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VOLUME X TRIAL
TRANSCRIPTS, 2-19-01
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR
PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08
:
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE :
ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida :
corporation, :
:
Petitioner, :
:
vs. :
:
ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL., :
:
Respondents. :
----------------------------------------x
BEFORE: The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.
PLACE: Pinellas County Judicial Building
545 First Avenue North
St. Petersburg, Florida
DATE: February 19, 2001
TIME: Commencing at 9:00 A.M.
REPORTED BY: JACKIE L. OSTROM
Court Reporter
---------------------------------------------------
ORDERS TO SHOW CASE
--------------------------------------------------
Pages 1182 -1265
Volume X
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
P.O. BOX 35
CLEARWATER, FLORIDA
(727) 443-0992
.
APPEARANCES
The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.
CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE
F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE
JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE ET AL
911 Chestnut
Clearwater, Florida
HELENA KOBRIN, ESQUIRE
MOXON AND KOBRIN
3055 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 900
Los Angeles, California 90010
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship
Organization
JOHN MERRETT, ESQUIRE
2716 Herschel Street
Jacksonville, Florida 32205
BRUCE G. HOWIE, ESQUIRE
PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE AND WERNER
5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida 33707
Attorneys for Robert Minton and
Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc.
. 1184
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE COURT: There is a transcript here.
3 I'm going to mark it filed, stamp it filed,
4 and that's been filed.
5 All right. We ready to proceed?
6 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. At this time I
7 would ask to publish the videotape of
8 Mr. Henson's second conference with the
9 police.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Henson?
11 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
12 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pope.
13 MR. POPE: We have no objection to the
14 publication of that particular videotape.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Well, pull the
16 equipment and get set up and we'll do that.
17 And, okay, I'll step down and are there any
18 words?
19 MR. MERRETT: Yes, but I don't know that
20 they're audible.
21 THE COURT: Does she need to be taking
22 it down?
23 MR. MERRETT: I don't think so.
24 THE COURT: Okay. I'll swing around out
25 there.
. 1185
1 (Whereupon, the videotape was played to the
2 court.)
3 MR. MERRETT: Yes. That's all of that
4 tape, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: All right. Just a minute.
6 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
7 place.)
8 All right. You going to play another
9 tape?
10 MR. MERRETT: I'm not, no, Your Honor.
11 MR. POPE: I would like to make one
12 observation about that tape. At the
13 beginning of it, it shows Mrs. Bezazian was
14 part of the group who was listening to the
15 presentation by the officer.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Hold on just a
17 minute.
18 All right. You going to put that in
19 evidence?
20 MR. MERRETT: Yes, Your Honor, with
21 leave of the court.
22 THE COURT: Please. I think that's your
23 number 11, if I'm not mistaken.
24 (Defendant LMT's Exhibit Number 13 was
25 admitted into evidence.)
. 1186
1 MS. KOBRIN: Your Honor, my notes show
2 that you have marked through number 12.
3 THE COURT: So, it's number 12?
4 MS. KOBRIN: No, 13.
5 THE COURT: Good. Let me make that 13.
6 Thank you. Okay. next?
7 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I believe we
8 had actually rested and took that out of
9 turn.
10 THE COURT: Okay. I didn't know if you
11 wanted anything else.
12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, where we left
13 off was I had put Mark Bunker on the stand
14 and completed my examination of him and we
15 want to proceed by calling Robert Minton.
16 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I
17 think there was some videos out there that
18 Mr. Pope was going to have an opportunity to
19 look at over the weekend and whether those
20 videos were -- he reserved his right to
21 cross-examine and do what he wanted to do
22 about those videos.
23 Now, are you going to be calling those
24 videos later through Mr. Minton or?
25 MR. HOWIE: Part of the purpose of
. 1187
1 Mr. Minton's direct examination would be to
2 establish the relevance of this one video and
3 I understand that Mr. Pope has already viewed
4 the video and the other video, the second
5 video is this here, however I wish to
6 establish relevance of this video through
7 Mr. Minton's testimony.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. POPE: I have looked at the video
10 and we'll object to it when it's offered, but
11 if he wants to proceed in that fashion,
12 that's fine.
13 THE COURT: Okay. You going to call
14 Mr. Minton?
15 MR. HOWIE: Yes, sir.
16 Thereupon:
17 ROBERT MINTON
18 was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, was
19 examined and testified as follows:
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. HOWIE:
22 Q Mr. Minton, please state your full name?
23 A Robert S. Minton; M-I-N-T-O-N.
24 Q What is your address, please?
25 A 137 Fremont Road, Sam Down, New Hampshire.
. 1188
1 Q Is it correct that you are a member of the
2 critical movement against the Church of Scientology?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And is there any question that you're an
5 outspoken opponent of the Church of Scientology Flag
6 Service Organization and its affiliated corporations
7 and organizations?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q How did you get involved in this issue?
10 A Very much like the testimony we've heard
11 here from Keith Henson and Grady Ward being, you know,
12 internet activists who were outraged by Scientology's
13 attack on free speech by means of Helena Kobrin
14 attempting to remove the discussion group from the
15 internet where critics of Scientology gathered to
16 discuss their experiences while they were in the
17 Church.
18 Q How long ago was that?
19 A That was at the beginning of 1995.
20 Q Okay. What is your connection or
21 relationship to the Lisa McPherson Trust?
22 A I am the Chairman of the Board. I was the
23 original incorporator of the company and continue in a
24 capacity as Chairman of the Board, but not a
25 stockholder in the company.
. 1189
1 Q Why did you establish the Lisa McPherson
2 Trust to begin with?
3 A Well, the Church of Scientology had
4 basically destroyed all previous opposition that
5 existed to Scientology in the anti-cult area, namely
6 the Cult Awareness Network which was a national
7 network that opposed not only Scientology but many
8 other cults. And through a bizarre series of events
9 that the Church of Scientology now owns the Cult
10 Awareness Network and answers the phone as the Cult
11 Awareness Network offering help to people who
12 supposedly are having trouble with cults.
13 Q Now, you've heard I belive from Ms. Brooks'
14 testimony and the testimony and evidence we have heard
15 here concerning the actual purpose of the Lisa
16 McPherson Trust. In your own words what is that
17 purpose?
18 A Well, the generalities of it are to expose
19 the abuse on deceptive practices of the Church of
20 Scientology. Ms. Brooks hit several of the
21 highlights, but she forgot a few important ones, I
22 believe.
23 The main important one being to help the
24 victims of Scientology recover from the abusive
25 experiences they had while within the Church and this
. 1190
1 is a very long and complicated process to help
2 someone, for example, like Tory he Bezazian who was
3 for 30 years in this organization and basically, you
4 know, just dumped out in an unceremonious wheelbarrow
5 in the streets.
6 The other key component is helping people
7 get their money back from the Church of Scientology.
8 You know, this is people who wish to get back in the
9 millions of dollars or the hundreds of thousands of
10 dollars or $50,000, whatever the case may be.
11 We work with them to get that money back so
12 that they can help rebuild their life because
13 typically they have given all their money to the
14 Church by the time the Church is finished with them.
15 Q Now, there have been several questions about
16 you giving money to other parties in the case. Why
17 have you funded the critics of the Church of
18 Scientology?
19 A Well, many of the critics we're talking
20 about are people who had been in Scientology. They
21 got out and basically had no money.
22 They were fighting initially in the court
23 system to try to get some redress against what
24 happened to them in Scientology. Some of them became
25 subjects of the Scientology Fair Game policies and
. 1191
1 were sued by the Church.
2 You know, we heard in the case of Mr. Lerma.
3 He was sued by the Church. He had a couple years
4 worth of the litigation going on. And it's like, you
5 know, being here in Judge Penick's courtroom for the
6 last seven days.
7 There is not a whole lot you can do with the
8 rest of your life when you're in court all the time,
9 and many of these people were operating on a pro se
10 basis. You know, they were trying to run their own
11 cases because they just didn't have any money and I
12 was trying to help level the playing field a little
13 bit between the litigation machine of Scientology and
14 these people trying to exercise some basic rights
15 under the constitution here.
16 Q Now, the Lisa McPherson Trust is located at
17 the 33 North Ft. Harrison. Why did you rent that
18 particular building for this purpose?
19 A Well, first of all, I bought the building,
20 not rented.
21 Q Correct, purchased it.
22 A Our intention was not to -- well, first our
23 intention was to be close to Scientology in downtown
24 Clearwater. And by close, I mean, there four or five
25 office buildings in downtown Clearwater which we
. 1192
1 wanted to be in and we concluded arrangements in all
2 four or five of those office buildings to rent space.
3 In every single instance the Church of
4 Scientology came in within 20 minutes of 30 minutes of
5 us leaving and sat down with they called DA packs to
6 the agent or owners of the buildings and explained
7 that, you know that, Minton --
8 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor.
9 Objection. We're getting into hearsay here.
10 He hasn't established that he has personal
11 knowledge of these events at all.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Howie?
13 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, this is not
14 being submitted to prove the truth of the
15 matter asserted, but rather what obstacles or
16 frustrations Mr. Minton had in attempting to
17 acquire property for this purpose in downtown
18 Clearwater.
19 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the obstacles
20 Mr. Minton may have had to acquire property
21 in downtown Clearwater do not in any way have
22 any probative value on the issue of whether
23 he or any of the other defendants are
24 violating the court's order.
25 We're getting back into the Scientology
. 1193
1 is bad guys approach to this instead of
2 sticking to what's really at stake here.
3 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, in order to
4 establish bias or prejudice on the part of
5 the other witnesses, particularly Heather
6 Brooks, Mr. Pope emphatically cross-examined
7 on the issue of why are you so close to the
8 Church of Scientology. This in part is to
9 remedy that effort.
10 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed.
11 BY MR. HOWIE:
12 Q Go ahead, and without actually entering into
13 the conversations you had, what was the result of your
14 efforts to buy this property? The other property, not
15 33 North Ft. Harrison?
16 A Well, we found that despite being eminently
17 qualified financially to lease these office buildings
18 that there were other extraneous matters that were
19 brought to the attention of the property owners
20 concerning bigoted and hateful activities of the
21 people associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust that
22 were brought to the attention of the property owners.
23 Q As result you did not acquire this property?
24 A As a result of that we were unable to
25 complete any arrangements to lease office space in any
. 1194
1 of the buildings in downtown Clearwater and so we
2 began to look for a place to buy as the only logical
3 alternative if we wanted to be in downtown Clearwater.
4 The first building that we went into was a
5 Calvary owned baptist church. Building during the
6 time we were being shown around that building, three
7 Scientologists came in and started yelling at the man
8 that was showing us around that Minton is a criminal,
9 Brooks is a criminal, Prince is a criminal. You
10 shouldn't have anything to do with these people,
11 they're terrible people.
12 The second building we looked at was sort of
13 catty-corner across the street and that was the
14 33 North Ft. Harrison building. The time when we were
15 initially being shown the building by the owner, Scott
16 Brower, in the first room that we went into seven
17 Scientologists came in the door shouting the same
18 things, led by Ian Shillington, who was the man
19 shouting Nazi, go home to Ursula Caberta, and again
20 they were trying to persuade Mr. Brower to have
21 nothing to do with us because we were terrible people,
22 but in a cause we concluded a transaction with
23 Mr. Brower, a perfectly acceptable transaction, and
24 then the day of or the day before the closing or a
25 couple days before the closing Mr. Shaw had been over
. 1195
1 to see Mr. Brower a number of times and there were
2 attempts made to offer twice as much as we were paying
3 for the building if they would not sell to us, if he
4 would not sell it, but he had made a contract and he
5 stuck to it and I was very please and proud to have
6 done a business transaction with such a distinguished
7 man.
8 Q Now, I note that obviously we've noticed
9 that people on your side of the courtroom have been
10 wearing white roses. Why are you wearing a white
11 rose?
12 A Well, in Nazi Germany there was a small
13 group of students called the White Rose Society who
14 stood up to Hitler in a way which no one else in
15 Germany was doing and a public and very vocal way and
16 unfortunately all of the students in this movement
17 were killed by the Nazis, but it's in memory of that
18 group in our own fight against a totalitarian
19 institution similar to the Nazis that we wear these.
20 Q Now, you have indicated already that you're
21 an outspoken opponent of Church of Scientology. Have
22 you received any affirmative recognition or awards for
23 your opposition to the Church of Scientology?
24 A Yes. Yesterday, I think it was, there was a
25 lot of discussion about Europe and Scientology's
. 1196
1 involvement there. In June of 2000 I was given what's
2 called the Alternative Charlemagne Award by a group
3 calling itself the European American Citizens
4 Commission on Human Rights and Religious Freedom and
5 the purpose of that award was to recognize, you know,
6 my stand for human rights and religious freedom in the
7 word, particularly in the arena of organizations
8 opposed by Scientology who are deprived of their own
9 religious freedom.
10 Q New, we saw a videotape earlier in this
11 hearing of the arrival of Ursula Caberta at the Tampa
12 airport and the Church of Scientology reaction to it.
13 What was incident all about?
14 A Well, the key thing that Scientology has
15 been very concerned about other than our mere presence
16 in Clearwater, is that we have established very strong
17 ties to not only to the European anti-cult community,
18 but particularly strong ties to the governments in
19 Germany and France concerning our fights against the
20 Scientology abuses and deceptions.
21 Mrs. Caberta, while being merely the head of
22 the State of Hamburg's task force on Scientology,
23 because of its importance at first as a state and
24 because of the important work that that task force
25 does, many of the other states within Germany followed
. 1197
1 the lead of the Hamburg government working office on
2 Scientology and therefore Scientology views most of
3 their problems in Germany as a direct result of
4 Mrs. Caberta's very good work as far as she is
5 concerned, as far as I'm concerned and as far as the
6 German government is concerned. Finding ways to keep
7 Scientology technology out of the business community
8 in the way that it has been done in a very deceptive
9 manner.
10 Q Now, I want to review the remaining
11 allegations in the order to show cause with you and I
12 want to do that in chronological order. I want to
13 start out the so-called spy camera incident on
14 December 4 of 2000, which appears in the order to show
15 cause dated January 4, 2001 at Paragraphs 3A and 3B.
16 Now, just by way of introduction, the
17 allegations against you is that on December 4, 2000,
18 first John Merrett and then you climbed the ladder,
19 that you grabbed and twisted the spy camera and you
20 took photographs of it, that a police officer warned
21 both you to stop doing what you were doing to leave
22 and that you blocked a bread delivery at an entrance
23 to the Clearwater Bank Building.
24 Now, you have seen the videotape of that
25 incident, have you not?
. 1198
1 A Yes, I have.
2 Q Now, before climbing the ladder to
3 photograph the camera, before you and Mr. Merrett
4 climbed the ladder to investigate the camera, what
5 were your own observations concerning the camera and
6 the surrounding area of the wall of the camera, your
7 own observations?
8 A You mean just as to the location of the
9 camera.
10 Q Location of the camera and anything that was
11 pertinent to the camera, what were your basic
12 observations to the camera and the immediate area?
13 A Well, in the immediate area there was
14 nothing happening. You know, other than people
15 standing on the sidewalk ready to have a look at this
16 camera which was at the time we started to look at it,
17 it was sitting up against the Motomco Building, also
18 known as the rat bait building, you know, but with a
19 conduit, metal conduit going along the side of the
20 Motomco or rat bait building and then attached
21 permanently to the Scientology building, but what was
22 also clear is that where the conduit coming out of the
23 junction box went to a, you know, like a circular
24 thing that I guess is used to adjust or move that
25 camera and the part of the conduit, the U-shaped kind
. 1199
1 of conduit coming into it so it could move and when
2 Mr. Merrett first went up there, when he first went up
3 the ladder, you know, to take a picture or several
4 pictures, he, you know, put his hands to the bottom of
5 this cameras and moved it.
6 You know, this was a one handed job. He
7 could have done it with one finger. There was
8 nothing -- there was no rigidity whatsoever in the
9 movement of that camera.
10 Q Did you notice anything hanging off or
11 attached to this junction box apart from the conduit?
12 A A wire going down into the joint phone box.
13 Q And who first brought this junction box to
14 your attention?
15 A It was John Merrett. I've known about the
16 junction box for some time, the camera up there.
17 Q Who first advised you that there was a
18 camera there?
19 A I think it was Grady Ward, sometime
20 previously.
21 Q Now, the videotape shows you photographing
22 the spy camera. What was your purpose in doing that?
23 A Well, John said Stacy wanted some pictures
24 to put in an order to show cause and you know wanted
25 them to present in this particular case.
. 1200
1 Q All right. And why did you and Mr. Merrett
2 feel it was necessary do use a ladder to do this?
3 A Well, you know, it's just -- we were using
4 an Olympus D600 digital camera which has a very, very
5 minor zoom capability.
6 From the ground you couldn't get a good
7 picture of the junction box with the two cameras
8 contained inside. So it was necessary to get up to it
9 so you actually take a straight on picture to see what
10 it was.
11 Q Okay. Now, the videotape shows Mr. Merrett
12 going up the ladder before you did. In your
13 observations that day what did you see Mr. Merrett do
14 before you climbed the ladder?
15 A He moved the camera and proceeded to take a
16 picture and failed at taking a picture and, you know,
17 I said I know how to use the camera. You know, I'll
18 come up and do it.
19 The problem was that he wasn't familiar with
20 the macro mode on the camera and as we were close to
21 the camera it wouldn't, the focus would not lock in
22 unless we shifted it into macro mode.
23 I knew how to do that so I said I'll go up
24 the ladder and take the pictures.
25 Q Now, you described how Mr. Merrett moved the
. 1201
1 junction box that contained the camera. Did he appear
2 to have any trouble or resistance in pivoting the
3 camera?
4 A None whatsoever. It was perfectly flexible.
5 Q Do you know why he moved the camera?
6 A To get a straight on picture of it. You
7 know, eye level, straight on picture because it's not,
8 you know, the cameras themselves that are in there are
9 not particularly visible as cameras. You know,
10 they're designed to be spy like.
11 They're designed to be -- well, they're
12 sitting in a junction box, you know. They're there
13 for a reason, for spying and, you know, they don't
14 exactly make them obvious.
15 Q And when Mr. Merrett --
16 THE COURT: Hold on just a minute. I
17 need to do something.
18 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
19 place.)
20 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, for the
21 information of the court I will be using
22 exhibit seven for him.
23 THE COURT: You're going to be using
24 that?
25 MR. HOWIE: Yes, sir.
. 1202
1 THE COURT: All right. That's what I
2 wanted to do. Let's do this. We've been
3 going for about an hour. Let's just a short
4 ten minute break and then we'll switch to
5 this and Mr. Minton, you're on the stand. If
6 you want to use the restroom, there are rest
7 rooms in the jury room. We'll come back and
8 we'll get started.
9 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after
10 which the proceedings continued.)
11 THE COURT: Mr. Howie.
12 BY MR. HOWIE:
13 Q May it please the court, Mr. Minton, when we
14 went out on break I was asking you some questions
15 about Mr. Merrett tipping the camera, the spy camera
16 its conduit?
17 A Yes.
18 Q When Mr. Merrett did that, did you hear
19 anything snap or break?
20 A No.
21 Q Why did you then climb the ladder after he
22 came down?
23 A As I said, he wasn't familiar with the macro
24 function on this Olympus digital camera and I was and
25 I said I'd be happy to take the pictures.
. 1203
1 Q And when you climbed the ladder, the
2 videotape shows you placing your hands on the box, as
3 well, and moving it. Why did you then move the spy
4 camera?
5 A For the same presumable reason he did, in
6 order to get a straight on picture of the camera from,
7 you know, as many sides of it as possible just to
8 clearly show what it was.
9 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, I'm not sure I
10 can wait for you to get around to this. But
11 will somebody please have him step down and
12 draw for me or explain to me exactly where
13 this spy camera and what the camera -- what's
14 going on here?
15 MR. HOWIE: Yes, Your Honor. If I may
16 take Exhibit Seven I'll utilize that.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 BY MR. HOWIE:
19 Q Mr. Minton, I'm going to be showing I
20 believe that's Petitioner's Exhibit Seven and I'll ask
21 you to point out to Judge Penick where the junction
22 box is now in that picture as depicted in the picture.
23 THE COURT: Let Mr. Pope come up here so
24 he can see what's going on up here.
25
. 1204
1 BY MR. HOWIE:
2 Q Just point out where the junction box is now
3 in that picture.
4 A Yeah. This, is to my recollection from the
5 day of this event, is not where the junction box was
6 but this is the junction box.
7 Q All right. Now, using your pen, please
8 point out to Judge Penick where the junction box was
9 when you were actually looking at it and manipulating
10 it?
11 A Over on to the rat bait building. Probably
12 right to -- I assume they didn't move it up or down.
13 I would think that it would be on top of the brick,
14 the first brick.
15 Q All right. Now, concerning that junction
16 box, was it fully over against the brick face off the
17 rat bat building or partially; how would you describe
18 that?
19 A From my recollection it was fully on the rat
20 bait building and painted the same color as the rat
21 bait building.
22 Q All right. The brackets that you described
23 that the conduit pivoted on, where was that attached?
24 A Well, it's very hard to see. I'm not sure
25 from this picture, but because as I said the camera
. 1205
1 appears to have been moved back, but the brackets
2 would have been, you know, going in a, sort of making
3 a 90 degree turn towards the Clearwater Bank Building
4 out of the back of this. When I say the back, I mean
5 the back side of this.
6 THE COURT: Are you trying to tell me
7 that inside that box that looks like a --
8 MR. MINTON: An electrical --
9 THE COURT: Electrical conduit box?
10 MR. MINTON: Yes.
11 THE COURT: There was a camera in there?
12 MR. MINTON: Two.
13 THE COURT: Two cameras in there?
14 MR. MINTON: Yes.
15 THE COURT: In that thing?
16 MR. MINTON: Yes, inside it.
17 THE COURT: I see. Okay.
18 MR. MINTON: Facing -- there is two
19 cameras facing over the rat bait building
20 towards the Lisa McPherson Trust.
21 THE COURT: I see. Okay.
22 BY MR. HOWIE:
23 Q All right. If I can take that exhibit back
24 from you then. By the way, Mr. Minton an exhibit was
25 entered by Mr. Merrett earlier in the hearing of a
. 1206
1 junction box. Did you have an opportunity to look at
2 that junction box at that time?
3 A I have seen the junction box, yes.
4 Q Is that junction box fairly and accurately
5 represented by the junction box that you were dealing
6 with here?
7 A It does.
8 Q Now, at one point -- by the way, did you
9 have any trouble moving the camera?
10 A No, it rotated on that bar, you know.
11 Q Was there any resistance to it at all when
12 you moved it?
13 A None, whatsoever.
14 Q All right. When you did move it did you
15 hear anything snap or break?
16 A No.
17 Q Now, the tape shows you at one point moving
18 the ladder of few feet further south. Why did you do
19 you do that?
20 A To get pictures from the other side of it.
21 Q Do you recall any photos took of the spy
22 camera?
23 A I think there were nine in all, a couple
24 of -- well, two of which, you know, was still out of
25 focus with the macro thing and the work of any use.
. 1207
1 Q And you had an opportunity to see these
2 pictures after they were printed, didn't you?
3 A I saw them on the computer. I didn't
4 actually see them printed until some time later.
5 Q All right. And these would be the
6 photographs that were in fact filed with the court,
7 were these photographs that you took that day?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, what did you do with the spy camera
10 when you were finished?
11 A Moved it back up against the wall where it
12 was.
13 Q Did you return it to the same original
14 position that it was before you and Mr. Merrett
15 started this?
