR. DANDAR: Publications as a writer.

2 A. The answer is yes.

3 Q. Okay. After leaving Scientology, when is

4 the first time you were retained as a consultant

5 involving Scientology?

6 A. That was in the Fishman case by

7 Mr. Berry's firm. I just lost the name of that

8 one, Calhoun.

9 Q. What year was that?

10 A. 1992 maybe.

11 Q. What type of awards did you receive as a

12 writer, free?lance writer after leaving

13 Scientology?

14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

15 A. I received a first place award from the

16 San Diego Press Club for best magazine article of

17 the year.

18 Q. What year was that?

19 A. That was ?? I believe that was 19 ?? I

20 believe that was 1990 or 1991. I think it was

21 first or second place from the San Diego Society of

22 Professional Journalists for the same article.

23 Q. Any other awards in writing?

24 A. No. No.

25 MR. DANDAR: Do you have all the exhibits

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

690

1 that were here yesterday?

2 MR. WEINBERG: I think so.

3 MR. DANDAR: Let me have those, please.

4 Q. Well, tell you what, Mr. Young, why don't

5 you just go in there and, if you would, please,

6 pull out Exhibit Number 6 and 7, that's Defendant's

7 6 and 7.

8 MR. WEINBERG: You know what? Maybe I can

9 find them for you.

10 A. I'm getting there. There is 6.

11 Q. Try to keep them in order.

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. Now, what ?? now 6 is the letter that was

14 sent to you by the Department of Labor, is that

15 correct?

16 A. Department of State.

17 Q. See, I got it backwards. Okay.

18 Department of State. And what was the purpose of

19 them sending you this letter?

20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

21 A. That ?? to give religious recognition to

22 the Church of Scientology and also to inform us

23 that the individuals that was the subject of the

24 dispute would be given a visa, be given their

25 visas. They were out of South Africa.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

691

1 Q. Why was the State Department of the United

2 States government sending you this letter, why you?

3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

4 A. I was the one when this thing had

5 happened with the Silcocks, S?i?l?c?o?c?k, was sent

6 back to Washington, D.C. to the State Department to

7 started dealing with this, and this was over a

8 period of, oh, a couple of months, so I was the one

9 that was dealing with this directly with the State

10 Department, so that's why the letter came to me.

11 Q. How was it that you were the only one in

12 Scientology dealing with the State Department?

13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

14 Q. Well, I mean ?? he's right about that

15 form. Was there anyone else dealing with the State

16 Department besides yourself?

17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of

18 foundation.

19 A. Not in this category, no.

20 Q. And who in Scientology designated you or

21 requested you to deal with the State Department

22 with this issue?

23 A. Arty Marin, who was the deputy guardian of

24 public relations.

25 Q. And what was your position in Scientology

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

692

1 at the time that you were dealing with the State

2 Department?

3 A. I was a member of the Snow White program,

4 which was ?? the purpose was to deal ?? one of the

5 things was to deal with difficulties with

6 government agencies, and so I ?? it fell to me to

7 go out and do this.

8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;

9 not responsive.

10 Q. When was the Snow White program?

11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

12 scope. We didn't go into that in

13 cross?examination.

14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's fine. I'm not

15 going to argue about it.

16 Q. What was the Snow White program?

17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection for the same

18 reason I just stated.

19 A. Put in the simplest terms, it was to,

20 basically, track down the sources of problems with

21 various government agencies. That's putting it in

22 the simplest of terms.

23 Q. And what was your position at Scientology

24 when you were part of this Snow White program?

25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Ken, I didn't

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

693

1 ask him anything about the Snow White program.

2 You went into it already.

3 MR. DANDAR: State your objection. Don't

4 speak. Just state it.

5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's beyond the

6 scope. We're going to sit ?? we're going to

7 go for another six hours?

8 MR. DANDAR: No. This letter and the

9 other one opened the door to everything that

10 this letter pertains to.

11 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't open the door to

12 anything. You can't go and reask questions

13 that you've already asked that we didn't

14 cross?examine on. Go ahead. That's my

15 objection.

16 BY MR. DANDAR:

17 Q. What was your position in Scientology when

18 you were part of this Snow White program that

19 resulted in Exhibit 6?

20 A. That was the only position. That's all

21 that was required.

22 Q. Okay. But what was your ?? were you in

23 the Guardian's Office at that time?

24 A. Yes, Guardian's Office, PR.

25 MR. HANES: Object to the form.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

694

1 Q. What city was that in?

2 A. Los Angeles.

3 Q. What did you do in order to accomplish the

4 State Department of the United States stating in

5 this letter of December 30th, 1974, that the Church

6 of Scientology is a, quote, religious denomination

7 having a bona fide organization in the United

8 States?

9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form,

10 objection; seeks a narrative.

11 A. Put in the simplest of terms, I went back

12 to find out who had been in charge of the Silcocks

13 immigration visa application within that section,

14 cornered him and started a screaming match, which

15 we were trained to do, and basically worked him

16 over until he said some seriously embarrassing

17 things, and then I took him down the hall to his

18 senior and we started doing embarrassing ?? to

19 embarrass the hell out of him, then sent in the

20 attorneys to threaten the lawsuits based upon

21 remarks made, and just basically, you know, put

22 their arms up behind their back until they ?? it

23 took about six weeks, maybe eight weeks to get this

24 and that's why they finally coughed it up.

25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

695

1 The only thing he didn't say, Ken, was that he

2 took a gun at him and stuck it to his head.

3 Come on. This is really improper.

4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. It's ??

5 Q. Mr. Young, he just states his objection.

6 Don't engage him.

7 THE WITNESS: It's true.

8 Q. Was there any proof concerning the bona

9 fides of any claim to being a religion of

10 Scientology that you used in order to secure this

11 visa problem?

12 A. We used a ??

13 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Objection as to

14 the form.

15 A. We used the book that was being used the

16 other day, the background and ceremonies book. We

17 didn't have much material at that time. Most of

18 what we had was pretty much in that, and as well as

19 any other newspaper stories that we might have

20 generated using the word Church of Scientology, and

21 these would be put into packs and that was the

22 follow?up that was done later on once we had them

23 in a ?? you know, once we were making them an offer

24 they couldn't refuse, and then you give them all

25 the material.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

696

1 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike;

2 nonresponsive.

3 Q. What do you mean making them an offer

4 they couldn't refuse?

5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

6 A. Well, simply presenting them with

7 material obviously hadn't worked, otherwise, we

8 would have gotten this recognition years before.

9 The Hubbard policy is to make or manufacture enough

10 threat, and so that's what we had to do, is we had

11 to make or manufacture enough threat.

12 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not

13 responsive.

14 Q. How long did this ?? how long did it take

15 you to succeed in getting this visa problem

16 corrected?

17 A. I don't remember. It seems like it was a

18 couple of months, maybe two, three months, most of

19 it being spent in just, you know, the long time it

20 takes governments to respond in just letters.

21 Q. Do you recall the names of the lawyers

22 that were involved in representing Scientology who

23 threatened to sue for these defamatory statements?

24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

25 A. No, I ?? no, I don't.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

697

1 Q. Okay. All right. Look at Exhibit

2 Number 7. That one is from the Department of

3 Labor, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And were you involved in securing a

6 designation or recognition from the US Department

7 of Labor in 1975 where they concluded that the

8 Church of Scientology has established itself as a

9 bona fide religious organization?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you do to secure that recognition

12 for the Church of Scientology?

13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

14 It asks for a narrative.

15 A. This one came about off of material

16 obtained ?? well, I don't know if it was ?? I'm

17 sorry. This was ?? this gets very complex. We

18 just ?? we were raided in 1977 for stealing

19 documents from the government, so we were working

20 from documents, some were FOI, some were stolen.

21 So we got a document, I don't know if it was stolen

22 or other FOIs, what I was going to say, but it had

23 information in there that was really quite

24 ridiculous. It said that Scientologists were given

25 electroshock, they carried rifles and things that,

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

698

1 you know, were ridiculous, you know, they were just

2 completely ridiculous.

3 So I was sent back to the Labor Department

4 to confront them with this. It was a labor thing.

5 In here it says the Foley memorandum. It was a

6 memo that was written by one Shirley Foley, as

7 spelled as in Shirley Temple. So I went back there

8 to find Shirley Foley and basically the same

9 tactic, went in there and pounded and screamed and

10 found out that Shirley was a guy, my first

11 surprise.

