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Q How long does it usually take to get like the serologic tests back or the slides and things like that?

A It would depend. On the slides, if we just do regular stains, I'd say maybe a week, ten days.

There's a degree of variability because we are secondary to their hospital work load.

In other words, their in-house stuff that they've got to do, they'll do and that work load will vary, so that sometimes we can get them in two, three days; sometimes, it could be two weeks.

Serologic tests vary, also -- boy, I don't know. You know, in the majority of cases, I don't get all this stuff. I mean, there's no need for me to consider these when I look at the differentials, so I don't get these and I don't exactly have in my mind exactly how long it takes.

Q Could there have been a delay in getting back the results of the vitreous fluid because of the Christmas holidays, New year's holidays, things like that?

A Anything's possible.

Q Okay. did you look for or try to test for the presence of Thorazine?

A We have a thing called a toxicology report, toxicology screen, and as a phenothiazine derivative, or i believe in that subgroup, that should have shown up on the toxicology report.

Q What did show up on the toxicology?

A Let me look here.

Benadryl in the urine and nothing in the blood.

Q Is there any explanation for Benadryl in the urine?

A I'd have to be a specialist on the metabolism of Benadryl. Benadryl is a -- frequently is an anti-allergic; anti -- anti-allergic kind of medication, predominantly, but I don't -- I don't know any particular reason why it would -- you know, why it would be there.

Q Okay. Do you know that, in sufficient quantities, Benadryl can help someone sleep?

A Yeah, if -- if you're -- as a function of why you're staying awake, you know.

The thing that's important here, when I look at this, is that you've got drug quantitation values --

Q Right.

A -- and you've got nothing under there in terms of the -- see, in terms of the blood.

Now if it's -- if it's not in the blood, it isn't going to be functioning within the body, if you see what I mean.

Q Okay.

A It's sort of like the bladder is outside -- I mean, it's inside the body, but it's sort of outside the body; it's a container there sitting there just holding this stuff.

Q All right. Does your Protocol test for things like chlorhydrate?

A Boy, I think you'd have to ask -- you'd have to ask the toxicologist.

Q Okay.

MS. CARLUCCI: Ken, give me a second.

(Brief recess)

MR. DANDAR: All right. back on the record.


Q Now, while you were at the medical examiner's office, until you left in May of '96, did you have access to any records kept by the Church of Scientology that concerned the care and treatment of Lisa McPherson before she went to the Columbia New Port Richey Hospital?

A I didn't -- you know, the file on Lisa McPherson was there -- okay? -and the file presumably contains everything that's present in a particular case. In other words, we make a file, you know, when we start off.

Q Right, but I'm not talking about the records that your office generates. I'm talking about did you ever become aware that there were records kept by the Church of Scientology from the moment of her -- left -- the moment she left Morton Plant Hospital until the moment she arrived at the Columbia New Port Richey Hospital about seventeen to eighteen days later.

A No, I didn't.

Q Did you ever hear anyone talk about it?

A I think there was concern that -- not concern expressed by me, because I was busy doing all kinds of cases and I had other cases and so on and so forth, but I think that there was some concern about the fact that such records were not -- we hadn't seen any records.

Q Okay. Now isn't it true that a person who has a thromboembolus in the left main pulmonary artery does not necessarily die from that --

A That's right.

Q -- because the other lung is just fine.

A Well, if the other lung is just fine. I mean -- but there can be a number of reasons why they might not die, yes.

It's not obligatory that you're going to die because you've got an embolus to your lung, unless it's a saddle embolus.

Q On the Final Anatomical Diagnoses prepared by Dr. Wood -

A Yeah.

Q -- do you disagree with any of those diagnoses?

MS. CARLUCCI: If you have an opinion.

Q If you have an opinion.

A I didn't sign this report. I don't have an opinion.

Q Okay. If we change the word "severe" to "significant" dehydration, would that change your no-opinion status?

MS. CARLUCCI: If you have an opinion, Doctor.

THE WITNESS: Boy, you know --

MR. DANDAR: Let me rephrase it.

THE WITNESS: Those words are -- the other thing, too, on your previous question --


Q Which one?

A About these final -- I wouldn't have included "abrasion of the nose." I mean, to me, that really doesn't add anything.

Q Well, could that abrasion of the nose and the bloody chin be evidence that she was struck by something or someone?