16 A Absolutely. You know, at no time, at no
17 time did we, you know, poke into the holes where the
18 lenses of the camera's were. You know, it was just,
19 you know, if we wanted to be destructive of the
20 camera, you know, it would have been easy to just slap
21 it over the wall.
22 Q More specifically, you've heard the
23 allegation during this hearing that the camera was out
24 of focus once you were finished with it. Do you know
25 of anything that you or Mr. Merrett did to throw off
. 1208
1 the focus of the camera?
2 A Absolutely not. The only thing that could
3 have changed the focus was moving the camera back a
4 few inches as it appears to have been moved back once
5 they retechnically oriented it.
6 Q You're saying move as it's indicated in the
7 Exhibit Seven that I just showed you?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Now, did you touch any part of this junction
10 box, the spy camera, other than the outside of the
11 junction box that day?
12 A No.
13 Q The allegation was that both you and
14 Mr. Merrett grabbed and twisted the camera and from
15 that I'm quoting from the order to show cause. How
16 would you characterize how you and Mr. Merrett handled
17 the camera?
18 A Carefully. We carefully moved it and
19 carefully moved it back.
20 Q Okay. Now, at any time during the entire
21 incident did you see anyone that you recognized as
22 being a member of the Church of Scientology or who
23 advised you that they were a member of Church of
24 Scientology who came within ten feet of your position
25 that day?
. 1209
1 A No one.
2 Q Did anybody complain out loud in your
3 presence that you or Mr. Merrett were in their way or
4 blocking their path?
5 A No.
6 Q Concerning the bread delivery which is
7 depicted on the videotape, did you hear anyone
8 complain that you or Mr. Merrett were in the way of
9 the bread delivery?
10 A No.
11 Q And was the bread delivery in fact able to
12 go through the door while you were on the ladder as
13 far as you know?
14 A Yes. The time that I really noticed the
15 bread delivery at all was when the policeman came
16 over. Up until that time I was focused, my attention
17 was focused on taking the pictures of the camera and I
18 had previously observed the bread delivery, but the
19 policeman came and I stopped for a second to talk to
20 him and I saw the bread delivery in process.
21 Q Did you see them have any trouble getting in
22 and out of the door?
23 A No.
24 Q Now, during any part of this incident that
25 you described did you or Mr. Merrett harass or do
. 1210
1 violence to any member of the Church of Scientology?
2 A No, we did not.
3 Q Did either of you do any picketing during
4 this incident?
5 A No.
6 Q Okay. And you mentioned a police officer
7 that came up. Is that the police officer who is
8 depicted in the video?
9 A Yes, it is.
10 Q Okay. Did the police officer who came up to
11 you ever tell you to stop doing what you were doing
12 and to leave?
13 A No, absolutely not.
14 Q What did the officer say to you while you
15 and Mr. Merrett were there?
16 A His first question was good morning. What
17 are you guys doing and I said we're taking pictures of
18 this spy camera and he said okay, fine. He said do
19 you mind if I just stay here and watch until you're
20 finished and I said no, please go ahead.
21 Q During the entire time the officer was there
22 did he ever tell you to stop or did he ever tell you
23 to leave?
24 A No, he did not.
25 Q I want to move on to the matter alleged in
. 1211
1 the order to show cause dated January 10, 2001.
2 Specifically Paragraph 1B on page two. This is the
3 incident involving the private investigator, Lindsey
4 Colton.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Hold it right there.
6 Just a minute. Let me get caught up with
7 you, okay?
8 MR. HOWIE: Okay.
9 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
10 place.)
11 THE COURT: Move at will. Just let me
12 get my notes caught up.
13 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, we would mention
14 to the court, Mr. Minton, are you having some
15 trouble with your throat?
16 THE COURT: You want to take a break?
17 MR. MINTON: No.
18 THE COURT: You have water there. You
19 need some water?
20 MR. HOWIE: I have a cough drop for him.
21 THE COURT: Go ahead.
22 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
23 place.)
24 Let's go ahead.
25 BY MR. HOWIE:
. 1212
1 Q Concerning the incident on January 5
2 involving a private investigator, Lindsey Colton,
3 you've seen the videotape of this, correct?
4 A Yes, I have.
5 Q And I want to ask you about the incident as
6 depicted on the videotape. When this incident first
7 started, did you see both Lindsey Colton and a man
8 behind her with a video camera?
9 A Yes, I did.
10 Q And did you recognize them from anywhere?
11 A Yes. Lindsey Colton, numerous times has
12 been out in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel together
13 with the man at the video camera who is in fact I
14 believe her husband. I think she told that to some
15 people inside Lisa McPherson Trust and I have no
16 reason to disbelieve it, and they are a team of
17 private investigators who have done some considerable
18 work for the Scientology over the last six or eight
19 months.
20 Q All right. Now, have you ever had a
21 confrontation with either of them and by
22 confrontation, words or any degree of hostility
23 between you and Lindsey Colton?
24 A Yes, with both her and her husband in front
25 of the Ft. Harrison Hotel, that her husband
. 1213
1 particularly was part of this human chain that was put
2 up to when they were rotating vans and rotating people
3 out of the front of the Ft. Harrison to make it look
4 like we were out there blocking their traffic, where
5 in fact it was the same people coming in and out of
6 vans, always the same vans and go in and coming back
7 out.
8 Colton, the man Colton, was part of that
9 human chain and sometimes Lindsey Colton, his wife
10 was. They had been out there a number of other times
11 as well, just sort of videoing and they have, both of
12 them have a tendency to be somewhat mouthy, not that I
13 may not have that same tendency, but they most likely
14 initiate it themselves and, you know, I've never had a
15 very cordial relationship with either of those two.
16 In fact I would saw I don't like them.
17 Q Now, when Lindsey Colton first approached
18 you in this videotape, did you see the papers that she
19 had in her hand?
20 A I didn't at first.
21 Q You made a statement on the videotape,
22 listen you come within ten feet of me and you guys are
23 going to get killed. Were you addressing Lindsey
24 Colton and her husband, Greg Colton, at that time?
25 A Yes, I was.
. 1214
1 Q And did you in fact mean you were going to
2 use deadly force against them to lead to the their
3 untimely demise? What did you mean by those
4 statements?
5 A I meant that, you know, that I thought if
6 they came within ten feet of me like that, that Judge
7 Penick was going to kill them.
8 Q Did you do anything at all that day with the
9 intent to either hurt or to cause harm to either Greg
10 Colton or Lindsey Colton?
11 A No.
12 Q Was Lindsey Colton able to get the papers
13 through the door before it closed?
14 A She did.
15 Q All right. Did you pick up the papers in
16 your hand?
17 A I did.
18 Q All right. So was Lindsey Colton right when
19 she said on the videotape, he has been served?
20 A There was no doubt in my mind that I had
21 been served.
22 Q Now the videotape --
23 THE COURT: Just a minute. Hold on.
24
25 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
. 1215
1 place.)
2 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir, for
3 your patience. Go ahead.
4 BY MR. HOWIE:
5 Q Thank you, Your Honor. Now, you said that
6 there was no doubt in you mind that she succeeded in
7 serving the papers on you. You in fact had the papers
8 in your hand, didn't you.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And the video shows that you threw these
11 papers on the sidewalk. What was your reason for
12 doing that?
13 A Well, it was to show the complete disgust at
14 the way, the things that this organization gets their
15 nasty process servers to serve papers on you.
16 Q Were you trying to throw the papers at
17 Lindsey Colton?
18 A No.
19 Q At the time of this incident on January 5,
20 did you have an attorney representing you in this
21 particular matter?
22 A I did.
23 Q Who was that?
24 A Yourself.
25 Q And did you see me appear for you in court
. 1216
1 in this matter on occasions prior to January 5, 2001?
2 A Yes, I have.
3 Q Do you know of any agreement or arrangement
4 at that time that I was not to accept any pleadings or
5 papers on your behalf in this matter?
6 A No, I don't.
7 THE COURT: Just a minute. Hold on.
8 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
9 place.)
10 Mr. Minton, you made a statement
11 earlier, you said that you considered
12 yourself served. What documents were you
13 served with?
14 MR. MINTON: Your Honor, I never picked
15 those documents up out of the street.
16 THE COURT: So you don't know whether
17 they were a copy of the injunction or an
18 order to show cause or anything like that?
19 MR. MINTON: The only thing that I did
20 see was there was a check from Moxon and
21 Kobrin. At the edge of it you could see
22 Moxon and Kobrin on it. It was, you know,
23 disjointed from the papers.
24 THE COURT: So you don't know if it was
25 a subpoena to appear for deposition in the
. 1217
1 wrongful death case or anything like that?
2 MR. MINTON: I'm sure it had to do with
3 that case.
4 THE COURT: It had a check. In other
5 words, you're telling me there was a check
6 attached so you felt it had to a subpoena
7 probably?
8 MR. MINTON: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, for the
11 information of the court I ask the court to
12 take notice of the notice of service of
13 subpoena filed in the court file shortly
14 after January 5. I believe the filing date
15 is January 8.
16 THE COURT: Okay, now January 5, 2001
17 was the date of this event, right?
18 MR. HOWIE: Yes, sir.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Ian, would you come
20 try to find that for me, please, sir?
21 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, for the benefit
22 of the court --
23 THE COURT: Probably filed somewhere
24 January 6 or 7?
25 MR. HOWIE: There is an attachment
. 1218
1 referred to as Attachment A to the return of
2 service.
3 THE COURT: Let's pause until we find
4 that. I want that out of the court file.
5 Let's just pause until I have it.
6 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
7 place.)
8 MR. MINTON: Your Honor, I am certain of
9 one other thing that was included in that
10 packet which was subsequently told by my
11 attorney is that case. That was a subpoena
12 in the case of Ursula Caberta.
13 Someone named Heller, while Mrs. Caberta
14 was in town, was sued by him and Moxon
15 represents him, as well.
16 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm not
17 following you. Ursula Caberta was the lady
18 from Germany?
19 MR. MINTON: Correct.
20 THE COURT: And she's involved in a suit
21 here in Florida?
22 MR. MINTON: When she was here
23 Mr. Moxon's office had a legal case served on
24 her by --
25 THE COURT: Who's Mr. Moxon?
. 1219
1 MR. MINTON: Kendrick, unindicted
2 coconspirator Moxon who is Mrs. Kobrin's law
3 partner.
4 MR. POPE: Excuse me, Your Honor. That
5 unindicted coconspirator bit was just a
6 gratuitous insult and ought to be stricken
7 from the record.
8 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, Mr. Moxon has
9 been identified by that label in the course
10 of these proceedings and I think it will
11 assist the court in identifying --
12 THE COURT: Let me -- wait a minute.
13 Let me, regardless of whatever labels, I'm
14 not sure I'm following things here. Spell
15 the name.
16 MR. MINTON: M-O-X-O-N. Kendrick is his
17 first name.
18 THE COURT: What's the first name?
19 MR. MINTON: Kendrick. He's a
20 California attorney who is a law partner of
21 Mrs. Kobrin here in Clearwater, Florida.
22 THE COURT: All right, and he had papers
23 served on Ursula, is that what you're telling
24 me?
25 MR. MINTON: Ursula Caberta, when she
. 1220
1 was is in Clearwater in, I think it was July.
2 THE COURT: How is Caberta spelled?
3 MR. MINTON: C-A-B-E-R-T-A.
4 THE COURT: C-A-B-E-R-T-A?
5 MR. MINTON: Right. And I believe the
6 plaintiff in the case is a man named Heller;
7 Heller versus Caberta. And included on those
8 documents that Mrs. Colton served on me I
9 subsequently found out from my attorney in
10 this case, named Dan Whitepold, that that
11 service had been alleged to contain those
12 papers as well.
13 THE COURT: Okay, but at least some of
14 the documents that this Colton was trying to
15 serve on you had to do with stuff that
16 Mr. Howie was representing you?
17 MR. MINTON: No. He was --
18 THE COURT: What I'm driving at or what
19 I'm trying to establish here was, was there a
20 necessity to serve you on the street? There
21 is certain type of documents that are more
22 appropriately served on the person, the
23 actual person rather than serving them as
24 professional attorneys do, attorney to
25 attorney.
. 1221
1 MR. MINTON: Right.
2 THE COURT: Okay. So, I'm just trying
3 to establish that those were the type of
4 documents or what was the necessity for the
5 incident to even begin with and if you didn't
6 really look at the documents you may have a
7 problem clarifying this, but Mr. Howie was
8 trying to make a point that he represented
9 you, at least in this matter, and I know
10 Mr. Howie has been an attorney of record on
11 your behalf for over a year in this case.
12 There is no doubt about that my mind, and I
13 was just trying to understand what might or
14 might not have been served on you.
15 Now, what I would like is for silence
16 here for a minute so the staff attorney can
17 show me what's in the court file.
18 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
19 place.)
20 So, what I've got is an affidavit by
21 Lindsey Colton and it really says that I had
22 process for him, a subpoena for deposition,
23 okay. And hold on just a minute, now.
24 Okay. That's all it says and so I don't
25 know what case that could have been a
. 1222
1 subpoena in.
2 Now, let me go one step further. What
3 you got there? Okay. Hold on. Filed with
4 the court January 12. This was filed by me.
5 It was a -- this was Robert Minton, Church
6 of Scientology to show cause. This was an
7 show cause, order to show cause signed by me
8 on the tenth. This wasn't -- this event was
9 on the -- no, this won't cut it because this
10 happened to the fifth and this was
11 subsequent to what happened.
12 MR. POPE: I have the return on service
13 here if you want to see it, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: I this case?
15 MR. POPE: In this case.
16 THE COURT: Hold on. Just a minute
17 Mr. Pope. Mr. Howie?
18 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, there is an
19 attachment, Attachment A to this particular
20 return of service. It has been in the court
21 file and I believe it was filed on or about
22 January 8, about three days after the
23 incident.
24 THE COURT: Was it a subpoena in this
25 case?
. 1223
1 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I did not see
2 any reference to a subpoena. I saw reference
3 to the temporary injunction, the two orders
4 to show cause, the motion for order to show
5 cause, I believe one or two other motions and
6 perhaps the notice on that list. There was
7 no reference on that list to a subpoena.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Now we've got a
9 problem.
10 MR. HOWIE: It is --
11 THE COURT: We got to get something
12 straight here because someone is pointing out
13 to me I might have a bogus affidavit on my
14 hands. She says she served a subpoena for
15 deposition.
16 That's what Colton's affidavit says, so
17 I want to get to the bottom of this right
18 now. If I got some perjury here, I want to
19 deal with it. Let's get to the bottom of
20 this.
21 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I'll simply
22 stand on what appears in the court file.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to delve
24 into this. We'll take a break. Give the
25 staff attorney a chance to look at these
. 1224
1 files for me without any help from anyone.
2 We'll take a break here.
3 (A short recess took place after which the
4 proceedings continued.)
5 THE COURT: All right, ladies and
6 gentlemen, let me just take a pause here just
7 a minute. Here's what we found.
8 In the court file is an affidavit by
9 Lindsey Colton and reads in part, paragraph
10 two, on January 5, 2001 I was attending to
11 the service of Robert Minton. I was on
12 Watterson Avenue, just south of the Lisa
13 McPherson Trust, when Mr. Minton pulled up
14 in a car. As I approached, Mr. Minton saw
15 me from his rear view mirror. Mr. Minton
16 got out of the car and as he was doing
17 yelled, listen, you come within ten feet of
18 me and you guys are going to get killed. I
19 informed Mr. Minton that I had process for
20 him, a subpoena for deposition. Mr. Minton
21 ran into the building saying and we'll just
22 stop there.
23 Then I go over here and look at the next
24 paragraph and there is nothing else than
25 what she had other than in paragraph five it
. 1225
1 says, as I was walking away, Minton threw
2 the papers towards me and they scattered on
3 the ground.
4 This is signed under oath by Lindsey
5 Colton on it was notarized on the eighth day
6 of January, the year 2001.
7 Okay. Now, I go over to the court file
8 again and I come across the return of
9 service that was filed on the 10th day of
10 January, 2001, which was under penalty of
11 perjury again by Lindsey Colton, signed by
12 her, which states while running away and
13 attempting to evade service, Mr. Minton
14 yelled at the process server, listen, you
15 come within ten feet of me and you guys are
16 going to get killed.
17 Then it says document served, it says
18 see Attached A for a listing of documents
19 served. And attached to it, Attachment A to
20 Lindsey Colton's return of service for and
21 on Robert S. Minton, Jr. And I will read
22 what she served.
23 1. Amended and consolidated order to
24 show cause.
25 2. Verified amended and supplemental
. 1226
1 complaint for injunctive relief.
2 3. Plaintiff's motion for leave to
3 amend Paragraph 16C and 16E of amended and
4 supplemental complaint.
5 4. verified amendment to paragraph 16C
6 and 16E of amended and supplemental
7 complaint filed October 12, 2000.
8 5. Order granting plaintiff's motion to
9 leave to add parties defendant.
10 6. Temporary Injunction Number Two.
11 7. Order to show cause.
12 8. Motion for an order to cause re: why
13 Robert Minton, John Merrett, Lisa McPherson
14 Trust, Inc., Grady Ward, Jesse Prince, Rod
15 Keller, Heather Bennett and Frank Oliver
16 should not be held in contempt.
17 And this says page two of two, but
18 actually it's attached to what was filed
19 with the court was only one page. The
20 second page is not there. Now --
21 MR. POPE: The first page in the return,
22 I believe.
23 THE COURT: Yeah, I guess -- excuse me,
24 you're right. It says page two of two, so
25 that would be two. And so, okay, now, I have
. 1227
1 a disparity in the record, both of them made
2 under oath which I'll deal with at a later
3 time. I'm not going to bog this down.
4 MR. POPE: May I just explain the
5 situation?
6 THE COURT: No. We're going to deal
7 with it with Ms. Colton here in my presence.
8 MR. POPE: She's coming as a rebuttal
9 witness.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Pope.
11 MR. POPE: Yes, sir.
12 THE COURT: She's an invited guest and I
13 will deal with this accordingly.
14 MR. POPE: There is a simple
15 explanation.
16 THE COURT: I hope, I hope for her sake.
17 Because, you know where this goes if there
18 isn't a simple -- now, I don't want to debate
19 it.
20 Please warn her, Mr. Pope. Give her the
21 good news that she could wind out at 49th
22 Street. Let's get on with it, all right?
23 BY MR. HOWIE:
24 Q Mr. Minton, when we received the second
25 temporary injunction from the court on November 30,
. 1228
1 2000, did you receive a copy this injunction through
2 me?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q When and under what circumstances?
5 A I believe that you and Mr. Merrett were
6 here. The judge signed this order sometime after
7 one o'clock on the day of the 30th.
8 You and Mr. Merrett had to do some things
9 here. I don't know what you were doing, but you said
10 that you would give my copy to John Merrett to bring
11 back to the Lisa McPherson Trust for me to see.
12 Q And did that in fact happen?
13 A It did, yes.
14 Q That same day?
15 A It did, sometime later that afternoon.
16 Q Now, before the second temporary injunction
17 in the matter was issued on November 30, did you ever
18 have a problem accepting service of any papers from
19 any process server in connection with this matter?
20 A No.
21 Q On or after November 30, I emphasize on or
22 after November 30 the year 2000, were you aware that
23 Mr. Merrett had in fact turned away process servers in
24 this matter?
25 A Yes, I was very much aware of that.
. 1229
1 Q Now, as of January 5, 2001, the date of this
2 incident, was it your belief that the employees of the
3 Church of Scientology were covered by this temporary
4 injunction?
5 A Employees, agents, all that other stuff as
6 well.
7 Q Okay. Now, by that did you in your own mind
8 include private investigators working for the Church
9 of Scientology?
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q Did you believe Lindsey Colton and her
12 husband, Greg Colton, to be private investigators
13 working for the Church of Scientology?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q When you turned and moved away from Lindsey
16 Colton that day, was it your intent to obstruct or
17 embarrass the court in its functions?
18 A Absolutely not.
19 Q Was this the first time since the temporary
20 injunction was issued on November 30 that you were
21 served any paper in this matter?
22 A I'm not certain.
23 Q Okay.
24 A I don't recall. I don't recall ever having
25 been served the injunction other than, you know, being
. 1230
1 put on notice of it by you as my attorney that you
2 would send it to me via John Merrett.
3 Q During this entire incident on January 5,
4 apart from Lindsey Colton, leaving her out of this for
5 a moment, was there a member of the Church of
6 Scientology within ten feet of you that day?
7 A No.
8 Q During that incident did you block the path
9 of any member of the Church of Scientology?
10 A No, I did not.
11 Q During that incident did you harass or do
12 violence to any member of the Church of Scientology?
13 A No, I did not.
14 Q Are you familiar with the Church of
15 Scientology's Fair Game policy?
16 A Yes, I am.
17 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor.
18 You've already excluded this information. It
19 serves no useful purpose in this matter
20 issue. The issue is compliance or
21 noncompliance with the court's injunction.
22 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, since
23 Mr. Minton's intent at the time is at issue
24 and since we are allowed to raise it as a
25 defense as an essential element in proving a
. 1231
1 violation of the injunction under the
2 Thompson case which the petitioner itself has
3 submitted to the court, I think I should be
4 allowed to inquire what Mr. Minton's state of
5 mind was, including any policies by the
6 Church of Scientology if he was acting in
7 opposition to.
8 THE COURT: Well, since this incident is
9 an issue and this is Mr. Minton's day in
10 court, I'm going to allow you to go ahead.
11 Proceed.
12 BY MR. HOWIE:
13 Q Thank you. Mr. Minton, I asked if you are
14 familiar with the Church of Scientology's Fair Game
15 policy. What is your understanding, your own
16 understanding of that policy.
17 A My own understanding of their Fair Game
18 policy is that anyone who is in any way critical of
19 Scientology is basically to be gotten rid of in
20 whatever way is necessary and one of the ways that
21 they get rid of people is to turn them into criminals,
22 whether they orchestrate the criminal behavior or the
23 person is a criminal in any case.
24 You know, it's on national television. Mike
25 Render, in a program that was done about me --
. 1232
1 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor.
2 Hearsay.
3 BY MR. HOWIE:
4 Q I'm just asking -- may it please the court,
5 I'm only asking you about your own understanding of
6 the Fair Game policy.
7 A Okay.
8 Q Please proceed if you have anything further?
9 A Well, my understanding comes from statements
10 made in L. Ron Hubbard's own words that anybody who
11 attacks the Church of Scientology is a criminal and
12 essential to that fact is that the Office of Special
13 Affairs trying to ensure that that is what happened to
14 anybody who attacks in a significant way, that
15 organization.
16 Q Now, does the Fair Game policy include
17 setting up people to make them look bad according to
18 you own understanding?
19 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor. I
20 mean there is no -- if what he wants to
21 establish is that he was concerned about this
22 policy, he's done that already. He doesn't
23 need to get into all of this that you have
24 excluded earlier.
25 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I'll move on to
. 1233
1 the next area.
2 THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
3 BY MR. HOWIE:
4 Q Over the past months or years, have you been
5 served with papers from the Church of Scientology?
6 A Many times.
7 Q Can you tell us how, under what
8 circumstances, you have been served papers by the
9 Church of Scientology in the past?
10 A Almost every conceivable circumstances. You
11 know, going to a Mother's Day dinner in Boston, on my
12 birthday. You know a process server or PI, usually
13 they're both with the Scientologists, came to my home
14 in New Hampshire with a big bouquet of flowers and a
15 big bouquet of balloons, you know, knocks on the front
16 door and says Mr. Minton, I have some flowers and
17 balloons for you. Happy birthday, so I take them and
18 he whips out of his back pocket, a subpoena and, you
19 know, almost always at the airports when I go to
20 Boston to leave on flights they serve me at the gate,
21 at the departure gate.