12 MR. WEINBERG: Are you done?

13 A. And basically did the same thing here but

14 it was mainly because it was so false, it was

15 mainly, after that, the threats of the attorneys.

16 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike. It's not

17 responsive. It was a narrative. It was

18 improper. Ken, this is not proper redirect.

19 All right? And I strongly object to this.

20 You could not do this in court. No judge

21 would allow you to do this. No judge would

22 allow Mr. Young to rant on like he's doing.

23 Q. What material did the Shirley memorandum

24 reference when you said it was false about having

25 guns or electroshock?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

699

1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

2 A. I didn't understand. What did it use as

3 its source of information?

4 Q. Right. What was the source of information

5 for that?

6 A. That was part of the problem. There was

7 no real source on it. It just said according to

8 various sources Scientologists use electroshock,

9 carry guns, and there was a number of other things

10 that were clearly from ?? some of it we could tell

11 was from newspaper articles, some others we

12 couldn't tell where it was from.

13 Q. And those allegations ??

14 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Move to strike;

15 not responsive.

16 Q. Those allegations against Scientology

17 were false, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So if those were false allegations, then

20 what source documents or resources did you use to

21 convince the Department of Labor to recognize the

22 Church of Scientology as a bona fide religious

23 organization?

24 A. Well, we did present materials regarding

25 the E?meter, which that seems to be what they were

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

700

1 talking about with electric shock. That's the only

2 thing we could talk about. There was nothing we

3 could present regarding rifles. We just dug up

4 what we could and between that and the threats, you

5 know, in the face, pound the desk threats was what

6 we did. It was a combination.

7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;

8 not responsive.

9 Q. Tell me what you mean by the threats.

10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

11 A. We were trained to, when it's required,

12 you go in there and you pound the table, you

13 scream, if you have to, you know, you're hauled out

14 by the police to make a scene, whatever was

15 required to get what you're going for.

16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike.

17 Q. Well, I'm trying to get more detailed

18 information on this. Is this like one instance,

19 did you actually yourself go in and do this at the

20 Department of State?

21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

22 Q. Excuse me. The Department of Labor?

23 A. Yes, I did this. I remember distinctly

24 pounding on his desk and screaming in his face.

25 Q. And who was this?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

701

1 A. Mr. Foley.

2 Q. And how long did that go on?

3 A. The screaming?

4 Q. Yes.

5 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, I have an objection to

6 this entire line of questions. Could I have a

7 continuing objection?

8 A. It was only just a matter of a few

9 minutes, a couple of minutes and he had to get out

10 of there and I just followed him to another office

11 and continued to scream.

12 Q. How long did that happen? Go on.

13 A. Then the seniors were brought in and he

14 left, and then we talked for another 15 minutes.

15 Q. And was that all that you had to do in

16 order to secure this designation?

17 A. No.

18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

19 Q. Did you do anything else?

20 A. I came back for another meeting and then

21 the attorneys sent in their letters and that was

22 the end of my direct contact with labor.

23 Q. And what do you mean the attorneys were

24 sent in?

25 A. By correspondence.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

702

1 Q. And how soon after that did you obtain

2 this letter from the Department of Labor?

3 MR. TITUS: Object to the form.

4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form.

5 A. This was several months. This might have

6 been three, maybe four months. This was a long

7 one.

8 Q. Was there anyone else in charge of

9 securing this designation from the Department of

10 Labor in 1975 other than you?

11 A. No. I was in charge.

12 Q. While you were a member for 21 years in

13 Scientology, was Scientology, throughout that time,

14 attempting to obtain tax exempt religious status?

15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you show me Exhibit 8, please? What

18 was the purpose of you writing this letter dated

19 July 22nd, 1975, to the assistant solicitor,

20 Department of Labor, in Washington, D.C.?

21 A. This was ?? now I remember. This was

22 after a phone call where they just said they

23 weren't able to take any further action and so I

24 had to summarize, and so that's why it contains

25 references to various letters and meetings that go

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

703

1 back to May, making the demand, sort of like the

2 final demand. So this letter was dated July 22nd,

3 '75, and the concession letter was in November.

4 Q. What was your position in Scientology at

5 the time you wrote that letter?

6 A. It was the same as the one for the

7 Department of State.

8 Q. And what is that?

9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asked and

10 answered.

11 A. The title would mean nothing. It was PR

12 liaison. It just was a title used for what we were

13 doing.

14 Q. And were you a member of the Sea Org at

15 that time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What was your hat, your position in

18 Scientology at that time?

19 A. Well, at that point with the letters, I

20 was PR liaison or deputy PR liaison.

21 Q. Okay. Now, when you joined Scientology,

22 that was in 1968?

23 A. Yes. Well, when I feel I became one by

24 reading the books.

25 Q. Okay. What was the name of the mother

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

704

1 church in Scientology at that time, in the late

2 '60s?

3 A. I didn't know a name. I just knew books.

4 I didn't even know there were churches. I was out

5 in the middle of California.

6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;

7 not responsive.

8 A. I assume you're asking about that time

9 what did I think.

10 Q. No. I'm asking if you actually knew at

11 that time that there was a mother church?

12 A. No, I didn't know.

13 Q. Okay. When did you first learn that there

14 was a mother church?

15 A. Not until I got my training in the

16 Guardian's Office a couple of years later.

17 Q. Okay. Did you learn the name of the

18 mother church at that time?

19 A. Well, not really. We didn't deal with the

20 corporate in that way. The organization was set up

21 quite differently. The Church of Scientology of

22 California was dominant because it was just there

23 like the advanced organization was there, but we

24 didn't deal with it in that way. Plus, the

25 Guardian's Office had its own network, so we didn't

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

705

1 have to deal with those churches in that way.

2 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not

3 responsive.

4 Q. Were you a member of Scientology when the

5 Church of Scientology International was formed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what was the Church of Scientology

8 International?

9 A. That's what became the mother church.

10 Q. Okay. Were you aware of the name of the

11 mother church before the incorporation of the

12 Church of Scientology International?

13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asked and

14 answered.

15 A. That was the Church of Scientology of

16 California.

17 Q. What happened to the Church of Scientology

18 of California?

19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

20 It's also beyond the scope.

21 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 10 opened the door to

22 that one too.

23 MR. WEINBERG: No door was open.

24 MR. DANDAR: Okay.

25 A. It basically just sort of ceased to be,

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

706

1 just became a shell. It just isn't there.

2 Q. And do you know why?

3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form;

4 outside the scope.

5 A. That's one of the arguments in the

6 Wollersheim case that's being argued, so I don't

7 want to step into that one too much.

8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike.

9 Q. You were shown also Exhibit 11, Defense

10 Exhibit 11, which is an RTC letter from the IRS

11 recognizing RTC as a tax exempt religious

12 organization.

13 A. Yes, I have it here.

14 Q. What is the purpose of the RTC?

15 A. That was ?? we covered that in cross as to

16 what ?? they are reading from the bylaws, unless

17 you are asking my opinion.

18 Q. No, I'm not asking you to read from the

19 bylaws. I'm basing this ?? my question is based

20 upon your experience in Scientology, what was the

21 purpose of RTC?

22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asks for a

23 narrative.

24 A. With the reorganization there used to be

25 two basic networks or what was called arm. One was

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

707

1 the Sea Organization and one was the Guardian's

2 Office, and RTC was to bring those two arms

3 together. So you had a Sea Org enforcement, at the

4 same time you had an enforcement through the

5 Guardian's Office channels so that you could get

6 enforcement and compliance, and that was ?? that's

7 what it was basically to do.

8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not

9 responsive.

10 Q. Based upon your experience within

11 Scientology, who had the more senior power to get

12 enforcement, RTC or the Sea Org?

13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form;

14 no foundation. This man has not been and will

15 never be qualified to give an opinion like

16 that, if that's what you're seeking.

17 A. Well, the Sea Org always had the power to

18 go into the organizations long before RTC was

19 formed or anything else. Its power is much more

20 old ?? much older, much more housed in Hubbard's

21 policies, and RTC just became the house where they

22 resided. It was the power of the Sea Org that went

23 into the RTC. They didn't derive their power from

24 RTC. It's almost as if RTC derived its power from

25 the Sea Org.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

708

1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;

2 not responsive.

