VOLUME VIII TRIAL
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida corporation, Petitioner, vs. ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL., Respondents.
BEFORE: The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR. PLACE: Pinellas County Judicial Building 545 First Avenue North St. Petersburg, Florida DATE: February 16, 2001 TIME: Commencing at 9:00 A.M. REPORTED BY: JACKIE L. OSTROM Court Reporter --------------------------------------------------- ORDERS TO SHOW CASE -------------------------------------------------- Pages 940 - 1063 Volume VIII ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 35 CLEARWATER, FLORIDA (727) 443-0992 . APPEARANCES The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR. CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE ET AL 911 Chestnut Clearwater, Florida HELENA KOBRIN, ESQUIRE MOXON AND KOBRIN 3055 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 900 Los Angeles, California 90010 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship Organization JOHN MERRETT, ESQUIRE 2716 Herschel Street Jacksonville, Florida 32205 BRUCE G. HOWIE, ESQUIRE PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE AND WERNER 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida 33707 Attorneys for Robert Minton and Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc. . 942 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett, 3 ready to call your next witness? 4 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I would at 5 this point publish the video. 6 THE COURT: Right. Okay. Did you have 7 a chance to see it? 8 MR. POPE: We did and I have not had an 9 opportunity to cross-examine the witness, 10 Ms. Brooks, who identified this video and I 11 wish to do that. 12 THE COURT: Okay. I allowed you to do 13 that before and what we'll do is we'll put 14 Ms. Brooks back on the stand and then I'll 15 give Mr. Pope the opportunity it do that. 16 MR. POPE: And that was also the issue 17 remaining which we'll take up in a minute. 18 THE COURT: The finances? 19 MR. POPE: The finances. 20 THE COURT: All right. We'll get to 21 that in a few minutes. Take your time. Take 22 your time. 23 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. POPE: 25 Q Good morning, Ms. Brooks. . 943 1 A Good morning, Mr. Pope. 2 Q You identified this tape that Mr. Merrett 3 wishes to play for us yesterday and I believe that you 4 were present when the tape was made? 5 A Yes, I was. 6 Q And it was made at the Tampa airport? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And it was made in July of 2000, correct? 9 A Yes, that is correct. 10 Q Some five months at least before this 11 injunction that's at issue was even issued, correct? 12 A Yes. Well, actually wasn't there an 13 injunction issued before? 14 Q There may have been an earlier injunction in 15 place, although I believe that it expired in May and 16 there was no injunction in place in July, as I recall? 17 A Okay, but I don't think the reason for 18 showing the videotape was to show any violation of the 19 injunction. It was to show the kinds of things that 20 we feel it's necessary to videotape and to document. 21 Q Okay. 22 A The interaction between critics of 23 Scientology and Scientology operatives. 24 Q And this videotape is the videotape of the 25 arrival in Tampa from Germany of a woman names Ursula . 944 1 Caberta, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q That's U-R-S-U-L-A C-A-B-E-R-T-A. 4 THE COURT: Thank you very much. Thank 5 you. 6 BY MR. POPE: 7 Q And Ursula Caberta is a government official 8 in Hamburg, Germany, isn't she? 9 A Yes, she's the head of the Scientology task 10 force for the Hamburg government. 11 Q Known as the working group on Scientology? 12 A Yes, but a better translation into English 13 would be task force. 14 Q And she is currently under investigation by 15 the Hamburg government for accepting money from 16 Mr. Minton, isn't she? 17 A I believe that investigation has concluded. 18 As far as I know there was no -- the government found 19 no evidence in any kind of wrongdoing there. 20 Q And what she does is she promotes the use of 21 forms among German businesses whereby prospective 22 employees have to swear that they don't follow any of 23 the teachings of L. Rob Hubbard; is that right? 24 A Actually that's incorrect. 25 Q That's incorrect? . 945 1 A Yes. 2 Q Well, tell me what's correct? 3 A What's correct is that she has -- the 4 Hamburg government has been approached by many 5 businesses -- 6 MR. POPE: Excuse me. 7 THE COURT: Just a second. Just one 8 second. I'll be right back. 9 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took 10 place.) 11 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir. Go 12 ahead. 13 MR. POPE: Your Honor, to the extent the 14 witness is attempting to testify about what 15 businesses have approached the Hamburg 16 government and this sort of thing, it's way 17 outside of her area of competence and it's 18 hearsay. 19 MS. BROOKS: Well, but -- 20 MR. POPE: Excuse me. 21 THE COURT: Just a minute. Hold on. 22 Let me play here. 23 MR. MERRETT: If I may. 24 THE COURT: Sir? 25 MR. MERRETT: If I may? . 946 1 THE COURT: Okay. Let me hear from you. 2 MR. MERRETT: That problem with that 3 objection is that Mr. Pope posited a 4 statement with which he asked he to agree 5 with was similarly outside her direct 6 knowledge asking was it not true that 7 Ms. Caberta was pushing this document. 8 I believe she is entitled within the 9 same scope of knowledge or non-knowledge to 10 tell what the real story is. I mean he's 11 opened the door and now he's griping about 12 it. 13 THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. Whoa. 14 There's two ways to handle this. I simply 15 say overruled, answer, or okay, ask her to be 16 more direct and you're going to have cross. 17 MR. MERRETT: I guess my point in 18 Mr. Pope actually is objecting to his own 19 question. 20 THE COURT: Within -- I guess it could 21 be interpreted that way. What I'm going to 22 do is this. I'm going to allow her to answer 23 to the best of her ability this question, but 24 let's try and stay on point and if that 25 doesn't satisfy everybody, you each have a . 947 1 chance to get back into it. 2 MR. POPE: Okay. 3 MR. MERRETT: All right. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 5 MS. BROOKS: What I was trying to 6 clarify, Mr. Pope, is that you are saying she 7 is promoting this thing and I'm just trying 8 to clarify for you that it's not a matter 9 that she is promoting the signing of this 10 declaration. In fact what's happened is that 11 businesses have a approached the Hamburg 12 government because they are been concerned 13 about Scientology front groups, basically 14 management consulting firms, who go in to 15 companies and do not reveal that they are 16 actually there to promote the Hubbard 17 technology and then they get into the company 18 and it's only later that the company 19 discovers that this is what they're been 20 doing and they've found it to be very 21 detrimental so they approached the government 22 and asked for the government to some up with 23 a way that the companies can legally and 24 legitimately ascertain at the outset whether 25 or not this consulting firm is planning to . 