22 These are not process servers, but a member
23 of the Church of Scientology, Gerard Renna, who is the
24 OSA man in Boston, served me there along with and
25 brings along a State Trooper and the State Trooper
. 1234
1 gets told, you know, that I'm a dangerous person and
2 that's why he needs to be there.
3 They served me when I arrived in Columbus,
4 Ohio. They serve me at the gate, they served me when
5 I arrived at Tampa, Florida at the gate. They have
6 served me when I was leaving Tampa, Florida at the
7 gate. They have served me in my hotel in Tampa, Hyatt
8 Westshore, for in example.
9 And friends of mine, for example,
10 Ms. Caberta, you know, had process servers following
11 her all over the Biltmore Hotel the entire time of her
12 stay as well as PIs, so numerous occasions and also
13 just, normal, routine ones, as well. I'm just
14 speaking of the ones that are a little but out of the
15 ordinary because, you know, it's necessary to monitor
16 somebody's movement to serve them at the gate when
17 they're departing or at the gate when they are
18 arriving.
19 Q Now, during these instances, have you ever
20 had any problem, you, yourself, accepting service of
21 process, even under these circumstances?
22 A Other than the normal emotional upheaval of
23 now what are these guys serving me with, you know.
24 That's all. You know, pretty straight forward.
25 Q Well, let me ask you this. Apart from the
. 1235
1 January 5 incident, is this the only time where you
2 have ever turned and moved away from the person who as
3 it turned out was trying to serve you papers in this
4 matter?
5 A Yes. If I could just add a couple of
6 things. I remembered some other instances.
7 Q In response to my previous question?
8 A Yes, in response to your previous question.
9 I mean, you know, there have been a number of process
10 servers, very nice, friendly process servers who come
11 into the LMT. One of them was up here and he
12 mentioned that he was a first name basis with Bob,
13 Stacy and some of the others. They come to Stacy's
14 house.
15 Others, for example, another one who was
16 serving, Stacy and I were driving to her house and we
17 get inside the garage and all of sudden this guy comes
18 zooming into the driveway when the garage door is
19 going down and he sticks his car right in the front
20 of, under the garage door, so you either let it hit
21 his car ot stop it, and he got out said he had papers
22 to serve.
23 Q Even then you accepted the papers?
24 A Yes.
25 Q I want to move on to the third and fourth
. 1236
1 matters which occurred together on January 6. These
2 were the matters involving the Threep and this was the
3 allegation in Paragraph 1D, Paragraph 1F on page two
4 and three of the January 10 order to show cause.
5 I want to start by asking you about the
6 Threep itself. Who developed it or invented it, to
7 your knowledge?
8 A Randy Enerson, who is the gentleman in the
9 blue coat, red tie and white flower sitting in the
10 front row there next to Mrs. Bezazian.
11 Q When did you first see the Threep, the
12 prototype?
13 A Um, it was the day I arrived in Clearwater
14 from Boston. I think it was the first -- I'm not sure
15 when it was, but it could have been this date. I'm
16 just not certain.
17 Q This date being January 6?
18 A Yes, it could have been that.
19 Q Okay. You've seen tapes, videotapes of you
20 walking around carrying the Threep. Is this the same
21 item that has been place in evidence? Have you seen
22 that in evidence?
23 A Yes, it is. I might add, I thought it was a
24 very impressive piece of workmanship.
25 Q The Threep that you saw here in court as was
. 1237
1 introduced in court, is that substantially in the same
2 condition its appearance it was on January 6?
3 A Yes, I think the injunction on the end of it
4 has become a little bit tattered by virtue of the
5 exposure to moisture, humidity and things like that
6 while it was outside, but, yes it is the same.
7 Q Now, what, to your understanding, is the
8 purpose of the Threep?
9 A The Threep is basically a tool to help
10 enforce the injunction.
11 Q Now, does it do that?
12 A Well, it makes it very clear what ten feet
13 is which is very central part of Judge Penick's
14 injunction. And if someone is approaching you or you
15 are approaching someone and you have some doubt that
16 they're a Scientologist or not a Scientologist, you
17 know, it is useful to have the injunction on the end
18 of it so that you could point out to them that there
19 is a mutual injunction involved here that we all have
20 to be careful of and we can basically move around the
21 plane of that pole and still be ten feet away from
22 each and pass.
23 Q So the purpose of the Threep is in fact to
24 enforce the injunction?
25 A It is, yes.
. 1238
1 Q Well, is it the purpose of the Threep to
2 mock the injunction?
3 A Absolutely not. I mean, I think it is an
4 extremely clever and colorful way to remind everybody
5 that there is something that all the people moving
6 around downtown Clearwater should be aware of and, you
7 know, most of the people moving around downtown
8 Clearwater are Scientologists.
9 Q At the time of this incident on January 6
10 when you had the Threep in your hand, what was your
11 own opinion or attitude or feelings towards the second
12 temporary injunction?
13 A I liked it. In fact, I posted a message on
14 the internet. It was actually dated the day after the
15 injunction but it was posted like 12:30 at night so it
16 was really the same day that I really liked.
17 MR. HOWIE: If I may approach the
18 witness, Your Honor?
19 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
20 BY MR. HOWIE:
21 Q Mr. Minton, you mentioned posting a
22 statement on the internet concerning your own attitude
23 or opinion of the second temporary injunction. I have
24 shown you an item. Can you describe for the record
25 what that item is?
. 1239
1 A This is a copy of the internet posting I
2 made to the news group Atl.Religion.Scientology on
3 Friday the 1st of December at 0036 hours.
4 Q Is this the same posting that you are
5 referring to in your testimony?
6 A It is.
7 Q And does that include or attached to it was
8 there included the text of the second temporary
9 injunction?
10 A Yes. I included the text of Temporary
11 Injunction Number Two. I scanned it in and, you know,
12 and neatened it up and everything and put it in.
13 Also you're not allowed on this particular
14 news group, Alt.Religion.Scientology to post binary
15 messages to it, which would have been the maps that
16 were attached to the injunction. And so those binary
17 maps were posted to Alt.Binary.Scientology which is
18 just a binary group that people can actual go and
19 retrieve J peg scans, for example. I believe they
20 were done in J peg format, so that they could print it
21 out in color if they wanted to, to have exactly what
22 all the maps were that were attached to the
23 injunction.
24 THE COURT: What's binary?
25 MR. MINTON: It's a not a text file. It
. 1240
1 will include -- what happens when you
2 instruct a J peg picture or a Giff, these are
3 the two common type of things that are
4 transmitted over the internet because they
5 are smaller in size than say a big photo shop
6 file, they are -- most of the news readers
7 that people use to observe the internet,
8 these news readers actually translate the
9 binary bits of information with zeros and
10 ones basically into a picture. They're
11 converted automatically into a picture when
12 you receive it.
13 It's not like the -- this same principle
14 would happen in e-mail when someone sends
15 you an e-mail that included a picture. They
16 normally send you a picture as an attachment
17 and the attachment is automatically
18 converted did from a binary, from binary
19 bits of information into the actual picture
20 itself.
21 THE COURT: Okay. I understand.
22 MR. MINTON: But the news group,
23 Alt.Religion.Scientology is for people to
24 post text messages. Binary files tend to be
25 bigger.
. 1241
1 You know, it kind of messes of the news
2 group to have those, so there is a separate
3 news group for any binary attachments that
4 you want to include.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. HOWIE:
7 Q Mr. Minton, does this posting on the
8 internet that you have before you accurately reflect
9 your opinion towards the second temporary injunction
10 both on December 1 and on January 6, 2001?
11 A Yes, I would say that as of January 6, 2001
12 and today I have slightly different feelings about the
13 injunction, but they are still basically and
14 completely in line with this.
15 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, at this time I'd
16 like to move this item into the evidence.
17 It's not previously been marked for
18 identification.
19 THE COURT: Did you give copies to
20 Mr. Pope and Mr. Merrett?
21 MR. HOWIE: I have, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Any objections?
23 MR. POPE: No, objections, Your Honor.
24 MR. MERRETT: No objection.
25 THE COURT: Please stand them up here.
. 1242
1 This will be Mr. Minton's exhibit. I'm not
2 sure if it's number four or five.
3 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I don't know
4 that I have more than one.
5 THE COURT: Well, let's call it two.
6 MR. HOWIE: Thank you.
7 (Whereupon, Defendant Minton's Exhibit
8 Number Two was admitted into evidence.
9 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, if I may
10 approach the bench?
11 THE COURT: You may, sir. And this is
12 in evidence, your number two. And I'm going
13 to show it because -- well, let the record
14 reflect that this one exhibit, there's one,
15 two, three, four, five pages that I'm just
16 putting here five pages, dash, one document.
17 All right. Please proceed.
18 BY MR. HOWIE:
19 Q Mr. Minton, I'm going to show you what's
20 been marked as an exhibit. I think the tag is too far
21 away from me. Is this in fact the Threep that you
22 were carrying that day?
23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q From what you can see of it, does is
25 resemble the way it looked the day you were carrying
. 1243
1 it on January 6?
2 A It does.
3 Q All right. On January 6 were there any
4 other writings or markings of any kind other than the
5 injunction affixed to the Threep?
6 A No.
7 Q Specifically, were there any writings or
8 words or devices on the Threep on January 6 where it
9 meant to protest against or mock members of the Church
10 of Scientology?
11 A No, there weren't.
12 Q Now, the afternoon of January 6 you're shown
13 on the videotape crossing the driveway of the Coachman
14 Building parking lot between two designated orange
15 zones on the maps attached to the injunction on your
16 way back to the Lisa McPherson Trust Building. Did
17 you see Mr. Avila at that time?
18 A Yes, I did.
19 Q And what was he doing?
20 A Basically, filming us, know, walking our
21 way -- filming.
22 Q All right. In doing this filming, did Mr.
23 Avila get close to you at any time?
24 A A couple times he was getting, you know,
25 close to ten feet.
. 1244
1 Q All right.
2 A I don't know of he ever got closer than ten
3 feet, you know, he was moving in that direction.
4 Q As you approached the driveway of the
5 Coachman parking lot, how close was Mr. Avila to you?
6 A 12 feet, maybe.
7 Q What did you do in response to Mr. Avila's
8 presence at that time?
9 A I reminded him to keep his distance of ten
10 feet.
11 THE COURT: Excuse me, just a minute.
12 What's the date of this event?
13 MR. HOWIE: January 6.
14 THE COURT: This is still the sixth?
15 MR. HOWIE: Yes, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 BY MR. HOWIE:
18 Q When you say that you reminded him to keep
19 his distance, how exactly did you remind him?
20 A The Threep was extended. An obvious measure
21 of --
22 THE COURT: No, I just heard that noise
23 and looked to see what it was.
24 MR. BUNKER: I was just changing the
25 tape. I apologize, Your Honor.
. 1245
1 THE COURT: Close it up, one or the
2 other.
3 MR. BUNKER: I apologize, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: It distracted me and the
5 witness. In fact, shut it down right now.
6 Shut them both down right now.
7 The deal was if you distracted they were
8 over. It's over. Close them. Put them
9 down. And you can shut them down
10 afterwards. You move away from there so I
11 know they're not running.
12 BY MR. HOWIE:
13 Q Now, Mr. Minton --
14 THE COURT: I apologize, Mr. Minton.
15 I'm sorry. Let's just say I haven't got
16 control of everybody but I'm going to get it
17 real quick. I'm running out of patience.
18 Let's go, Mr. Howie.
19 BY MR. HOWIE:
20 Q Yes, sir. You indicated that Mr. Avila was
21 standing there; that you had the Threep in your hand
22 and that you used the Threep to advise Mr. Avila. Can
23 you explain how and why did that?
24 A Well, to advise him of the ten feet and as
25 we were moving across at that driveway, you know, he
. 1246
1 was moving as well and, you know, it merely shows for
2 both, Mr. Avila and myself, what ten feet is.
3 THE COURT: And you're moving across the
4 Coachman driveway?
5 MR. MINTON: Right.
6 THE COURT: That parking lot?
7 MR. MINTON: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Do we have that videotape?
9 MR. HOWIE: Yes, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Let's put it on so he can
11 explain to me exactly what's going on. Find
12 is and let's put it on. We'll take a break
13 here until he can find it.
14 MR. HOWIE: Yes, sir.
15 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after
16 which the proceedings continued.)
17 THE COURT: All right. I had requested
18 that we locate that film so that we can play
19 it. Have you don't that?
20 MR. HOWIE: Yes, Your Honor. It's all
21 set up and ready to go.
22 THE COURT: Let's do this. Mr. Merrett,
23 you may step down and go out there. Now,
24 look. Please, do me a favor. Remember,
25 you're on the witness stand. Don't let
. 1247
1 anybody talk to you, pass you notes or even
2 attempt to talk in a loud voice around you,
3 okay. If you have any problems like we did
4 with that sound equipment, look at me and
5 we'll take care of it, okay.
6 MR. MINTON: You're calling me
7 Mr. Merrett, now.
8 THE COURT: I'm sorry. You play lawyer
9 and let him defend himself.
10 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I have a chair
11 set out for Mr. Minton if he wants to take
12 that.
13 THE COURT: That would be great.
14 (Whereupon, the requested videotape was
15 played for the court.)
16 Did you want to ask any questions of him
17 while that was running?
18 MR. HOWIE: No, Your Honor, but now that
19 it has run I would ask a couple of follow-up
20 questions.
21 THE COURT: Proceed.
22 BY MR. HOWIE:
23 Q While you were talking to Mr. Avila -- while
24 you were talking on the megaphone, were you addressing
25 Mr. Avila?
. 1248
1 A Up to a point, yes.
2 Q And was Mr. Avila the one who was in fact
3 making this videotape?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And it shows you walking across a break in
6 the sidewalk. Was that in fact the driveway to the
7 Coachman parking lot?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Thank you.
10 THE COURT: You can go back. You can go
11 back up there.
12 BY MR. HOWIE:
13 Q Now, you heard your voice on the tape as you
14 were crossing the driveway to the Coachman parking lot
15 and it's fairly clear what you were saying, but do you
16 recall saying anything as you crossed the driveway to
17 the Coachman parking lot that is not clear on this
18 tape?
19 A No.
20 Q Now, Mr. Avila said on that same day shortly
21 after this incident that we saw here that he did not
22 videotape you as you went along Cleveland Street from
23 Ft. Harrison to Watterson because you were not
24 demonstrating. Is that in fact correct that you were
25 not demonstrating?
. 1249
1 A That's correct, we were not.
2 Q And once you were on Watterson, the
3 videotape shows you on the east side of Watterson
4 speaking through the megaphone?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Was that in fact you on the tape?
7 A Yes, it was.
8 Q Okay. Now, after you spoke on the
9 megaphone, what did you do with the megaphone?
10 A At some point there right around the white
11 line area, you know, we were finished and I gave the
12 megaphone I think to Arnie Lerma.
13 Q Now, after you gave the megaphone to Arnie
14 Lerma, what did you do then?
15 A I proceeded north along Watterson Street on
16 the east side of the sidewalk and at some point I
17 believe this is the time and incident you're talking
18 about, at some point I crossed the street
19 catty-corner.
20 You know, there was nobody around. The
21 street was empty. It was a Saturday, I believe.
22 Crossed the street and got on the to the west side of
23 Watterson Street heading back to the Lisa McPherson
24 Trust.
25 Q All right. And while you were crossing the
. 1250
1 street and while you are on the west side of Watterson
2 Street, the video shows you carrying the Threep in
3 your hands; is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Did you have anything else in your hands as
6 you crossed the street or walked along the west side
7 of Watterson?
8 A No. I had given the megaphone to Arnie
9 Lerma.
10 Q While you were crossing Watterson or while
11 you were on the west side of Watterson, did you say or
12 shout anything out loud during that time?
13 A Not that I can recall. And the things that
14 I heard on the videotape seem to be coming from
15 somebody who was carrying a megaphone. I believe that
16 was Arnie Lerma's voice.
17 Q Now, you have in fact see the videotape in
18 past, haven't you?
19 A Yes, here in the courtroom.
20 Q Okay. During the time it depicts you
21 crossing Watterson or being on the west side of
22 Watterson, do you hear anything on that tape that can
23 be ascribed to you?
24 A Not that I can recall. I'd have to look at
25 the tape again.
. 1251
1 Q All right. While you were doing this did
2 you see any members of the Church of Scientology who
3 got within ten feet of you?
4 A No, there was no -- there were no people on
5 the street other than Antonio and the two policemen.
6 Q Where were the two policemen in relation to
7 the Antonio Avila?
8 A Well, they were -- I'm not even sure which
9 side of the street they were on at that time. They
10 shift sides of the street. Sometimes they're on the
11 east side, sometimes they're on the west side and I
12 don't remember where they were at that time.
13 Q While you were on Watterson that day as
14 depicted in the videotape, did you see any members of
15 the Church of Scientology who you harassed or did any
16 violence to?
17 A No.
18 Q While on Watterson did you block any
19 vehicles from entering or leaving or any persons from
20 entering or leaving the area?
21 A No.
22 Q Specifically, did you block any entrances to
23 the buildings as you moved up towards Lisa McPherson
24 Trust?
25 A No.
. 1252
1 Q What was your purpose in crossing Watterson
2 Street being on the west side of Watterson Street?
3 A I was finished and just heading back to the
4 Trust.
5 Q Now, again while you were on Watterson
6 Street during this particular episode, apart from the
7 injunction hanging off the end of the Threep, was
8 there any writing of any kind on the Threep?
9 A No, there wasn't.
10 Q Now, last I want to go to the incident on
11 the evening of January 7, 2001 on Watterson Street as
12 set out in the January 10 order to show cause at
13 Paragraph 1H on page four.
14 Are you acquainted with Mark Bunker?
15 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, just a second.
16 Give me that again, paragraph four?
17 MR. HOWIE: Paragraph 1H on page four,
18 January 10 order to show cause.
19 THE COURT: Please proceed.
20 BY MR. HOWIE:
21 Q Thank you. You're acquainted with Mark
22 Bunker, aren't you?
23 A Yes, I am.
24 Q How long have you been acquainted with
25 Mr. Bunker?
. 1253
1 A Since the beginning of 1999 personally and
2 then prior to that I had some communications with him
3 without ever having met him.
4 Q All right. Now, this past fall, by which I
5 mean fall of the year 2000, did you have the
6 opportunity to view a videotape produced by Mark
7 Bunker concerning the subject matter of the connection
8 of some members of the Clearwater Police Department to
9 the Church of Scientology?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q And when did you in fact first view that
12 tape?
13 A I believe it was sometime in October, soon
14 after it made; maybe even the day after it was
15 finished.
16 Q October of 2000?
17 A Yes.
18 Q I'm going to show you what's been marked
19 Robert Minton Exhibit One for identification and ask
20 if you recognize that?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q What is that, please?
23 A This would appear to be the tape that
24 Mr. Bunker made concerning Scientology and the
25 Clearwater police.
. 1254
1 Q Okay. Have you view that tape in its
2 entirety at one point or another?
3 A Yes, I have.
4 Q And where and under what circumstances did
5 you view it in October of 2000?
6 A In Mark Bunker's office.
7 Q Now, based on your own observations of the
8 tape itself, what is the actual subject matter of that
9 tape in your own words?
10 A The subject matter is a perceived bias on
11 the part of the Clearwater Police Department against
12 the people working for the Lisa McPherson Trust.
13 Q All right. Now, as result --
14 A Sorry. Just let me clarify that.
15 Q Sure. Go ahead.
16 A I'm not talking about the whole police
17 department. I'm talking about some of the people in
18 the police department who are working for -- some of
19 the people in the police department who work the white
20 lines out on Watterson Avenue.
21 Q All right. Now, as a result of viewing this
22 tape combined with any other personal experiences or
23 observations you may have, did you form any personal
24 belief or personal attitude concerning the involvement
25 of some members of the Clearwater Police Department
. 1255
1 and the relationship to Church of Scientology?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q And what is that personal belief or attitude
4 that you have?
5 A Well, the most obvious thing to me out of
6 this videotape is that it is very, very difficult for
7 some, few, members of the Clearwater Police Department
8 to forget who is footing the bill for them when they
9 are out on Watterson Street and when they are out in
10 situations in Clearwater that may involve a member of
11 the Lisa McPherson Trust, particularly in a case where
12 it involves a member of the Lisa McPherson Trust and
13 another Scientologist.
14 Q Did the information on this videotape that
15 was produced by Mark Bunker have any role forming your
16 persona; beliefs and attitudes concerning this?
17 A It did, yes.
18 Q Did you believe the matters asserted on this
19 tape were true or substantially true? Did you accept
20 them as true?
21 A I did accept them as true.
22 Q Now, taking this belief or attitude, it is
23 your position that all members of the Clearwater
24 Police Department or partial to or biased in favor of
25 the Church of Scientology?
. 1256
1 A Absolutely not. I think that, you know,
2 there are many Clearwater police officers who are out
3 there doing the best job they can for their community.
4 Q Now, this belief or attitude that you have
5 concerning some members of the Clearwater Police
6 Department, did you completely form this belief or
7 attitude prior to the incident on January 7, 2001?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q And on the evening of January 7, 2001 when
10 you had you confrontation with two members of
11 Clearwater Police Department, were you acting as
12 speaking in accordance with that belief?
13 A Yes, I was.
14 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, at this time I
15 would move Minton's Exhibit One into
16 evidence.
17 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Grounds.
19 MR. POPE: I had the opportunity to view
20 this tape over the weekend. This is not a
21 tape of an event that occurred or that is the
22 subject matter of any event, anything that
23 charged on the order to show cause.
24 All of these events, they occurred
25 beforehand and most of them aren't events at
. 1257
1 all.
2 Let me just tell you what this tape is a
3 about. Essentially, this is a self-serving
4 documentary type production that Mr. Bunker
5 put together and narrates, in which he
6 basically points out how bad the
7 Scientologists are and how the police are
8 biased in their favor.
9 He interviews Gabe Cazariz, former
10 mayor, and Ray Emmons, former police officer
11 and they say things like this a criminal
12 organization. It's a continuing criminal
13 enterprise.
14 Mr. Emmons says that he investigated the
15 Scientologists for 20 years and shopped his
16 finding to federal and state people and
17 couldn't get anybody to take them on because
18 they were afraid to do it.
19 At one point there is a statement made,
20 a large percentage of the Clearwater Police
21 Force now work for Scientology. At one
22 point Mr. Emmonx say that the police
23 officers being indoctrinated, that this cult
24 brainwashes people and we're dealing with
25 impressionable young officers who are being
. 1258
1 brainwashed and they're telling lies about
2 LMT. They discussed the purported Fair Game
3 policy.
4 They claim that Scientology kills your
5 animals, follows you in the night, gets you
6 fired and ruins your credit and the
7 statement was made that the police are
8 absolutely unwilling to do anything to
9 protect the protesters and that they are
10 less willing to protect us than they are the
11 Scientologists.
12 Your Honor, there is no way I can
13 cross-examine Mr. Emmons and Mr. Cazariz.
14 It's basically a self-serving narration to
15 the effect that the Scientologists are bad
16 people and the police are too.