MS. CARLUCCI: Doctor --

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

MS. CARLUCCI: -- do not speculate.

THE WITNESS: I don't know. It could be -


Q Assuming that the vitreous fluid readings are correct as well as you diagnosis of the Hippocratic facies, would Lisa McPherson be in a physical condition prior to her death to have been banging on the walls?

MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form of the question.

MS. CARLUCCI: If you know.


Q Say within forty-eight hours of arriving at the Columbia New Port Richey Hospital.

MS. CARLUCCI: And if it's within your area of expertise.

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I -- I get uncomfortable with regard to time frames. MR. DANDAR: Okay.

THE WITNESS: -- and I just --

MR. DANDAR: Okay, that's fine. All right.


Q You were asked on direct examination if the abrasions, contusions, hematomas, hemorrhaging that you noted in your record and as shown to you on these photographs were consistent with someone -- with Lisa McPherson flailing her arms and legs, hitting the walls, et cetera, and you said, yes, it could be.

My question is, could it also be consistent with someone striking her?

A It's possible. You know --

MS. CARLUCCI: You answered.



Q Do you know who the investigators were, in this case, that you reviewed their records and dictated the case history?

A I had the -- I had the -- I'm sure the information -- I feel badly that I don't recall the initials "DLC", number one; number two, the last note that is here is on the 6th and I think it's -- I think it's quite reasonable to think that there -- there were further notes, so I -- you know, I wish I could tell you. On the "DLC", you may have to -- well, anyway, that's it.

Q Okay. All right.

On page ten of your records that you've provided, page ten being the fax page number, you wrote out on the margin, "What about dead on arrival at Morton Plant" --

A Yeah, someplace in her - yeah, well --

MS. CARLUCCI: Doctor, there's no question pending. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.


Q My question is, why did you write that?

A Well, I'm, not quite sure -- I'm not quite sure of the time of death and my knowledge from where -- you know, I mean, I was in that area and I don't have a direct street knowledge -- in other words, I didn't really have anything -- in other words, I didn't really have anything -- I know roughly where the scientologists place is, I know roughly where Morton Plant is and I know roughly where New Port Richey is, and I -- and I guess I wrote that as a question, you know, what was the status, you know, of this individual during the time of the ride.

Q Why did you write in "Morton Plant"?

A Well, because that's a fairly large hospital; it's close to the scientology area.

Q So did you write that down because it didn't make sense to you why they would go all the way out to New Port Richey when Morton Plant is a few blocks away?

MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.

THE WITNESS: It crossed my mind. I don't know MR. DANDAR: Okay.


Q I apologize if I asked you this before, but when you observed the body of Lisa McPherson, did she look septic?

MR. WEINBERG: You already asked that, Ken.

THE WITNESS: I don't know how you could tell if a person's septic or not.

MR. DANDAR: Can you tell if a person who is alive is septic as opposed to one who's dead?

A By virtue of symptoms and various different laboratory studies that we have, yes.

Q Okay. Did you -- do you have a specific recollection that you requested the New Port Richey Hospital records?

A I personally did?

Q Right.

A No, I believe that I questioned and asked someone to follow up and get us those records if we could.

Q Would there be --

A And when i say "someone", I mean one of our investigators.

Q Okay.

A I don't recall, you know, perhaps which one. I just -- I just didn't recall having seen them, which didn't mean that they weren't there; it just meant I didn't see them.

Q Well, I'll have that marked as an exhibit, but here are the New Port Richey Hospital records --

A Oh, all right.

Q -- and I was just curious, maybe by looking at them, you can remember if you've seen them before. --

MR. WEINBERG: Why don't you mark them?

MR. DANDAR: That's fine. Go ahead.

MS. CARLUCCI: There's no question.

MR. WEINBERG: I mean, this is what you say are the New Port Richey Hospital -- I mean, you're not asking him to identify these, since he never saw them; right?

MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm just asking to see if maybe he has seen them. I just want to see if he recollects them or not.

MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we just put an exhibit tag on those?

MR. DANDAR: Sure, go ahead. Put it on there, Plaintiff's One. MR. WEINBERG: Okay.

(WHEREUPON the aforementioned document was received and marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit One)

MS. CARLUCCI: And you'll recall, the question simply is whether or not you recognize those or have seen them before.

MR. DANDAR: The first four pages, you can skip; that's a subpoena. There you go.