948 1 indoctrinate its employees into Hubbard 2 technology and it's simply a matter of full 3 disclosure. 4 It's not a matter of any kind of -- it's 5 really not a matter of anything but full 6 disclosure and it's something that the 7 businesses have requested. It's not 8 something that the government is pushing at 9 all. 10 THE COURT: Now, let me ask you 11 something. When you're talking about the 12 Hamburg government, Hamburg is a city. 13 MS. BROOKS: It's a state. 14 MR. POPE: A city, state, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Well, all right. That's 16 what I wanted to -- you're not trying to say 17 Hamburg encompasses all of Germany? 18 MS. BROOKS: No, no, no, just the State 19 of Hamburg. It's a task force of the Hamburg 20 government, not of the Federal Republic of 21 Germany. 22 THE COURT: I see. Okay. Then you said 23 something else. You said Hubbard technology. 24 MS. BROOKS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Is it Hubbard technology or . 949 1 Hubbard philosophy. 2 MS. BROOKS: No, it's the Hubbard 3 business technology. Basically what happens, 4 Your Honor, is that a management consulting 5 group will go into a business and they will 6 promote the Hubbard management technology in 7 that business. 8 The company will then begin to adopt 9 some of these Hubbard business practices 10 without realizing that it's part of the 11 overall Scientology technology and in the 12 sense that -- then, what will happen is once 13 they started to use the business technology 14 of Hubbard they will then be urged to start 15 going to the Church of Scientology and start 16 getting other services that are beyond the 17 Hubbard business technology and this is what 18 the business have been concerned about is 19 that they feel that it's in a certain way 20 well, really fraudulent because the business 21 consulting firm is saying that it's only 22 there to help the business practice but in 23 fact what it later turns out is that they're 24 there to sort of get a wedge in by the 25 business practice and then really what their . 950 1 intention is, is to get these people to 2 become full blown Scientologists and this 3 has caused problems for some the these 4 businesses and so they have asked the 5 government to give them a way in which they 6 can ascertain if the people that are coming 7 in with their business seminars are coming 8 in with Hubbard technology or not. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Now, there have been 10 United Congressional hearings through on 11 religious supression in Germany and stuff by 12 congressional committees and -- 13 MS. BROOKS: As a matter of fact I've 14 sat in on that hearing, Your Honor, and there 15 was quite a bit of incorrect information that 16 was given during that hearing because as far 17 as Germany is concerned they do not recognize 18 Scientology as a religion. In Germany 19 Scientology is classified as an extremist 20 political movement. 21 THE COURT: That's all of the country 22 now, not just Hamburg? 23 MS. BROOKS: Yes, but also including 24 Hamburg, so, you know, it's -- what's 25 happened in with a number of the . 951 1 congressional -- members of this committee, 2 the House International Relations Committee 3 is that they have been misinformed basically. 4 In other words, it's not really fair for 5 the U.S. government to condemn Germany or 6 any other country in Europe for their stand 7 on Scientology when that country has not 8 recognized Scientology as a religion and, 9 you know, in 1993 the IRS granted 10 Scientology its tax exception and since that 11 time the United States government has dealt 12 with Scientology as a religion because it 13 got its tax exception as a religion, but up 14 until that time the U.S. government was 15 dealing with Scientology in much the same 16 way that the European countries are dealing 17 with Scientology now and in fact a lot of 18 information has come out about some of the 19 people, some of the Scientologists who have 20 claimed religious discrimination in Germany 21 for example it has turned out upon further 22 investigation that they were -- that it was 23 not a matter of their being discriminated 24 against because of their religion. 25 It was a matter of they're having legal . 952 1 difficulties or other kinds of problems and 2 it really didn't have anything to with 3 Germany discriminating against them as a 4 Scientologist because of their religion. 5 THE COURT: When you say that the 6 Congressional International Relation 7 Committees was given disinformation, has 8 anything been done to get more information to 9 that committee? 10 MS. BROOKS: Yes. As a matter of fact 11 at the Lisa McPherson Trust one of the things 12 that we're working on right now is putting 13 together a packet of information so that they 14 can get the correct information. 15 We've, you know -- I felt when was I 16 there that it was not enough for me to give 17 them my opinion or for me to sort of act as 18 a communicator for the Germany government. 19 I wanted to take the time to gather enough 20 documentation of our own that when I 21 presented the package to our congressmen 22 they would see that the kinds of situations 23 that Germany is concerned about is also 24 happening in the United States with their 25 own constituency and that's taken me a . 953 1 little bit of time, but we now enough 2 information that we can do that. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope. 4 BY MR. POPE: 5 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, you do recognize 6 that courts in Germany have recognized Scientology as 7 a religion; you understand that? 8 A I don't believe that's the case. 9 Q You don't think so, all right. And you do 10 understand that in Germany the government levies a 11 church tax on everybody in the country which is sent 12 to the church of your choice which is usually Catholic 13 or Protestant, which makes that country's relationship 14 between church and state substantially different from 15 the United States? 16 A Yes, it's very different there than it is 17 here. 18 Q In fact the state meddles quite a bit more 19 in religious matters in Germany than it does in United 20 States because we have the protection of the First 21 Amendment, correct? 