Lisa McPherson Files - Statement of Joan Stevens

This is the statement of Joan Stevens, who spent time with Lisa McPherson at the Fort Harrison.

                       KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320


 1         IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

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 3

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 5     _______________________________________________________________

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 7                    STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION

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                          RE:  LISA McPHERSON
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10     _______________________________________________________________

11

12          SWORN
            STATEMENT OF:       JOAN STEVENS.
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            TAKEN BY:           Mark McGarry,
14                              Assistant State Attorney.

15          DATE:               April 10, 1997.

16          BEFORE:             Lynne J. Ide, RPR, RMR
                                Notary Public,
17                              State of Florida at Large.

18          PLACE:              Office of State Attorney
                                Criminal Justice Center
19                              B200
                                Clearwater, Florida.
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                         KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
24                TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT (813)224-9500
                ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER (813) 821-3320
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2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE Assistant State Attorney 4 Attorney for State of Florida. 5 ALLAN "LEE" STROPE, 6 Special Agent, Florida Department of Law Enforcement 7 28870 U.S. Highway 19 North Suite 200 8 Clearwater, Florida 34621 9 JORGE CARRASQUILLO, 10 Detective, Clearwater Police Department 11 Clearwater, Florida. 12 ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE 13 Barnett Bank Plaza 101 East Kennedy Boulevard 14 Suite 3130 Tampa, Florida 33602 15 Counsel for the Witness. 16 ____________________________________ 17 18 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS 19 Examination by Mr. McGarry Page 3 20 Examination by Agent Strope Page 26 Examination by Detective Carrasquillo Page 37 21 Continued Examination by Agent Strope Page 51 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
3 1 (Witness sworn). 2 MR. McGARRY: Do you want to put something 3 on the record as you usually do? 4 MR. POLLI: Thanks very much. 5 We are here today pursuant to a State 6 Attorney Office investigation subpoena. 7 And I have discussed the protections that 8 are provided by Florida Statute 914.04 with Miss Stevens, 9 she understands what those protections are, and we are 10 here to proceed accordingly. 12 MR. McGARRY: Okay. 13 JOAN STEVENS, 14 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 15 and testified as follows: 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. McGARRY: 18 Q. May I call you Joan? My name is Mark McGarry. 19 I'm a prosecutor. 20 We are conducting an investigation into the 21 death of Lisa McPherson. Your name came up as a person 22 that might have some information relating to her last 23 seventeen days, I believe that was at the church. So 24 we're going to ask you some questions in reference to that 25 involvement. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821—3320
4 1 Before I do, I would like to get a little 2 background information on you. 3 Your birth date is? 4 A. June 11th, 1948. 5 Q. And where are you from originally? 6 A. Originally I was born in Virginia. 7 Q. Okay. And you reside now in Clearwater? 8 A. Yes, is that right. 9 Q. How long have you lived in Clearwater? 10 A. Since '93. 11 Q. Okay. And the reason -- did you come from 12 Virginia to Clearwater? 13 A. No, I have lived -— 14 Q. All over? 15 A. —— different places, yes. 16 Q. Okay. Why did you come to Clearwater in '93? 17 Was that because of the church? 18 A. I came to work here, yes. 19 Q. Were you affiliated with the church prior to 20 1993? 21 A. I have been a church staff member since '75. 22 Q. Since '75? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You are a long—timer. 25 A. Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
5 1 Q. That is like almost the very beginning, right? 2 A. No. It started in '68. 3 Q. '68? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. How did you become involved in the 6 church, if I may ask? 7 A. Well, I was working in New York. And a friend 8 of mine introduced me to Scientology. And I went down to 9 the organization, and I have been there ever since. 10 Q. Okay. When did you become a staff member? 11 A. Either '75 or '76. I came on staff in '75. And then I 12 joined the Sea Org. in '76. 13 Q. That is 0 R G, I believe? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. Did the church request you transfer to 16 Clearwater sometime before '93, or during the year of 17 1993? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. For what purpose was that? 20 A. Well, it is simply part of the Sea Org. Part of 21 the church I work for. Part of the agreement you make is 22 you work wherever you are needed to go, so... 23 Q. All right. What duties specifically in '93 were 24 you requested to do in Clearwater as a staff member? 25 A. I deal with personnel. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
6 1 Q. Okay. So you are upper level as far as moving 2 people around and personnel staff members, right? 3 A. Staff members, that is right. It is not 4 necessarily moving people around, it is making sure they 5 are trained for their job, yes. 6 Q. Who is your supervisor at the church now? 7 A. My boss, you mean? 8 Q. Yes, well, boss, supervisor, whatever you want 9 to call it. 10 A. Leslie Woodcraft. 11 Q. Leslie Woodcraft? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So over the years since 1975 have you taken 14 numerous courses at the church? 15 A. I have done several, yes. 16 Q. Have you achieved a certain level? 17 A. In training? Or processing? 18 Q. I'm not sure I know the difference, but you can 19 answer both if you would like. 20 A. It is different. Well, in training I have done, 21 you know, we have these large books, right. And I have 22 been through the full one for the division that I work in, 23 so I have that data, I am trained in that. 24 Q. Okay. How about as far as teaching, regular 25 teaching courses, have you progressed through certain KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
7 1 levels in that, as well? 2 A. I have trained for the jobs I have done. We 3 have courses for every job that a person has. And I have 4 trained on those. 5 Q. Okay. I'm not sure I ever got an answer as far 6 as your level of training, as far as courses you have 7 obtained. Is there a Level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, up to -- 8 A. Not exactly. There is training for executives 9 and that type of thing. I have Executive Status 1 and I'm 10 what is called, like you get to a level when you do these 11 volumes. 12 Q. Yes? 13 A. You reach a certain level that we call a staff 14 status. 15 Q. I got you. 16 A. And for me that is Staff Status 3. 17 Q. Okay. 18 AGENT STROPE: Excuse me, I think what you 19 are referring to —— he's referring to the bridge. 20 A. Training? Technical training? 21 AGENT STROPE: Yes, right. 22 A. No, I haven't done a lot of that at all. 23 AGENT STROPE: Thank you. 24 BY MR. McGARRY: 25 Q. Have your duties changed much from '93 until now KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