3 Q. Mr. Weinberg asked you some questions

4 concerning the minister's course. Whose idea was

5 it for you to take the minister's course?

6 A. It was part of my qualifications that I ??

7 to be a PR, since I was going to be in public

8 relations, that I needed to do that so I could be a

9 minister.

10 Q. And you were shown a certificate dated I

11 believe February of 1970. Do you recall as you sit

12 here today when you completed the minister's

13 course?

14 A. No, but there was something ?? that's the

15 one time on any exhibit I would seriously question

16 on the date because, I'll say it again, I had never

17 even been into the San Francisco organization until

18 I was recruited into the Guardian's Office, and I

19 had been in Davis for a couple of years. So that

20 ?? the minister's course was in San Francisco. The

21 earliest it could have been would have been '71 and

22 even then it would have been later in '71.

23 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike.

24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to

25 strike; not responsive.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

709

1 Q. Within your experience within

2 Scientology, why does Scientology use the cross ??

3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

4 Q. ?? that Mr. Weinberg was asking you

5 about?

6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of

7 foundation, particularly in light of his

8 testimony on cross?examination where he said

9 that he professed not to know.

10 Q. If you know, answer the question.

11 A. I'm sorry. I got lost between his ?? his

12 objection and your question.

13 Q. They are speaking objections. They are

14 all totally improper.

15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me. The

16 question is totally improper.

17 Q. Why does Scientology ??

18 MR. DANDAR: Just object.

19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that's what I'm

20 trying to do.

21 MR. DANDAR: Just object to the form.

22 You know speaking objections are improper.

23 MR. WEINBERG: And you know that it's not

24 proper to ??

25 MR. DANDAR: Here we go.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

710

1 MR. WEINBERG: ?? continue to ask

2 questions like why this and why that. Come

3 on.

4 MR. DANDAR: Really? Why is it not a

5 good question?

6 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not.

7 BY MR. DANDAR:

8 Q. Why does Scientology use the cross?

9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form;

10 lack of foundation.

11 A. As it was instructed to me, it was to

12 make us have the appearance of a religion, along

13 with the garb.

14 MR. TITUS: Move to strike.

15 Q. And who instructed you?

16 A. When I was being trained in the Guardian's

17 Office, Department 20, as to religious image.

18 Q. Did the name of the Guardian's Office

19 change?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what is the name it now has?

22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

23 A. It's still Department 20 but now it's

24 called the Office of Special Affairs.

25 Q. What is a flap in Scientology definition?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

711

1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

2 scope. We already went over that in direct

3 and we didn't go into that in cross.

4 MR. DANDAR: My notes say you did.

5 A. It's just a situation that needs

6 handling. If it's a big flap, it's called a Hill

7 10.

8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;

9 not responsive.

10 THE COURT REPORTER: A what?

11 THE WITNESS: Hill 10, with number 10.

12 BY MR. DANDAR:

13 Q. Now, you, on cross?examination, mentioned

14 that you had some involvement in publishing the

15 book What is Scientology. Can you please tell us

16 what your involvement was in that publication?

17 A. It came out ?? the first time it came out

18 was a number of years ago in a totally different ??

19 a much smaller, different version, and I was

20 involved in helping to just write portions of it,

21 do some editing of it. It was produced by

22 Department 20 in order to create religious image

23 and get copies to the government.

24 Q. Was there any other department besides

25 Department 20 while you were in Scientology that

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

712

1 was used to create this religious image?

2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

3 A. No. Department 20 is in charge of it.

4 Q. Based upon your years of experience in

5 Scientology, is there any part of Scientology that

6 has religious beliefs rather than science?

7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form of

8 the question. He's not qualified, and among

9 other things, he's not qualified to render an

10 opinion like that, if one could ever be.

11 A. Internally, people just simply believe in

12 the tech, and Mr. Hubbard, from day one, was saying

13 it was very scientific, it was very empirical, it

14 could be proven, it could be tested and it was

15 never a matter of belief and ?? I mean never used

16 the term religious practice except externally. It

17 was just a matter of standard tech, as Mr. Weinberg

18 said, just doing it in an exact way, like repairing

19 a car. There is just certain steps that you do to

20 track down and see it's the carburetor and then you

21 fix it.

22 MR. TITUS: Move to strike; speculation,

23 lack of foundation, based on hearsay.

24 Q. Within your experience ?? within your

25 experience as a Scientologist, was there any ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

713

1 ever any other occasion where you were taught that

2 something depended upon faith rather than actual

3 science?

4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike.

5 A. Faith ??

6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form

7 and it's ?? go ahead.

8 Q. That's all right. Go ahead.

9 A. Faith, the idea of faith in Scientology

10 would be just a complete contradiction to

11 everything ever taught. The last thing you should

12 have is faith because at the other end of faith,

13 perhaps, let's just say, is knowledge. Faith

14 requiring the belief of something that's not there,

15 that's not provable. He kept insisting it was

16 provable, therefore, there was no ?? to be no faith

17 in the tech, there was to be knowledge.

18 MR. TITUS: Move to strike; beyond the

19 scope of direct.

20 Q. The question from Mr. Weinberg, he asked

21 you where does the authority come from in

22 Scientology, does it come from a post in the org,

23 and you answered yes and no, and he invited you to

24 explain that on redirect. So can you please

25 explain what you mean by your answer yes and no?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

714

1 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, I object as

2 to the form. I don't believe that that's what

3 I said, but subject to that, why don't you go

4 ahead and answer.

5 A. Well, we could take it at the very top.

6 Mr. Miscavige's authority has always been based

7 upon Mr. Miscavige. It's never been based upon any

8 chairman of the board. The RTC became the most

9 senior organization with the most power rather than

10 ASI because he moved from ASI to RTC. The power

11 that comes down within Scientology organizations is

12 simply the power that is carried and recognized.

13 This is a very difficult thing to describe to

14 people, but it's because it's something that you

15 simply have to learn.

16 Internally, it's very simple. There is an

17 organizational chart. There is seniors and there

18 is juniors. And then this other little thing comes

19 in. One day somebody else just comes in and they

20 are from some other organization or some other

21 echelon and they've got power and that's all

22 you've ?? have to learn, is they've just got the

23 power to do what they want.

24 Q. If they had the power ??

25 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

715

1 responsive.

2 Q. If they had the power to do what they

3 want, you said from some other echelon, is that

4 other echelon always the Sea Org?

5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

6 Come on, Ken.

7 Q. Or is it something else?

8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

9 A. It's always going to be some sort of Sea

10 Organization organization.

11 Q. Explain to us what you mean by how someone

12 can come in from some other Sea Org echelon and say

13 they have the power.

14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

15 MR. POLLI: Objection to the form.

16 MR. WEINBERG: It totally

17 mischaracterizes what he just said.

18 Q. What do you mean ??

19 MR. WEINBERG: What he said was ??

20 MR. DANDAR: Please, no speaking

21 objections.

22 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then don't

23 misrepresent ??

24 MR. DANDAR: I'll rephrase it. I'll

25 rephrase it.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

716

1 Q. Describe for us what you mean that

2 someone else from another echelon can come in and

3 have the power over someone else.

4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

5 That's incomprehensible.

6 MR. TITUS: Objection to the form; beyond

7 the scope.

8 Q. Go ahead.

9 A. The ?? Hubbard wrote about using uniforms

10 in the Sea Org, for the Sea Organization to use

11 uniforms so that it becomes recognizable and for

12 the magazines, et cetera, to promote them in

13 uniforms, so that, for example, Sea Organization

14 personnel arrive, people follow orders.

15 Mr. Weinberg cited an example earlier

16 where some people had stole some information. I

17 think he's probably referring to the one in the UK

18 once, and that was an example where somebody,

19 people, put on Sea Org uniforms, they were not Sea

20 Org, walked into the organization and because these

21 people just respond to the uniform, very Pavlovian,

22 they asked for the information, they walked out and

23 they had it. It just comes with ?? you just

24 recognize the uniform and you just obey, like

25 you're obeying the cops.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

717

1 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Hold on. Move

2 to strike; not responsive. But also, I object

3 because it's offensive, the suggestions that

4 Mr. Young is interjecting, Pavlovian and all

5 that. Come on. I mean that's just offensive

6 and it's improper and I don't know what the

7 point is. It's certainly not ever admissible,

8 but I object and I ask you to just get on with

9 doing a proper redirect.