17 Now, Mr. Minton has said that he viewed
18 this and he has testified as to his state of
19 mind. He can certainly testify that this
20 video provoked his state of mind. I don't
21 know how in the world I can rebut that but
22 there is absolutely no necessity for putting
23 this on at this time in this courtroom as
24 just more of the same, all the
25 Scientologists are bad guys. It proves
. 1259
1 nothing whatsoever in the matter.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Howie.
3 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I believe we may
4 have two grounds for objection here,
5 relevance and hearsay if I understand the
6 objection correctly.
7 It's our position first that this is
8 relevant because the intent again under
9 Thompson is a necessary element to establish
10 contempt to violate a court order. And we
11 are arguing that Mr. Minton's intent or
12 state of mind was no to violate the court's
13 injunction, but to speak and react to what
14 he viewed as collusion between the
15 Scientologists and some officers of the
16 Clearwater Police Department. And this tape
17 since it did establish the basis for his
18 forming that state of mind, this tape give
19 insight into Mr. Minton's state of mind at
20 the time and serves as an appropriate and in
21 fact necessary component to a defense in
22 this matter.
23 The argument that this is a self-serving
24 tape or self-serving statement is basically
25 an hearsay objection and the reason for that
. 1260
1 is that although certain statements are
2 allowed in under certain exceptions, it is
3 self-serving and therefore should not come
4 in as an out of court statement.
5 It is our position that this is not
6 being submitted to prove the truth of the
7 matter asserted on the tape.
8 Mr. Minton had no involvement in the
9 production of the tape so it cannot be his
10 self-serving statement and we only
11 submitting it for purposes of showing that
12 Mr. Minton believes the items on the tape to
13 be true in forming his opinion and acting on
14 that opinion on the evening of January 7.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett.
16 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I would join
17 in Mr. Howie's argument. Essentially, the
18 purpose of it, the good faith or belief of
19 Mr. Minton that the police officers were
20 agents of Scientology has been questioned
21 both by Mr. Pope and I believe the court
22 asked some questions in that regard of
23 earlier witnesses about whether that was
24 believed and why and the state of mind
25 exception I believe applies.
. 1261
1 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pope,
2 rebuttal?
3 MR. POPE: Your Honor, you know, there
4 has been much made about the fact that the
5 Scientologists reimburse the police
6 department for the costs of these officers to
7 come out there and patrol.
8 I'd point out to you that Mr. Minton
9 pays Mr. Bunker's salary. He funds LMT and
10 Mr. Bunker who made this anti Scientology
11 propaganda piece is on his payroll, so, you
12 know, that's just one more chink in his
13 trustworthiness armor and the prejudicial
14 effects of this would be just a bias rant
15 against the police and Scientology outweigh
16 any probative value and he's already
17 testified to what his state of mind is.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Gentleman, I thank
19 you all very much for your arguments. I'm
20 going to allow it and I'm going to give it
21 exactly the credibility I feel it deserves.
22 Let's proceed.
23 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I'm not going to
24 publish it at this time. It is somewhat
25 lengthy, unless the court wants to use our
. 1262
1 time today to do that. It was not my intent
2 to do that.
3 MR. MERRETT: Judge, if I could make an
4 observation, it is 21 minutes long, if I
5 recall correctly. It would probably be an
6 appropriate time to take a lunch break.
7 THE COURT: We're going to see it.
8 We're going to see it at this time in the
9 context of this transcript as it's going and
10 then we'll see where we are at that time
11 regarding lunch. I'm sure that everybody can
12 hang for another 20 to 30 minutes. It's only
13 12:30, and we'll go to lunch at that time.
14 Mr. Minton, sir, you may step down, I
15 will step down and we will see it and we
16 will go from there.
17 MR. HOWIE: For the record, I am
18 returning the Petitioner's Number Nine to the
19 evidence table. May I proceed?
20 THE COURT: You may proceed and this
21 will be in evidence. Is has not been marked
22 at this but it will be marked as Robert
23 Minton's Exhibit One and our court reporter
24 will not have to take this down in that it
25 will be in evidence.
. 1263
1 MR. HOWIE: Thank you.
2 (Whereupon, the videotape was played to the
3 court.)
4 MR. POPE: Your Honor, now that you've
5 had an opportunity to view that, I would move
6 to strike it truly as a self-serving,
7 propaganda piece paid for by Mr. Minton and
8 now used by him to try to establish his state
9 of mind. I mean, it just has no probative
10 value whatsoever.
11 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I take this as a
12 motion to strike an exhibit that's already
13 been entered, however, again the probative
14 value of it is to establish Mr. Minton's
15 state of mind.
16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett, do
17 you want to say something?
18 MR. MERRETT: No, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much
20 for that argument, but the motion is denied.
21 Let me get this in.
22 (Whereupon, Robert S. Minton Exhibit Number
23 was admitted into evidence.)
24 All right.
25 MR. HOWIE: May it please the court, I
. 1264
1 didn't know if the court wishes to break or
2 continue?
3 THE COURT: Let's break for lunchtime.
4 This is a good point.
5 Mr. Minton, sir, we're breaking for
6 lunch. You're still on the stand. I'm
7 going to have you put you in sort of a
8 vacuum and ask that you eat alone and don't
9 give anybody any reason to believe that
10 you're either communicating about your
11 testimony or being influenced about your
12 testimony or ask for help regarding your
13 testimony.
14 As you know, the nature of these very
15 proceedings are such that I'm trying to keep
16 this thing on a level playing field. Don't
17 do anything to disrupt it and have a good
18 lunch everybody.
19 I'll see you back, let's make it 1:45.
20 Thank you, very much.
21 Wait a minute. Mr. Minton has a
22 question. Yes, sir.
23 MR. MINTON: Should I just stay here and
24 have somebody bring me a sandwich back or?
25 THE COURT: Whatever. I mean you can
. 1265
1 certainly go outside and walk. I'm not
2 saying you've got to stay here. I just don't
3 want to see or when we come back from lunch
4 have a group of people saying there sit
5 Mr. Minton in the front or in the middle of
6 everybody with a white rose holding class or
7 something like that, you understand what I'm
8 trying to say?
9 MR. MINTON: Yes.
10 THE COURT: Okay. You make your own
11 decision.
12 MR. MINTON: Thank you.
13 (Thereupon, a lunch recess was taken, after
14 which the proceedings continued.)
15 End of Volume X
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
.
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR
PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08
----------------------------------------X
:
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE :
ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida :
corporation, :
:
Petitioner, :
:
vs. :
:
ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL., :
:
Respondents. :
----------------------------------------x
BEFORE: The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.
PLACE: Pinellas County Judicial Building
545 First Avenue North
St. Petersburg, Florida
DATE: February 19, 2001
TIME: Commencing at 1:45 P.M.
REPORTED BY: JACKIE L. OSTROM
Court Reporter
---------------------------------------------------
ORDERS TO SHOW CASE
--------------------------------------------------
Pages 1266 - 1396
Volume XI
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
P.O. BOX 35
CLEARWATER, FLORIDA
(727) 443-0992
.
APPEARANCES
The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.
CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE
F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE
JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE ET AL
911 Chestnut
Clearwater, Florida
HELENA KOBRIN, ESQUIRE
MOXON AND KOBRIN
3055 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 900
Los Angeles, California 90010
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship
Organization
JOHN MERRETT, ESQUIRE
2716 Herschel Street
Jacksonville, Florida 32205
BRUCE G. HOWIE, ESQUIRE
PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE AND WERNER
5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida 33707
Attorneys for Robert Minton and
Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc.
. 1268
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE COURT: Okay, ladies and gentlemen,
3 please be seated. Mr. Howie, sir.
4 BY MR. HOWIE:
5 Q Your Honor, continuing with Mr. Minton,
6 Mr. Minton, the tape that we saw concerning the
7 January 7 incident with you and the two Clearwater
8 police officers taken by Mr. Avila that evening, it
9 shows you on the east sidewalk of Watterson walking
10 southbound and then at one point you step out into the
11 road. Ask was your purpose in doing that?
12 A At the point where I was sort of stepping
13 into the road it was to give a ten foot semicircle
14 around these two police officers so that neither
15 myself nor they would be violating the injunction.
16 Q Now, when you step out in the road, were the
17 two officers directly on the sidewalk on the east side
18 of Watterson?
19 A They were.
20 Q And did you in fact maintain your ten foot
21 distance while you did that?
22 A I did.
23 Q Why did you think that these two officers
24 were covered by the second temporary injunction?
25 A Well, I have had extensive discussions on
. 1269
1 the matter with Mr. Merrett and, you know,
2 particularly since we were looking at people who were
3 reasonably unconnected at all to Lisa McPherson Trust
4 as being brought in under this injunction it stood to
5 complete logic that people who were actually under the
6 pay and employ take directions from the Church of
7 Scientology while they're out there, you know,
8 patrolling that 50 foot line area on the Watterson
9 would be agents of Scientology; agent or employees or
10 acting in active concert of participation with and,
11 you know, Mr. Merrett was completely in agreement with
12 that view and what had happened, you know, that
13 evening another instance as far as I was concerned
14 harassing people unnecessarily by these two police
15 officers occurred and, you know, I want to try to make
16 it clear to these guys that not only should they not
17 be harassing people, but they should be obeying the
18 injunction.
19 Q You, yourself, tried to obey the injunction
20 during that time?
21 A I certainly did.
22 Q Did you ever see or hear an order in this
23 case that off duty Clearwater police officers who were
24 working for security for the Church of Scientology
25 were specifically not covered by this injunction?
. 1270
1 A No.
2 Q All right. Now by stepping out in the
3 street to avoid the police officers, was it your
4 intent to embarrass or thwart this court in its
5 functions?
6 A Absolutely not.
7 Q While you were stepping out in the street
8 did you prevent any member of the Church of
9 Scientology or any Scientology vehicles from going by
10 you?
11 A There were no Scientology persons present in
12 the street. There were certainly buses where the
13 buses had unloaded. Buses were empty. You know,
14 there wasn't anything to impede and there was no
15 traffic on the street during that time period.
16 Q Now, concerning the buses you saw on the
17 west side of Watterson that you just reported, did you
18 see anyone trying to get on or off these buses who
19 were prevented from doing so by you stepping out to
20 the street?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you during that time, during the entire
23 episode or what you saw on the videotape, did you
24 deliberately try to get within ten feet of any Church
25 of Scientology members?
. 1271
1 A No.
2 Q Did any Church of Scientology members get
3 within ten feet of you?
4 A I think Antonio did.
5 Q That would be Antonio Avila?
6 A Right, the fellow who came out into the
7 street to video the confrontation with the police.
8 Q Now, during the time when you had to step
9 out into the street to avoid the police, were, you,
10 yourself, doing any demonstrating or picketing?
11 A No.
12 Q And during that time did you harass or do
13 violence to any member of the Church of Scientology?
14 A No, I didn't.
15 Q Now, you had an argument with the police
16 that we saw on the videotape. Did you ever get
17 arrested or charged with disorderly conduct as a
18 result of that evening?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you ever get arrested or charged with
21 obstructing or opposing a law enforcement officer that
22 evening?
23 A No, I didn't.
24 Q Did you charge or arrested for anything?
25 A No.
. 1272
1 Q Did you later have any further contact with
2 any Clearwater police officers that evening after this
3 confrontation?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q What was the nature of that contact?
6 A Well, once the, quote, discussions, unquote,
7 with the Clearwater Police Department guys had
8 finished and I headed back to the LMT, they had called
9 a Clearwater police supervisor, a lieutenant, whose
10 name I don't recall, but one which was well-known to
11 me, who came to Watterson Street and talked to the two
12 Clearwater police officers.
13 The lieutenant drove his car down the street
14 to the LMT where I was still -- you know, he was
15 really fast when he came to see the officers, it
16 didn't take much. I guess he had heard already what
17 had happened.
18 THE COURT: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me
19 ask you something, Mr. Minton. You said the
20 lieutenant appeared in the scene, right?
21 MR. MINTON: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Okay. And you don't recall
23 his name?
24 MR. MINTON: I don't.
25 THE COURT: All right. And do you have
. 1273
1 any idea who called him?
2 MR. MINTON: I don't know whether it was
3 the two officers or someone from Scientology.
4 It was obviously, logically, I believe it was
5 Scientology because the police officers were
6 too busy talking to me.
7 THE COURT: Did you see either one of
8 them in your presence --
9 MR. MINTON: No.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. MINTON: Do their little thing on
12 that thing, no.
13 THE COURT: Right, yeah. And then you
14 turned around and you started walking back to
15 the LMT building; is that right?
16 MR. MINTON: That is correct.
17 THE COURT: Now --
18 MR. MINTON: On the east sidewalk.
19 THE COURT: Okay. But, you were not
20 watching the police officers when you turned
21 around and started heading back up north,
22 were you?
23 MR. MINTON: No, I don't.
24 THE COURT: So you know if they went to
25 the microphone or whatever they call that and
. 1274
1 called for help?
2 MR. MINTON: No. Well, just again, you
3 know, I'm making an assumption here, whether
4 it's an accurate assumption or not. By the
5 time I got to the LMT within 15 feet of the
6 door, the car with the lieutenant had come
7 down there.
8 THE COURT: That brings up an
9 interesting point. From your personal
10 observations?
11 MR. MINTON: Yes.
12 THE COURT: What is the chain of command
13 with these off duty officers who are being
14 paid by an outside source?
15 MR. MINTON: Well, what I believe from
16 first observation is that they have no
17 authority to arrest anybody, that they have
18 to call Clearwater and this has been
19 repeatedly shown on a number of occasions
20 where they've had to get a police officer who
21 is not off duty to come there to deal with
22 whatever the situation is that the two
23 off-duty police officers have observed.
24 THE COURT: All right. Now, you're
25 telling me that an off-duty officer that's
. 1275
1 there at the alleyway and the white lines
2 there on Watterson.
3 MR. MINTON: Yes.
4 THE COURT: For some reason feels that
5 somebody needs to be apprehended, that they
6 have to call an on-duty Clearwater police
7 officer to come do that?
8 MR. MINTON: Well, I mean, you know, I
9 don't think that would be the case if they
10 actually saw a crime committed, but if they
11 need, you know, some peace brought for
12 example that, you know, doesn't necessarily
13 require an arrest although it could, and I
14 remember there was a fight in the restaurant
15 two doors down from our office.
16 THE COURT: On the east side of the
17 street?
18 MR. MINTON: No, on the west side, but
19 in any case, you know, the guys up at the
20 lines couldn't do anything about it. They
21 said so.
22 They said we can't do anything. We'll
23 have to get you -- we have to call downtown
24 there.
25 THE COURT: Well, let me ask you this,
. 1276
1 then. If you raised a question in their
2 minds that day, who would they be reporting
3 to or where would they -- what superior
4 officer would come to consult with them
5 regarding an issue that you might have
6 raised?
7 I mean is there an off-duty chain of
8 command or do they call the --
9 MR. MINTON: The regular command and a
10 lot of times it's the, we call it the zone
11 officer. I'm not sure but --
12 THE COURT: I don't know what they call
13 them but I know they have Clearwater
14 parcelled out in various sectors.
15 MR. MINTON: Correct. And for example,
16 I'm not sure he's a lieutenant. He might
17 have been. He was a very eloquent guy
18 explaining to Keith Henson and Tory Bezazian
19 and a couple other people in the side street
20 there, Pierce -- he's said --
21 THE COURT: Is that the video we saw
22 earlier?
23 MR. MINTON: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Now, he had on silver bars.
25 I think he was a lieutenant.
. 1277
1 MR. MINTON: Right. I believe he said
2 he was the night commander.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 MR. MINTON: Normally for that area.
5 THE COURT: Then that person came that
6 day?
7 MR. MINTON: No, it wasn't him. It was
8 somebody else. You know, the with weekend,
9 it was a Saturday so it's not always the same
10 people who are the night watch commanders on
11 any given night.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. MINTON: But, he came out there and
14 he came up to me, you know, parked the car on
15 Watterson Street and he said hello,
16 Mr. Minton. He knew me by sight and I know
17 him by sight, but I didn't remember his name
18 at that moment, and he said I hear that it's
19 kind of gotten pretty hot out here tonight
20 and he said I just wanted to check with you
21 and make sure you guys are all finished for
22 the evening and he said we'll call this quits
23 and I said we're going inside. We're all
24 finished for the evening and by that time the
25 other two officers had walked down, the two
. 1278
1 off duty officers, Correa and Harbert and I
2 said well, I can assure you that I'm finished
3 for the night and won't be back out there.
4 THE COURT: Okay. So the best of your
5 knowledge he would have been on regular duty?
6 MR. MINTON: He was on regular duty,
7 yes.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. MINTON: He police officers who are
10 not on regular duty didn't drive -- generally
11 speaking they don't drive the police cars to
12 the site anymore. They used to at the
13 beginning, but there were a number complaints
14 about that and now the only police officers
15 who come to work the off duty who bring their
16 car is canine. The guys has to keep his dog
17 in the car because he's, you know --
18 THE COURT: They have off-duty canine
19 people?
20 MR. MINTON: They do at the white line
21 sometime.
22 THE COURT: They do?
23 MR. MINTON: Yeah. Not the dogs. Te
24 dogs stay in the car. I mean, they'll take
25 them out ever now and then to take them to
. 1279
1 the bathroom, but it's just, you know, the
2 car is there because the police officer
3 apparently keeps his dog at all times with
4 him and it just stays in the car most of the
5 day.
6 I was a little nervous when this first
7 started and saw the canine dogs out there,
8 but it was just -- we were explained that
9 it's just --
10 THE COURT: That's interesting. The
11 canine Clearwater police officer that's doing
12 off duty, because he keeps the dog with him
13 at a times has to drive a cruiser with air
14 conditioning and keep it running while he's
15 get are paid to do off duty?
16 MR. MINTON: It would depend on the
17 weather. They keep it running it it's hot,
18 but when it's cool they've got all the
19 windows open.
20 THE COURT: But, they just don't have
21 the dog in his personal vehicle, private
22 vehicle, but it's in a marked cruiser for the
23 City of Clearwater?
24 MR. MINTON: Yeah, that says canine on
25 it.
. 1280
1 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
2 Mr. Howie.
3 BY MR. HOWIE:
4 Q Thank you, Your Honor. Was that the extent
5 of your contact with the lieutenant that evening that
6 you just described?
7 A It was.
8 Q I want to go back to your contact with the
9 to police officers on Watterson Street that evening.
10 Now, you would admit that you did not show a lot
11 deference to these officers in your communication with
12 them; is that correct?
13 A That is correct. I did not and, you know, I
14 recognize that that's you know, not necessarily the
15 smartest or most efficient way to try to communicate
16 to two Clearwater police who are known to be somewhat
17 difficult at times in the past in the dealings that
18 various a people in the LMT have had with them.
19 Q All right. In your communication with these
20 two officers, was it your intent to show contempt for
21 this court or obstruct this court?
22 A Not at all.
23 Q Okay. You have indicated what you thought
24 about this injunction. As a result of all of these
25 incidences, these five incidents that you've testified
. 1281
1 to, have do you continued to maintain your same
2 position concerning the second temporary injunction?
3 A Yes, but as I said earlier, you know, having
4 had some experience with it myself, you know, I think
5 there is some things that could be tweaked a little
6 bit to make it better, but, you know, even if it were
7 left as it is I would be very much inclined personally
8 to have the injunction made permanent.
9 Q Do you intend to continue to comply with
10 this injunction as long as it's in place?
11 A I do.
12 Q In any of these instances was it ever your
13 intent to show contempt to this court for its
14 injunction?
15 A For this court or its injunction, no.
16 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I don't have any
17 further questions.
18 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett,
19 sir.
20 MR. MERRETT: If I can have just a
21 second, Your Honor?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
24 place.)
25 MR. MERRETT: I don't have any
. 1282
1 questions, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pope.
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. POPE:
5 Q I'm sorry, Mr. Minton. I didn't hear what
6 your notes are that you have up there?
7 A Mr. Howie was listing the six or five
8 incidents that are still outstanding in terms of this
9 case and on the next page I wrote down questions on
10 the video out there, the names of four officers from
11 that so-called police video.
12 Q Are these notes that you wish to refer to
13 during your cross-examination?
14 A If it relates to any of the incidents, yes.
15 Q Let's start with the January 7 police
16 incident, since that's the one that you have been
17 testifying about most recently.
18 In the film that Mr. Bunker made, he
19 concluded that by stating that the Clearwater Police
20 Department has become the Scientology police force.
21 Do you remember that line?
22 A Something to that effect.
23 Q All right, and that your state of mind when
24 you were dealing with these policemen, you thought
25 that they had in effect become agents of the Church of
. 1283
1 Scientology?
2 A No, I didn't think that they had become
3 agents. I knew full well that they were agent of the
4 Church of Scientology.
5 Q Okay. That was --
6 A I read the injunction extremely carefully to
7 try to determine from our own prospective and this is
8 a fully reciprocal injunction. From our own
9 prospective that the agency acting in active concert
10 or participation with was and, you know, I was clearly
11 thinking that these guys were agents of Scientology.
12 Q And it was that knowledge that entitled you
13 and your opinion to get in their face and curse them?
14 A Well, I think if you viewed the video
15 carefully, you would see that I did everything I could
16 to avoid getting in their face. In fact, I did
17 everything I could to avoid getting within ten feet of
18 them. They came to get in my face.
19 Q And no matter who got into whose face first,
20 you did say to one, you get your fucking ass away from
21 me, correct?
22 A I did say that.
23 Q And then you said you are violating the
24 fucking injunction, asshole; correct?
25 A That is correct.
. 1284
1 Q All right. It was your belief and your
2 knowledge that these folk were agents of the
3 Scientologists that allowed you to do that?
4 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I have to
5 object for lack of predicate. By what are we
6 debarred from speaking roughly to policemen?
7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what?
8 MR. MERRETT: By what are we debarred by
9 speaking roughly to policeman? What warrants
10 are we required. There is a lack of
11 predicate for the question.
12 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I thought
13 Mr. Minton was being represented by
14 Mr. Howie.
15 THE COURT: I understand and
16 let's -- the court is two timing Mr. Pope
17 here. I understand that you have a right to
18 your respective clients, but in regards to --
19 I take it this is an objection that was more
20 of a question to the court.
21 MR. MERRETT: The objection is lack of
22 predicate to the question.
23 MR. HOWIE: To get us back on track, I
24 will raise the objection of lack of predicate
25 for this question. I'm also concerned about
. 1285
1 the relevance of this question.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope.
3 MR. POPE: I'll move on, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Thank you.
5 BY MR. POPE:
6 Q Mr. Minton, as I understand your testimony,
7 you did not inhibit anyone from entering or leaving
8 the Bank of Clearwater Building during this episode of
9 January 7; is that correct?
10 A I didn't say that.
11 Q Is that true, what I just said?
12 A I don't know whether that's true.
13 Q Okay. You don't know whether you inhibited
14 anyone from entering or leaving the Bank of Clearwater
15 Building?
16 A Well, I certainly don't know. I mean I'm
17 there and I'm dealing with the police officers,
18 Antonio is standing six to eight feet away from me.
19 There is nobody getting in and out of the buses.
20 There is no traffic coming down the street. I don't
21 know.
22 Q You're busy watching the police officers,
23 correct?
24 A Watching and talking.
25 Q All right. Now, the LMT has actually itself
. 1286
1 hired off-duty police, has it not?
2 A We have.
3 Q And you hired them to cover the press
4 conference for Ursula Caberta, correct?