8 1 as far as with the church? 2 A. (Shakes head). 3 Q. The same stuff? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. POLLI: You have to answer yes. 6 A. Yes. 7 BY MR. McGARRY: 8 Q. All right, prior to Lisa being in the cabana in 9 November of '95, had you ever met her before? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You had not? When was the first time you have 12 ever heard her name? 13 A. Heard her name? 14 Q. Yes, when was the first time somebody said, hey, 15 Lisa McPherson? How did you become involved in this? 16 A. I think probably the first time I heard it was 17 the night I was with her. 18 Q. Okay. Somebody asked you to come see her? 19 A. Yes. My senior was with her and asked me if I 20 couldn't come and relieve my senior. 21 Q. Who is your senior? 22 A. Leslie Woodcraft. 23 Q. So Leslie Woodcraft was with Lisa? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. And she contacted you and asked if you could KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
9 1 come relieve —— 2 A. Basically take over for her. 3 Q. Okay. And that was the first contact you had 4 ever had with Lisa McPherson? 5 A. Yes, that is right. 6 Q. Now, I know you probably had an opportunity to 7 look as a calendar and discuss with your lawyer, have you 8 been able to figure out exactly what day that was in 9 November, or maybe it was even December, I don't know. 10 A. Not really. The closest I could get is I know 11 it was a holiday. I'm pretty sure it was Thanksgiving. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Because I know it wasn't Christmas. 14 Q. Right. So that is somewhere around the 23rd of 15 November? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And do you recall what time of day that was? 18 A. When I was called? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. It was actually quite late at night. I was 21 working late. 22 Q. Okay, you got a call from Miss Woodcraft, and 23 she said, "Can you come over and give us a hand?" 24 A. Yes, basically. As my boss, right. I wouldn't 25 have her, like, do that, I would do it for her so she KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
10 1 wouldn't have to be there. So she called me and asked me 2 if I could come over and relieve her, and I did. 3 Q. Okay. Did she tell you you are coming over to 4 do what? Did she tell you what the situation was? Did 5 she give you a synopsis of what was going on here? 6 What did you think you were coming to do? 7 A. Well, frankly, I wasn't quite sure because I had 8 no experience prior with this. Right? 9 Q. With what? I mean, that is what I want to know, 10 with what? 11 A. With actually the way it turned out that Lisa 12 was. I had like never experienced anything like that. 13 Leslie Woodcraft called me and she just asked me 14 if I could come over and relieve her, which I did. 15 Q. All right. The question I had, though, I think 16 I probably did not articulate it very well, is when you 17 had the conversation with Leslie, did she tell you —- what 18 did she tell you? "I am here doing ..." something? 19 I'm trying to get the information of what she 20 told you she was doing. Did you have any expectation of 21 what you were going into? What did she tell you this was? 22 A. What she told me——I knew that Lisa was, you 23 know, she was there, we were taking care of here, right. 24 Q. That is kind of what I'm getting at. 25 A. But when I saw Leslie, she basically told me KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
11 1 that Lisa was, you know, she wasn't, in so many words, 2 right. This isn't exact. That she wasn't like 3 particularly coherent. And that the best thing I could do 4 was just to like be there, you know, not get freaked out 5 by anything, just be there for Lisa. 6 Q. All right. So it was late at night that you 7 came over there? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And relieved her? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. And was Leslie there by herself? 12 A. She was there and Janice Johnson was there. 13 Q. Okay. And who is Janice Johnson? 14 A. Janice works with the church. 15 Q. Okay. In what capacity, as far as you know? 16 A. She works in our medical liaison office. 17 Q. Okay. When you came into the room, can you 18 describe the room for me? 19 A. Sure. Inside there was a bed, it was a double 20 bed just as you come in the door. Then there was a 21 dresser and a chair. And then in the left—hand corner was 22 kind of a potted plant. Then in the back was kind of a 23 dressing room, bathroom, closet. Then there was kind of 24 like a —— like windows, sliding doors. 25 Q. Did this room require a key to get into? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
12 1 A. No. 2 Q. It was unlocked? 3 A. (Shakes head). 4 Q. Was there anybody at the door? 5 A. There was Sam Ghiarna was outside the door. 6 Q. Who is Sam? 7 A. He works with the church. He's a staff member. 8 Q. What capacity does he work in? 9 A. He's right now posted in security. At that time 10 I don't know. 11 Q. So you just came, walked into the room? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. In the room there was Janice and Lisa? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. And Leslie? 16 A. Well, no, because I walked —— I was in a 17 different building, so I walked from the building I was in 18 to the Ft. Harrison, and Leslie met me in basically like a 19 little hallway in the Ft. Harrison building. 20 Q. Oh, okay. Where in the room was Lisa when you 21 entered the room, if you can remember? 22 A. I think she was -- I don't know, I think she was 23 like kind of in the middle of the room. 24 There was a chair -- you go in, there was a bed, 25 then a chair in the middle of the room. And I believe she KANABAY COURT REPORTERS — 813-821-3320
13 1 was like around the chair, or standing, walking. She was 2 active most of the time so it is kind of hard to pinpoint 3 exactly where she was. 4 Q. Did she acknowledge your entry? 5 A. Mmm, well, in a fashion. It wasn't like she 6 went like, "Hi, how are you." That wasn't the case at 7 all. 8 But I was wearing a jacket that had a blue 9 emblem on it. And she looked at it and she came up and 10 she touched it like that (indicating). She goes, "Oh, 11 that is beautiful." 12 I mean, if you call that an acknowledgment of my 13 presence, that is what she did. 14 Q. Did you and Janice Johnson have a conversation? 15 A. Conversation? I talked to her a bit. 16 Q. Okay. Did she tell you -- did she give you 17 update or status of what was occurring and what you were 18 expected to do? 19 A. Not exactly like that. You know, I came in, for 20 example, I heard water running, you know. And Janice 21 said, "Well, sometimes she likes to go in and run the 22 water. And we let her do that because it seems to calm 23 her down." 24 Or, you know, "We have given her camomile tea." 25 That is about it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