10 Q. Let's take the Flag Service Organization

11 in Clearwater as an example, and their most senior

12 officer. Who, within your 21 years of experience

13 in Scientology, who has the power to appoint the

14 most senior officer at the Flag Service

15 Organization?

16 A. It could come in various ways. It could

17 come directly from David Miscavige, it could come

18 out of the watch dog committee, it could come out

19 of CMO, it could come out of CSI, it could come out

20 of various places that it could come out of. It

21 depends upon why the person has to be appointed.

22 If somebody has to be removed because there was a

23 flap, it depends upon how high it goes up and,

24 therefore, how, you know, how they get appointed.

25 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike;

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

718

1 nonresponsive, based on pure speculation and

2 based upon his own testimony.

3 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a break. Let's

4 take a couple minutes.

5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, thanks. I was just

6 about to ask for one.

7 MR. DANDAR: You look like you need one.

8 MR. WEINBERG: Now, what's going to

9 happen here is that it's very obvious ?? I

10 want to be on tape. I want to be on tape.

11 If I was in court, based on the last

12 exchange between Mr. Garko and Mr. Dandar,

13 what's going to happen now is there is going

14 to be some woodshedding with this witness, and

15 I object, and I think it's improper and it

16 would be improper for you to go out with this

17 witness and woodshed him about his answers.

18 MR. HERTZBERG: This is a trial

19 deposition.

20 MR. WEINBERG: This is at trial and that

21 wouldn't be proper.

22 MR. DANDAR: And, you know, I happen to

23 know that. Gee whiz, wowee.

24 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead.

25 MR. DANDAR: Okay? So take a break,

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

719

1 Vaughn, go ahead and stretch and use the rest

2 room.

3 THE WITNESS: No. I'm going to go

4 downstairs for a minute.

5 (Recess.)

6 BY MR. DANDAR:

7 Q. I believe on cross?examination you were

8 asked the question about command lines and you said

9 command lines versus corporate lines. Are command

10 lines corporate lines?

11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

12 A. No.

13 Q. What are command lines?

14 A. Command lines are that line on which

15 orders or information and compliance to orders

16 travel.

17 Q. Does it have any interaction with the

18 corporate structure?

19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

20 A. In reality, no.

21 Q. On cross you answered the question whether

22 RTC is responsible for protecting the trademarks or

23 marks of Scientology and you said no. Can you

24 explain that?

25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection because I don't

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

720

1 think that's what he said.

2 Q. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but did

3 you say that on cross?

4 A. Well, I ?? sometimes the questions that I

5 get asked are composites and I may have responded

6 no to that, because I know later on I did admit

7 that that was included in it but I guess I'd have

8 to figure out which question I was responding to.

9 Q. Is RTC in Scientology responsible for

10 Scientology's trademarks?

11 MR. TITUS: Object to the form.

12 A. RTC is responsible for the trademarks,

13 yes.

14 Q. And is RTC composed only of Sea Org

15 members?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is a corrective mission?

18 A. It's Sea Org personnel, two or more, sent

19 into an area to basically fix or correct something

20 that is wrong with the organization.

21 Q. And what corporations can the Sea Org

22 members be from?

23 A. Any. RTC, for example, located in

24 California could bring somebody in from let's say

25 Copenhagen and send them to South Africa. They

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

721

1 don't have to be coming directly out of the RTC

2 organization, they just have to be Sea Org

3 personnel.

4 Q. What types of things do corrective

5 missions accomplish, what do they do?

6 MR. TITUS: Object to the form; lack of

7 foundation.

8 A. They could do anything from change of

9 personnel to going in and let's say an organization

10 has not been producing promotion, to go in and fix

11 to get the promotion, it might be sent in for a

12 legal case, it might be sent in for any number of

13 reasons. There is just ?? anything that felt needs

14 to be corrected can be corrected, from personnel to

15 legal.

16 Q. When you say that it's sent in to change

17 personnel, what type of personnel are we talking

18 about?

19 A. Anybody within the organization, the

20 mission has the authority to make those changes as

21 if they were staff of the organization, as if it

22 was a commanding officer of the organization.

23 Q. Is there any limitation on the rank of the

24 personnel that they can remove?

25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

722

1 A. No. The Sea Org mission has the

2 seniority over all the ranks within the

3 organization.

4 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not

5 responsive.

6 Q. Now, on cross?examination you testified

7 that Scientology was reorganized in the early

8 1980s. Do you know why it was reorganized while

9 you were there?

10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Why is that?

13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

14 A. Because after the raid of 1977, with Mary

15 Sue Hubbard and the executives going to jail, the

16 Guardian's Office or Department 20 had been pretty

17 much decimated and Hubbard had lost his command

18 lines in, and so new barriers had to be put up, new

19 structure had to be put in to basically fix

20 everything that ?? so it would never happen again.

21 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not

22 responsive.

23 Q. What do you mean by Hubbard lost his

24 command lines after the FBI raid?

25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

723

1 A. Well, Hubbard had been in command of

2 Scientology basically from day one, and when he was

3 on the ship, it was just a long?distance command

4 line. He always had some means of establishing his

5 command lines in. And after the raid, when he had

6 to simply take off, new methods of coming in other

7 than through what is called the commodore's

8 messengers organization had to be reestablished

9 because all of that was known and the basis that he

10 had used was known. So new avenues had to be

11 created and that was going to be ASI and RTC.

12 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not

13 responsive. Move to strike; lack of

14 foundations.

15 Q. But in plain, simple terms, can you tell

16 the jury what you mean by command lines had to be

17 reestablished?

18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form

19 because it's based on other improper questions

20 and answers that were given previously.

21 A. It was basically illegal for Hubbard to

22 be running the organization as he was doing it and,

23 in fact, he constantly denied that he was running

24 the organization, saying he had resigned all of his

25 positions and he was just simply a consultant,

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

724

1 advisor, founder, et cetera, whereas, he was really

2 keeping track of statistics and issuing various

3 orders in. And so that had to be maintained but it

4 had to be maintained covertly.

5 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not

6 responsive, narrative, and a host of other

7 problems that I guess can be addressed at

8 trial with an answer like that.

9 Q. Upon Hubbard's death, did any one person

10 or group of people take over his authority in

11 Scientology?

12 MR. TITUS: Object to the form.

13 A. Eventually.

14 Q. And who was that?

15 A. Well, eventually it was David Miscavige.

16 Q. Did that happen while you were still a

17 member of Scientology?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did Mr. Miscavige have the same

20 authority as Mr. Hubbard or was it any different in

21 any way?

22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

23 A. Well, I'd say other than the charisma and

24 the tradition and being he was the founder, et

25 cetera, of course, he can't carry any of that, but

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

725

1 as far as authority, he certainly has carried the

2 authority.

3 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike;

4 nonresponsive.

5 Q. Was Scientology your former religion?

6 A. No, if you meant how I started, no.

7 Q. As you sit here today and look back, what

8 was Scientology to you?

9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

10 You're asking for a narrative.

11 A. It was a philosophy, that's how I always

12 approached it, coming out of the philosophy major,

13 it was that as well as I would call a social

14 program.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you some questions

16 about articles or something written by Mr. Hubbard

17 and you responded that you have actually authored

18 some things for Mr. Hubbard's signature. What are

19 you talking about?

20 A. I authored almost all, except the last

21 couple of paragraphs, of the disconnection issue

22 which came out in I think it was possibly 1985.

23 Q. When you say disconnection issue, what

24 type of issue ?? what are you talking about?

25 A. I believe that was the title of it. It

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

726

1 was the reestablishment of disconnection because it

2 had been canceled, and that policy which came out

3 under Mr. Hubbard's name reestablished the policy.

4 Q. What is disconnection?

5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

6 scope.

7 A. Disconnection is where a person in a PTS

8 situation, in a PTS situation, Hubbard policy had

9 always been either handle or disconnect. For a

10 long while the disconnect was canceled as an

11 alternative and that was reestablished, which means

12 the person no longer has any communications,

13 dealings with or contact with the other person.

14 Q. What is a PTS situation?

15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

16 scope.

17 A. PTS stands for ??

18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; calls for a

19 narrative.

20 A. PTS stands for potential trouble source,

21 and the manifestations of that is the person is

22 having difficulties in life, getting sick, going up

23 and down, and that will be traced to them being

24 connected to a suppressive person. That's the

25 person they have to disconnect from.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

727

1 Q. Disconnection means what?

2 A. To have no ??

3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

4 scope. Objection; calls for a narrative.