5 A Yes. Principally we hired them for the
6 press conference for Ursula Caberta because several
7 Scientologists during that week came into or office
8 shouting Nazi, go home, to Ursula Caberta and we
9 certainly didn't want the press conference disrupted
10 by Scientologists in need of expressing anger at
11 Ursula Caberta.
12 THE COURT: Wait. Let me get my
13 bearings. What week are you talking about?
14 MR. MINTON: For Mrs. Caberta?
15 THE COURT: Uh-huh.
16 MR. MINTON: That would have been back
17 in July.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. MINTON: July, 2000.
20 THE COURT: Okay. And had your own
21 police force? Did you hire security?
22 MR. MINTON: We hired two off-duty
23 Clearwater Police Department people for that
24 one-day event.
25
. 1287
1 BY MR. POPE:
2 Q And Mr. Minton, you also hired some off-duty
3 police officers to bring security to a fund raiser you
4 had or the LMT at the Club More, didn't you?
5 A We did not.
6 Q You did not?
7 A No.
8 Q But at least for the Caberta matter, you
9 hired these two police officers from this Scientology
10 infected police force to offer you security; is that
11 right?
12 A We were careful about who we got.
13 Q Okay. Made sure that they weren't
14 improperly tainted police officers?
15 A Best would could.
16 Q Now, you --
17 A The Club More thing that you mentioned,
18 there were Clearwater Police Department people there
19 guarding that event. That event I might add was not
20 organized by the Lisa McPherson Trust.
21 It was local musicians in the Tampa,
22 St. Pete and Clearwater area, put on a benefit concert
23 for the Lisa McPherson Trust and covered all the
24 expenses of that concern themselves and whatever
25 proceeds of that concert that were raise were given to
. 1288
1 the Lisa McPherson Trust. We didn't pay any expenses.
2 BY MR. POPE:
3 Q Did they cover the cost of off-duty officers
4 at that event?
5 A I'm sure they did.
6 Q Okay. So somebody in connection with that
7 event paid for off-duty Clearwater police officers to
8 give them security, correct?
9 A Correct, but not the Lisa McPherson Trust.
10 THE COURT: Now, this is Club what?
11 MR. MINTON: More. Right next to the
12 police station, Your Honor. Across from it
13 there is a big parking lot and there is a
14 rock club there and it's called Club More,
15 M-O-R-E.
16 THE COURT: Is it in downtown
17 Clearwater?
18 MR. MINTON: Yes. Directly across from
19 the police department is the parking lot for
20 it and this group of musicians wanted to do a
21 benefit concert to raise money for the Lisa
22 McPherson Trust.
23 THE COURT: And to your knowledge
24 somebody hire off-duty Clearwater policemen
25 for that?
. 1289
1 MR. MINTON: Yes, they did.
2 THE COURT: And when you say off-duty
3 and you hire off-duty, are they still wearing
4 uniforms like the off-duty do that work for
5 the or at least are there out on Watterson?
6 MR. MINTON: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Let me ask you
8 something while we're talking about hiring
9 these off-duty officers and everything else.
10 What if you wanted to hire some off-duty
11 officers from the sheriff's department or
12 Florida Highway Patrol?
13 MR. MINTON: I think we could do that.
14 THE COURT: I don't know. I just
15 wondered if you had ventured into that area.
16 I just was curious.
17 MR. MINTON: We never tried it but --
18 THE COURT: Spread the wealth.
19 MR. MINTON: Yeah, I'm sure they would
20 like it.
21 THE COURT: Proceed.
22 BY MR. POPE:
23 Q Now, with regard to your documentary tape
24 that Mr. Bunker did, you heard Mr. Emmons say that he
25 heard the Scientologists call Mr. Minton every name
. 1290
1 possible and they got in your face?
2 A I did hear him say that. He just was making
3 observations from having seen some video.
4 Q And isn't that the same thing you were doing
5 to those two off-duty officer out there outside on
6 Watterson?
7 A I'd say that was pretty accurate.
8 Q Mr. Emmons is a private investigator, isn't
9 he?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And he's been paid by LMT or by you for
12 services as a private investigator, correct?
13 A Well, he's never been paid by me and I have
14 no knowledge that he's ever been paid by the LMT, but
15 he might have.
16 Q And Mr. Krotz, K-R-O-T-Z?
17 A Krotz.
18 Q Krotz, now, he's also a private
19 investigator, isn't he?
20 A He is.
21 Q Has he been paid by LMT to your knowledge?
22 A He's never been paid by LMT.
23 Q Or by you?
24 A Or by me.
25 Q These two private investigators were part of
. 1291
1 the film that Mr. Bunker made, correct?
2 A That were interviewed in it, yes.
3 Q All right. Now, these --
4 A Mr. Emmons, who has an extensive history of
5 dealing with Scientology in Clearwater, was kind of
6 critical for background element of that film and Gabe
7 Cazariz was also interviewed because of his background
8 and knowledge.
9 Q Mr. Emmons is the fellow who said he
10 investigated the Scientologists for 20 years and took
11 his work product to every state and federal agency he
12 could find and nobody would deal with it, right?
13 That's what he said, isn't it?
14 A A lot of people are afraid to deal with
15 Scientology.
16 Q Is that what he said?
17 A That's what he said.
18 Q All right. Now, these officers out there?
19 A The two in the street that night?
20 Q On Watterson, they were in their full
21 uniform, weren't they?
22 A They were.
23 Q With their badges on?
24 A They were.
25 Q With their weapons?
. 1292
1 A With their weapon, yes, sir, in full view.
2 Q All right. You indicated that you had
3 discussed the terms of this injunction with
4 Mr. Merrett, correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q But he's not your attorney, is he?
7 A Well, I discussed the terms of this
8 injunction with Mr. Howie, as well, but there was one
9 particular point sitting around the LMT one night we
10 were discussing the position of the Clearwater police
11 officers working for Scientology on those white lines.
12 Q Now, if I understood your testimony, one of
13 your purposes for going out onto Watterson that
14 evening was to make it real clear to these guys,
15 meaning the police, that they should not harass and
16 they should obey the injunction, correct?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q So you went out there to chat with them,
19 right?
20 A I think you could see what I was saying as I
21 walked by.
22 Q You were yelling through a megaphone at
23 them, weren't you?
24 A I was not. I believe if you look at the
25 video there is no megaphone in my hand at that time.
. 1293
1 Q You went out to make it clear how you
2 expected these fellows to behave, correct?
3 A You know, after they have hassled two people
4 from the Lisa McPherson Trust for some period of time,
5 you know, I thought it was time to go talk to these
6 guys and tell them as far as I'm concerned they're
7 just as much a part of this injunction as anyone else.
8 Q But in talking to them you decided that they
9 had to stay ten feet away from you because they were
10 agents of the Church of Scientology, correct?
11 A I decided I had to stay ten feet away from
12 them first. They also had an equal obligation which
13 they paid no attention to, to stay away from me.
14 Q And the lieutenant who came to you?
15 A Yes.
16 Q He basically said to you he just wanted to
17 be sure you're finished for the night?
18 A He said, he said I understand things got a
19 little hot out here this evening and I just wanted to
20 make sure you guys were all finished for the night.
21 Q So, notwithstanding you having stood right
22 in the face of two of his subordinates and cursed
23 them, all he said to you was, from this biased police
24 department was, I just wanted to be sure you are
25 finished for the night and he didn't arrest you?
. 1294
1 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Assumes facts
2 not in evidence. There is no any evidence
3 that this is a biased police force.
4 MR. POPE: Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Thank you. Thank you.
6 Thank you. Thank you. Let's move right
7 along here. I've understood the testimony,
8 the allegations and the statements that not
9 all of them are.
10 Now, just a minute while we've got this
11 little break, again. What were the names of
12 the officers that you had that little thing
13 with?
14 MR. MINTON: Harbert, who was one of the
15 ones who testified up here on the stand, and
16 Correa. Jim, I think was his name, but I
17 only heard that here in the courtroom, so I
18 don't know. I'm not sure. C-O-R-R-E-A, I
19 believe it was. And Harbert is spelled I
20 think, how it sounds.
21 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead,
22 Mr. Pope.
23 BY MR. POPE:
24 Q Mr. Minton, you stated in no uncertain
25 terms, that you had no intent whatsoever to show
. 1295
1 contempt for the court, correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q But would you understand if a reasonable
4 person watching that video might thing that you were
5 showing a lot of contempt for those officers out on
6 the street?
7 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, objection.
8 Irrelevant.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I would join
11 the objection in view fact of the fact that
12 there is no such lawful charge such as
13 contempt for the police.
14 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What did you
15 say?
16 MR. MERRETT: There is no lawful charge
17 for contempt of the police, which is the
18 question he's asking. You weren't in
19 contempt of the court, but you were in
20 contempt of the cops.
21 THE COURT: Well, I understand that and
22 let's move right along here, thank you.
23 MR. POPE: May I just respond. In
24 Paragraph 11, the last one in your injunction
25 says any sworn law enforcement officer may
. 1296
1 assist in the execution or service of this
2 injunction.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, being the author
4 of those very eloquent words, I'm aware that
5 that's there. Thank you.
6 BY MR. POPE:
7 Q Thank you. Mr. Minton, let's go back.
8 We're just going to run down these one at a time as
9 you did. Let's go to the camera episode.
10 A Yes.
11 Q You and Mr. Merrett both got up and touched
12 it and moved it, correct?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q And you had a group of people watching you
15 do this that I believe included Mr. Ward, Mr. Prince,
16 Mr Keller, Ms. Bennett and Mr. Oliver, correct?
17 A I believe they were all there.
18 THE COURT: Now, I want to be sure the
19 camera, we're talking about the spy camera
20 now?
21 MR. POPE: The so-called spy camera.
22 THE COURT: The so-called spy camera
23 incident?
24 MR. POPE: Right.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
. 1297
1 BY MR. POPE:
2 Q So, what was the purpose of all of those
3 folks, those five additional folks plus you and
4 Mr. Merrett, in gathering around the ladder there to
5 examine this camera?
6 A You know, I believe only Mr. Merrett and
7 myself are still in any way implicated in that
8 incident.
9 Q What was the purpose of those other folks
10 being there. Why did they tag along with you?
11 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Irrelevant. The
12 court has already granted a JOA as to the
13 individuals.
14 MR. POPE: Your Honor, it doesn't have
15 to do with --
16 THE COURT: I understand. I understand,
17 that just because I decided that they don't
18 fall under maybe contempt of the injunction
19 there may be another purpose or something
20 else.
21 He has a right to inquire. Let's
22 proceed. I'm not going to go back.
23 MR. POPE: I'm not going to ask you to.
24 THE COURT: I think I have res judicata.
25 BY MR. POPE:
. 1298
1 Q Mr. Minton, why did the other five people
2 feel that they had to come out and tag along with you
3 for the camera examination?
4 A Well, to be really honest with you,
5 Mr. Pope, I don't know. I know that I would not have
6 been there had it not been for the fact that John
7 Merrett asked me to come out there.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, you said
9 something that intrigues me. I know we've
10 got degrees of honesty here. Now, you said
11 you were going to be really honest. Does
12 that mean that's a little more honest than
13 what you've been?
14 MR. MINTON: No, no, no. I'm mean I'm
15 telling the whole truth and nothing but the
16 truth so help me God.
17 THE COURT: Okay. I just get a little
18 bit nervous when these people say well, I'm
19 going to be honest on this one and I thought
20 you have been under oath all along.
21 MR. MINTON: Yeah. Like I said, I just,
22 you know, I don't know why anybody went out
23 there other than me. From my own
24 prospective, I went out there because John
25 Merrett asked me to. I knew where the ladder
. 1299
1 was upstairs and nobody else did that's how I
2 got involved.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. POPE:
5 Q Now. Mr. Minton, you remember that right
6 next to the ladder there that you had placed out there
7 is one of the entranceways to the Bank of Clearwater
8 Building, correct?
9 A There is one close by there, yes.
10 Q In fact, you moved the ladder even a little
11 bit closer to it so you could get over on one side and
12 take a different angle shot; is that correct?
13 A Correct. Yes. After we finished taking the
14 north side of the camera we moved the camera little
15 bit to take a picture of the south side of it.
16 Q And as I understand it you and Mr. Merrett,
17 together with this additional group of five people, it
18 added up to about seven folks, did not inhibit anyone
19 from entering or leaving the Bank of Clearwater
20 incident right next to your ladder as you understand
21 it?
22 A No. Well, let me just explain something.
23 No Scientologists go north from that point. They are
24 prohibited by Scientologist from traveling north on
25 that sidewalk. So as I had stated in my earlier
. 1300
1 testimony, when I was up on that later I saw the bread
2 delivery going on. You know, and I saw it going on is
3 I saw it going in and out, bread going in and out. It
4 wasn't coming out, but the cart was coming out and
5 getting more bread and going back in so, you know,
6 there was never any question of blocking anything.
7 Q Okay. And did you notice at the time that
8 that door got closed?
9 A Well, the first think I noticed about the
10 door in the video is that the door was closed at the
11 beginning when we first put the ladder up. It opens
12 after we've got the ladder up and the bread delivery
13 starts and the bread delivery continues and the bread
14 delivery finishes.
15 Q But, I want to be sure of your testimony.
16 Neither you or Mr. Merrett or the other five people
17 inhibited anyone from entering or leaving the Bank of
18 Clearwater Building through that door while you were
19 there fooling with the camera. That's true, isn't it?
20 A Absolutely not. I mean it is true that we
21 didn't inhibit anybody.
22 Q Okay.
23 A We absolutely did not inhibit anybody.
24 Q All right. Now, with regards to this box
25 that had the cameras in it, I was a little confused
. 1301
1 about your testimony. You're not contending that that
2 box was fastened to what we now know as the rat bait
3 building?
4 A No, it wasn't fastened. It was totally
5 moveable way from rat bat building.
6 Q It was fastened to the Bank of Clearwater,
7 wasn't it?
8 A Part was not. Part was and part was not.
9 Q It would swivel. There was a fastener on it
10 and it would swivel back and forth, correct?
11 A There was a fastener on it?
12 Q Something was holding it up, correct?
13 A Well, I could attempt to try to draw it.
14 THE COURT: Let's do this. Would you
15 step down and to the best of your ability to
16 answer his questions and let's have an
17 artist's rendition of this because I'm
18 totally confused with what's going on here
19 too.
20 MR. POPE: Your Honor, my sole question
21 was which building is it fastened to.
22 THE COURT: Well, maybe we'll get an
23 answer this way. Let's see what happens.
24 Mr. Minton.
25 MR. MINTON: Yes.
. 1302
1 THE COURT: Please bring it around so
2 everybody can see. I'll get off the bench
3 and go down.
4 MR. MINTON: The conduit for the camera
5 is running down -- first of all, Your Honor,
6 if you would just remember here that this
7 wall here between the two buildings there, it
8 sticks out approximately -- well, roughly six
9 inches.
10 THE COURT: One building sticks out a
11 little bit further than the other.
12 MR. MINTON: The Clearwater Bank
13 Building is recessed, yes.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. MINTON: And on the Clearwater Bank
16 Building there is a conduit which I'll try to
17 draw in a darker line here and which goes
18 down in that corner. It is attached to the
19 Clearwater Bank Building and then at some
20 point it has a loop and where that -- it's a
21 little bit more of a bend than this, but
22 where that bend is there is a little -- it's
23 like a tripod.
24 If you're familiar with a tripod, there
25 is a thing that you can move and back and
. 1303
1 forth there and it lets you rotate the
2 tripod all around.
3 Well, by touching anywhere on this
4 junction box you could move it out here, you
5 can move it all the way over to here,
6 because it freely rotated at this U-turn
7 here or 45 degree turn because there is a
8 bracket here. It's not attached to anything
9 at that moment in time.
10 THE COURT: Which building is that
11 bracket attached to?
12 MR. MINTON: It's free folding between
13 the rat bait building and the Scientology
14 building.
15 THE COURT: Somewhere it's got to be
16 tied down.
17 MR. MINTON: It is. All the way along
18 this Scientology building. It's just when
19 the bracket --
20 THE COURT: Oh, I see.
21 MR. MINTON: The bracket has to come up
22 six inches, so --
23 THE COURT: So, that heavy black line
24 you've drawn there is affixed to the Bank of
25 Clearwater Building.
. 1304
1 MR. MINTON: Right.
2 THE COURT: So they have it on a little
3 goose neck or something so that it sticks
4 out, whatever that is for they the depth of
5 that building so if you see around the
6 building, down towards your front door.
7 MR. MINTON: Correct.
8 THE COURT: That's your allegation?
9 MR. MINTON: That's right. You know,
10 when it comes from the bank building it's got
11 to come out a few inches and then go around
12 the corner to point in this direction.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. MINTON: So, it's where that
15 junction is that freely moves. It moved for
16 Mr. Merrett the same way it moved for me.
17 THE COURT: I see.
18 MR. MINTON: With nothing breaking.
19 THE COURT: Now, that bigger camera
20 that's up there above it about a foot or so
21 that looks like it is a --
22 MR. MINTON: It's one of their normal
23 security cameras.
24 THE COURT: Looking to the south of
25 across there to the bread door and that way.
. 1305
1 MR. MINTON: Correct.
2 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
3 MR. MINTON: That's all I can add,
4 really.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Pope.
6 MR. POPE: I have no further questions
7 about this, Your Honor about this.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, do me a favor
9 and put your initials on the lower right-hand
10 corner of that and put todays date on it.
11 Thank you. Mr. Pope, you may proceed.
12 BY MR. POPE:
13 Q Mr. Minton, you weren't very pleased about
14 this camera box being trained on the LMT, were you?
15 A I think it's fair to say that anybody would
16 find it intrusive.
17 Q Right. This going up here and taking the
18 picture and bringing the folks out was one of your
19 forms of protesting it, wasn't it?
20 A Absolutely not. It was Ms. Brooks' idea to
21 bring in the court. The fact that Scientology, by use
22 these of these cameras is not only harassing us but
23 it's also harassing the clients of the LMT who walk in
24 our door, who get contacted by the Church of
25 Scientology, either directly or through their spouse
. 1306
1 who are still in Scientology, to get after them in one
2 way for their connection with LMT.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, hold on just a
4 minute. Let me get my notes here.
5 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
6 place.)
7 Okay. Got it. Thank you, sir.
8 BY MR. POPE:
9 Q Mr. Minton, let's turn our attention to
10 the --
11 THE COURT: Hold on just a minute.
12 MR. MINTON: There was actually another
13 phrase I was going to add to the end of that.
14 THE COURT: Go ahead.
15 MR. MINTON: Just to add here. You see,
16 by the intrusive nature to the people that
17 are coming to see us is that statistically
18 only 1 in 80 people who are in Scientology
19 stay in Scientology and Scientology tries
20 extremely hard to keep anyone from leaving.
21 And, you know, once people come to see us and
22 they get followed, they get telephoned.
23 Their husbands are contacted or the wife
24 is contacted, you know, it's really a bad
25 situation for them because immediately their
. 1307
1 family, their other family member who is
2 still is Scientology begins to be forced
3 into disconnection from these people or try
4 to first bring them back into Scientology.
5 BY MR. POPE:
6 Q I gather, Mr. Minton, that you would have no
7 sympathy at all or understanding that the
8 Scientologists might be concerned to keep tabs on a
9 group that comes to town from out of town with the
10 expressed purpose to expose the abusive and deceptive
11 practice of the Church of Scientology?
12 You wouldn't think that they were have any
13 interest at all in security or keeping tabs on your
14 comings and goings with that announced philosophy?
15 A Well, what I really think about it is that
16 they shouldn't have any abusive or deceptive practices
17 and then we wouldn't have to be there to watch them.
18 Q Let's go to the service of process issue,
19 Mr. Minton. That, as I recall, your first observation
20 was that you come within ten feet of me you guys are
21 going to get killed, correct? Something about --
22 A That's correct.
23 Q As I understand that, what that meant was,
24 you weren't going to kill these folks, the court was
25 going to do it?
. 1308
1 A Absolutely.
2 Q So the person who heard that statement
3 needed to understand that you were talking only
4 metaphorically and that these people would be hauled
5 before the court and metaphorically killed by the
6 court, correct?
7 A Well, she certainly pursued me. She didn't
8 start running the other way.
9 Q And you did know, did you not, on January 5,
10 that this interpretation of this that applied to the
11 ten foot rule and process servers had been clarified
12 by the court five weeks earlier?
13 A I had absolutely no idea of that, Mr. Pope.
14 Mr. Howie had are never told me about it. Mr. Merrett
15 never told me about it. Ms. Brooks never told me
16 about it. And I'm only saying Ms. Brooks because she
17 might have known about it.
18 Q So five weeks after that order you just
19 don't even know about it?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Okay.
22 A The last I heard, you know, when I left
23 Clearwater was John Merrett was chasing a process
24 server out of a restaurant. I never heard anything
25 about any change after that.
. 1309
1 Q And as a matter of fact, Mr. Minton, you did
2 not attend the several days of hearings that produced
3 injunction number two, did you?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Okay. Well, did you learn about that right
6 away, Injunction Number Two?
7 A I arrived in Clearwater the day that the
8 injunction was signed and, yes, I did, because
9 Mr. Howie gave my copy of the injunction to me -- to
10 Mr. Merrett to bring back to the LMT for me.
11 Q So you got here on the first, was it?
12 A I believe it was the first.
13 Q All right. And you knew about the
14 injunction entered the previous day, but you didn't
15 know about the change --
16 A No, sorry. I got here on the 30th.
17 Q Okay.
18 A I got here the day that was signed.
19 Q So you knew about the injunction but you
20 didn't know about the order clarifying it that was
21 issued the next day?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q All right. Now, you described Ms. Colton, I
24 believe, as a nasty process server; is that right?
25 A I think I described her as a nasty PI.
. 1310
1 Q Okay.
2 A I do not know hearsay basically what she has
3 done inside of LMT which has been nasty.
4 Q Isn't it the case, Mr. Minton, that when she
5 identified herself as a process server that you had
6 the option of just standing there and taking the
7 process peaceably?
8 A I could have done that.
9 Q All right. And what you did was when you
10 got the papers or they were thrust into the LMT door,
11 you picked them up, wadded them, brought them out,
12 threw them down to the sidewalk, correct?
13 A I didn't wad them up.
14 Q You just threw them down?
15 A I picked them up and threw them.
16 Q And you never did know what was served on
17 that day, did you?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q Never did go out and pick them up?
20 A That is correct. I believe the Scientology
21 spy camera would probably show that sometime later
22 that day Jesse Prince swept them up and threw them in
23 the garbage can.
24 Q Do you understand, Mr. Minton, that a resort
25 to courts and process is what our society is
. 1311
1 established to resolve disputes in lieu of bloodshed?
2 A I do.
3 Q All right. Let's move our attention to
4 January 6, focus for a minute of the Penick Picket
5 Pole which is also called the Threep.
6 A Correct.
7 Q Is that what you described, Mr. Minton, in
8 your testimony as an impressive piece of workmanship?
9 A Yes, it is.
10 Q Okay. And as a tool to help enforce the
11 injunction?
12 A That's right.
13 Q Now, you knew, did you not, that the
14 injunction said stay ten feet back from the
15 entranceways from the Coachman parking lot, didn't
16 you?
17 A That's right.
18 Q And yet somehow that ten foot pole didn't
19 prevent you from getting right in the middle of that
20 entranceway, did it?
21 A Well, going from one side to the other
22 you've got to go through the middle.
23 Q All right. And you and Mr. Lerma,
24 Ms. Gogolla, Mr. Enerson and I believe Mr. Merrett was
25 along with you went right through that, correct?