MR. WEINBERG: Is the question whether he saw these or not? Is that the question?

MR. DANDAR: That's the question pending.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall having seen these. BY MR. DANDAR:

Q Okay.

A I do recall this lab stuff.

Q And how do you recall that? I mean --

MR. WEINBERG: Wait, just so the record's clear, you're pointing to a blood culture, lab report --

THE WITNESS: A report.

MR. WEINBERG: -- on the -- on the -- is this on the Staph aureus; is that what you're talking about?

THE WITNESS: Well, of course, maybe I was a little premature.

MS. CARLUCCI: Ken, may I just ask you to clarify your question. Is this whether or not Dr. Davis saw these documents prior to complete -- his leaving --

MR. DANDAR: Right.

MS. CARLUCCI: -- service at District Six?

THE WITNESS: I don't recall having seen the entire chart, no. BY MR. DANDAR:

Q Okay. Do you recall the blood work -- I mean, the blood culture work prior to leaving District Six?

A I don't recall that, either. I do recall -- I do recall that that stuff -- as I remember, the stuff came to me over here with Minkoff's stuff.

Q The fax?

A This --

Q Yeah, was that part of the big fax that came in? A Yeah. Yeah.

Q All right. Is the blood culture lab report at New Port Richey significant to you as a medical examiner in this case?

MS. CARLUCCI: Now, Doctor --


MS. CARLUCCI: -- I'm going to caution you -THE WITNESS: Yes.

MS. CARLUCCI: -- regarding giving any opinions on those medical records you've just been handed for two reasons; one, you have not had a chance to scrutinize them; two, you do not have any knowledge as to what transpired after you left the medical examiner's office and whether there's other peripheral information that may interact or contradict or in any way influence your reading of those medical records, so I caution you to speculate in any way.

MR. WEINBERG: And before you answer, if -- Ken, if you could like identify what -- in that package, what lab report you're asking him him is of any significance to him, because, I mean, it's a big package.

MR. DANDAR: Well, I believe there's only one or two pages -THE WITNESS: There's three pages.

MR. WEINBERG: Three pages of it --


THE WITNESS: Two -- a preliminary culture, a final culture and then there's a sensitivity page.


MR. WEINBERG: Is that what you're asking him? All three of those?

MR. DANDAR: Right, all three.

THE WITNESS: Okay, I don't recall seeing any sensitivities. That's your page three of this.


THE WITNESS: Relative to the others, I believe what I saw was the one that gave Staph aureus as what finally grew out.


Q And does that have any significance to you as a medical examiner? MS. CARLUCCI: This is in retrospect


Q In retrospect.

A Okay. I don't know that I can necessarily answer that for the reasons that were given before, or the statements from Ms. Carlucci, plus the fact that there is a -- I'm not sure of -- in my own mind of the life status of this individual at the time that the blood was drawn. I'm not --

Q What does that mean?

A Well, I'm not sure if this was the -- if the individual necessarily was -- let me glance at this again.

I'm just -- in reading that report --

Q The first page of the ER?

A Yeah. I'm just -- I'm not sure what her status was on arrival at the hospital.

Q Is that because there's significant information missing from that report?

MS. CARLUCCI: Again, Doctor, I'm going to instruct you to be careful not

to speculate.


MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form, as well.

THE WITNESS: There's a point insofar as I have not thoroughly reviewed

this whole thing.


Q So you can't --

A Understand what I'm saying?

Q You can't answer the question because you haven't reviewed the whole thing?

MS. CARLUCCI: Well, and Doctor, do you know whether anything is missing

from that record?



Q As a medical examiner, in order to determine the time of death, would

you like to know the temperature of the victim upon arrival at the hospital?

A As I said, time of death is difficult. The temperature can represent one parameter and it would be taken into consideration, but I think -- at least

I -- I don't come down to a point of minutes in terms of times of death.

MS. CARLUCCI: Is the temperature significant?

THE WITNESS: -- unless, say, there's an observed homicide; I shoot him or something.

MS. CARLUCCI: Doctor, the question was, would the time -- the temperature

at the time of death, or prior to the time of death, be significant, yes or no.

THE WITNESS: Could be.


Q Okay. What about blood gasses?

A Could be.

Q What about electrolytes?

A Again, they could be.

Q Are these --

MR. DANDAR: All right, let's go ahead and switch tapes.

(Brief recess)

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