5 A. It means that they have no further

6 contact with them, they can't see them, speak with

7 them, live in the same house with them, having no

8 dealings with them, et cetera.

9 Q. Does PTS include PTS Type III or is that

10 something different?

11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

12 Objection; beyond the scope. Ken, we did not

13 go into this in cross?examination.

14 A. It's one of the three types of PTS.

15 There is PTS I, II and III.

16 Q. Is the disconnection issue that you

17 authored for Mr. Hubbard include PTS Type III?

18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

19 A. It just covers PTS. It doesn't really go

20 into the types.

21 Q. Well, that was ?? my clarifying question

22 was does it cover one particular type of PTS or all

23 types of PTS?

24 A. All types.

25 Q. Now, in Exhibit 38 ?? do you want to pull

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

728

1 that out?

2 MR. WEINBERG: What is Exhibit 38?

3 THE WITNESS: I'm about to find out.

4 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know, Ken?

5 MR. DANDAR: It's something that RTC is

6 mentioned in, something you asked him about.

7 A. It's the license agreement between RTC

8 and CSI dated 18 May '82.

9 Q. Now, you were asked the question whether

10 or not this was issued by Mr. Hubbard and you

11 answered until a certain point.

12 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me? I didn't ask

13 that question.

14 A. Not on this document.

15 Q. All right. Then look at Exhibit 40, Ron's

16 Journal?

17 A. Okay. This is Ron's Journal 38 dated

18 December 31, 1983.

19 Q. Okay. Is this the document that you said

20 it was issued by Mr. Hubbard until a certain point?

21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

22 A. I don't believe ?? I don't remember using

23 those words for that ?? this document.

24 Q. Okay. Did you help to compile Exhibit 38?

25 A. Yes.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

729

1 Q. Which is the license agreement on the

2 marks ??

3 A. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was back still

4 on 40.

5 Q. And I may have the exhibit ??

6 MR. WEINBERG: You just covered it. You

7 just missed it.

8 Q. I may have the exhibits mixed up.

9 MR. WEINBERG: You just asked him if he

10 helped to put together the license agreement,

11 is that what you're asking?

12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.

13 MR. WEINBERG: 38. The question is did

14 you assist in composing or compiling the

15 license agreement, is that the question?

16 MR. DANDAR: That's the question.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. Did you assist in compiling Ron's

19 Journal Number 38?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. That's Exhibit 40.

23 Q. That's Exhibit 40. All right. And what

24 parts did you assist in?

25 A. The way it got restructured is it's

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

730

1 scattered around. I was helping to compile various

2 paragraphs and statistics, because the information

3 was coming into ASI to send up to ?? for this to be

4 issued. I can see pieces of it. It wasn't in the

5 case of where I wrote text, et cetera. There was

6 parts that I wrote and then just pieces were then

7 reedited and restructured by somebody else.

8 Q. Okay. You were asked ?? if you would turn

9 to page 4 of Exhibit 40, under the title

10 International.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It talks about the full reorganization of

13 corporate status of all Scientology churches and

14 corporations accomplished a year ago. This legally

15 blocks and prevents further takeovers, attacks,

16 false suits and power pushes.

17 Do you have any personal knowledge what

18 Mr. Hubbard is talking about when he says false

19 suits?

20 A. Well ??

21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

22 scope.

23 A. Well, any suit brought against

24 Scientology is considered false, so it's almost

25 like a redundancy.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

731

1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;

2 lack of foundation, nonresponsive.

3 Q. And do you know what Mr. Hubbard means

4 when he writes also that the reorganization was to

5 prevent attacks?

6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

7 Just so it's clear, you're asking Mr. Young as

8 to what Mr. Hubbard meant when he used a word?

9 MR. DANDAR: Right. He assisted in ??

10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of

11 foundation.

12 MR. DANDAR: He assisted in the

13 compilation of Exhibit 40.

14 MR. WEINBERG: I believe he said he

15 compiled some numbers or figures and I don't

16 think he said that he sat down with L. Ron

17 Hubbard and composed it.

18 MR. DANDAR: It's also the same paragraph

19 you questioned him about.

20 MR. WEINBERG: The objection stands.

21 BY MR. DANDAR:

22 Q. Go ahead.

23 A. The idea was to insulate Hubbard behind

24 several barriers so that if organizations were

25 attacked, the idea was that RTC was to be like a

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

732

1 lightning rod. They were to collect the suits or

2 would be able to step in and take it over, because

3 the problem before was the Church of Scientology of

4 Boston might get a suit and you had to be able to

5 always allow somebody to come in and take it over

6 and that's how you redirect the attack.

7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;

8 it was not responsive to the question.

9 MR. TITUS: Also lack of foundation.

10 Q. How do you know that, Mr. Young?

11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form.

12 A. Because this has been under discussion

13 and been discussed quite a bit around ASI.

14 Q. Were you part of those discussions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would participate in those discussions?

17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

18 scope.

19 A. David Miscavige, Lehman Spurlock, Norman

20 Starkey, a couple of different attorneys, Sherman

21 Lentz.

22 Q. How would RTC you said be a lightning rod

23 in case the Boston org got sued?

24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

25 Objection; beyond the scope.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

733

1 A. Because of the licensing agreement, they

2 have the authority to step in and the idea was to

3 have them at least become parties to the case, if

4 they could.

5 Q. Now, when you said you participated in

6 some of the compilation of Exhibit 40, Ron's

7 Journal 38, did you actually write paragraphs to

8 this or did you just provide information that

9 someone else wrote the paragraphs, or what?

10 A. Oh, I wrote paragraphs. I just was

11 chuckling to myself a while ago because I

12 recognized a few phrases but, I don't know, he

13 might have used the same phrase or somebody else

14 might have, but it got broken up.

15 Q. What do you mean by broken up?

16 A. Well, I wrote a number of paragraphs,

17 several pages, and pieces were used but no

18 paragraphs were used. There is some sentences that

19 are mine that I recognize.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not this

21 reorganization that Mr. Hubbard writes about in

22 Ron's Journal 38, which is the Defendant's

23 Exhibit 40, has anything to do with the Wollersheim

24 judgment obtained against the mother church?

25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

734

1 MR. TITUS: Beyond the scope.

2 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on one second. Go

3 ahead.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what is that?

6 A. Well, part of the thing was to reorganize

7 it to try to ?? you know, to move everything away

8 from the Wollersheim case.

9 Q. How so?

10 A. Well, that was one of the purposes of the

11 Church of Scientology of California being gutted,

12 was so that there would be nothing there, so other

13 organizations could take over.

14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;

15 lack of foundation.

16 Q. Were you a member in ASI or some other

17 Scientology organization when Mr. Wollersheim

18 obtained his 32 million dollar judgment against the

19 Church of Scientology in California?

20 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike. It's an

21 improper question. It's also way beyond the

22 scope of any of your direct, and don't even

23 suggest that somebody opened the door. Okay?

24 So just go ahead, you know you can't ask the

25 question.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

735

1 MR. DANDAR: It's called the scope of

2 cross?examination.

3 MR. WEINBERG: It's way beyond the scope

4 of cross?examination and you know that.

5 Nobody said anything about a Wollersheim

6 judgment.

7 BY MR. DANDAR:

8 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

9 A. I was in Department 20 at the time.

10 Q. Were you part of any discussions about

11 gutting the mother church, the Church of

12 Scientology of California, so that Mr. Wollersheim

13 would not be able to collect on his judgment?

14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

15 Move to strike; beyond the scope of

16 cross?examination. Ken, this is

17 irresponsible. It is outrageous. It is

18 wasting our time and we're going to move for

19 sanctions.

20 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead.

21 MR. WEINBERG: We are going to move for

22 sanctions. It's just an absolute waste of

23 time and you know you could never get this in,

24 you know it's improper in this stage. You

25 didn't try it in direct, we didn't touch on it

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

736

1 cross?examination, and now you're asking

2 questions that are so improper that it's

3 ludicrous. And you know that you ?? and

4 you're just wasting every lawyer in this

5 room's time.

6 Q. What's your answer?

7 MR. WEINBERG: And there is other

8 litigation that Mr. Young has already

9 testified that he's a part of, and so what

10 you're trying to do is to use the redirect in

11 this case for purposes of another lawsuit and

12 that is improper and you know it is.