. 1312
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q All right. And the honking of the horn, the
3 yelling, the dangling of the copy of the injunction,
4 the reference to it as a Penick Picket Pole, all of
5 those were just part of your efforts to respect and
6 abide by the injunction; is that correct?
7 A Well, first of all, I never referred to it
8 out on the streets anywhere as the Penick Picket Pole.
9 Q Did you hear what I said? All of these
10 things I just described were just part of your efforts
11 to respect and abide by the injunction?
12 A I think that by looking at all the incidents
13 here that I have gone out of my way to do everything I
14 can to abide by the injunction and respect the
15 injunction. I stated so, not only on the internet,
16 but privately to people and publicly to groups of
17 people that I thought that having this injunction in
18 place would be a very, very effective tool to stop
19 principally from our prospective, Scientology
20 harassment.
21 Q Now, when you left the Coachman Building
22 area later on on January 6, you were walking north on
23 Watterson, correct, going back to the LMT?
24 A Right.
25 Q And you were carrying the Penick Picket Pole
. 1313
1 at the time, correct?
2 A At this time I was always referring to it as
3 the Threep, but, yes, it was named in honor of Judge
4 Penick, just like Picket Chicken was named in honor of
5 Judge Penick and I was proud to wear a Picket Chicken
6 T-shirt.
7 Q And the other with you had the megaphones,
8 correct?
9 A Yes, that's correct.
10 Q So you've got the Penick Picket Pole and
11 they've got the megaphones and you're going north on
12 Watterson on the east side, correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q You're going back to the LMT?
15 A Right.
16 Q And before you get to the LMT for some
17 reason you cross over the street, get right up next to
18 the Bank of Clearwater Building and put the Penick
19 Picket Pole up so that the injunction is dangling
20 along side the second sorry windows of the buildings,
21 in correct?
22 A Well, I saw the video and it is, yes.
23 Q And mean --
24 A And I'm moving while that's happening.
25 Q And meanwhile, the folks across the way are
. 1314
1 yelling through their megaphones, this, that, the
2 other, about the Scientologists, correct?
3 A Well, they're still at the white line. I'm
4 going back. I'm finished, but, yes.
5 Q They were yelling?
6 A They were. They had at least one megaphone
7 because I gave the megaphone I previously had back to
8 Arnie Lerma. So they had one or two megaphones.
9 Q Wouldn't you agree that that hanging --
10 doing the picket pole up there and dangling it along
11 the second story windows while the folks across the
12 way yell and whoop about the Scientologists is a
13 demonstration or an exercise of your First Amendment
14 rights?
15 A No, I didn't think that at all.
16 Q You didn't think that?
17 A No. I mean, I was finished. The thing that
18 was in -- you didn't see me along the way, you know,
19 slide my arm in a forward direction to get the Penick
20 Picket Pole at its maximum extended point. It was
21 just that it was the maximum length and it turned it
22 up.
23 Q Weren't you doing a little bit of yelling
24 along at the same time that the folks were yelling
25 through the megaphones?
. 1315
1 A I'd be happy to look through that video with
2 you, but don't think that I was saying anything at
3 that time.
4 THE COURT: Let's go back and get that
5 video and crank it up.
6 MR. POPE: Where is it?
7 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, would you please
8 help Mr. Pope put that video back up there
9 and let's all take a look at it.
10 Tell you what we'll do. We'll take us a
11 little ten minute break here and get that
12 all set up and come back and take a look at
13 it.
14 (A short recess took place after which the
15 proceedings continued.)
16 THE COURT: Do we have the tape in?
17 MR. POPE: I believe it's ready, Your
18 Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Minton, you take
20 that chair out there and I'll move down there
21 and let's put in that tape in let's just take
22 a look at what where talking about here.
23 (Whereupon, the videotape was played to the
24 court.)
25 THE COURT: Okay.
. 1316
1 BY MR. POPE:
2 Q Mr. Minton, I thought I heard somebody on
3 there yelling Render, Render, no 0Ts here and it
4 sounded like your voice to me. Was that you?
5 A It didn't sound like my voice to me. It
6 sounded like Arnie Lerma's.
7 Q Okay. Somebody was protesting, correct?
8 A Absolutely.
9 Q All right. Now, Mr. Minton, you are the
10 founder and chairman of the board of Lisa McPherson
11 Trust, Incorporated, correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And could you -- when was that founded?
14 What year were you incorporated?
15 A Late 1999, I believe.
16 Q So it's been in existence for a little over
17 a year?
18 A Correct.
19 Q In that one-year period how much money have
20 you personally put into it?
21 MR. MERRETT: Objection. Relevance.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Howie.
23 MR. HOWIE: We object on the grounds of
24 relevance, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Mr Pope?
. 1317
1 MR. POPE: It goes to the whole bias,
2 prejudice, Your Honor.
3 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, we've already
4 established Mr. Minton has a very strong
5 opposition to the Church of Scientology
6 through the corporation. I hardly see how
7 there is any additional probative value.
8 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I would only
9 stipulate that we get to put on Mr. Shaw and
10 find out how many millions of dollars
11 Scientology has raked in over a similar
12 period to establish that bias and prejudice
13 and we may be able proceed.
14 MR. POPE: Your Honor, that was entirely
15 uncalled for and I move to strike it.
16 THE COURT: Struck. Now, I think it's
17 well established that Mr. Minton has funded
18 this or said he established it. I don't know
19 when I say funded where that stands today.
20 But, I'll let him answer this one question
21 and then we'll move on. I'm not going to get
22 in the final nuances of this line.
23 BY MR. POPE:
24 Q Mr. Minton, in round numbers, how much money
25 had you infused into LMT, Incorporated from the date
. 1318
1 of incorporation to date?
2 A Probably about 1.3 million.
3 Q Now, Mr. Minton, you said during your
4 testimony that Scientologists were trying to persuaded
5 Scott Brower who is the CPA who sold you 33 North
6 Ft. Harrison, not to have anything to do with you
7 because you were terrible people. Do you remember
8 saying that?
9 A I heard them say it myself.
10 Q Okay. Isn't that exactly what you're
11 telling people about Scientology?
12 A I've got a little brochure right out here
13 somewhere that will tell you exactly what I'm telling
14 you about Scientology and that's not it.
15 MR. POPE: Okay. That's all I have,
16 Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett.
18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. MERRETT:
20 Q Briefly, Your Honor. Mr. Minton, on the
21 December 4 incident with the camera, isn't it true
22 that from the entire time during which the ladder was
23 moved south of the camera, there was a policeman there
24 watching and supervising the whole operation?
25 A That is correct.
. 1319
1 Q And that the policeman who somebody swore on
2 Scientology's behalf told you to leave?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q That policeman never told anybody to leave,
5 right?
6 A Nor did he grab my leg and pull me off the
7 ladder.
8 Q Okay. Now, can you give the judge an idea
9 as you talked about 1.3 million dollars for the Lisa
10 McPherson Trust, can you tell the court how much it
11 cost one person to find out about Xenu and the space
12 cooties, approximately?
13 A Well, less than a tenth of a cent.
14 Q Well, I mean to find out through
15 Scientology? It's over a-quarter-of-a-million
16 dollars, isn't it?
17 A Well, keep in mind, Mr. Merrett, that is it
18 the Xenu story, the Xenu and the space aliens which is
19 part of the Scientology cosmology. It's something
20 that I personally find to be a very rich part of the
21 tapestry of religious beliefs in this country.
22 However, there are certain things about those beliefs
23 that Scientology has where they lie to people and
24 deceive people into paying $360,000 --
25 MR. POPE: Your Honor --
. 1320
1 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, hold on. Hold
2 on. Hold on.
3 MR. POPE: We're getting back into the
4 old let's put the Scientologist's beliefs on
5 trial business.
6 MR. MERRETT: I'll restate the question,
7 Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
9 BY MR. MERRETT:
10 Q What's the ticket for the total package when
11 you go in Scientology up through approximately OT7 or
12 whatever is presently available, how much do they
13 charge a person for that?
14 MR. POPE: Objection. What in the world
15 does that have to do with anything in this
16 witness' cross-examination? It's totally
17 irrelevant.
18 It's designed to poke around in the
19 beliefs and practices of the Scientologists,
20 an issue that is beside the point.
21 MR. MERRETT: Well, I will stipulate
22 that money is at the very heart of
23 Scientology's beliefs and practices. The
24 relevance was raised by Mr. Pope's suggestion
25 to the court that --
. 1321
1 THE COURT: He can answer. Let's move
2 on.
3 BY MR. MERRETT:
4 Q About $350,000 a head, right?
5 A Not quite. If you have money, they'll take
6 more money, but $360,000 is sort of a minimum ticket,
7 unless you join the Sea Org for a billion years and
8 then they'll let you get most of your services for
9 free, but you'll never get to these high OT levels.
10 MR. MERRETT: Thank you. I don't have
11 anything further.
12 MR. HOWIE: I have no further questions,
13 Your Honor.
14 MR. POPE: Nothing further, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Sir, you may step down.
16 Hold on. Hold to. You want to ask another
17 question? I saw him rush up there and hand
18 you that and I figured that --
19 MR. POPE: I do want to ask another
20 question, but it's not the one he handed me.
21 THE COURT: Well, all right. Go ahead.
22 Ask the question.
23 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. POPE:
25 Q Mr. Merrett asked you if the police officer
. 1322
1 was watching and supervising. Was this police officer
2 supervising you out there?
3 A I guess supervising might be the wrong word.
4 What he said, which I said earlier was you don't mind
5 if I stand here and watch while you guys finish up.
6 That could be supervising, observing.
7 Q Did you invoke the provisions of the ten
8 foot rule and tell him to get away to a distance of
9 ten feet?
10 A No, I didn't.
11 MR. POPE: Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. MERRETT: Briefly, Your Honor?
13 THE COURT: You may.
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. MERRETT:
16 Q Twelve foot ladder, right?
17 A Correct.
18 MR. MERRETT: Nothing further.
19 MR. MINTON: And he's a very nice police
20 officer.
21 MR. HOWIE: No further questions.
22 THE COURT: You may step down, sir.
23 MR. MINTON: Thank you.
24 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, at this time
25 Robert Minton would rest.
. 1323
1 THE COURT: All right Mr. Pope, you have
2 some rebuttal witnesses?
3 MR. POPE: I have three rebuttal
4 witnesses, rather brief rebuttal witnesses.
5 THE COURT: Are you ready? Are they
6 here?
7 MR. POPE: We're ready. Lindsey Colton
8 is the one.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Bring her in, please.
10 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I ask that
11 there be a proffer as to testimony to be
12 offered by each of these witnesses do ensure
13 that what we're not doing is filling in holes
14 in Scientology's case in chief as opposed to
15 dealing with new matters raised in the
16 defense case.
17 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I'm under no
18 obligation to do that. If he doesn't like
19 it, he can object as we move along.
20 THE COURT: Let's go, Mr. Pope. Is she
21 here?
22 MR. POPE: Your Honor, you directed that
23 Ms. Colton testify.
24 THE COURT: I know that. Hold on just a
25 minute. I know. Here she comes.
. 1324
1 She's been previously sworn. I'm going
2 to continue her under that oath and bring
3 her forward, please. Let's do rebuttal
4 first.
5 MR. POPE: Your Honor, actually it's
6 rebuttal relative to the issue you raised.
7 THE COURT: Well, go for it.
8 MR. POPE: Okay.
9 THE COURT: Let's get into it.
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. POPE:
12 Q Tell us your name, please?
13 A Lindsey Colton.
14 Q Your occupation, Ms. Colton?
15 A I'm a private investigator and a process
16 server.
17 Q And bring your attention to January 5, 2001,
18 your efforts to serve process on Mr. Minton outside
19 the LMT.
20 A Okay.
21 Q Were you there?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Now, you served upon him on that day how
24 many different packages of process?
25 A Well, it was one at attempt, one turn, but I
. 1325
1 had eight different documents for county court,
2 circuit court and I had two subpoenas for federal
3 court so it was two different issues, to different
4 types the process.
5 Q Two different courts?
6 A Correct.
7 Q All right. I want to show you two documents
8 entitled subpoena in a civil case. May I, Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
10 BY MR. POPE:
11 Q And ask you to identify those.
12 A Yes.
13 Q What are?
14 A These are two subpoenas in district court
15 that I had served on Mr. Minton.
16 Q Now, are those the originals?
17 A They are and they're initialled and dated
18 and timed by me.
19 Q Now, why would you not file those in this
20 court?
21 A Because this case isn't relevant in this
22 court. It is a different district, different type of
23 court case.
24 Q What date and time did you serve those on
25 Mr. Minton?
. 1326
1 MR. HOWIE: Objection, Your Honor. This
2 is irrelevant. The court has no jurisdiction
3 over these subpoenas nor does the court have
4 jurisdiction to punish issue for any action
5 that was taken in relation to these
6 subpoenas.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, we've already had
8 some testimony and we got into some of
9 Ms. Colton's prior sworn statements. And
10 this is absolutely relevant and let's
11 proceed.
12 MS. COLTON: The dates is January 5,
13 2001 at 4:15 PM.
14 MR. POPE: All right. May I? I offer
15 these into evidence, Your Honor, as a
16 composite exhibit.
17 THE COURT: All right, January 5 at what
18 time?
19 MR. POPE: 4:15 PM.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I'm not sure what
21 number that will be. That will be your
22 exhibit --
23 MR. POPE: I've lost track, Your Honor.
24 MS. KOBRIN: 18.
25 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Hand me that
. 1327
1 just a minute. Mr. Pope, my only concern,
2 the reason I'm hesitating a minute, you want
3 to put copies of this in the state -- these
4 look like originals.
5 MR. POPE: They are.
6 THE COURT: Aren't these supposed to be
7 in the federal file.
8 MR. POPE: You don't file subpoenas in
9 federal court unless there is an issue about
10 them in that court and the date for these
11 depositions have passed, that's why I offered
12 the original, but I will substitute copies.
13 THE COURT: All right. I'd rather see
14 you do that. Bear with me a minute.
15 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 18 was
16 admitted into evidence.)
17 THE COURT: All right. Please proceed.
18 BY MR. POPE:
19 Q Now, Ms. Colton, let me show you another
20 return on service in this case and for the benefit of
21 counsel, I have served copies of this on them earlier.
22 This is the only copy I happen to have. It's also in
23 the court file. Ms. Colton would you look at that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What is that?
. 1328
1 A This is my return of service for the
2 additional documents that I served on Mr. Minton on
3 that day.
4 Q Along with the federal subpoenas?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And do you have an Attachment A to this?
7 A Yes, I do.
8 Q And that lists the documents you served?
9 A Yes, it does.
10 MR. POPE: May I offer this in evidence,
11 Your Honor?
12 THE COURT: You can. That will be 19.
13 The original of this is in the court file let
14 the record so reflect. Bear with me, please.
15 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 19 was
16 admitted into evidence.)
17 That's in evidence.
18 MR. POPE: I have no further questions
19 of this witness.
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. HOWIE:
22 Q May it please the court, ma'am, you do
23 understand that these subpoenas are federal subpoenas,
24 correct?
25 A Correct.
. 1329
1 Q All right. And that they have nothing to do
2 with this particular case; you understand that, don't
3 you?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And in fact when you served a bunch of
6 papers on Mr. Minton to January 5, all these papers
7 were intermingled together, correct?
8 A No, the subpoenas were on top and the other
9 items were on the bottom because I had them on a
10 bulldog clip. Because of the some of the papers I had
11 a clip on them.
12 Q All right. Now. For purposes of
13 clarification, you filed with this court a return of
14 service, correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And as part of that return of service you
17 attached an exhibit?
18 A Correct.
19 Q And that exhibit listed documents that
20 pertained only to this case, correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q All right. And you did not list these
23 subpoenas because these subpoenas don't pertain to
24 this case?
25 A Yes.
. 1330
1 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I don't have any
2 further questions.
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. MERRETT:
5 Q Now, as I understand it, anybody can serve a
6 subpoena, anybody who is not a party or interested in
7 an action, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And the sheriff is required for state cases,
10 like the ones for that are listed on that link to your
11 return of service, the sheriff is required to serve
12 everything except initial unenforceable civil process,
13 correct?
14 A He is required to serve enforceable process.
15 Q Right. Everything except initial,
16 unenforceable service of process?
17 A Right.
18 Q I want you run through that list and tell me
19 what those documents are?
20 MR. POPE: Excuse me. Your Honor.
21 Mr. Merrett, this testimony goes only to
22 Mr. Minton. She has been cross-examined by
23 Mr. Minton's counsel and Mr. Merrett has no
24 standing to get another bite at the apple if
25 this testimony doesn't relate to any of his
. 1331
1 client.
2 MR. MERRETT: Well, that was certainly
3 surly enough, But I believe I'm entitled to
4 cross-examine the witness.
5 THE COURT: All along I've given
6 everybody an ample opportunity for
7 cross-examination in this case and I'm going
8 to allow him to proceed with this. And I'm
9 going to hand her the Exhibit 19, which is
10 right here which has that attachment to it
11 and I'll hand it to you, okay.
12 BY MR. MERRETT:
13 Q If you would look there and tell me which of
14 this is initial process, first?
15 (Whereupon, documents were reviewed.)
16 Or subpoenas, either one?
17 MR. POPE: Your Honor, it hasn't been
18 established that this witness knows the
19 difference between initial process and any
20 other form of process. He needs to lay a
21 proper predicate.
22 MR. MERRETT: I'm satisfied with the
23 stipulation, Judge, she doesn't know her job.
24 I have no other questions.
25 THE COURT: Take the paperwork back.
. 1332
1 Now, hold on.
2 Ma'am, in this case I'm going to hand
3 you a document which is Circuit Court which
4 is case 99-7430-CI-8 and let me hand you
5 this document and see if you recognize it
6 and see if your signature is on that
7 document?
8 (Whereupon, documents were reviewed.)
9 MS. COLTON: Yes.
10 THE COURT: All right, now what is that
11 document?
12 MS. COLTON: That is an affidavit that I
13 wrote up at after I served Mr. Minton.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Now, that's an
15 affidavit; is that correct?
16 MS. COLTON: Yes.
17 THE COURT: And whose signature is on
18 that affidavit?
19 MS. COLTON: My signature.
20 THE COURT: What is an affidavit?
21 MS. COLTON: An affidavit is a statement
22 of facts, true facts.
23 THE COURT: True facts.
24 MS. COLTON: Correct.
25 THE COURT: Is it under oath?
. 1333
1 MS. COLTON: Yes.
2 THE COURT: I see. All right. And read
3 that to, us please, if you would. Just take
4 your time and read it slowly out loud?
5 MS. COLTON: Lindsey Colton, being first
6 duly sworn declares and states: Number one,
7 I am over the age of 18 and I am a licensed
8 Florida private investigator, I have personal
9 knowledge of the facts set forth below if
10 called upon to do so could testify
11 competently thereto.
12 Number two, on January 5, 2001 I was
13 attending to the service of Robert Minton.
14 I was on the Watterson Avenue just south of
15 the Lisa McPherson Trust when Mr. Minton
16 pulled up in a car. As I approached,
17 Mr. Minton saw me from his rear view mirror.
18 Mr. Minton got out of the car and he as he
19 was doing so yelled, listen, you come within
20 ten feet of me you guys are going on get
21 killed. I informed Mr. Minton that I had
22 process for him, a subpoena for deposition.
23 Mr. Minton ran into the building saying get
24 the fuck out of here.
25 The copy is not clear. I think number
. 1334
1 four says Mr. Minton attempted to close the
2 door while it was still open about five
3 inches --
4 THE COURT: Hold on just a minute. I'm
5 sorry, I shouldn't do that to you.
6 Here. That is a bad copy. Here is the
7 original.
8 Go ahead and go to the second page of
9 that.
10 MS. COLTON: Thank you. Number four,
11 Mr. Minton attempted to close the door while
12 it was still open about five inches. I
13 managed to throw the papers into in the LMT
14 before the door closed completely.
15 Mr. Minton picked up the papers and came
16 back out of the doors saying you better get
17 your ass out of here lady and walked away
18 from the door and stated he has been served.
19 Mr. Minton again yelled you better get your
20 ass out of here.
21 Number five, as I was walking away,
22 Mr. Minton threw the papers towards me and
23 they scattered on the ground.
24 Number six, a true and correct copy of
25 the video which contains truly and
. 1335
1 accurately reflects these events is attached
2 to the January 9, 2001 affidavit event as
3 Exhibit A. Lindsey Colton.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Now, you filed that
5 here in the state court case, right.
6 MS. COLTON: Right.
7 THE COURT: Okay. And in there you're
8 talking about serving some subpoenas for
9 depositions?
10 MS. COLTON: Yes.
11 THE COURT: Okay, would you file that in
12 a state court case?
13 MS. COLTON: Okay. The reason I filed
14 the affidavit was my opening statement to
15 Mr. Minton was that I had the subpoenas. The
16 subpoenas were date sensitive meaning that
17 they had to appear certain times that was
18 close, so whatever I have process of, I give
19 the date sensitive process first or address
20 the date sensitive process.
21 My affidavit was to show that while I
22 served him he made those statements his me.
23 I had other documents, too. but he
24 interrupted me at the time that I announced
25 who I was and what I was serving him with.
. 1336
1 THE COURT: Okay, but when you file a
2 document in the state court file, where do
3 you think that document is going to wind up?
4 MS. COLTON: In the state file, I guess.
5 THE COURT: Okay. In front of a state
6 court judge or a federal judge?
7 MS. COLTON: State court judge.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, what do you
9 think is a little more important to a state
10 court judge, what you're serving in the state
11 court case or federal case?
12 MS. COLTON: The state case.
13 THE COURT: Why did you make reference
14 to the subpoenas in there? They don't have
15 anything to do with me?
16 MS. COLTON: Correct.
17 THE COURT: Now, when are you telling
18 the truth? Are you telling the truth now or
19 were you telling the truth then or are you
20 just totally confused? Should I just
21 disregard everything you've said in this
22 court so far?
23 MS. COLTON: I was telling the truth
24 then and I'm telling the truth now.
25 THE COURT: How do I believe you?
. 1337
1 MS. COLTON: I served him subpoenas and
2 I served him eight other documents.
3 THE COURT: But that doesn't say that --
4 MS. COLTON: But those --
5 THE COURT: Ma'am, I'm asking the
6 questions.
7 MS. COLTON: Okay.
8 THE COURT: That doesn't say that, does
9 it?
10 MS. COLTON: I also file that return of
11 service which listed those other documents
12 that I did serve.
13 THE COURT: Are you trying to mislead
14 me?
15 MS. COLTON: No.
16 THE COURT: Ms. Colton, I find it very
17 suspect that you would in an affidavit
18 addressed to a state judge, state in there
19 that you're serving subpoenas. That may be a
20 fact, but that has no bearing on my case and
21 quite frankly, so that you understand the
22 ramifications and the seriousness of what
23 you've done is that in a state court case,
24 subpoenas you serve on the attorney. You
25 don't have to chase somebody up and down
. 1338
1 Watterson Avenue.
2 This man was represented by an attorney
3 of record, whereas the other documents you
4 served you certainly had a right to chase
5 him up and down Watterson Avenue. And you
6 need to pay a little closer attention to the
7 people that are paying your check or you
8 need to go back and again and look at the
9 law and see what you're doing when you go
10 out there on the street. Do you have any
11 questions about what I just said to you?
12 MS. COLTON: No, I don't.
13 THE COURT: Mr. Pope.
14 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I wanted to point
15 out that the purpose of her affidavit was to
16 recite what she had said to Mr. Minton. What
17 she said to you in testimony was I started to
18 say she had federal subpoenas and a whole
19 package of other.