14 1 Q. But your understanding is you were there for her 2 assistance and comfort and care, correct? 3 A. (Nods head). 4 THE REPORTER: Your answer? 5 A. Yes. I'm sorry. 6 Q. And would those responsibilities cover, for 7 example, feeding her or giving her medicine? 8 A. Well, I would want to make sure she ate. 9 Medicine, no. 10 Q. While you were there did Dr. Johnson administer 11 any care that you observed? 12 A. Who? 13 Q. Dr. -- Janice Johnson? 14 A. No. 15 Q. So Janice Johnson was just there observing her 16 and looking after her? 17 A. In fact, she was there briefly, I mean, from the 18 time I got there. She didn't stay the whole time I was 19 there. She was there maybe, I don't know, max, half hour. 20 Q. So how long -- what would you describe this? 21 Some people have described it as a watch, or shift, or 22 this duty. How long were you there? 23 What would you describe this, as a watch? Or 24 shift? Or duty? Or something to that effect? 25 A. I don't know, for me personally the word that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
15 1 best describes it is watch, but that is only my -- 2 Q. That is all right. 3 How long was your watch? 4 A. It is really rather hard to judge. I know I 5 came in late at night, and I was there until in the 6 morning. And I think it was around until about ten or 7 eleven o'clock the next morning. 8 Q. So it would have been almost a full twelve 9 hours? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Can you describe what went on with Lisa for that 12 twelve—hour period? What did she do? 13 A. Well, what she did was talked and moved, and, I 14 mean, continuously, all of the time. There was like no 15 stop, do you know what I mean? It was just (gesturing). 16 And, you know, the things she was saying were like -- it 17 wasn't like a conversation or a lecture or, you know, or 18 anything, it was just talk. 19 Q. Was it your practice, as with some of the 20 others, to not have any direct communication with Lisa? 21 Were you instructed in that fashion? Or did you not pay 22 any attention to that? 23 A. No, I didn't have any communication with her. 24 Q. That is by design, correct? 25 A. Yeah. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
16 1 Q. At any time during this eleven or twelve hours 2 or thereabouts did she indicate that she wanted to leave 3 the cabana area of the hotel? 4 A. No. I mean, it is kind of -- when you say that, 5 nothing that she did made any sense particularly. Do you 6 know what I mean? 7 Q. Right, well, all I can do is ask a question. If 8 she said, "I would like to leave," you would remember 9 that, or if she tried to leave, you would remember that, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did she do any self-destructive behavior or any 13 violent behavior toward herself or you in your presence? 14 A. For me, yes. I was belted a couple of times. 15 More than -— I mean, several. She at one point came at 16 me, you know that potted plant I mentioned, she came at me 17 with that like (gesturing), you know. And she was -- 18 tried to poke my eye out, I wouldn't have it except I 19 turned my head. But I had got a nice shiner from that. 20 Q. How did you react to this? I mean, what was 21 your response? 22 A. Well, I didn't do anything, you know what I 23 mean? It was kind of like the girl was in the state she 24 was in, you know, and I'm sure, you know, did not know 25 what she was doing. And the most that I ever did was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821—3320
17 1 deflect, you know. 2 Q. Did you ever call Sam to give you a hand? 3 A. I did that, yes. Yeah. 4 Q. Okay. Did he come in and assist you? 5 A. No, he didn't come in. 6 Q. So what would be the purpose of calling him? 7 A. Well, because there was one point where she was 8 —— you know how I mentioned there were like glass doors, 9 and there was one point where she stripped and was 10 standing in front of the window, you know, pulled the 11 curtain open and was standing there. Then she was like —— 12 I had to close the curtain and get her away from the 13 window. 14 Q. Right. 15 A. And then I was standing by the door and she was 16 like about trying -- trying to go out, do you know? And 17 it was no state for her to go out in. And I asked Sam to 18 help me keep her in at that point. 19 Q. Okay. So he didn't come in, or he did come in? 20 A. Well, as far as the need to come to the door, 21 but that is not like in the room. 22 Q. Okay. Did she ever sleep while on your watch? 23 A. No. No. We tried. Early on, Janice and I 24 actually tried to —- like I think it was Janice, at one 25 point I think we had her in bed for about three minutes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
18 1 Q. Okay. Did she ingest any food or fluids while 2 you were there? 3 A. Well, you know, about seven o'clock in the 4 morning or so I realized she hadn't eaten. And I called 5 to have somebody bring some food over for her. 6 And I had like I think we got pancakes or 7 something that would be simple to eat. But when she 8 started to eat it, it was like she grabbed it and was 9 stuffing the whole thing down her throat. It was scary. 10 It wasn't like she was eating like a normal person. 11 Q. Yes? 12 A. And I had to take the -- well, I took the 13 plastic fork and spoon and that type of thing away from 14 her because it just appeared she was -- had the capacity 15 to do something destructive to herself. 16 Q. All right. 17 A. And some of the pancakes she ate. But the way 18 she was actually eating it, it was scary. It was like 19 she could like choke herself with it. So she had a bit, 20 then I took it away because I didn't know what to do at 21 that point, you know. 22 Q. Okay. At some point the following day were you 23 -— was your watch relieved by somebody else? 24 A. Mmm, it was —- I was relieved. Actually, let's 25 see, Heather Hof came, Rita Boykin came. Yeah, I mean, I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
19 1 was relieved. I mean actually toward the end of the time 2 I was there she was more active and I called for 3 assistance. Then at that point, you know, I left because 4 I was actually pretty wiped out -- 5 Q. Yes? 6 A. -— then. 7 Q. Was that your only day on this watch? 8 A. That is right. 9 Q. There apparently was a system in place for 10 taking notes or making reports about shifts. Did you 11 write a report on this? 12 A. I don't know of any system. I personally 13 originated a report that I sent to her folder, her 14 confessional folder. 15 Q. Oh, you did? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that was your observations of that night? 18 A. That is right. 19 Q. Okay. Have you seen that since you wrote it? 20 A. No. I wouldn't expect to see it since I sent it 21 to, you know, her confessional folder. 22 MR. McGARRY: Do we have one of those, Lee? 23 AGENT STROPE: I don't. 24 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: Would you look 25 through these reports and see if any of those might be the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