13 MR. HERTZBERG: By the way, he refused to

14 discuss anything he did for Mr. Liepold. Now,

15 you realize these questions are for the

16 benefit of Mr. Leipold.

17 MR. DANDAR: Please.

18 MR. HERTZBERG: But whenever

19 Mr. Leipold's name came up in any part of the

20 discovery deposition, a work product privilege

21 was ??

22 MR. DANDAR: I'm objecting to you talking

23 during the deposition.

24 MR. WEINBERG: I'll say that then. You

25 know what ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

737

1 MR. DANDAR: That's fine.

2 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no. Hold on.

3 MR. DANDAR: You stated your objection.

4 How long do you want to talk?

5 MR. WEINBERG: I've got another

6 objection.

7 MR. DANDAR: All right.

8 MR. WEINBERG: And that's the one that

9 was just mentioned. We took Mr. Young's

10 discovery deposition and every time we asked

11 him a question as to what he was doing with

12 regard to anything else, particularly ?? he

13 wouldn't even admit that he did anybody in the

14 Wollersheim case.

15 MR. DANDAR: He talked to you about the

16 affidavit.

17 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, after the first time

18 when he refused to, wouldn't even tell us that

19 he had done it in it. I mean come on. You

20 talk about something improper. And then we

21 were limited to what was it, two hours because

22 of the fact that you sat on an affidavit.

23 MR. DANDAR: I did?

24 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you did.

25 MR. DANDAR: Oh, really.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

738

1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you did. You knew

2 that we were entitled to have an affidavit

3 that had already been executed two weeks

4 before we took his deposition in a Scientology

5 case with regard to ??

6 MR. DANDAR: Right. I'm interested in

7 how you know what I know. I'm interested in

8 how you know what I know.

9 MR. WEINBERG: If you don't know that

10 your so?called expert with another lawyer that

11 you have been dealing with for years ??

12 MR. DANDAR: How is it that I know?

13 MR. WEINBERG: If you don't know that,

14 then, you know what, then something very funny

15 is going on in this case.

16 MR. DANDAR: Don't make statements

17 accusing me of misconduct unless you know.

18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, are you saying that

19 you didn't know at the time we took

20 Mr. Young's deposition that he had executed an

21 affidavit in the Wollersheim case? Are you

22 saying you didn't know that?

23 MR. DANDAR: That's right.

24 MR. WEINBERG: Are you saying you ??

25 well, you know, Mr. Prince ??

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

739

1 MR. DANDAR: That is absolutely right.

2 MR. WEINBERG: You know what? Mr. Prince

3 said in his deposition when he was in that

4 hotel room with Mr. Young, when they were

5 apparently doing this, that he was

6 communicating with you, that's what he said.

7 MR. DANDAR: On this case.

8 MR. WEINBERG: No, but you know what ??

9 MR. DANDAR: All right. Stop. Come on.

10 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, is it absolutely ??

11 MR. DANDAR: You're wearing me out and

12 I'm sure the deponent is getting worn out.

13 MR. WEINBERG: It is unbelievable for you

14 to make a statement like that.

15 BY MR. DANDAR:

16 Q. Do you remember the question, Mr. Young?

17 A. No.

18 MR. WEINBERG: How can we have any

19 confidence that we've been ??

20 MR. DANDAR: I hate to ask you this.

21 MR. WEINBERG: ?? given in the discovery

22 in this case, if you don't know that your

23 so?called expert did a what, a 20?page

24 affidavit in a case that he was paid for with

25 a lawyer that you have been communicating with

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

740

1 for years.

2 MR. DANDAR: No ??

3 MR. WEINBERG: Who you sat with in a

4 deposition with Mr. Young three years ago.

5 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Stop.

6 BY MR. DANDAR:

7 Q. Mr. Young, here's the question again,

8 because I think it's probably 30 pages before the

9 court reporter could find out where it is.

10 A. The question was ??

11 Q. Did the reorganization of all the

12 organizations and corporations of the Church of

13 Scientology, as stated by Mr. Hubbard on page 4 of

14 the Defendant's Exhibit 40, have anything to do

15 with bankrupting the mother church, the Church of

16 Scientology of California, so that Mr. Wollersheim

17 would not be able to collect on his suit that he

18 brought against that organization?

19 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection that we had

20 before.

21 MR. DANDAR: Fine. Noted.

22 Q. If you know.

23 A. The reorganization itself, no. It was

24 just its own tactic.

25 Q. Okay.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

741

1 MR. WEINBERG: Just think where we would

2 have been if you would have let him answer the

3 question before.

4 MR. WEINBERG: Think where we would have

5 been if you didn't ask such an improper

6 question.

7 Q. Now, what is squirreling in Scientology

8 lingo?

9 A. Squirreling is ??

10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of

11 foundation. Go ahead.

12 A. Squirreling is where you alter or change

13 the methodology, and it could be intentional or

14 accidental.

15 Q. Why would Scientologists want to change or

16 deviate from the tech of Scientology?

17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to form; lack

18 of foundation as well.

19 A. Some might think they can improve upon

20 it.

21 MR. WEINBERG: Of course, this has a lot

22 to do with the Lisa McPherson lawsuit, Ken,

23 right?

24 MR. DANDAR: It only has to do with your

25 cross?examination, which, right, has nothing

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

742

1 to do with the Lisa McPherson case.

2 MR. WEINBERG: I wouldn't have had to

3 cross?examine Mr. Young if you hadn't have

4 called him as a so?called expert in this case.

5 BY MR. DANDAR:

6 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg wanted you to talk about

7 your letter that you were ordered to write to

8 denounce Mr. Broeker while you were on the RPF.

9 Can you tell us what the RPF is?

10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form

11 and objection because it's beyond the scope of

12 cross?examination.

13 A. RPF stands for rehabilitation project

14 force.

15 Q. And why were you on the RPF?

16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection; asks

17 for a narrative. Objection; beyond the scope

18 of cross?examination.

19 MR. DANDAR: All right. Let's change

20 tapes.

21 MR. WEINBERG: What, are we just going to

22 sort of do the direct again, Ken?

23 (Recess.)

24 BY MR. DANDAR:

25 Q. What is the RPF?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

743

1 A. Rehabilitation project force.

2 Q. Why were you in the RPF?

3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

4 scope.

5 MR. POLLI: Form.

6 MR. WEINBERG: Asks for a narrative.

7 Objection as to the form.

8 A. Put in the most succinct way, after the

9 power struggle, I was on the ?? sort of the short

10 end of the stick and so I got sent off to the RPF.

11 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike.

12 Q. What types of things were you ?? did you

13 do in the RPF?

14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

15 scope.

16 MR. TITUS: Objection to the form.

17 MR. WEINBERG: Please, Ken, this has

18 absolutely nothing to do with the Lisa

19 McPherson case. It has nothing to do with my

20 cross?examination.

21 MR. DANDAR: You referred to a Ms. ?? a

22 Pat Broeker letter that you insisted on him

23 talking about.

24 MR. WEINBERG: No, you questioned him

25 about it.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

744

1 MR. DANDAR: No, no, please, no more.

2 Stop. Please. You've objected.

3 Q. What did you do on the RPF? What is

4 that? What do you do there?

5 A. It's ??

6 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection.

7 A. ?? 12 hours of hard labor and then in the

8 evening you study or undergo confessionals,

9 interrogations or do ethics conditions or ?? that's

10 seven days a week. I was on it for 16 months.

11 MR. TITUS: Move to strike; nonresponsive.

12 Q. Did Mr. Miscavige ever communicate to you

13 that you were disloyal or untrustworthy because you

14 took the wrong side in this takeover of

15 Scientology?

16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection;

17 outside the scope. Objection to form.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how did he communicate to you?

20 A. He wrote to me that that was the reason I

21 was on the RPF.

22 Q. Because you took sides with Broeker versus

23 him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he communicate that you were declared

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

745

1 apostate or unloyal to him and Scientology?

2 A. No.

3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

4 Q. What did he tell you or what did he

5 communicate to you?

6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the

7 scope.

8 MR. TITUS: Objection.

9 A. Just that that was the reason why I was

10 on the RPF and basically he wished me well and

11 hoping I'd get through the program.