20 She started to say subpoenas and then he
21 interrupted her. The function of that
22 affidavit was merely to say this is what she
23 said to him, not to mislead the court.
24 I mean she had federal and state things
25 she was trying to serve at the same time.
. 1339
1 She filed that affidavit then recites what
2 she said. The federal subpoenas she
3 wouldn't file in here because it's not in
4 this case, but she did file the return on
5 service and I filed a compendium of return
6 on service and I don't believe that this
7 woman has done anything to try to mislead
8 the court at all. This is just a
9 misunderstanding.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, I appreciate your
11 stand on the issue.
12 MR. POPE: Thank.
13 THE COURT: You may step down as far as
14 I'm concerned. Mr. Pope, call your next
15 witness.
16 MR. POPE: Call Barbro Wennberg.
17 THE COURT: Is she here?
18 MR. POPE: She's in the jury room. Your
19 Honor.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, let's take a
21 little break. I want to see the attorneys in
22 my chambers.
23 (Thereupon, the following proceedings were
24 had out of the presence of the audience:)
25 The reason I asked you all to come in
. 1340
1 here was after I finished with Ms. Colton
2 and she went back and sat down, I assume
3 that was her husband she went and sat down
4 by.
5 MR. POPE: I believe it is, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: And there was a lady sitting
7 in the row if front of her, had on a red
8 jacket I believe. She -- as Ms. Colton went
9 by it seemed to me there was some eye contact
10 and nodding and everything and Ms. Colton
11 went and sat down and this lady jumped up and
12 rushed out of the courtroom and threw the
13 door open very dramatically, went charging
14 got in a elevator and when she got in she
15 kept looking in the courtroom and everything
16 and I got some feeling that this lady was on
17 a mission or something on behalf of Colton
18 and the Church. I'd like to know her name.
19 MR. POPE: I don't know who you're
20 talking about, judge. Do you? I don't
21 really --
22 THE COURT: She had been sitting there
23 with Avila and that other young man
24 throughout all these proceedings.
25 MR. POPE: Young girl?
. 1341
1 THE COURT: Uh-huh.
2 MR. POPE: Tall?
3 THE COURT: Fairly tall, long black
4 hair.
5 MR. POPE: What's is her name. I don't
6 even know her name. I mean I'm watching
7 what's going on at the bench and not the
8 audience.
9 THE COURT: I know you are but I'd like
10 that information.
11 MS. KOBRIN: Can I tell you what I
12 suspect was going on?
13 THE COURT: Uh-huh.
14 MS. KOBRIN: The next witness I believe
15 was waiting upstairs in the library and it
16 was someone had probably told her to go get
17 the witness as soon as Ms. Colton was done
18 and --
19 THE COURT: I didn't see anybody.
20 MS. KOBRIN: No, I mean somebody
21 probably instructed her in advance that when
22 Ms. Colton was finished she should get the
23 next witness down.
24 THE COURT: Who was up there?
25 MR. POPE: Uh-huh.
. 1342
1 THE COURT: That's why I asked.
2 MS. KOBRIN: She was up in the library
3 and I thing she went up to get her to come
4 down so that she could --
5 THE COURT: That was my first reaction
6 and that's why I asked Mr. Pope where's your
7 witness.
8 MR. POPE: Right.
9 THE COURT: And he said in the room,
10 then I thought that takes care of that.
11 MR. POPE: She was apparently in the --
12 she was upstairs reading in the library.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. POPE: Putting her time to good use.
15 THE COURT: Well, commend her for that.
16 MR. POPE: I believe that is right
17 because I told them that she would be after
18 Ms. Colton finished that they should get the
19 other witness.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. POPE: That's what that's all about.
22 THE COURT: All right. Let's see if we
23 got her and we'll, you know, grab that next
24 witness and get going. I just get a little
25 concerned when see -- okay. Let's pick it
. 1343
1 up.
2 (Thereupon, the sidebar conference was
3 concluded and the following proceedings were had
4 in the audience:)
5 MR. POPE: Mr. Pope, call your next
6 witness, please.
7 THE COURT: Barbro Wennberg.
8 Thereupon:
9 BARBRO WENNBERG
10 was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, was
11 examined and testified as follows:
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 THE COURT: Come forward and have a seat
14 in the chair, please.
15 BY MR. POPE:
16 Q Would you tell us your name, please?
17 A Barbro Wennberg.
18 Q Would you spell your name?
19 A B-A-R B--R-O W-E-N-N-B-E-R-G?
20 Q So it's Barbro Wennberg?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What is your occupation?
23 A I'm a Deputy Chief Steward for QI.
24 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Deputy Chief?
25 THE WITNESS: Steward, a steward.
. 1344
1 BY MR. POPE:
2 Q And QI stands for what?
3 A Quality Inn.
4 Q And this a building located where?
5 A By US 19. That's where the children are
6 located.
7 Q Okay. What children?
8 A The child of the CO members.
9 Q Of the --
10 A Of the staff.
11 Q Okay, of the Church of Scientology?
12 A Uh-huh.
13 Q What does the Deputy Chief Steward do?
14 A Feed and serve the crew and the children at
15 the Quality Inn.
16 Q Okay. Now in connection with what do, you
17 have to travel between there and the Bank of
18 Clearwater Building?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Why do you do that?
21 A To transport food.
22 Q All right. Now, you pick it up there?
23 A I pick it up at the Clearwater Bank
24 Building, yes.
25 Q Okay. Now, I want to call your attention to
. 1345
1 the date of December 4, 2000, late morning. Where
2 were you at that time?
3 A Inside the Clearwater Bank Building.
4 Q Did it come to your attention during that
5 time that there was some sort of commotion outside
6 relative to a camera?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And what did you -- what did you do -- what
9 observations did you make?
10 A Well, I was about to go out the door where
11 the loading dock, so it's called is, and peeked out
12 the door and I saw there was --
13 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I'm going to
14 object at this point. This is not rebuttal.
15 They had an opportunity to present their case
16 in chief and to present the testimony of
17 anyone who claimed to have been inhibited by
18 the activities on the fourth and failed to do
19 so and they're now attempting to patch that
20 up.
21 This is not in rebuttal in any new
22 matter raised on any defensive case and that
23 is the sole purpose of rebuttal evidence.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Howie.
25 MR. HOWIE: I join in that, Your Honor.
. 1346
1 The issue of the whether anyone was inhibited
2 from entering or exiting the building was an
3 essential element and allegation in this case
4 and nothing was presented in support of that
5 and this comes too late.
6 MR. POPE: Your Honor, Mr. Minton flatly
7 testified that he had not interfered at all
8 in ingress or egress at that doorway when
9 they were having this little camera set to
10 and this is in rebuttal of that.
11 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, there is a
12 difference between preventing ingress and
13 egress and inhibition which may be a
14 subjective determination by person without
15 the knowledge of another person in the area.
16 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, if I may
17 briefly go on the procedural point which
18 underlies the objection, the problem is not
19 that is or it is not resolved by the fact
20 that it deals with the same subject matter.
21 The purpose of rebuttal is to address new
22 matters which were raised on the defense case
23 which were not raised and could not have been
24 anticipated in the initial case in chief.
25 What we have here is again, this woman
. 1347
1 working for Scientology in the C-Org for the
2 last hundred years or however long. She was
3 available as a witness in the case in chief.
4 If this is relevant now it was relevant
5 then. This is an attempt to plug a hole in
6 the case in chief. This is not rebuttal.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Pope.
8 MR. POPE: Your Honor, if I didn't prove
9 it, why did they get up and so adamantly
10 insist that they not done this. I mean
11 they're the ones that got up and testified
12 that, oh, we didn't interfere at all with
13 anyone going in or out of that building.
14 THE COURT: Gentlemen, thank you very
15 much. Mr. Pope, proceed.
16 BY MR. POPE:
17 Q Thank you. I believe you indicated you
18 looked out?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What did you see?
21 A I saw a group of people and I saw Mr. Minton
22 standing on the ladder taking photographs of the
23 camera we have on the corner of the building.
24 Q Now, how is that you were able to recognize
25 Mr. Minton?
. 1348
1 A He has been pointed out to me before.
2 Q Now, at the time you did this what knowledge
3 did you have of the existence of a court injunction
4 relative to Mr. Minton and his folks and the Church of
5 Scientology?
6 A Because the staff in general has been
7 informed about that.
8 Q What did you know about it?
9 A That we have to stay away ten feet from
10 them.
11 Q All right. And what did you do then when
12 you saw Mr. Minton and his people out under that
13 camera?
14 A I went back inside.
15 Q Why?
16 A Because they were too close to me. I
17 couldn't go out.
18 Q Let me show you what has been marked as
19 Plaintiff's Exhibit Seven which I believe you have up
20 there, Your Honor, which is this photograph. Can you
21 tell us what is Plaintiff Exhibit Seven?
22 A Well, that door there is the door I go in
23 every day, three times a day.
24 THE COURT: Hold on just a second.
25 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
. 1349
1 place.)
2 Okay, let's proceed.
3 MR. POPE: I have no further questions,
4 Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: All right. Let's do this.
6 Mr. Merrett.
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. MERRETT:
9 Q Ma'am, when you looked out -- is it the
10 double doors that you looked out?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Okay. You looked out the double doors,
13 correct?
14 A Yes, the purpose of going out.
15 Q And when you looked out the double door
16 Mr. Minton was already on top of the ladder, correct?
17 A Not on the top of it. He was standing half
18 way down.
19 Q Did he move up or down the ladder while you
20 were looking?
21 A No.
22 Q He was stopped half way up the ladder?
23 A Uh-huh.
24 Q What was he doing?
25 A Taking photographs.
. 1350
1 Q So he took the photographs from half way up
2 the ladder?
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q What else did you see?
5 A I saw you.
6 Q Okay. What was I wearing?
7 A A hat; that's what I remember.
8 Q Okay. If all I was wearing was a hat that
9 must have made quite an impression. Do you remember
10 anything else I was wearing?
11 A Some dark outfit. I don't know what else.
12 Q A hat and dark outfit. What else did you
13 see?
14 A A policeman.
15 Q Okay. Hear anybody say anything during this
16 time?
17 A No, there was general conversation, but I
18 wasn't there long enough to hear what was said.
19 Q Okay. Now, there's a phone box to the left
20 of the double doors?
21 A Yeah.
22 Q Okay. And were these doors open or closed
23 when you approached them from the inside?
24 A Closed.
25 Q Okay. Which door did you open?
. 1351
1 A The one that's to the right.
2 Q This one?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q Okay. How far did you open it?
5 A All the way.
6 Q Okay. If you're looking down from the roof,
7 if this was the roof line, how far back does the
8 door -- if this door -- does it open 90 degrees or
9 180 degrees? How far did you open it?
10 A Almost all the way. I don't know.
11 Q Well, is all the way 90 degree? Does it
12 stick our across the sidewalk or is all the way folded
13 back against the wall?
14 A No, not folded. 90 degrees, yes.
15 Q Okay, so you opened it about to there?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q Did you open the other door at all, this
18 door?
19 A No. That one is permanently locked more or
20 less.
21 Q Okay. All right. And how wide is this
22 door, the one that opened?
23 A Two-and-half feet maybe.
24 Q Did you step out of the doorway when you
25 opened the door or did you remain inside the building?
. 1352
1 A Um, a foot or two. I don't remember
2 exactly.
3 Q So you stepped one to two feet out of the
4 door, correct?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q Okay. Tell the court, if you would, the
7 words that you used to announce your presence?
8 A What do you mean by that?
9 Q How did you tell Mr. Minton and the other
10 people there that you were in the doorway and you
11 needed to come out?
12 A I did not tell them.
13 Q Okay. Of course having stepped only a foot
14 or two out -- oh, is there any kind of a physical mark
15 on your face that tells people you're a Scientologist?
16 Is there?
17 A No, not as far as I know.
18 Q Okay. You stepped a foot or two out along
19 the door that extended two-and-a-half feet and you
20 didn't say anything, correct?
21 A Right.
22 Q Okay. And then you did what; you went back
23 in and closed the door?
24 A Yeah.
25 Q Okay. Now, your testimony is -- well, when
. 1353
1 did you first discuss this with anybody?
2 A Yesterday.
3 Q And who did you talk to, Mr. Shaw first?
4 A The lawyers.
5 Q Okay. Which lawyers?
6 A Wally and Mrs. Kobrin.
7 THE COURT: Who? I'm sorry, I missed
8 the first name.
9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Pope and Mrs. Kobrin.
10 THE COURT: And this was yesterday,
11 Sunday?
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Yes?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Okay. And you were
16 looking -- when this view that you had here
17 where that telephone is?
18 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
19 THE COURT: That's looking -- you're
20 inside the building looking out?
21 MR. MERRETT: No, sir, that would be on
22 the outside.
23 THE WITNESS: That's on the outside.
24 THE COURT: Okay. That's the telephone
25 there?
. 1354
1 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Okay.
3 BY MR. MERRETT:
4 Q So sometime yesterday afternoon somebody
5 came and asked you if you had been inside the building
6 on December 4?
7 A What do you mean by that? Asked me if I had
8 been inside the building?
9 Q Yes. Was that the first time that you had
10 been asked about what had happened on December 4?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Okay. What else happened on December 4?
13 A I don't know. Particularly, I don't know
14 what you mean by that. The specific thing they're
15 discussing here is this incident, so that's what I'm
16 talking about.
17 Q Right. I understand that. Tell me what
18 else happened that day?
19 A Well, before I came there I parked my car
20 down the road.
21 Q Where did you park you car?
22 A What?
23 Q Where did you park you car?
24 A Further down, it's some 10, 15, 20 feet
25 down.
. 1355
1 Q Okay. What was it you were driving that
2 day?
3 A A van, white van.
4 Q The white van that you usually drive?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q So you parked the white van down here
7 somewhere, right?
8 A Uh-huh.
9 Q And how many meals were you picking up?
10 A Three.
11 Q Meals for three people?
12 A No, three meals per day.
13 Q For how many people were you picking up
14 meals at that point?
15 A Approximately 200 people.
16 Q Okay.
17 THE COURT: You talking about 200 meals?
18 THE WITNESS: 200 people, yeah.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. MERRETT:
21 Q December 4 was a Wednesday, right?
22 A No, it was a Monday.
23 Q It was a Monday, okay. What time did you
24 arrive at the Clearwater Bank Building on Monday?
25 A About 11:30.
. 1356
1 Q Okay. And what did you do when you first
2 got there?
3 A I went in the building in the side door.
4 Q Which side door?
5 A The one that goes directly into the building
6 near the dining room.
7 Q So you entered through the room, the door
8 down here?
9 A Uh-huh.
10 Q And that was because that door was closer to
11 your van, right?
12 A Yeah.
13 Q Ordinarily you park your van by the double
14 doors and you come and go through the double doors?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Okay. So, the closest way for you to get
17 back in the van would have been through the door down
18 here, right?
19 A Yeah.
20 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have
21 anything further.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Howie?
23 CROSS-EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. HOWIE:
25 Q May it please The Court, ma'am, you said
. 1357
1 that you first discussed this with the attorneys
2 Mr. Pope and Mrs. Kobrin just yesterday for the first
3 time, correct?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q Have you had an opportunity to -- did you
6 discuss it with them at all at any previous time?
7 A No.
8 Q Okay. Did you have an opportunity to see
9 the videotape of this incident?
10 A Yes.
11 Q To the best of your knowledge do you appear
12 anywhere on that video?
13 A No.
14 THE COURT: When did you see the video?
15 THE WITNESS: Yesterday.
16 THE COURT: Yesterday, okay. How may
17 times did you look at it?
18 THE WITNESS: One.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. HOWIE:
21 Q You never saw the video before yesterday?
22 A No.
23 Q Now, you said that you saw Mr. Minton up on
24 the ladder taking pictures?
25 A Uh-huh.
. 1358
1 Q How do you know he was taking pictures?
2 A Well, he was directing a camera to us, our
3 camera, so I assumed he was taking pictures.
4 Q And he had the camera up to his face?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q And was he looking in the direction of the
7 camera mounted on the wall?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q And this is the altitude and position you
10 saw him in when you say you stepped out a foot or two
11 and you looked and you saw him?
12 A Uh-huh. Yes.
13 Q And how long did you stand there an watch
14 him?
15 A One to two seconds.
16 Q During that one to two seconds all you saw
17 him do was have the camera to his face as he took
18 pictures or appeared to take pictures of the camera on
19 the wall?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And so during that entire time he never
22 acknowledged your presence, did he?
23 A No.
24 Q And as far as you know he never saw you, did
25 he?
. 1359
1 A Probably not.
2 Q Was there a bread delivery coming in and out
3 of that door at the time or coming into that door at
4 the time?
5 A No.
6 Q You didn't see a bread delivery?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you see anybody with handcarts and large
9 plastic cartons bringing items in through the door or
10 out the door during this time?
11 A Not that I recall. I didn't see motion
12 through the doors at the time certainly.
13 Q What is immediately inside that double door?
14 What is the room back there? Can you describe what it
15 is?
16 A It's like a loading dock. It has crates and
17 storage space.
18 Q So, it's basically a storage room just
19 inside these double doors, correct?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q Now what was your function in that
22 particular room? What were you doing?
23 A Well, I use that room to load and unload
24 things into the van and out of the van.
25 THE COURT: You had to do this all by
. 1360
1 yourself?
2 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
3 THE COURT: 200 meals you had you pick
4 up and put in that van?
5 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
6 THE COURT: You don't get any help from
7 anybody?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, if I need to.
9 THE COURT: What?
10 THE WITNESS: If I need to, sir.
11 THE COURT: Do you usually get help or
12 do you ask for help or --
13 THE WITNESS: Sometimes.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MR. HOWIE:
16 Q Now, in taking 200 meals by yourself, were
17 you using this door to take the 200 meals out?
18 A Yes.
19 Q How many trips do you have to take out of
20 that door in order to put 200 meals in your van?
21 A About three, sometimes four trips.
22 Q And what do you use in order to take these
23 meals outside that door to your van?
24 A I use handcarts with wheels.
25 Q Do you load up the handcarts yourself?
. 1361
1 A Yes.
2 Q Were you in the process of taking a load on
3 a handcart out at the time you came to the doors as
4 you described?
5 A No, I was on my way out to get the van to
6 move it up so I could unload the van.
7 Q And the van was parked further south on
8 Waterson?
9 A Uh-huh.
10 Q And you use this door to go to the van?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q You say you didn't see a bread delivery. Do
13 you have any responsibility to accept deliveries at
14 this particular building?
15 A No.
16 Q You say you discussed this for the first
17 time yesterday with the lawyers. Prior to yesterday
18 who did you discuss it with?
19 A The two lawyers, Mr. Pope and Mrs. Kobrin.
20 Q No, I mean before yesterday who did you
21 discuss it with?
22 A Nobody.
23 Q You hadn't told anybody about this prior to
24 yesterday?
25 A No.
. 1362
1 THE COURT: How did they find you
2 yesterday? Where were you yesterday when you
3 first knew about this?
4 THE WITNESS: I was at the Quality Inn.
5 THE COURT: Okay. And you knew nothing
6 about these court proceedings then.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 THE COURT: And yesterday at the Quality
9 Inn at about what time of the day was the
10 first time somebody contacted you regarding
11 this incident.
12 THE WITNESS: Yesterday.
13 THE COURT: Uh-huh, which has 24 hours;
14 which hour?
15 THE WITNESS: Um, let's see. I knew I
16 had to be here. I knew I had to see them. I
17 didn't know specifically for what.
18 THE COURT: Who told you you had to see
19 them?
20 THE WITNESS: Someone from OSA. I can't
21 remember who it was.
22 THE COURT: When did they tell you that
23 you had to see them?
24 THE WITNESS: Yesterday morning.
25 THE COURT: Yesterday morning?
. 1363
1 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
2 THE COURT: Okay. What time; early
3 morning, mid morning, close to noon?
4 THE WITNESS: Close to noon.
5 THE COURT: How do you know that? What
6 are you referencing it to?
7 THE WITNESS: Joyce came and told me.
8 THE COURT: Who is Joyce?
9 THE WITNESS: Sitting over there.
10 THE COURT: What's she wearing? Tell me
11 was she's wearing?
12 THE WITNESS: She's wearing a blue
13 jacket and a turquoise tie.
14 THE COURT: Okay, and she came and told
15 you that the lawyers were going to be seeing
16 you?
17 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
18 THE COURT: She tell you about what?
19 THE WITNESS: She told me briefly that
20 it was about something having to do with a
21 violation of this ten feet rule.
22 THE COURT: Okay. What's the ten foot
23 rule?
24 THE WITNESS: That we can't be within
25 ten feet of each other.
. 1364
1 THE COURT: You and you say each other?
2 THE WITNESS: Meaning the other group.
3 THE COURT: Okay. All right. And how
4 did Joyce know that you would have any
5 knowledge whatsoever about a camera and a
6 ladder?
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
8 THE COURT: You don't have a clue?
9 THE WITNESS: The only thing I can think
10 of is Antonio told who was out there.
11 THE COURT: Is Antonio here today?
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I seen him.
13 THE COURT: Where is he? Take a look
14 around the courtroom.
15 THE WITNESS: He's over there.
16 THE COURT: Where is over there?
17 THE WITNESS: There.
18 THE COURT: Okay. You're pointing to --
19 describe what he's wearing.
20 THE WITNESS: He has a brown suit and a
21 dark brown shirt.
22 THE COURT: Okay. And he's the one
23 sitting in front of the man back there with
24 the blue shirt?
25 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
. 1365
1 THE COURT: Okay. All right. And tell
2 me about Antonio. What is it he said to you.
3 THE WITNESS: When?
4 THE COURT: Well, you're trying to tell
5 me that the first you knew about a camera and
6 a ladder was something to do with Antonio?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, I know about this
8 incident that it happened because Antonio was
9 right in front of me when I stepped out of
10 the building so I knew he was there.
11 THE COURT: You saw Antonio there?
12 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
13 THE COURT: What was Antonio doing
14 there?
15 THE WITNESS: Filming.
16 THE COURT: Filming?
17 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
18 THE COURT: Did you speak to Antonio on
19 that day?
20 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Did Antonio tell you
22 to get back in the building?
23 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall.
24 THE COURT: Did Antonio tell you there
25 was any danger around?
. 1366
1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Did you talk to
3 Antonio after that day about anything?
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 THE COURT: Okay. The only thing -- had
6 you seen Antonio since that day?
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I seen him
8 regularly. He patrols. He's outside that
9 building.
10 THE COURT: That's sort of his beat, so
11 to speak?
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
13 THE COURT: Okay. And you didn't speak
14 to him about the ladder or the camera or
15 anything other than that day you saw him
16 outside there filming?
17 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
18 THE COURT: Okay. All right. All
19 right. Then Joyce told you that the lawyers
20 were going to come see you and she didn't
21 really tell you much about why they were
22 coming?
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 THE COURT: Okay. So when did they come
25 see you? What time?
. 1367
1 THE WITNESS: Last night.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Now, when you say
3 night, was it dark outside?
4 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
5 place.)
6 Are you okay?
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
8 THE COURT: You're turning red. You're
9 turning real red here. You're beginning to
10 make me nervous. I don't have any smelling
11 salts so just calm down. You're all right.
12 Just answer my questions, okay. You okay?
13 You want a break?
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to
17 remember when exactly.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Take your time. Do
19 you know, was it dark outside when they came
20 to see you?