20 1 one you are speaking of? 2 BY MR. McGARRY: 3 Q. Yes, see if they're in there. 4 A. No, it isn't. 5 Q. Okay. In the event that -- do you have any 6 problem with us looking and reading that report in the 7 event we obtain it? 8 A. Well, it is in a confessional folder. It is 9 priest penitent data. 10 Q. So your report went through another channel? 11 Because we received a bunch of reports from a lot of the 12 other caregivers? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And theirs went through apparently another 15 channel than yours. Do you know why yours went to a 16 different area? 17 A. Because that is where I sent it. There was no 18 system set up at the time I did it, but I'll be glad to 19 tell you anything in there. 20 Q. Oh -- 21 A. No problem. 22 Q. But, you know why as investigators we like to 23 have the reports, because obviously it contained 24 information that is more timely. It is obviously about 25 events transpiring now. And obviously now we are going KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
21 1 back and using your memory a year and a half later. 2 A. You are right, of course. 3 Q. Is there anything in those reports you can 4 recall that I could ask you that would be helpful to our 5 investigation? 6 A. I don't think so. I think the main thing I 7 communicated in there and had my personal attention on was 8 just that she needed help, do you know? I have never 9 personally seen anyone in that condition before in my 10 life. 11 Q. And-- 12 A. You know, I mean, it was -- 13 Q. You are referring to her mental state? 14 A. Mental, yeah. I mean, just like she just didn't 15 stop talking. And it was nothing that really made any 16 sense particularly, you know, just like for hours and 17 hours and hours. 18 Then, you know, things she would do, like go in 19 and turn on the water and listen to it run, or throw 20 clothes in the toilet or in the sink, or whatever she was 21 doing, you know, it was just kind of -- 22 Q. Did you notice any physical aspects to her 23 condition that you thought needed attention, other than 24 her mental state? 25 A. No, not particularly, other than probably about KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
22 1 —- when I requested assistance, because she was actually 2 like stronger than me and becoming more than I could 3 handle because she was quite active. Do you know how 4 somebody looks after they have like run a mile, you know, 5 they are like flushed. Like that. 6 Q. Uh-huh. 7 A. Probably around between ten and twelve the next 8 morning I would say she had that kind of flushed look, but 9 she had also been like active all night long. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. But that was the only thing. And she was also 12 at that point -- she was like hot. 13 Q. Were you aware that she was there for I guess 14 the term is isolation, and then if that went well, then a 15 procedure would be implemented called introspective 16 rundown, were you aware that was going to take place? 17 A. I knew we wanted to get her in session. 18 Q. Is that what that is called, session? 19 A. Yes, it is. 20 Q. Never got there because of her mental status, 21 correct? 22 A. I don't really know why. 23 Q. Okay. Well, if this is the only day you were 24 there, then -- well, let me ask you this. Did you have 25 any further contact with Lisa after that particular date KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
23 1 you are talking about, presumably Thanksgiving day? 2 A. No, I didn't. 3 Q. There was a meeting that was later held at the 4 church after Lisa died, I believe it was called by either 5 Alain Kartuzinski, or might have been one of the head 6 security guys, Kellerhous or Baxter. 7 Did you attend such a meeting? 8 A. I'm not exactly clear on what you are referring 9 to. 10 Q. Well, there was a gathering of people that were 11 in contact with Lisa presumably to tell them that she had 12 died and that they may be at risk for some reason or 13 another for an infectious disease. And many people have 14 described this meeting and indicated that they wrote a 15 report at such meeting. And I was wondering if you were 16 invited. 17 A. I went to a briefing. It wasn't —- there was 18 nothing mentioned to me about any infectious diseases. I 19 wrote a separate report. 20 Q. For that? 21 A. Yes. Because that was —- that was the night I 22 believe she passed away, right? 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Or something like that. 25 Q. That would have been December 5th. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
24 1 A. Mmm, I don't know. 2 Q. Okay. Well, if I told you that was the day she 3 died, then that would have been it. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. And that report was to Mr. Kartuzinski, right? 6 A. No, I wrote it to Marcus Quirino. 7 Q. Yes, Marcus Quirino. I knew that. 8 Do you recall if Mr. Kartuzinski was at that 9 meeting? 10 A. I don't know because actually it wasn't like we 11 were all gathered around the table. It wasn't that type 12 of thing. I was asked to come up there, and I saw 13 Mr. Quirino and a couple of other people. It wasn't like 14 a gathering. 15 Q. And Mr. Quirino's position in the church is 16 what? 17 A. Right now? He's what we call a director of 18 processing. 19 Q. And then? 20 A. He was, Mmm, a deputy executive. 21 Q. Okay. Is he still with the church now? I 22 assume he is. 23 A. Oh, yes. Yes. 24 Q. During your period there with Lisa did you 25 notice that she had any visitors either from her family or KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
25 1 anybody else from the church that came to visit her that 2 you ever mentioned aside from Janice and Leslie, and I 3 think you mentioned Heather and Rita, anybody else that 4 you noticed that had contact with Lisa during that 5 twelve-hour period? 6 A. You mean other than staff members that were with 7 her? 8 Q. Right. 9 A. That I know about? 10 Q. Other than the ones you just mentioned. 11 A. I mean, there were other staff members that came 12 like later on, like Paul Kellerhous, but no one outside 13 the church I know of. 14 Q. Okay. Are you aware of Lisa going home to get 15 some clothing? I know she went -- at least I think she 16 did, somebody had to go get some additional clothing from 17 the clothing she had from the day of this accident that 18 precipitated this cabana stay. Do you know anybody who 19 did that, accompanied her home to get her clothes or her 20 personal effects? 21 A. I know nothing about that. 22 Q. Okay. Is there anything else that you can 23 recall about this twelve—hour period or this —— around 24 this period of time that I have neglected to ask you that 25 you might find important or relevant toward this KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
26 1 investigation? 2 A. I don't think so, Mr. McGarry. 3 MR. McGARRY: Okay, would you afford the 4 same courtesy to these detectives. They might have some 5 questions to ask you that I forgot. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course. 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY AGENT STROPE: 9 Q. Do you have any medical training? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. None whatsoever? 12 A. Uh-uh. 13 Q. So you don't know why you were picked for this 14 duty? 15 A. I was picked because I'm a staff member. And we 16 felt our responsibility to help this person. 17 Q. Okay, but you have no medical training? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. Now, you said to Mr. McGarry that you had no 20 experience dealing with people the way that Lisa was. 21 Could you explain that for me more? 22 A. Lisa —— well, yes, I mean, I don't know what 23 else to say other than I have never met a person that was 24 in that condition before or come across it. I don't know 25 if you have or —— do you know what I mean? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