22 A That's incorrect, sir. 23 Q That's wrong, is it? 24 A It's wrong to characterize it as meddling, 25 because the German government has it own constitution. . 954 1 Because of its experience with Nazism in the thirties 2 and forties they have an office for the protection of 3 the constitution in that country which our country 4 does not and they deal with extremist political 5 movements in a much more, I guess I would say 6 concerned way, than we do in the United States because 7 of their experience. 8 Q People don't -- people in Germany aren't the 9 beneficiaries of the United States Constitution Bill 10 of Rights, are they? 11 A No, they're the beneficiaries of the German 12 government's office for the protection of the 13 constitution. 14 Q All right? 15 A Mr. Pope, and the other thing that I think 16 you should realize is that there was a lawsuit filed 17 about the Hubbard Declaration in Hamburg and the court 18 in Hamburg threw the lawsuit out and found that the 19 Hubbard Declaration was in fact constitutional and was 20 in fact a legal document, so one of the problems that 21 we have is the difference between the government in 22 the United States and the government in Germany and as 23 I was telling Judge Penick, it's a little unfair for 24 you to characterize what German government is doing in 25 terms of the United States because the German . 955 1 government has its own set of laws and its own 2 constitution. 3 Q And I suppose you would feel the same way 4 about the Soviet Union, we shouldn't have criticized 5 the way they ran their country back then either, huh? 6 MR. MERRETT: I'll object. 7 MS. BROOKS: I beg your pardon? 8 MR. MERRETT: -- and argumentative. 9 MR. POPE: I'll withdraw the question, 10 Your Honor. 11 MS. BROOKS: I don't really think that's 12 appropriate. 13 BY MR. POPE: 14 Q Let me ask you if will concede this, that 15 the United States Trade Commission and the United 16 States State Department both condemn discrimination 17 practices in Germany against Scientologist? That's 18 true, isn't it? 19 A I believe there is a little bit more to that 20 than that. 21 Q But is that true? Is that true, basically 22 is that essentially true what I just asked you? 23 A They have issued statements condemning it, 24 however I'd like to add a little bit of information to 25 clarify that for you. . 956 1 Q Go right ahead. 2 A Well, basically what happened and this was 3 reported in several media publications and it was also 4 talked about on Meet the Press, by Sandy Burger, the 5 President Clinton's Security Advisor, but basically 6 what happened was President Clinton made a deal with 7 John Travolta, that -- 8 MR. POPE: Object. Your Honor -- 9 THE COURT: Let her answer. Let her 10 answer. 11 MR. POPE: All right. 12 THE COURT: I admit we're out here a 13 ways, but let's just go ahead. 14 MS. BROOKS: But this is really what 15 happened. 16 THE COURT: Okay. I said you can 17 answer. 18 MS. BROOKS: It was reported in the 19 media. 20 MR. POPE: Your Honor, she's testifying 21 from what has appeared in a newspaper, you 22 know. 23 THE COURT: Well, I'll give that the 24 credibility I feel it deserves. 25 MR. POPE: As long as the court . 957 1 recognizes the incompetency of the basic 2 proposition. 3 MR. MERRETT: Well, I don't know -- 4 look, let's just let her testify and I'll see 5 where it came from and if it's from the media 6 we'll just work on it, okay. 7 MS. BROOKS: Your Honor, Sandy Burger, 8 the Security Advisor with also discuss this 9 issue. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. I said you 11 may answer. 12 MS. BROOKS: Okay. Basically, John 13 Travolta was going to play the Clinton 14 character in Primary Colors and Clinton told 15 John Travolta that if he would characterize 16 him in a positive way in that movie, Clinton 17 would have his security advisor deal with the 18 issues that John Travolta was concerned, 19 which was the way Scientology was being 20 treated in Germany and for that reason 21 Clinton assigned Sandy Berger to issue this 22 condemnation and Sandy Berger actually 23 discussed this on television and I'm sure you 24 would be able to get a transcript of that TV 25 show if you would be interested in doing so, . 958 1 so, you know, there is a little bit of -- 2 MR. MERRETT: Judge, I wonder if 3 Ms. Kobrin and Mr. Shaw could keep their 4 voices down a little here so I can hear what 5 the witness is saying. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Please, folks, let's 7 do this. Maybe -- what I'm pausing to think 8 is to how I can help Mr. Pope here with this 9 note passing and there is kind of gap here. 10 Maybe if you move back a little closer. 11 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I'm getting ready 12 to move off this subject. 13 THE COURT: Okay, because I was just 14 going to say let's go back and see how we got 15 over here this it corridor. 16 The lady came from Germany and she 17 worked for the Hamburg Government and she 18 was promoting these forms. 19 MS. BROOKS: No, sir. 20 THE COURT: Scratch that. I'm sorry. 21 There was a question about some forms, so can 22 we get back to that? 23 MR. POPE: Yes, I'll be happy to direct 24 us back to where we were. 25 THE COURT: I have one more question. . 959 1 MR. POPE: Okay. 2 THE COURT: Why was the French 3 government here yesterday, or excuse me, the 4 French media? I mean is France into this 5 thing like Germany? 6 MS. BROOKS: It's a major issue in 7 France. 8 THE COURT: It is also? 9 MS. BROOKS: It's a major issue in 10 France. They are very, very concerned about 11 the Scientology issue in France. 12 THE COURT: Any other European 13 countries? 14 MS. BROOKS: Yes, Belgium is very 15 concerned about it, Austria is very concerned 16 about it, England, Italy, Greece. 17 THE COURT: Italy? 18 MS. BROOKS: Yes. Greece has 19 actually -- 20 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Let's go 21 back. They're making end roads in Italy? 22 MS. BROOKS: Oh, yeah. The Italian 23 courts actually arrested I think it was close 24 to 200 Scientologists a couple years ago for 25 fraud and now that whole issue is still an . 960 1 issue in the courts in Italy. 2 In Greece they banned Scientology 3 because they discovered that Scientologists 4 had somehow or another come into possession 5 of top secret government documents and they 6 were very concerned that th same thing that 7 happened in the United States in the late, 8 in the seventies that led to criminal 9 indictments and convictions was happening in 10 Greece where Scientology operatives were 11 infiltrating government offices and stealing 12 documents, so it is a major issue, Your 13 Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MS. BROOKS: It's not just -- 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MS. BROOKS: And, you know, the 18 governments in the European countries are 19 dealing with it in a very much more serious 20 way. They see it as a much more serious 21 threat than the courts in the United States 22 see it and Scientology is very, very, 23 very -- is trying very, very hard to 24 characterize the concern in Europe as 25 religious discrimination and it's very much . 