21 THE WITNESS: I saw Wally first in the
22 late afternoon and then I saw Helena late at
23 that night.
24 THE COURT: Okay. So you saw -- I take
25 it id you saw Helena at night, you had to
. 1368
1 have seen Mr. Pope in the daytime maybe?
2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, late afternoon,
3 yeah.
4 THE COURT: Okay. And how long did your
5 conversation with him last?
6 THE WITNESS: 45 minutes, approximately.
7 THE COURT: Okay. What did you talk
8 about?
9 THE WITNESS: This -- what occurred that
10 day.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Then you saw Helena
12 later?
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
14 THE COURT: She came to see you or you
15 went downtown to see her?
16 THE WITNESS: No, I was still in the
17 building so I saw her. I came up to see her
18 in her office.
19 THE COURT: Is downtown Clearwater?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 THE COURT: In the hotel building, the
22 big building?
23 THE WITNESS: No, in the Clearwater Bank
24 Building.
25 THE COURT: All right. Her office is in
. 1369
1 that building?
2 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
3 THE COURT: Okay. And how long did you
4 talk with her?
5 THE WITNESS: Half-an-hour.
6 THE COURT: All right. That was the
7 first time anybody contacted you regarding
8 whether you were able to go out with those
9 meals or not on that particular day? In
10 other words, that's the first time anybody at
11 all talked to you about your not being able
12 to go outside with the meals?
13 THE WITNESS: That was -- I don't
14 understand the question.
15 THE COURT: Okay. You're telling me
16 that because these people had a ladder and
17 they up on the ladder, okay?
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
19 THE COURT: That you, because of that,
20 could not go outside with those meals?
21 THE WITNESS: Right.
22 THE COURT: Okay. When was the first
23 time that you talked to anybody about that?
24 THE WITNESS: Yesterday.
25 THE COURT: Okay. All right. And how
. 1370
1 long did you have to wait before you ventured
2 outside or you looked out again to try to get
3 those meals to the children?
4 THE WITNESS: 20 minutes, approximately.
5 THE COURT: So the meals for the
6 children were at least 20 minutes late on
7 that day?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know that they
9 were late. I don't remember how late or if I
10 was late.
11 THE COURT: But your timetable was
12 interrupted?
13 THE WITNESS: Right.
14 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. Were
15 they hot meals?
16 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
17 THE COURT: Did you have some sort of
18 means to keep them warm for that additional
19 20 minutes?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, I have the food in
21 hot boxes.
22 THE COURT: Put in hot boxes?
23 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
24 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
25 THE WITNESS: But there is a danger any
. 1371
1 time I add on it always --
2 THE COURT: Spoilage or something like
3 that?
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it's a health
5 hazard.
6 THE COURT: I understand. okay. That's
7 a good point. All right. You don't recall
8 what those meals were that day, do you?
9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 THE COURT: It wasn't spaghetti?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 THE COURT: Hot dogs?
13 THE WITNESS: No, I don't remember.
14 THE COURT: Something the kids would
15 like though, right?
16 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Hopefully.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. Do you
18 remember what the dessert was?
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 THE COURT: Okay. All right. You say
21 that Antonio Avila normally -- that's his
22 area where he patrols. When you saw him that
23 day it was normal for him to be there?
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It's not normal for
25 him to be right outside my door, as I call
. 1372
1 it, but he's normally farther down the
2 street.
3 THE COURT: Okay. You call that your
4 door?
5 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
6 THE COURT: All right. Do you know
7 Annie Getto?
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 THE COURT: You don't know her at all?
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 THE COURT: Name doesn't mean anything
12 to you?
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Well, gentlemen, I'll
15 let you inquire. Mr. Pope?
16 MR. POPE: No further questions, Your
17 Honor.
18 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I'm still im the
19 midst of my cross.
20 THE COURT: You may continue. I'm
21 sorry, sir.
22 BY MR. HOWIE:
23 Q That's all right. Ma'am, you say you
24 recognized Mr. Minton while he was on the ladder?
25 A Uh-huh.
. 1373
1 Q Did he have his back to you?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q So --
4 A But also he had his face -- I think he was
5 talking to the gentleman right behind you there, so he
6 was facing you now going little bit back and forth the
7 one or two seconds I saw him.
8 Q You said that you waited 20 minutes before
9 venturing out again. How did you spend that 20
10 minutes?
11 A Um, hanging around and figuring out
12 something else I could do.
13 Q Didn't you make any inquiry of anybody else
14 about whether the people outside were gone?
15 A I don't know who to inquiry to. There is
16 nobody to inquiry to.
17 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I don't have any
18 further questions.
19 THE COURT: Now, in light of the
20 question that I asked, I have to give all
21 attorneys a chance. Mr. Pope, let me do
22 this. I'll come to from this direction.
23 Mr. Merrett, sir?
24
25
. 1374
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. MERRETT:
3 Q What was it that made you decide that 20
4 minutes was long enough to wait?
5 A I don't know. I just figured it would be
6 over by that time because it seemed to be an involved
7 discussion going on out there.
8 Q You didn't talk to anybody between the time
9 that you say you opened that door and stuck your head
10 out and 20 minutes later, did you?
11 A No.
12 Q Okay. And when you opened that door Antonio
13 Avila was standing directly outside?
14 A Somewhere. I don't know exactly, but he was
15 standing a little bit further down, I suppose.
16 Q Further down meaning what?
17 A Away from my sight. If I go out the door he
18 was a little bit to the right.
19 Q But he was within the opening of the door,
20 right?
21 A No, I don't think so. I think he was
22 slightly further down.
23 Q Okay. And he didn't say anything to you,
24 right?
25 A Not that I recall.
. 1375
1 Q Okay.
2 A If he said anything it would have been a
3 comment because I was very quick. I was just looking
4 seeing what's going on and then I closed the door.
5 Q Now, you testified that you were already
6 aware at that time of the ten foot rule, correct?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q You knew that that prohibited you from
9 coming within ten feet of the people associated with
10 the Trust, correct?
11 A Right.
12 Q And you would have been violating that order
13 if you walked out that door, right?
14 A Right.
15 Q Okay. But you wouldn't have been violating
16 that order if you had walked out the door that you
17 went in further south on Waterson Street, right?
18 A That's right.
19 Q Okay.
20 A But it wouldn't have made any difference
21 because you was -- my intention of going out there was
22 to drive the van up so I could do my job.
23 Q So, at that point you were not actually
24 trying to move food, you were trying to drive the van,
25 right?
. 1376
1 A Yeah.
2 Q And the door closest to the van was a door
3 down the block, not the door up here?
4 A Uh-huh.
5 Q Okay. And the door that you had gone in is
6 more than ten feet away from where Mr. Minton and I
7 were, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q There was nothing to stop you from going to
10 that door and looking up the street to determine
11 whether or not the way was clear, correct?
12 A I suppose.
13 Q And you didn't do that, did you?
14 A No.
15 Q Now, you mentioned feeding the children.
16 Those meals also go to people who are on the RPF,
17 correct?
18 A Yeah.
19 Q That's the Rehabilitation Project Force,
20 correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q That's the disciplinary unit with the
23 Church, correct?
24 A It's a rehabilitation project.
25 Q Right, which is where people who make ethics
. 1377
1 violations and they're working their way back into the
2 good graces, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Okay. So you were also carrying food to the
5 prison camp, right?
6 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor.
7 That's just the kind of cheap shot --
8 THE COURT: Okay. I understand, and
9 Mr. Merrett, please, now look --
10 MR. MERRETT: I'll lay the predicate,
11 Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Would you because we've got
13 a new term here. We've got -- this has got a
14 new wrinkle. You've just brought something
15 else out. What's this all about?
16 BY MR. MERRETT:
17 Q People on RPF, the Rehabilitation Project
18 Force, are not free to leave or come and go, correct?
19 MR. POPE: Objection --
20 BY MR. MERRETT:
21 Q -- have to get permission. Right?
22 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor.
23 Totally outside the scope of anything you or
24 I or Mr. Howie asked. He wants to get into
25 making a slam on the Scientologists'
. 1378
1 practices. This doesn't have anything to do
2 with the main point which was, you know, was
3 the --
4 THE COURT: Mr. Pope.
5 MR. POPE: -- blocked or not.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, first I was
7 convinced that we were taking these meals to
8 some children out at the Quality inn and that
9 got my attention as far as timing and food
10 for children.
11 Now, you're telling me this and the
12 thing I'm concerned about is a timing issue
13 or something else. I don't know what this
14 is about and criticality of the delay for
15 this lady when she was trying to get out,
16 that's all I'm trying to see is what is she
17 was unduly delayed here which would have a
18 bearing on your client's needs. Okay, so
19 let's proceed.
20 BY MR. MERRETT:
21 Q The RPF is an assignment that people get
22 when they've committed ethics violations, correct?
23 A Okay.
24 Q Okay. And that involves wearing distinctive
25 clothing, correct?
. 1379
1 A No.
2 Q Okay. That involves assignments to menial
3 work, correct?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q Okay. That involves having your movements
6 and your affairs regulated by superiors within the
7 hierarchy of the Church, correct?
8 A I don't know how to answer that.
9 Q You don't know how to answer that, okay.
10 Your meals are determined by the Church, correct, what
11 it is that you're going to eat?
12 A Yeah.
13 Q And the classic RPF meal is beans and rice,
14 correct?
15 A No.
16 Q Okay. You have to complete working for your
17 ethics violations before you can return to whatever
18 your normal staff assignment is, correct?
19 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor. Delay
20 is the issue as the Court pointed out. He
21 ought to get to delay and the number of
22 people who were eating meals, not religious
23 practices as a disciplinary --
24 THE COURT: That's what I'm interested
25 in, Mr. Merrett. As soon as you can get
. 1380
1 there I want to know where are these people
2 or did she have to drive somewhere else
3 before she got the meals to the children and
4 all that's what I'm concerned about and
5 whether these people in this RPF are on some
6 sort of timetable or something else here.
7 That's what I'm concerned about.
8 BY MR. MERRETT:
9 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. You testified
10 that what you were wanting to do at that moment when
11 you opened the door and looked out and saw Mr. Minton
12 and myself, you were wanting to get to your van which
13 is a regular size van to move it to the door, correct?
14 A Right.
15 Q And before you could load and unload any of
16 this food, you needed to move the van down here be
17 this door, right?
18 A Right.
19 Q Please look at the judge and tell him what
20 was parked in front of this door?
21 A There was nothing.
22 Q There was nothing there?
23 A No.
24 MR. MERRETT: Thank you very much,
25 ma'am.
. 1381
1 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, questions?
2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. POPE:
4 Q Yes, sir. Do you know the name of the tall
5 young woman with the dark hair and the red jacket who
6 came and brought you into the courtroom?
7 A No, I actually don't.
8 Q You don't know her name?
9 A No.
10 Q Okay. Had you ever see her before today?
11 A Yeah, I've seen. She's a but I don't know
12 the name.
13 Q You don't know the name, all right.
14 THE COURT: For the record, her name is
15 Annie Getto and that is why I asked her if
16 she knew that name by any chance. That's her
17 name. She goes by Annie Getto.
18 BY MR. POPE:
19 Q Are all the of the people you're bringing
20 food to located at the Quality Inn or are they spread
21 out here and there?
22 A They are spread out here and there.
23 Q Okay. Where are they besides being at the
24 Quality Inn?
25 A I deliver food to the WB and --
. 1382
1 THE COURT: The Wind Beach or whatever
2 that is? The Windbreaker? Yeah, I know what
3 you're talking about, but that's another
4 motel by the Quality Inn?
5 BY MR. POPE:
6 Q Any place else?
7 A Yeah, Hacienda.
8 Q Okay.
9 THE COURT: You go to all those places?
10 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
11 THE COURT: After you pick up the 200
12 meals there?
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's where I go.
14 I go that route.
15 MR. POPE: No further questions, Your
16 Honor.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I would move
19 to strike her testimony. We are in a
20 criminal proceeding. These issues are framed
21 by court's order to show cause. In
22 paragraph --
23 THE COURT: Let's do this. Let's get
24 her off the stand and then we can deal with
25 that. Can we excuse her?
. 1383
1 MR. POPE: As far as I'm concerned, Your
2 Honor.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Can we excuse her?
4 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, you may want
5 to talk to her after you review the video
6 again, but she can be released for my part.
7 THE COURT: All right, I'll tell you
8 what. You can step down and wait outside.
9 There is a chance we may call you back in a
10 few minutes, ma'am. So I'll let you off the
11 stand at this time but just wait outside.
12 There is a chance I'll be calling you back.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 THE COURT: All right. Let's let her
15 get down. Okay, argument.
16 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I move to
17 strike based on the fact that the order to
18 show cause regarding the incident on
19 December 4 charges that the violation of the
20 injunction occurred because the bread
21 delivery that was being received at that
22 address was blocked.
23 Additionally, I would move to strike it
24 based on obvious purcurious content, since
25 she has just sworn that the bread truck was
. 1384
1 nonexistent, having testified there was
2 nothing in front of the door and that being
3 of course the gravamen of the charges in the
4 paragraph, but the principle reason is that
5 this is criminal proceeding.
6 The specific charge is interfering with
7 that bread delivery and this is as I said, a
8 post hoc attempt to patch up holes in the
9 case in chief and obviously to do so by
10 raising matters no raise on the order to
11 show cause.
12 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
13 place.)
14 MR. POPE: Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: I'm going to get to you in
16 just a second, sir. I want to make sure I
17 put down everything I need right now.
18 Mr. Howie.
19 MR. HOWIE: I join in the motion to
20 strike Your Honor. This is improper rebuttal
21 as we've said before, but in addition, the
22 allegations are very clear. They relate only
23 to the bread delivery. There is no
24 allegation concerning this witness. There
25 was no new matter that was raised during the
. 1385
1 presentation of the defense in this case.
2 This should be part of their case in chief
3 and bears no relation whatsoever to the
4 allegations in the motion or order to show
5 cause.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Pope.
7 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the exact
8 language of Paragraph B on page four of the
9 amended consolidated order to show cause says
10 at the same time the Church's food service
11 staff were receiving a bread delivery through
12 and entrance that was a few feet away from
13 where the security camera is located, period.
14 In addition to Mr Minton and Mr. Merrett
15 being in the way of the activity, several
16 other LMT related individuals came out of
17 the LMT property and stood around and --
18 (Whereupon, court reporter tried to stop
19 Mr. Pope from reading too fast.)
20 THE COURT: Hold it, Mr. Pope. Slow
21 down now. Let's back up.
22 MR. POPE: Several other LMT related
23 individuals came out of the LMT property and
24 stood around, also blocking the area,
25 standing less than ten feet from the Church
. 1386
1 staff and blocking their ingress and egress
2 from the delivery entrance to the building.
3 Then if goes on to name the individuals.
4 MR. MERRETT: All of whom have been
5 excused by the court's grant a judgment of
6 acquittal and none of them were identified of
7 referred to by this witness who referred to
8 only ton Mr. Minton and myself and of course
9 made claim that she was not receiving the
10 bread delivery from a nonexistent bread
11 truck.
12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, close reading of
13 Paragraph B would show that in fact
14 Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett are not accused of
15 standing within ten feet of the Church staff,
16 but rather the named individuals, Grady Ward,
17 Jesse Prince, Rod Keller, Heather Bennett and
18 Frank Oliver accused of standing within ten
19 feet of the staff member and they have been
20 dismissed.
21 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the reason that
22 this is in is because this --
23 THE COURT: Just a minute. Hold on.
24 Let me get the paragraph. What paragraph is
25 this?
. 1387
1 MR. POPE: Paragraph 3B.
2 THE COURT: I've got.
3 MR. POPE: On page four.
4 THE COURT: 3B. All right.
5 MR. POPE: The reason that this witness
6 has been called is that they, the defendants
7 insisted in their positive testimony that
8 they had done no blocking of ingress or
9 egress to this building and he called this
10 witness to rebut that.
11 MR. MERRETT: Judge, if I can just point
12 out and I would remind the court again, this
13 is a criminal proceeding, and having
14 testified I never killed anyone doesn't
15 subject a person for being convicted for some
16 killing that is proved out a myth, certainly
17 not from a phantom witness who has now denied
18 that the bread truck which is at the center
19 of the accusations against Mr. Minton and
20 myself, was even there.
21 I mean, you have two separate charges.
22 One is that Mr. Minton and I were, by being
23 nearby, blocking that door. The other is
24 that the rest of these people were blocking
25 by being on the sidewalk.
. 1388
1 This witness was not part of the bread
2 delivery and in fact obviously by her
3 testimony denied that one ever took place.
4 The only offense charged against Mr. Minton
5 and myself in this paragraph is obstructing
6 the bread delivery.
7 Nothing that we did to her is
8 cognisable, I mean if we had jumped down and
9 beat her up, it's not cognizable in this
10 proceeding because it's not charged conduct.
11 MR. HOWIE: In addition --
12 THE COURT: Gentlemen, gentlemen, thank
13 you very much for these arguments. I'm going
14 to deny the motion to strike.
15 I have voluminous notes on what the
16 testimony has been in this matter and I'll
17 certainly put this in the chain of
18 credibility where it belongs.
19 Let's proceed. you want to take a break?
20 Let's take a break. I see some tension
21 showing on the faces. Let's take about a
22 ten minute break.
23 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after
24 which the proceedings continued.)
25 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, call the last
. 1389
1 witness.
2 MR. POPE: No further witnesses, Your
3 Honor.
4 THE COURT: What?
5 MR. POPE: No further witnesses.
6 THE COURT: Now said you had three
7 witnesses. Okay.
8 MR. POPE: I decided I covered it with
9 two.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. All
11 right.
12 MR. MERRETT: I wonder if we could get
13 the name of the witness that I guess drove
14 the bread truck away. The witness that isn't
15 here.
16 THE COURT: I don't know. I'm out of
17 that. I'm not sure that --
18 MR. MERRETT: I guess not. I wonder if
19 in surrebuttal since we did raise a new
20 matter if we might call Mr. Minton?
21 THE COURT: All right. He can come
22 become. He's under oath. Stay within the
23 scope.
24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir, within the
25 length of the bread truck.
. 1390
1 THE COURT: I am concerned about one
2 thing. You think you're going to want that
3 lady back?
4 MR. MERRETT: I think you might, Judge.
5 THE COURT: I'm going to wait and see
6 what happens here. Okay, but, all right.
7 He's under oath. I'll continue him under the
8 oath this I place him under previously and
9 we'll go that way. Thank you.
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. MERRETT:
12 Q Mr. Minton, directing your attention back to
13 December 4, the camera incident.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Let me ask you if you have seen the
16 videotape that was entered in evidence covering that
17 incident?
18 A I have.
19 Q And after you dismounted the ladder you see
20 Mr. Prince and I believe Ms. Bennett begin to fold the
21 ladder up?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you and I and the rest of the people who
24 were there immediately quit the area at the point?
25 A We did. We left.
. 1391
1 Q Did we remain around after that?
2 A No.
3 Q Was the bread truck still there when we?
4 A I think so.
5 Q Okay. How many times were you on the ladder
6 facing north on Watterson Street?
7 A One time.
8 Q Was that a single continuous incident?
9 A It was.
10 Q So when Ms. Wennberg testified that she saw
11 you with her back to her, that can only have been the
12 single incident displayed on the video?
13 A Right. The other time I was facing south.
14 MR. MERRETT: Okay. Nothing further.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Howie.
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. HOWIE:
18 Q May it please the court, Mr. Minton, this
19 was the only time that you have been on the ladder at
20 that location, correct?
21 A Certainly on this day and I don't recall
22 ever having used the ladder outside before.
23 Q All right. And you've seen the videotape in
24 this case repeatedly, correct?
25 A Yes, I have.
. 1392
1 Q Does that videotape depict all the times
2 that you were on the ladder that day?
3 A Yes, absolutely.
4 Q And there was not time you were on the
5 ladder that was not depicted in the video?
6 A That is correct.
7 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. No further
8 questions. Mr. Pope.
9 MR. POPE: No questions, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step
11 down and have a seat back next to your
12 attorney.
13 MR. MERRETT: Nothing further on
14 surrebuttal, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Does anybody have any other
16 witnesses?
17 MR. POPE: No.
18 MR. MERRETT: No.
19 THE COURT: Anybody? We're through with
20 all testimony and evidence; is that correct?
21 MR. POPE: We are.
22 THE COURT: Let's do this. Then that
23 being the case, closing arguments?
24 MR. POPE: Now?
25 THE COURT: No. Thank you. What I'd
. 1393
1 like to do is nine o'clock in the morning by
2 all means. Mr. Howie?
3 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, two matters. We
4 would also be renewing our JOA motions
5 tomorrow morning and would obviously need a
6 little time to prepare that.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. HOWIE: So the record is clear,
9 we're not waiving them.
10 MR. MERRETT: If I may, Your Honor, I
11 would renew mine. I've been observing the
12 court's note taking and the court's heard my
13 argument which was probably more abusive than
14 exhausting in terms of time the last time.
15 If I have anything to add I should
16 probably go out in the hall and shoot
17 myself.
18 THE COURT: Here's what I'll do. Look.
19 So that my bailiff doesn't have to clean that
20 up, let's go this way. Tomorrow morning,
21 okay. Don't do any anything; everything.
22 Tomorrow morning. I understand you're
23 reserving.
24 MR. HOWIE: I have one other problem,
25 Your Honor. I am supposed to be in front of
. 1394
1 Judge Baird in downtown Clearwater at
2 nine o'clock in the morning.
3 THE COURT: How long is that going to
4 last?
5 MR. HOWIE: Well, I'm going to try and
6 do it by telephone. I have opposing
7 counsel's permission do that. It may be a
8 UMC calendar so I'm sort of concerned about
9 timing.
10 What I would like to do is have
11 permission of the court to actually start
12 saw about 9:30.
13 MR. POPE: That's fine with me.
14 THE COURT: You know what I'll do? Wait
15 a minute. Gentlemen, look. Believe me, my
16 judicial assistant has enough to keep me busy
17 from early tomorrow morning until you all get
18 here so here's what I'm going to do. I'll
19 say ten o'clock and we'll play it loose.
20 Just let us know and we'll work it from
21 there, okay.
22 Here's what I would like. Mr. Merrett
23 did bring up a point. A safe rule of thumb
24 is that normally the JOA arguments are about
25 a quarter of the length that the attorney
. 1395
1 likes for his closing, so if that's the
2 case, you know, I can be in real serious
3 trouble here. So what I would like to do is
4 put a limit on you all as far as your
5 closing arguments are concerned and 45
6 minutes each max.
7 MR. POPE: God bless you, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: I thank you. I thank you.
9 I'm trying to get this thing taken care of
10 because I know you got to get to work. You
11 got to get back out there and give me the
12 next set of show causes.
13 I get the picture of what's going on
14 here. This is going to be a career thing
15 for all of us.
16 Seriously, let's get on with it and I'll
17 put 45 on the closings and on the JOAs, max
18 30 minutes apiece and let's tomorrow morning
19 ten o'clock and everybody, have a good
20 evening, please.
21 MR. MERRETT: Judge, just so you know,my
22 JOA is going to be more like three minutes
23 than 30 because I am serious. I did cover all
24 of the law last time.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
. 1396
1 MR. MERRETT: So whatever difference
2 that makes.
3 THE COURT: I'll accept that, but I know
4 better than to try to hold you to it.
5 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
6 THE COURT: See you in the morning.
7 (Thereupon, the trial was adjourned to
8 reconvene at 10:00 A.M. on February 21, 2001.)
9 End of Volume XI
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