12 Q. And do you have any proof of that?

13 A. Well, he sent me a letter on it.

14 Q. Do you have that letter with you?

15 A. I gave it to you.

16 Q. I have the letter?

17 A. Yeah.

18 MR. WEINBERG: Gosh, Ken, I thought we had

19 asked Mr. Young for all the documents and you

20 said ?? and we gave him a subpoena and we got

21 squat, we got nothing, we got zero from

22 Mr. Young and Mrs. Young. So now you're going

23 to produce in redirect a document that I

24 didn't ask him about and you didn't ask him

25 about?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

746

1 MR. HERTZBERG: He may not if he doesn't

2 find it.

3 MR. DANDAR: I can't find what you're

4 talking about.

5 MR. WEINBERG: I'm encouraging you to go

6 on.

7 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.

8 A. It's a short typed letter.

9 Q. Is this it?

10 A. No.

11 Q. It's typed? I don't have it then. That's

12 the only one I have that's typed. I might have ??

13 MR. HERTZBERG: If any of those are

14 responsive to any of our discovery requests,

15 maybe you should share them with us.

16 MR. DANDAR: Well, I can tell you they

17 are not, so ??

18 MR. HERTZBERG: Okay. Because I see all

19 those documents there.

20 MR. WEINBERG: If you see any Friends of

21 the Animal things in there, could you give it

22 to us?

23 MR. DANDAR: No furry creatures.

24 MR. WEINBERG: What about Minton's stuff,

25 would you give that to us?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

747

1 MR. HANES: Ken, do you want to mark

2 everything that you're showing him as you go

3 through there?

4 MR. DANDAR: I don't understand that.

5 BY MR. DANDAR:

6 Q. Why were you given orders to disconnect

7 from Mr. Broeker?

8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

9 A. It was just part of my program to meet

10 certain requirements to graduate from the RPF.

11 Q. What was your understanding, if you didn't

12 write this letter, what the consequences would be?

13 MR. HANES: Object to the form.

14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

15 A. I wouldn't be able to get off the RPF.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg was asking you about

17 certain policy letters out of certain volumes of

18 either the Green Books or the Red Books. How many

19 volumes are in the Green Books, do you know?

20 A. There is one for each division. There's

21 eight.

22 Q. What about the Red Books?

23 A. Oh, I don't know how many volumes there

24 are on that last area, something like 13 volumes.

25 Q. Could you estimate how many pages are in

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

748

1 each volume?

2 A. Current volumes, there might be ?? there

3 is several hundred pages per volume.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Maybe 400 and some volumes, there might be

6 500 pages.

7 Q. Do you know when HASI, if I pronounced

8 that correctly, was terminated?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know what it is?

11 A. Hubbard Association of Scientologists

12 International.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg showed you some policies

14 about changing certain policies with blue pencil.

15 Do you remember that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can that be done after Mr. Hubbard was

18 dead?

19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form,

20 and objection; lack of foundation.

21 A. According to their policy that they

22 issued, it's not supposed to be.

23 Q. You also said on cross?examination that

24 some Scientologists believe that you should not

25 seek psychiatric help and some do. Can you explain

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

749

1 that answer?

2 A. I'm sorry. I'm a little tired. Can you

3 say that one again?

4 Q. You said on cross?examination that some

5 Scientologists believe that you should not seek

6 help from a psychiatrist and other Scientologists

7 do not have that prohibition. Can you explain

8 that?

9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form.

10 MR. TITUS: Yeah, object to the form.

11 A. It just ?? it was my experience just over

12 21 years that there were people who believed that

13 they could and would be all right to see anywhere

14 from a school psychologist on to some form of

15 therapist, and even though there was ?? they would

16 be admonished not to do it, they would do it

17 anyway.

18 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike;

19 lack of foundation, hearsay and speculation.

20 Q. You said on cross that you previously had

21 the task of reauthenticating the Red or Green

22 Volumes. Do you recall that?

23 MR. WEINBERG: I don't.

24 A. No, I didn't say authenticate the volume,

25 no.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

750

1 Q. What did you have to authenticate?

2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

3 A. I might have been referring to when I was

4 authenticating certain issues in a different

5 lawsuit where there was copies of policies and

6 bulletins that had been submitted. This was in the

7 FACT Net case, and so I was trying to determine if

8 they were accurate copies compared against the

9 original issues.

10 Q. Since leaving Scientology in 1989, why

11 have you agreed to testify or be a consultant on

12 issues involving Scientology?

13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

14 MR. POLLI: Object to the form.

15 A. Primarily because I was asked.

16 MR. DANDAR: That's all I have.

17 MR. WEINBERG: I've got some recross.

18 MR. DANDAR: I'll object to any recross.

19 I don't think it's permitted. We only went

20 over the things that you talked about.

21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't think that's

22 correct, but whether you think it's permitted

23 or not, I'm going to ask it and a judge can

24 determine because of the circumstances that

25 we're in right now.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

751

1 RECROSS?EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. WEINBERG:

3 Q. Now, Mr. Young, Mr. Dandar asked you on

4 redirect whether you had ever testified in one of

5 these Scientology cases and you said yes. Is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that was in a hearing in the FACT Net

9 case, is that right?

10 A. I cited two instances, one while I was in

11 the Scientology organization and one outside, and

12 the one you're referring to is in the FACT Net

13 case.

14 Q. What I'm asking you about is since you

15 left Scientology and have been a witness for hire,

16 okay, you have testified once in court, is that

17 correct?

18 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form;

19 argumentative.

20 Q. Is that correct?

21 A. No, it's not.

22 Q. You testified once in court?

23 A. I've never been a witness for hire.

24 Q. So you've never been paid for your

25 testimony?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

752

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now ?? but since you have been a witness

3 who has paid ?? well, strike that.

4 Since you left Scientology and have been

5 involved in all these cases, you've testified once

6 in court, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that was in the FACT Net case, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that was in a hearing in September

11 1995, correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in that hearing it was made clear by

14 your lawyer that you were called as a fact witness,

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Not as an expert witness, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar asked you about the cases

20 that you had worked in and been hired in. You're

21 not offended by the word hired, are you? You were

22 hired by various lawyers in various cases since you

23 left Scientology, correct?

24 A. I don't object to being hired as a

25 consultant, right.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

753

1 Q. You were hired, right?

2 A. Yes, I don't mind.

3 Q. And you were paid, right?

4 A. As a consultant, yes.

5 Q. Okay. Now, you named some cases that you

6 were involved in in which someone had sued

7 Scientology, right, or a Scientology organization,

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But you forgot that you were also hired in

11 the Prewitt case that had sued CSI, correct? You

12 did a declaration in that case, didn't you?

13 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember

14 that case.

15 Q. Do you remember the Geertz case that sued

16 CSI that you are hired in and did a declaration in?

17 A. That's what we usually refer to as the

18 Fishman case. That was what I was referring to

19 even though he was the primary defendant.

20 Q. Right. But Geertz actually sued CSI,

21 correct?

22 A. I don't know about that. I was ?? I was

23 in response to the one that he was the defendant.

24 I did not participate in any other actions that he

25 undertook.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

754

1 Q. So if there is a declaration out there

2 with your name on it in either the Prewitt case or

3 the Geertz case, you would just stand to be

4 corrected?

5 A. As far as, you know, I was never retained

6 to work on the Geertz case with him as a plaintiff.

7 Q. Now, the Kisser case, were you involved in

8 that case? You were, weren't you?

9 A. I'm trying to remember if that was one of

10 the CAN cases that Mr. Leipold had asked me to

11 assist on. There were so many CAN cases.

12 Q. Just to refresh your recollection, I'm

13 going to show you an affidavit that you executed on

14 March 17th, 1995, in the Prewitt case, which was a

15 case that was filed against the Church of

16 Scientology International in England. Do you

17 remember that you did an affidavit in a case in

18 England, a declaration?

19 A. There was one overseas one. I don't

20 remember the name.

21 Q. Let me show you this. That's your

22 affidavit, right?

23 MR. DANDAR: Can you mark that as an

24 exhibit?

25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going to mark it

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

755

1 as an exhibit. I'm just using it ??

2 MR. DANDAR: Well, don't look it if he's

3 not going to mark it as an exhibit.

4 MR. WEINBERG: What are you talking

5 about?

6 MR. DANDAR: No, no, no.

7 MR. WEINBERG: You know the rule of

8 evidence where you can ??

9 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.

10 MR. WEINBERG: Where he doesn't have a

11 recollection and I use it to refresh his

12 recollection?