961 1 not the case. 2 It's very much not the case. It is not 3 religious discrimination in Europe. 4 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. There 5 is the Lisa McPherson Trust and you're saying 6 that you all are trying to put forth 7 information about Scientology. 8 MS. BROOKS: Well -- 9 THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. Just 10 listen to me. Are you the only organization 11 in the United States or are you the central 12 focus group or how would you classify the 13 Trust in your organization in this cause? 14 MS. BROOKS: Your Honor, we are the only 15 organization in the United States that is -- 16 there are individuals throughout the United 17 States, but we are the only organization that 18 is actually established to help people have 19 been harmed by Scientology. We have five to 20 ten people week, sometimes more than that, 21 calling us, e-mailing us, I mean from all 22 over the world, not just in the United 23 states, people who have been lost all their 24 money to Scientology, people who have lost 25 their loved ones to Scientology, people who . 962 1 are being harassed by Scientology, I mean 2 it's really an almost overwhelming situation 3 that we're trying to deal with. The most -- 4 the thing that we're organized to do more 5 than anything else is to help people who are, 6 well, as Mr. Pope read into the record 7 yesterday, our purpose is to help people who 8 have been abused or deceived by Scientology 9 and that's what we spend our time doing. 10 That's what we spend our time doing. 11 THE COURT: Well, how do you help 12 people? 13 MS. BROOKS: Well, we have them relate 14 their, you know, put their information in 15 affidavit form, you know, so that it's 16 legitimate testimony and we have them -- we 17 help them and kind of serve as clearing house 18 for people also where we educate them about 19 the different federal and state agencies that 20 there are available in the United States to 21 help with whatever particular kinds of 22 situations they've encountered. 23 If they've been defrauded, you know, we 24 direct them to the correct federal and state 25 agencies that would deal with those kinds of . 963 1 issues. 2 If it's a matter of violation of child 3 labor laws or some sort the of child abuse, 4 then we direct them to the correct agency 5 that are concerned with those kinds of 6 situations. 7 If it's a medical situation where 8 someone has been ordered off their 9 medication for a particular illness or if 10 they have been ordered to stop taking 11 prescribed psychiatric medication as a 12 condition of employment, for example, we 13 refer them to the correct agencies of the 14 United States government that would be 15 concerned with those kind of issues, but 16 basically what we're doing which has really 17 never been done before is we're helping 18 people to become educated about what parts 19 of our government and what laws in our 20 country apply to the kinds of harm that 21 people are being subjected to by this 22 organization. And, Your Honor, I have to 23 tell you that it has nothing to do with the 24 beliefs of Scientology. 25 We make it very, very clear to people . 964 1 who call us that the only thing we're 2 concerned with is violations of the law and 3 those are the only things that we deal with. 4 THE COURT: Violations of the law? 5 MS. BROOKS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: Okay. And you say you're 7 helping people and it sounds like you are 8 sort of Don Quixote against all the windmills 9 and do you type -- what type staff, what type 10 help can you give? You know, are you doing 11 this all by yourself? 12 MS. BROOKS: Well, we have a staff of 13 about eight people and we work really long 14 hours and, you know, we're trying to make 15 contact with people in other countries that 16 are also helping these people so that we can 17 get more help for ourselves for what we're 18 trying to do, but it's really -- it's really 19 difficult work. 20 We try to help the people that are 21 coming to us and are willing to challenge 22 some of their practices that people wouldn't 23 be being hurt the way that they are being 24 hurt by them and we've tried very hard to 25 get Scientology to listen to us. . 965 1 We've tried to have meetings with -- we 2 have had meetings with them. We've tried to 3 appeal to them to stop these things. And 4 instead of being willing to consider the 5 possibility that they be doing something 6 wrong, they respond by attacking us and 7 that's the truth. 8 I'm not saying that we're prefect, Your 9 Honor. We're not angels, you know. 10 Certainly, we've all made mistakes and we've 11 done things wrong, but that doesn't change 12 the fact that there's things that need to be 13 changed about Scientology and that's what 14 we're trying to bring about. 15 THE COURT: So you're trying to be heard 16 in the streets and also work in the offices 17 and behind the scenes? 18 MS. BROOKS: Yes, sir. 19 THE COURT: And you say you're putting 20 out literature and information other than 21 protests and things like that, signs, I mean, 22 do you have -- 23 MS. BROOKS: Just protest stuff. 24 THE COURT: Do you have a wealth of 25 materials out there? . 966 1 MS. BROOKS: Yes, Your Honor, we do, and 2 really, Your Honor, you need to understand 3 that the protesting and the picketing is -- 4 it isn't even part of what the Lisa McPherson 5 Trust does. It's really true what these guys 6 were telling you yesterday. 7 These guys have been protesting 8 Scientology long before there was such a 9 thing as the Lisa McPherson Trust. 10 You know, some of the people that are 11 part of the Lisa McPherson Trust also feel 12 that protesting and picketing is a valid 13 form of making their own feelings known 14 about Scientology, but, I mean, you know, I 15 don't have time to do that. 16 You know, most of the people at the Lisa 17 McPherson Trust don't picket. That's not 18 what we're there to do. And really we've 19 tried to make it clear that most of the 20 people that go and picket are not part of 21 the Lisa McPherson Trust, they're not staff 22 of the Lisa McPherson Trust, and people who 23 are employed by the Lisa McPherson Trust 24 never do that on their business hours. It's 25 not part of anybody's job at the Lisa . 967 1 McPherson Trust to picket. 