27 1 But the only way I can describe her is she 2 wasn't there, she was just talking, talking, talking, 3 talking, talking, talking; moving, moving, moving, moving, 4 moving. There was like giving herself —- there was no 5 direction to what she was doing, no sense to it. 6 Q. So in your twenty-one years with this 7 organization, have you ever before been involved in a 8 watch? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Have you been involved since? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So this is the first incident of this kind you 13 have been involved in? 14 A. That is right. 15 Q. Who was in charge of this watch, do you know? 16 Who was the person making schedules or doing whatever had 17 to be done to make sure the job would get done? 18 A. I am really not sure. I have no idea. 19 Q. Are you familiar with Janice Johnson? 20 A. I know her. 21 Q. Are you a friend of Janice Johnson? 22 A. Friend? I know her as a staff member. 23 Q. Do you know Janice Johnson as a medical doctor, 24 as a doctor? 25 A. No. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
28 1 Q. You described the bed, the room. Could you do 2 that, describe that again for me? Was it like a hotel 3 room? 4 A. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. 5 Q. Was there a telephone? 6 A. Mmm, I don't remember. 7 Q. Was there a double bed? 8 A. There was. 9 Q. One double bed? 10 A. I -- well, you know, I know -- what I recall 11 when I came in, I know there was one, you know. There was 12 the door, and I have a later recollection of, toward the 13 end when I left, the bed was in a different location. So 14 I tend to want to think we moved it, rather than there 15 were two. I think there was only one but I think it got 16 moved. 17 Q. So it was a double bed? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. I mean, you were to spend the night there, 20 right? Did you spend that night that you were there, 21 whether it be Thanksgiving or whatever, by yourself? 22 A. Mmm, Janice Johnson was there for a bit. And 23 then she left shortly after I got there. For several 24 hours I was alone. And then toward the morning there were 25 people that came in. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS — 813-821—3320
29 1 Q. Who would those people be? 2 A. At first when Lisa was getting more active I 3 asked for assistance and there were two maids, hotel 4 maids, that were there. And they basically came in and 5 were there for a bit. Then Barbro came. 6 Q. Do you know the maids' names? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You say she got more active. Was there a time 9 when she was sleeping? 10 A. There was never a time when she was sleeping. 11 Q. She was just more active than other times? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Was there a time when she would sit on the bed, 14 lay on the bed? 15 A. Mmm, no. I mean, she wouldn't —— there was no 16 time when —— as I said, maybe once we got her to lie down 17 for about three minutes and that was it. There was a 18 chair she would sit in, sometimes she would sit in that 19 chair. But —- 20 Q. Do you remember the number of this room, what 21 room that was? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 Q. Describe to me how you get there. 24 A. Because I know generally where it is, and there 25 is, Mmm, when you come through the Ft. Harrison, there is KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
30 1 a breezeway, right, and like it is where the poolside 2 cabana is. And that is where I met Leslie Woodcraft and 3 she took me to the room. 4 Q. Which way did you go to the room? 5 A. I came past -- well, past the poolside cabana, 6 down the little way, then turned, well, turned that way, 7 (indicating). 8 Q. Turned right? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Now, Sam Ghiarna was outside the room? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Yes? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Was he dressed in a security type uniform? 15 A. Oh, I don't know. I don't remember. 16 Q. You don't remember that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You say you had to call him into the room one 19 time? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. What was that for? 22 A. That was shortly after Lisa had stood in the 23 windows naked and then was just trying to leave. And as I 24 recall, she was about half dressed at the time. And she 25 was—— KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
31 1 Q. So she was standing in the window naked, she 2 tried to leave and she was half dressed? 3 A. Yeah, half or full, I don't really recall except 4 I know I had my attention to that fact. 5 Q. Well, she was either naked or she was half 6 dressed. 7 A. Yes, you are right. Like either I got some 8 jeans on her or something, but she was like -— in any 9 case, she wasn't presentable is the main point. 10 Q. Did you call Sam to help you with her and not 11 allow her to leave? 12 A. I asked him to help me, yes. 13 Q. Did you feel at this time that Lisa needed any 14 medical attention, not psychiatric but medical attention? 15 A. I had no indications that she needed medical 16 attention. 17 Q. And you were struck by her several times, you 18 said? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Were you by yourself when that happened? 21 A. Yes, several times. 22 Q. There was no one in the room with you when that 23 happened? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you call for help when that happened? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
32 1 A. No. It wasn't like -- I would have called for 2 help if she had like grabbed my throat or something like 3 that. She didn't do that. But she did like take a 4 wallop, boom (indicating). 5 Q. But you could —- Sam was outside the door, 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you ever have to subdue her, either alone or 9 with someone else? Other people have told us they have 10 had to. 11 A. Well, at one point she went into the bathroom. 12 And she would go in and out of the bathroom. And, Mmm, I 13 heard something break in there. And I was very concerned 14 that she would like cut herself, hurt herself. 15 And I went and took her out of the bathroom. 16 forced her out because there was like broken plastic or 17 something on the floor, and she wasn't in any condition 18 where she would see it. She could have stepped on it, she 19 could have jabbed it -- I don't know. 20 Q. So it was broken plastic on the floor? 21 A. Plastic or glass. There were things around. 22 Q. So did you get that cleaned up? 23 A. Yeah. Yup. 24 Q. Have you gone over your testimony today here 25 with anyone other than your attorney? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS — 813—821—3320
33 1 A. No. 2 Q. Is the term "priest penitent privilege" 3 something used often? 4 A. No, that is only because I'm usually with staff 5 who have the same idea and concept so it doesn't come up. 6 Do you know what I mean? 7 Q. So you haven't discussed your testimony with 8 anybody other than your attorney? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Have you gone over your reports before today? 11 A. What reports? 12 Q. The reports you wrote? You said you wrote a 13 report concerning your Thanksgiving day watch with Lisa. 14 Did you go over that report for today's testimony? 15 A. I sent that to the PC folder the day I did the 16 watch. 17 Q. But you haven't seen it since? 18 A. No, I haven't. 19 Q. Was there a reason that you sent your report to 20 that file and everyone else sent their reports to Alain 21 Kartuzinski? 22 A. I have no idea. 23 Q. Did anybody tell you to write a report about 24 this? 25 A. No. It just seemed like the right thing to do. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS — 813—821—3320