13 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, and you mark it as an

14 exhibit.

15 MR. WEINBERG: No, you don't.

16 MR. DANDAR: Well, you're not going to

17 ask him anything about it if you're not going

18 to mark it.

19 BY MR. WEINBERG:

20 Q. Well, is your recollection refreshed that

21 you executed ??

22 MR. DANDAR: No, don't answer the

23 question.

24 A. I didn't have a chance, sir. I'm sorry.

25 I was interrupted.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

756

1 Q. Okay. Fine. The record is what it is.

2 MR. DANDAR: It's amazing you don't want

3 to mark it as an exhibit. You want to show a

4 witness and not mark it as an exhibit? Try to

5 do that at trial.

6 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike

7 the extraneous comments.

8 BY MR. WEINBERG:

9 Q. The affidavits you did involving cases in

10 which you were being paid regarding Scientology

11 date back to 1993, is that right?

12 A. That sounds accurate.

13 Q. Most of the work that you have done

14 regarding Scientology has been with a small group

15 of lawyers that are involved in litigation against

16 Scientology since 1993, correct?

17 A. No. They were lawyers defending suits by

18 Scientology.

19 Q. And suits against Scientology, correct?

20 A. Mostly the defense.

21 Q. Well, we ?? and it's a small group of

22 lawyers; Ford Greene, Graham Berry, Dan Leipold are

23 the main ones, correct?

24 A. And Faegre Benson and the one in the Sally

25 Jessy Raphael show and Cahill Gordon in New York.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

757

1 They are hardly a small group. They are a major

2 First Amendment firm.

3 Q. How much money did you receive for the

4 stories that you wrote for the Elks and Orange

5 Coast, the three stories that you keep mentioning?

6 A. Oh, I don't remember. It would just be a

7 few hundred dollars for those. Could I just take a

8 break, please?

9 Q. I'm really about done. Can we just ?? can

10 we finish?

11 Now, you've never seen a mission from RTC

12 that had anything other than RTC personnel in it,

13 have you?

14 A. I'm sorry. What was the question?

15 Q. You were asked questions about missions.

16 THE WITNESS: You know, Mr. Rinder, I'd

17 really appreciate you not laughing. I am sick

18 and, you know, I really find that rude.

19 Q. And I ?? you know, with all deference ??

20 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a break.

21 A. I am ?? I want to take a break.

22 Q. With all deference, I move to strike ??

23 A. I really need a break.

24 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, go ahead.

25 MR. WEINBERG: Take a break.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

758

1 THE WITNESS: You know, it's just

2 distracting.

3 MR. WEINBERG: I really don't have very

4 much left, so I'm trying to finish.

5 THE WITNESS: I know. I don't have much

6 left and I'm trying to finish too.

7 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. Take a break.

8 (Recess.)

9 BY MR. WEINBERG:

10 Q. I will repeat the question that I had

11 asked you when we took our break. You were asked

12 the question about missions, missions from RTC on

13 redirect. My question is you've never seen a

14 mission from RTC that had anything other than RTC

15 personnel in it, have you?

16 A. I don't know right now. I just have to

17 say I'm not familiar with ?? there seems to be one

18 but I can't remember right now. I'm sorry.

19 Q. Now, you were asked questions about the

20 Church of Scientology of California. You said

21 something about the Church of Scientology of

22 California being dominant. Do you remember saying

23 that?

24 A. I think so, yes.

25 Q. It was all over the world, wasn't it?

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

759

1 A. The Church of Scientology of California?

2 Q. Uh?huh.

3 A. No. It was just in Los Angeles.

4 Q. Weren't there all sorts of churches that

5 were part of the Church of Scientology of

6 California?

7 A. Oh, right, in that sense of the word, yes.

8 Q. And that included, that organization, that

9 included the Guardian's Office worldwide, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It included churches in California and in

12 other states around the country, didn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, you were asked questions about

15 command lines and said that there was no

16 interaction with ?? I think you said something

17 about no interaction with the corporate structure.

18 Do you remember being asked questions about that?

19 A. It was more I think in the case of

20 independent of rather than no interaction. That's

21 what I meant to say.

22 Q. But just so it's clear, all churches as of

23 now and as of when you left the Church of

24 Scientology in the late '80s, all churches are

25 junior to CSI, Church of Scientology International,

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

760

1 aren't they?

2 A. There is a couple I'm not sure of. I

3 think as you are intending the question, it's

4 probably true but I'm not sure of right now as far

5 as things like publications organization, but for

6 the purpose of your question of organizations that

7 deliver paid services, that would be true.

8 Q. Right. And all of those churches report

9 to CSI, which is, you've described, as the mother

10 church, right?

11 A. That's one of the things they report to.

12 They report to other echelons but they would report

13 to that as well.

14 Q. And they get orders from CSI, don't they?

15 A. Amongst other organizations, yes.

16 Q. And that is what a command line is, isn't

17 it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I'm just about done. You said that the

20 concept of religious practice is only used

21 externally. Do you remember that? You said it

22 with regard to dealing with government agencies?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But the fact of the matter is is that

25 we've established by going over the Phoenix

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

761

1 lectures and other lectures, like The Hope of Man,

2 that Mr. Hubbard was speaking internally to

3 Scientologists about the religious practices of

4 Scientology long before you joined the church in

5 1968, '69, correct?

6 A. The phrase was used in that.

7 Q. So the answer is yes, right?

8 A. Partially. I mean ?? I didn't deny the

9 use of the ?? I'm sorry. In the Phoenix lectures,

10 is what was I trying to say.

11 Q. I apologize. You said something ?? you

12 were asked the question about faith and you made

13 some statement about faith not being part of

14 Scientology, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You're not suggesting that that is a

17 criteria, that is faith is a criteria of what is or

18 is not a religion, you're not saying that, are you?

19 A. I would consider it to be.

20 Q. Well, do ?? what part does faith play in

21 Buddhism?

22 A. Nobody has seen the Buddha, nobody knows

23 about atman, et cetera, and you have the faith that

24 you can attain it, and there is the faith in the

25 reincarnation.

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

762

1 Q. It sounds pretty much like some of the

2 concepts that we had talked about the

3 Scientologists believe in, about the immortal

4 spirit, past lives, and those beliefs, doesn't it?

5 A. Except that faith is never used as the

6 criteria for that.

7 Q. So that's what disqualifies ?? well,

8 strike that.

9 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions.

10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's the end of the

11 deposition.

12 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Thank you.

13 Subject to what we said before.

14 MR. DANDAR: That's my end of the

15 deposition.

16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Thank you.

17 THEREUPON, the Trial Testimony was

18 concluded at 3:22 p.m.

19 NOTE: The original and one copy of the

20 foregoing Trial Testimony will be held by

21 Mr. Weinberg; copy to Mr. Dandar.

22 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing

23 of the Trial Testimony transcript will be handled

24 by the office of Mr. Kennan G. Dandar of the firm

25 Dandar & Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard,

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

763

1 Suite 201, Tampa, Florida.

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 764

1 SIGNATURE PAGE

2 Volume V

3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the

4 foregoing Trial Testimony given by me on

5 February 9 & 10, 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the

6 following corrections, if any, should be made in

7 the transcript:

8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18 Subject to the above corrections, if any,

19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing

20 Trial Testimony.

21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this

22 __________ day of ____________________ , 20___.

23

24 ________________________________

25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

765

1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH

2

3 STATE OF FLORIDA

4 COUNTY OF POLK

5

6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby

7 certify that the witness named herein personally

8 appeared before me and was previously duly sworn.

9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this

10 12th day of February, 2000.

11

12

13

14 ________________________________

15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR

16 Notary Public ? State of Florida

17 My Commission Expires: 10?23?03

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000

 

766

1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2 STATE OF FLORIDA

3 COUNTY OF POLK

4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered

5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter

6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida

7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared

8 before me for the taking of the foregoing Trial

9 Testimony, and that I was authorized to and did

10 stenographically and electronically report the

11 Trial Testimony; and that a review of the

12 transcript was requested; and that the transcript

13 is a true and complete record of my stenographic

14 notes and recordings thereof.

15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an

16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause,

17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party

18 connected with this litigation, nor am I

19 financially interested in the outcome of this

20 action.

21 DATED THIS 12th day of February, 2000, at

22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida.

23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 2?10?00

SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000