2 You know, some of the people will tell 3 you that I really think that sometimes the 4 picketing detracts from the work that we're 5 trying to do because it makes you and other 6 people think that that's our work and it's 7 not. You know, it's just that picketing is 8 a valid form of expression in this country 9 and people have a right to do it. You know 10 what I'm saying? Scientology doesn't want 11 people to be able to criticize them. They 12 don't like to be criticized. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope. 14 BY MR. POPE: 15 Q Let's get back to the airport in July of 16 2000, the arrival of Ms. Caberta. What your videotape 17 shows is that a group of mostly German Scientologists 18 protesting her arrival, correct? 19 A No, Mr. Pope. 20 Q What does it show then? 21 A I mean it has about three or four German 22 Scientologists, but mostly it's Clearwater 23 Scientologists out there organized by the Office of 24 Special Affairs, Ben Shaw who's sitting there with you 25 and others of the Office of Special Affairs people . 968 1 were there at the airport directing these people where 2 to go, what to do and, you know, you'll see in the 3 video that as soon as Ms. Caberta emerged from the -- 4 what do you call that thing when you get off the plane 5 and you walk through that tunnel, you know whatever, 6 into the terminal, the first person you'll see is 7 screaming Nazi, Nazi at Ms. Caberta is not a German 8 Scientologists. He's an American name Ian Shelton 9 whose been in Scientology since I was there and he's 10 been doing OSA volunteer work for many, many years. 11 You know, this was a calculated effort to 12 embarrass Ms. Caberta to harass and intimidate her. 13 It had nothing to do with German Scientologists 14 venting their sincere feelings. 15 You know, these people, these German 16 Scientologists also came and harassed us at 17 Ms. Caberta's hotel, laughing at us, baiting us, 18 heckling us, interrupting us at dinner, coming over to 19 our dinner table saying you're a Nazi, you're a Nazi. 20 Why don't you leave our country. You're a Nazi, 21 You're a Nazi. You know, come on. 22 Q These folks who greeted Ms. Caberta were not 23 venting their sincere feelings; is that what you're 24 saying? 25 A The reason that I'm telling you that is . 969 1 because several of them were laughing at me make, 2 making a mockery of me and our work and making it very 3 clear that their intention was to harass her and it is 4 seemed very clear to me from the OSA people that were 5 at the airport that it was being directed by the 6 Office of Special Affairs. 7 Q You do you agree that they were exercising 8 that same right of free speech this you contend you're 9 entitled to exercise on the streets of Clearwater? 10 A Yes, but I think that they were doing it in 11 an extremely harassing way and I think the videotape 12 shows that. 13 Q Okay. 14 A You know, nobody arrested them, Mr. Pope. 15 MR. POPE: I have no further questions 16 of this issue, Your Honor. Let me renew 17 based upon this somewhat rambling discourse 18 we've had about church and state in Germany, 19 back to the main issue we have a tape here 20 that was recorded five months before this 21 court's injunction that doesn't prove or 22 disprove any aspect of the central question 23 before the court and that is did the named 24 defendants violate your injunction or not? 25 That's all that's before you today. . 970 1 We got way far field on this and this 2 tape doesn't prove or disprove any of that 3 and I would object to its publication, Your 4 Honor, and I don't know if you want to hear 5 from Mr. Merrett on that now? 6 THE COURT: Yeah. 7 MR. POPE: And deal with the financial 8 thing later. 9 THE COURT: Certainly. Mr. Merrett. 10 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, the witness -- 11 THE COURT: Did you want to ask any 12 questions first? 13 MR. MERRETT: No, sir. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. MERRETT: And with respect to 16 Mr. Pope's objections, our walk through the 17 lilies of the valleys was occasioned by his 18 cross-examination. The videotape was offered 19 to show what it is that the LMT videotapes. 20 In other words what sort of things as opposed 21 to videotaping people getting in and out of 22 their cars and people eating lunch and things 23 like that. 24 THE COURT: Okay. And Mr. Howie, sir. 25 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I join in his . 971 1 position. After all, it was Mr. Pope who 2 raised the issue, well, don't you take 3 surveillance photos too and by way of her 4 explanation is to the use of the video camera 5 by Lisa McPherson Trust and those associated 6 with them, this is a legitimate response to 7 his own cross-examination. 8 MR. POPE: Your Honor, what possible 9 issue is prove or disproved by what sorts of 10 things that they videotape? That doesn't go 11 to any issue that is currently before this 12 court. 13 MR. MERRETT: If I may, the problem is 14 the issue came up through Mr. Pope's 15 examination of this witness. 16 THE COURT: Let's show the video. 17 Gentlemen, in America, the press actually 18 stays within that area. I can't allow you to 19 roam around the courtroom. That's the way we 20 have it in our policies. 21 What we can do is we're going to turn 22 this around and I'll ask that you turn, you 23 may step down, have a seat out there on the 24 bench but I think that where you are at you 25 will be able to see it. We'll come to you . 972 1 rather than you come to us. Okay. I'll 2 step down also. 3 (Whereupon, the videotape was played.) 4 MR. MERRETT: That's Al Butler? 5 MS. BROOKS: That's Al Butler. 6 THE COURT: That's who? 7 MS. BROOKS: His name is Al Butler. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 9 (Whereupon, videotape was played.) 10 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a 11 minute. Wait a minute. 12 MS. BROOKS: Your Honor, This is another 13 camera at the same scene. 14 THE COURT: All right. Wait a minute. 15 Wait a minute. Hold it. She is on the 16 stand. I don't know what's going on here, 17 you get back. 18 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, so the court 19 is aware, he's another one of her attorneys. 20 THE COURT: I don't know him, he hasn't 21 been introduced. There's a new white rose 22 suddenly here, she's on the witness stand and 23 I don't allow you to talk to her when she's 24 on the witness stand. 25 MR. MERRETT: I understand, Your Honor. . 973 1 THE COURT: Let's take a break. Bring 2 him in my chambers. 3 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 4 THE COURT: You get up on the witness 5 stand. 6 (Thereupon, the following proceedings were 7 had in the Judge's chambers:) 8 THE COURT: All right. What's going on? 9 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, this is -- 10 THE COURT: Has he filed a notice of 11 appearance or anything? 12 MR. MERRETT: He is a member of the Bars 13 of France and Italy, Jean-Michel and I've 14 forgotten his last name. 15 MR. PESENTI: Pesenti. 