34 1 Q. Did Lisa ever tell you, "I want to leave, I'm 2 out of here, I'm leaving"? 3 A. She never said anything coherent. That would 4 have been coherent. 5 Q. What if she would have said, "I'm out of here, 6 bye, I'm leaving"? 7 A. I don't know. It is -- I -- I have no way to -- 8 Q. Would you have let her go? 9 A. Let her go? I have no idea what I would have 10 done. She wasn't —— the state she was in, it would have 11 been dangerous for her to go out. 12 Q. Did anybody tell you not to let her go out? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You said Mr. Kellerhous came there. What was 15 his duty there? 16 A. He came because around the time he came Lisa was 17 getting far more active than I was able to handle, far 18 more. And it was getting to the point being dangerous for 19 her. 20 For example, you know, as I said, she would 21 leave the water running, right? And we had tile floors in 22 there, and water had like gone all over the tiles, and she 23 came running out and slipped. And, you know, it was just 24 like I could not handle that. 25 And at one point she jumped on the bed, she KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
35 1 cracked the -- 2 Q. So why -- why -- 3 A. So I asked Paul Kellerhous to help me because I 4 could not. 5 And by the time he came in, you know, she was 6 like —— I mean, he helped, he did help, definitely, subdue 7 her, because I could not. 8 Q. Tell me what he did. 9 A. Mmm, well, he came in. She was -- the first 10 thing that happened, he went over, she had like actually 11 grabbed a pen out of his shirt pocket and was going to go 12 to stab him with it. He deflected that like put his arms 13 around her. 14 Then he put her down on the bed. Right? Held 15 her down. She was close to the -- at that point was close 16 enough to the wall that she was actually banging her head 17 against the wall. So we moved the bed back so she 18 wouldn't hurt herself, right. 19 Q. How long was she subdued there before she calmed 20 down? 21 A. I don't know when she did calm down, sir. I 22 have no idea. I know that —— 23 Q. Well, how long did Mr. Kellerhous hold her down? 24 A. He was there -- it is really rather vague. I 25 don't recall exactly. I would say an estimate, about KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
36 1 forty-five minutes to an hour. 2 Q. So he held her down for forty—five minutes to an 3 hour before she calmed down? Did you help him do that? 4 A. There were three of us. 5 Q. Who is the third person? 6 A. What occurred, I called for Paul Kellerhous. He 7 came in and he helped like put her down in the bed. 8 Right? 9 Then Barbro was there, she had come in about 10 seven o'clock with me. And then a little bit later but 11 while Paul was there and Barbro, Heather Hof came in and 12 also Rita Boykin. Not all those people were all holding 13 her at once. And also there was another, umm, Alphonso 14 Barcenas. 15 Q. So everyone was there? 16 A. Everyone was there. And at the point when Lisa 17 was most active and we had to like hold her down on the 18 bed literally, Paul was, umm, —— at first it was Paul, and 19 he held her down, and Alphonso had her feet because she 20 was kicking madly. Right? 21 Then it kind of phased over to, umm, Barbro and 22 Paul, then Heather and Barbro, then me, Heather and 23 Barbro, then Rita came in. So kind of like in that short 24 time sequence it is those kinds of shifts, because I was 25 actually trying to get out. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
37 1 Q. When you said she took her clothes off and stood 2 in front of the window you called Sam, why didn't you call 3 Sam this time? Why did you call Mr. Kellerhous? 4 A. Mmm, no real reason other than I have known Paul 5 for like many years and -— and I just know him. 6 Q. Is Kellerhous Sam's senior? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. So you called him instead of Sam? 9 A. Yes. Not necessarily because he was senior. 10 Q. How did you call him? 11 A. I asked Sam to please get him. 12 AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything else. 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: 15 Q. I have a couple questions. 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. At the beginning of the deposition you stated 18 that the first time you heard or met Lisa was the 23rd, 19 which you believe was Thanksgiving, it was a holiday, is 20 that correct? 21 A. Yes. I mean, other than I may have heard her 22 name at graduation or something. 23 Q. Then later on you stated you knew she was there. 24 When you were asked more questions you said "I knew Lisa 25 was there." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
38 1 How did you know that if the first time you 2 heard her or met her was on the 23rd of November, how did 3 you know Lisa was already there? 4 A. Umm, it is not uncommon to know if staff have to 5 do a watch. It is not necessarily that you know exactly 6 who it is. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. You just know it is occurring because staff 9 members are asked to do it. 10 Q. When did you find out that Lisa was there then, 11 if you knew it prior to the 23rd, what day was that? 12 A. I don't know, sir. 13 Q. A week before? 14 A. I have no clue. It is something that, you know, 15 you know it is occurring because I -- I deal with staff 16 members, and if staff members have to go off and help 17 somebody in a case like this I recognize it because 18 they're not there. That is how I would know. Do you 19 understand what I mean? 20 Q. But you would know who the person was in the 21 case? 22 A. Not necessarily. 23 Q. Okay, so you said your job is staff personnel? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Expound on that a little bit. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
39 1 A. Okay. So I'm responsible for making sure that 2 new staff, when they come in, they get like basic 3 training, organizational training, they get put on correct 4 posts, something like personnel director, basically, all 5 right? Then they get trained for the job they are on. 6 Q. So if they were assigned a watch, you would make 7 sure they got to that watch? 8 A. No, that is not necessarily my job. 9 Q. Okay. How many more times did you see 10 Dr. Johnson that night? 11 A. Janice? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Just that once. 14 Q. And she never came back? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You only did it for one day? 17 A. That is right. 18 Q. Okay. And you said Sam was outside the door but 19 you don't recall what uniform he had on or if any uniform? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Okay. How did you call Sam? 22 A. How did I call him? 23 Q. Well, I want to make sure I picture this 24 correctly. You got Lisa taking swings at you, she struck 25 you a couple of times, she tried to hit you with a potted KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
40 1 plant, and you are calling that active. I would call that 2 violent. Was she violent? 3 A. If you want to call it that, that is fine. 4 Q. Well, let's look at her actions. Were her 5 actions violent? 6 A. To me violent is something different. To me 7 violent is coming at me with a knife. Hitting me, it is 8 -- that is the way she was. 9 Q. So she hit you? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. She tried to hit you with a potted plant and she 12 struck you several times? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Was she being violent? 15 A. When you say that, it -- it denotes a concept of 16 her being that way on a continuous basis, which wasn't the 17 case. 18 Q. For the time she was doing it? 19 A. For the time she was doing it, I guess you could 20 call it violent. 21 Q. Is that when you called Sam, when she was acting 22 like that? 23 A. When I was concerned that it would start to get 24 worse, yes. 25 Q. How did you call him? Did you scream? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
41 1 A. No, I opened the door and I said, "Can you help 2 me?" It wasn't —— you know, it wasn't like "Hey!" 3 Q. So you were able to break away from Lisa, come 4 over to the door, open the door and call Sam, and she 5 stayed where she was at? 6 A. Umm, I don't recall that. She was moving 7 around. She was constantly moving. 8 Q. Okay, Sam comes into the room, and I want to 9 make sure I'm picturing this correctly. You are telling 10 me she's out of it, being irrational, swinging, she's just 11 acting really bizarre, correct? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Sam comes into the room, doesn't say a word and 14 she immediately calms down, is that what happened? 15 A. No, not at all. 16 Q. What happened? 17 A. What happened, the time when Sam came in, it was 18 actually like this. She was -- actually, she was near the 19 door. All right? 20 Q. All right. 21 A. Because she had been standing in that window, 22 that large window that faces out onto the sidewalk, right. 23 And I was standing near the door. So it was like this, 24 like here is the door (gesturing), here are the windows, 25 here is the bed. Lisa was standing here. I was standing KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
42 1 by this door, and Sam was out here. 2 So he was like right there, right? So it wasn't 3 like I had to go, "Sam!" What he did basically is helped 4 me move her body back into the room. 5 Q. Well, if I remember correctly you said he didn't 6 come into the room, he just opened the door and stood by 7 the door and looked in. 8 A. I didn't say that. 9 Q. No? 10 A. No. He -- when I called for help and she was 11 going out, right -- 12 Q. She was going out the door? 13 A. Yeah. It was like she reached for the door 14 knob, right? And I was like at that point a bit freaked 15 out, right? So I did ask Sam for help. 16 Q. And he stopped her from going out the door? 17 A. Yeah, he put her back in. 18 Q. Did Sam stop her from going out the door? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. So you and Sam did not allow her to go 21 out the door, yes, or no? 22 A. In that state, we did not allow her to go out, 23 right. 24 Q. You mentioned earlier when you were talking to 25 Agent Strope that she was partly dressed and that she KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
43 1 wanted to leave, is that correct? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 THE REPORTER: Your answer? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did she tell you she wanted to leave? 6 A. She never —— no, it was never like she, you 7 know, she goes, "I want out of here, let me leave." It 8 was just total like impulse after impulse after impulse. 9 Q. Well, how did you know she wanted to leave? 10 A. She grabbed the door knob. 11 Q. So by her actions, sometimes the actions speak 12 louder than words? 13 A. That is right. 14 Q. So by her actions it told you that she wanted to 15 leave? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Did she get dressed herself, or did you dress 18 her? 19 A. Umm, I am thinking, because there were more than 20 one time when she took off her clothes. 21 Q. We are talking about this time when she wanted 22 to leave out the front door. Did she dress herself, or 23 did you dress her? 24 A. I am not totally certain on that. As I recall, 25 I believe that she had put on blue jeans, but that is all. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
44 1 Q. Well, it would make sense if she wanted to leave 2 she would get dressed. 3 A. Well, she would have put on a shirt, too. 4 Q. Did she have an opportunity to put on a shirt? 5 A. She had plenty of clothes in there. 6 Q. Did she have an opportunity to put on a top, a 7 shirt, or did you stop her from putting on a top or shirt? 8 A. Certainly not. She put on her blue jeans. 9 Q. But you did stop her from going out the door? 10 A. Yeah, she was half naked. 11 Q. Okay, if you had a problem with Lisa, who would 12 you call? 13 A. I don't really know. That was why I asked for 14 Paul. 15 Q. Now, when Mrs. —— Janice, I call her 16 Dr. Johnson, when she briefed you, she did brief you a 17 little at the onset when you took over the watch? 18 A. Briefed me? Yeah, that they gave her camomile 19 tea and—- 20 Q. Did she tell you, "If there is a problem I want 21 you to call me," or, "I want you to call Paul," who did 22 she tell you to call if there was a problem? 23 A. That didn't come up. 24 Q. There was no ground rule laid down if you were 25 having a problem to contact somebody, a problem you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
45 1 couldn't handle, to contact somebody? 2 A. Didn't come up at all. 3 Q. Was Lisa screaming? Was she screaming at the 4 top of her lungs? 5 A. No. 6 Q. When they were trying to subdue her, was she 7 screaming? 8 A. She was I could say —- maybe she was —— well, I 9 don't —— no, not screaming, she was never like screaming. 10 She just talked. 11 Q. Well, let's just picture you for a second. You 12 have five people trying to hold you down, wouldn't you say 13 "Get off me," or at least make that being vocally known? 14 And she was being vocal? 15 A. Totally, didn't stop talking. 16 Q. So her voice didn't escalate when they were 17 trying to hold her down? 18 A. Well, it is not that it was ever calm, do you 19 know what I mean? It was —— 20 Q. Was it loud? 21 A. Yeah, but that wasn't different from the way it 22 was before. She may have gotten a bit louder or 23 something, you know, but it wasn't —— it was tense the 24 whole time. 25 Q. Was her voice loud enough to be heard outside KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
46 1 the room by Sam? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Do you think it could have carried through? 4 A. I have no idea. 5 Q. Was it that loud? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. You said you wrote a report and sent it to the 8 confessional folder, and I know Lee touched on this a 9 little bit, but that report was dealing strictly with her 10 behavior that night and her activities? 11 A. Um-huh. 12 Q. Why her confessional folder? 13 A. Well, it seemed to me that is the place it ought 14 to go. 15 Q. Okay, why? Explain to me why. Why would you -- 16 what would they do with it there? What would be the next 17 step? 18 A. Well, if it had been planned -— we had been 19 trying to get her in session, then that data would be 20 needed. 21 Q. Then why didn't all of the other reports go 22 there if the idea was to help her down the road? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Never asked? 25 A. No. I mean, I did that off my own volition and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