16 THE COURT: Okay, and I guess it's 17 somebody I don't know anything about and I 18 suddenly have witness who I allow to get off 19 the stand the help with a video and then I 20 see somebody passing notes and whispering to 21 her and everything else, and quite frankly, 22 explain to me what's going on before I put 23 all of her testimony in the hopper. 24 MR. MERRETT: I understand. 25 THE COURT: Garbage can. . 974 1 MR. MERRETT: If he can, his -- 2 obviously English is not his first language 3 or even his third language. If you can 4 explain to the court what you were 5 communicating with Ms. Brooks about. 6 MR. PESENTI: I just write something for 7 her, this is Stacy Brooks. I am French Stacy 8 Brooks' attorney, Mr. President. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. MERRETT: And you're who he's 11 addressing as Mr. President, because that's 12 what the judge is called in France. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. POPE: Perhaps we should see what 15 he's written to her. 16 THE COURT: Yeah. 17 MR. PESENTI: It was nothing -- 18 THE COURT: Yeah, let's put it in the 19 record. 20 MR. MERRETT: If I may, Your Honor -- 21 THE COURT: Put it in the record. 22 MR. MERRETT: If I may, Your Honor, I 23 don't have a problem with that. 24 MR. PESENTI: Nothing. I don't write 25 nothing about -- . 975 1 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I didn't 2 tell you it's you're turn. 3 MR. MERRETT: The inside of that, Your 4 Honor, what you're reading now is a note that 5 had previously given to me that was on the 6 table. 7 THE COURT: Here's the problem where we 8 got off track here is he wasn't introduced or 9 anything else. 10 MR. MERRETT: I understand. 11 THE COURT: And I didn't know whether, 12 you know, it's a new face in the crowd and 13 this is something that we've been watching 14 real close with security and everything and 15 my bailiffs need to know when there is a new 16 white rose because nobody else and if you 17 keep passing these things around and suddenly 18 we've got new faces and new players, I can't 19 control security and it becomes a major issue 20 and, you know, we certainly have laws 21 regarding a witness and all and I've been a 22 little lax so they could go back and 23 everybody could see that video, but I'm going 24 to have to put a chair somewhere where nobody 25 can get to anybody that's a witness. We know . 976 1 that this is just absolutely and here, 2 Mr. Pope, you can see this. Just the 3 outside. 4 The inside they say was from attorney to 5 attorney and I can't tell what the inside 6 said anyway, but the point being we've got 7 to be careful here. I'm trying to do this 8 the best I can, but don't slip in somebody 9 new on me and then not expect to put your 10 case in severe jeopardy. 11 MR. MERRETT: Had I realized he was 12 coming up, Judge, I would have introduced 13 him. So far he's only come up to be to offer 14 suggestions and assistance and I didn't know 15 he was up there. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. MERRETT: I'm assuming they do 18 things differently in France. 19 THE COURT: Yeah, but I can't allow it 20 here so we've got to get this straightened 21 out. Now, again. I want a business card and 22 everything for the record. Do we have a 23 business card? 24 MR. MERRETT: He said he has one out in 25 his sack. . 977 1 THE COURT: Out in the courtroom? 2 MR. MERRETT: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Just give to him when we go 4 back and hand it to the bailiff so it goes 5 into the record. 6 Now, is he going to be part of the team? 7 I mean is he -- 8 MR. MERRETT: No, sir, he's observing to 9 simply get a feel for the witnesses. 10 THE COURT: I see. I was going to say I 11 don't know whether to allow him up at the 12 table, but if he's not an active 13 representative then, I don't want him 14 sitting -- remember we've got to keep the way 15 we're going so that my security, you know, 16 there are people that don't like you sides 17 out there and I don't want somebody slipping 18 up to the table and something go boom. 19 MR. MERRETT: I understand. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Then the next thing I 21 got to be sure is that I've got a pristine 22 witness. I don't want somebody putting words 23 in a witness' mouth while there is all this 24 going on. Now, Mr. Pope, you may. 25 MR. POPE: I had a question about it . 978 1 says, In Germany the something is that 2 Scientologists -- looks like PB. What is 3 that? What does that say? In Germany the -- 4 MR. PESENTI: That is the question, the 5 problem. 6 MR. POPE: In Germany, the problem? 7 MR. PESENTI: Yeah, problem. 8 MR. POPE: The problem is that 9 Scientology? 10 MR. PESENTI: I'm sorry, I don't speak 11 very well, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: It's all right. 13 MR. POPE: In Germany the problem in 14 that Scientologist? 15 MR. PESENTI: No, no, just the beginning 16 of that I want to write. 17 MR. POPE: What does the word PB mean? 18 MR. PESENTI: It's a contraction of 19 problem. 20 MR. POPE: Problem, okay. 21 MR. PESENTI: Problem. 22 MR. POPE: Okay, so what you meant to 23 say was in Germany the problem is that 24 Scientologist? 25 MR. PESENTI: No. . 979 1 MR. POPE: What does this mean? 2 MR. MERRETT: I believe what he's 3 telling you is that's only a portion. That's 4 only the beginning of what he was going to 5 write. That's not a complete statement. 6 MR. POPE: I see. I see. 7 MR. MERRETT: So it's not referring to a 8 specific Scientologist. That refers to a 9 problem. 10 THE COURT: All right. Let's do this. 11 Please, both Mr. Howie and Mr. Merrett, 12 you've got to introduce people. Anything in 13 front of the rail is going to be strictly 14 controlled by me and my bailiffs. 15 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 16 THE COURT: I will still allow the 17 people to talk to their attorneys to come up 18 and everything else. I've got to be able to 19 allow that, but you see, this quite frankly 20 is scary because this is just what my 21 bailiffs and my security people have been 22 worried about, that somebody we don't know, a 23 ringer, suddenly gets up to the table. 24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 25 THE COURT: Now, I'm going to keep . 980 1 Ms. Brooks on the stand and I want you all to 2 make it clear to your people ad everybody 3 else, I want both Mr. Howie and Mr. Minton 4 and also Mr. Pope and the attorneys on that 5 side, we're getting down near the end here 6 but let's don't get careless before something 7 happens. 8 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 9 THE COURT: I'm concerned for everybody. 10 I don't want anything to happen on my watch. 11 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 12 THE COURT: Please. Thank you all. 13 MR. MERRETT: Judge, may I mention 14 something off the record? 15 THE COURT: Sure. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after 18 which the proceedings continued.) 19 THE COURT: All right, let's see about 20 this. Can we go back and pick up where we 21 left off. You were about to do something and 22 I'll allow her to go back down there and we 23 can proceed, but I've got to be -- this has 24 got to be controlled. 25 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. . 981 1 THE COURT: And this has got to be 2 controlled here, too. 3 MR. POPE: We're going to try to keep it 4 under control. I have learned, Your Honor, 5 that there was one other episode that I 6 didn't personally observe, of contact between 7 Ms. Bennett and this witness during the 8 videotape during which Ms. Bennett either 9 passed a note or passed some information 10 orally to Ms. Brooks while she was sitting 11 out here. Now, I personally didn't see it 12 but this young lady apparently did. 13 THE COURT: Let me -- Ms. Brooks, let me 14 ask you something. When we sat down to view 15 that video, the statement that you put on the 16 record or any answers that you might have 17 give to anything Mr. Merrett said, and I 18 remind you, you're under oath here today, 19 were those answers or statements freely and 20 voluntarily made on your part? 21 MS. BROOKS: Yes, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Did anybody instruct you or 23 tell you exactly how to answer or what 24 statements to put on the record? 25 MS. BROOKS: No, sir, not at all. . 982 1 THE COURT: All right. You ready to 2 pick it back up? 3 MR. MERRETT: Actually, Your Honor, I 4 didn't realize that that second view of those 5 events was on the tape and I have no 6 particular need for the court to see the same 7 thing. 8 THE COURT: You just want to stop there? 9 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 10 THE COURT: You just want to make the 11 point that the Scientologists picket also. 12 MR. MERRETT: Well, and actually the 13 point was that these are the kinds of things 14 that we videotape. 15 THE COURT: I see. Okay. 16 MR. MERRETT: And I don't have any other 17 questions. 18 THE COURT: All right, we'll stop there. 19 All right. Now that is this in evidence? 20 MR. MERRETT: Actually, it wasn't, Your 21 Honor, and you can leave it as a 22 demonstrative aid the court wants it -- 23 THE COURT: Evidence. 24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 25 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I would like to . 983 1 know what Ms. Bennett passed information 2 while she was on the stand? 3 THE COURT: Passed on what? 4 MR. POPE: Ms. Bennett. 5 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Time out. You're 6 absolutely right. You have a right to ask 7 questions within what I opened up and then 8 Mr. Merrett and Mr. Howie can ask questions. 9 Sir, you may ask questions. 10 BY MR. POPE: 11 Q Ms. Brooks, while you were sitting out 12 there, didn't Ms. Bennett come up and inform you of 13 something. 14 A She did actually. 15 Q What dis she tell you? 16 A She said those people that are on the video 17 are all Scientologists. 18 Q And then you turned around and testified to 19 that, right? 20 A Yes. 21 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I think that two 22 episodes like this at one time and I think 23 her testimony ought to be stricken. 24 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, you want to ask 25 any questions? . 984 1 BY MR. MERRETT: 2 Q Did you already know that those were 3 Scientologists? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. MERRETT: I don't have any other 6 questions. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Howie? 8 MR. HOWIE: No questions, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Now, let's go one step at a 10 time. Bear with me just a minute. All 11 right. That tape is in evidence as Exhibit 12 Number Nine for the Defendant LMT and I 13 will -- in light of the fact that the only 14 statements that Ms. Brooks made that somebody 15 might have told her while she was sitting our 16 there to make was that those are 17 Scientologists, I'm not going to strike it 18 because it was -- we already knew that they 19 were going out to show Scientologists and 20 everything else and if those had turned out 21 to be Southern Baptists, I'd be surprised so 22 I think we'll just press on. 23 MR. POPE: Yes, sir. 24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Now this is in and . 985 1 you were going to do that and he had that 2 opportunity. The next thing, Mr. Pope, is it 3 issue of the finances. 4 MR. POPE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. POPE: Let me make my argument and 7 then depending on how you rule I either get 8 to ask questions or I don't. 9 THE COURT: Yes, sir, I understand. 10 Mr. Pope, sir. 11 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I've given you 12 the case or Purcell versus State, 735 So. 2d. 13 579, Fourth District Court, June 1999. 14 That case says that, and I'll quote from 15 headnote three of the text, the right to 16 expose an improper motive for the testimony 17 of the witness especially as here, a 18 critical State witness, is therefore an 19 essential ingredient in the right to trial 20 by jury. 21 And then under headnote four, bias may 22 be proved by animus or prejudice against the 23 defendant and interest in the outcome of a 24 case and any matter tending to show a 25 motivation indicating that a witness may be . 986 1 testifying untruthfully. 2 Then this case quotes from Alfred versus 3 State, a 1904 Florida Supreme Court case 4 which says questions touching interest, 5 motives, animus of the status of a witness 6 to the suit are parties are not collateral 7 or immaterial as to such matters, inquiry 8 may be had and it is not within the 9 discretion of the court to exclude it. 10 The hostility of a witness towards a 11 party against whom he is called may be 12 proved by any competent evidence, either by 13 cross-examination of the witness or by the 14 testimony of other witnesses and that it is 15 not necessary that the witness should be 16 first examined as to his hostility before 17 calling other witnesses. 18 Let me give the summary of this law 19 which appears in a Erhardt's Florida 20 Evidence Treatise 2000 Edition, Section 21 608.5 page 457: Interest, motive and animus 22 are never collateral matters of a 23 cross-examination and are always proper. 24 A witness' relation to a party, the 25 personal obligations of a witness to a . 