47 1 that is where it should go. No one told me to write a 2 report, or if I did, where to send it. 3 Q. Okay. You said that when you saw Lisa, it kind 4 of surprised you because you had never seen anybody like 5 that, is that correct? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. They need you to answer out loud. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you said she needed help, in your 10 estimation? 11 A. That is right. 12 Q. What kind of help? 13 A. She at least -- I have really no clue. I'm not 14 trained in handling somebody like that particularly. I 15 have never come across it so it would be hard for me to 16 say what kind of help she needed. I know minimally just 17 as a person she should have somebody with her. 18 Q. Okay. You said, and I'm only asking you to 19 explain your adjectives to me, okay? You said in your 20 opinion she needed help? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. In your opinion, what kind of help did she need? 23 A. Help in the sense that -- well, I don't know, 24 what is the definition of help, you know? When somebody 25 is stressed, even if you have somebody there with you, it KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
48 1 is helpful. 2 Q. So -- 3 A. That is what I mean. 4 Q. Did she need more help than she was getting? 5 A. I have no clue. 6 Q. It is your statement, I'm just trying to find 7 out, did she need more help than was there at that time, 8 in your opinion? Because you are the one that said, "Boy, 9 I looked at her and she needed help." More than was there 10 at the time? 11 A. I actually don't have any way to judge that. I 12 don't know. 13 Q. Then why would you make that statement? 14 A. Because from my —— my own statement what I mean 15 by help is that at least to be there for her. 16 Q. Well, she was receiving that? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. You were there for her? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. Janice was there for her? 21 Why would you still say she needed help, 22 although she was receiving what you said she should get? 23 A. Because she —— she obviously wasn't there as a 24 person. That was why I would say she needed help. Anyone 25 who has, you know, got themselves into the position where KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
49 1 they were in the state that she was needed some kind of 2 assistance. 3 Q. Okay. And physically how was she? 4 A. How do you mean? 5 Q. How did she look to you physically? 6 A. Physically, she looked healthy. 7 Q. Did she have any bruises on her? 8 A. No. 9 Q. She was smacking her head against the wall, she 10 hit you. You said she slipped on the floor? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And not a bruise? 13 A. Now, wait a minute, because I am under the 14 impression you are asking me when I first came in. 15 Q. I'm asking you physically -- 16 A. Through the whole thing? 17 Q. At any time what was her physical condition 18 like? 19 A. Well, active. Totally active all of the time. 20 Q. Any bruises on her body? 21 A. Mmm, bruises? I don't know. She fell and 22 slipped and hit her head on the floor and she may have 23 gotten some kind of bruise from that, but that would be my 24 assumption. 25 Q. How did she hit you? Describe that to me, the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS — 813—821—3320
50 1 actual strike. How did you get hit? What did she hit you 2 with and how, with what? 3 A. In the face. 4 Q. With what? 5 A. Her hand. 6 Q. Closed? Or open? 7 A. No, wide open, full force. 8 Q. One time? Two times? Three times? 9 A. No, more like, I don't know, six to eight. 10 Q. She slapped you six to eight times in the face 11 and you never called Sam for help? 12 A. It happened once, I mean, you know, in the unit 13 of time she would do it and then stop and go on to 14 something else, so it wasn't six or eight in succession, 15 do you see what I mean? It wasn't like she had me in a 16 corner and was beating me up. 17 It would come in the middle, she would be 18 talking, talking, all of a sudden boom, then talk, talk, 19 talk, talk, talk. 20 Q. What did she say when she slapped you? "I want 21 out of here"? "I'm pissed off at you"? "I hate you, you 22 make me sick"? Anything like that? 23 A. No, it was just part of the continuous whatever 24 it was that she was talking. You know, it was just words, 25 words, words, then it would calm —— KANABAY COURT REPORTERS — 813—821—3320
51 1 Q. But you don't remember none of the words? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Couldn't even begin to tell me words? 4 A. Well, one phrase that came up that she said a 5 lot is "I'm having a bad hair day." 6 Q. She's having a bad hair day? 7 A. Yeah. 8 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: I don't have any 9 more questions. 10 AGENT STROPE: Just one. 11 CONTINUED EXAMINATION 12 BY AGENT STROPE: 13 Q. What do you think, personally think, should have 14 been done differently here? 15 A. I have no clue. 16 Q. Do you have any idea? 17 A. No clue. No idea whatsoever. 18 Q. And you haven't talked your testimony over here 19 today with anyone other than your attorney? 20 A. No, I haven't. 21 Q. Until today, back to the day you wrote the 22 report for Mr. Quirino, you haven't discussed this case 23 with anybody? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you discussed Lisa with anybody? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS — 813—821—3320
52 1 A. Umm, no. 2 Q. So nobody has discussed Lisa with you since she 3 passed away? 4 A. I am thinking. No. I think I might have 5 probably asked once or twice how she was doing after —— 6 like days later. But -- 7 Q. But after she died you haven't talked about her 8 since then with anybody? 9 A. Umm, not —— I don't recall having done that. 10 Q. Has your attorney discussed with you the meaning 11 of the word "perjury" and its consequences? 12 A. I know what it is. 13 AGENT STROPE: Okay, I don't have anything 14 further. 15 MR. McGARRY: All right. Thank you. 16 ____________________________________________ 17 WHEREUPON, THE STATEMENT WAS CONCLUDED 18 _____________________________________________ 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
53 1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 2 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 4 I, the undersigned authority, certify that JOAN STEVENS personally appeared before me and was duly sworn. 5 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 10th day 6 of April, 1997. 7 8 (signature) LYNNE J. IDE, RPR, RMR 9 Notary Public - State of Florida. 10 LYNNE J.IDE COMMISSION # CC 467604 11 EXPIRES JUN 14,1999 BONDED THRU ATLANTIC BONDING CO. INC. 12 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 13 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 15 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Professional Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 16 stenographically report the statement of JOAN STEVENS; and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my 17 stenographic notes. 18 I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor 19 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 20 financially interested in the action. 21 DATED this 10th day of April, 1997. 22 (signature) 23 LYNNE J. IDE RPR, RMR. 24 25