987 1 party, the friendly or unfriendly feelings 2 of a witness towards a party or the victim, 3 the fact that a witness is being paid by a 4 party to testify, the fact that a 5 prosecution witness is under actual threat 6 and criminal charges, a romantic involvement 7 between the within and the party, the 8 witness's membership in an organization 9 which is relevant to demonstrate bias, 10 prejudice or hostility toward a party, 11 threats, made by a party to the witness, the 12 financial state of a witness in the outcome 13 of the case being litigated and the fact 14 that a witness is employed by party all have 15 been recognized by the Florida Courts as 16 proper questions of cross-examination going 17 to the interest and bias of the witness. 18 Now, I want to know the extent of the 19 financial entanglements between this witness 20 and Mr. Minton and the others and we have 21 gotten into detail on the other witnesses. 22 It is crucial to the question of motive 23 of testimony. The showing of complete 24 financial dependence which is what I think 25 is going to come out of this is at the heart . 988 1 of motive of her testimony and believe that 2 we are entitled to ask these questions and 3 the questions that I've already asked and 4 receive answers to them. Thank you. 5 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett, 6 sir. 7 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, if this were 8 being argued in vacuo, that argument might 9 not verge on the asinine. The fact is we're 10 not in a vacuum and it is asinine. 11 Ms. Brooks is the president and a 12 representative of a corporation which is a 13 party to the action. Ms. Brooks is herself 14 a former Scientologist, a disaffected former 15 Scientologist and an activist against the 16 abusive practices of Scientology. 17 The information, if Mr. Pope asks each 18 question that is listed in Professor 19 Erhardt's treatise, it still wouldn't get 20 the point of the information that he is 21 pursuing now which is discover information 22 that Scientology pursues in every piece of 23 litigation that it has underway which is 24 nickels and dimes from Bob Minton. What are 25 exact amounts of money that Bob Minton . 989 1 spends. 2 It is cumulative to the information 3 which is already on the table and I will 4 remind the court that in the event that 5 Mr. Pope is permitted to explore issues of 6 animus and bias, I will then be entitled to 7 explore the entire minute basis for that 8 interest and bias. 9 The fact is, Your Honor, that the issue 10 has been resolved by the evidence that is 11 already in the case and it is purely abusive 12 and harassing to allow Scientology to pursue 13 these details that they have pursued across 14 the country at great expense since it adds 15 nothing to the court's determination. 16 You already are fully aware of this 17 witness' position with respect to 18 Scientology. Thank you. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 20 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I been listening 21 as closely as I can to all of the testimony 22 of Stacy Brooks in this case and I have to 23 make this a observation. When we talk about 24 bias and prejudice we are talking about bias 25 or prejudice against a party or in favor of a . 990 1 party. That's the whole foundation of the 2 bias and prejudice approach. 3 In all of her testimony -- well, that 4 would mean that we either have to explore 5 for bias or prejudice against the Church of 6 Scientology as one party in this case or as 7 it relates to any payments that may have 8 been received from Mr. Minton her bias and 9 prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton as a result 10 of those payments. And that is what they're 11 trying to get auto. 12 Well, what I find curious is in all the 13 direct examination and all the 14 cross-examination of Stacy Brooks as a 15 witness at this hearing, not once has the 16 petitioner extracted any information from 17 her concerning the activities of Robert 18 Minton as pertains to the five remaining 19 allegations against Mr. Minton in the orders 20 to show cause. 21 This effort to show her bias and 22 prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton is totally 23 irrelevant to any issue in this case even 24 though they had a full shot at her in their 25 cross-examination of her. . 991 1 This is a situation where her bias or 2 prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton is 3 irrelevant because they haven't established 4 any predicate for asking those kinds of 5 questions. So, in addition to every other 6 argument that Mr. Merrett's made, I don't 7 think that it's relevant that she has any 8 particular bias or prejudice in favor of 9 Mr. Minton. 10 I would also point out that if we were 11 to ask this witness each and every question 12 that Mr. Pope has just posed by reading out 13 of his book there that we would still not 14 get to the issue of how much money was 15 involved. 16 We already know what her position is. 17 We already know her biases and prejudices 18 and the court already has more than 19 sufficient information to determine her 20 credibility on that basis. Thank you. 21 THE COURT: All right. Any rebuttal, 22 Mr. Pope? 23 MR. POPE: Yes, Your Honor. With regard 24 to Mr. Merrett, his comment that it was 25 nickels and dimes, if it's nickels and dimes . 992 1 let's find out about that and on the question 2 of Mr. Howie's argument there are a couple of 3 instances here where her bias in favor of 4 Mr. Minton is on point. 5 One is she testified that she sent him 6 out to examine the security camera out there 7 and the other is it's pretty clear that the 8 LMT is totally financially dependent on 9 Mr. Minton and she is a salaried employee of 10 it and she is therefore totally, financially 11 dependent on him and I think we're entitled 12 to know the extent of it. 13 MR. MERRETT: Judge, if I can point out 14 one thing? 15 THE COURT: Go ahead. 16 MR. MERRETT: With respect to her 17 testimony, she actually specifically 18 testified that she didn't say anything to 19 Mr. Minton about the camera, that she told me 20 what she wanted done and she did have any 21 communication with him about it so she has 22 not testified about anything that Mr. Minton 23 is charged with doing. 24 MR. HOWIE: If I may, Your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes, sir. . 993 1 MR. HOWIE: In response, if they're 2 already established her total financial 3 dependence upon Mr. Minton to their 4 satisfaction, I hardly see why any further 5 inquiry is necessary. 6 THE COURT: Gentleman, I thank you all 7 very much for these arguments I'm. Going to 8 deny that request at this time. The per bias 9 and prejudice has been clearly put on the 10 record. As far as towards the other side, as 11 far as Minton is concerned and everything 12 else. 13 We're here on show cause on a temporary 14 injunction. These questions would probably 15 be more appropriate for discovery when this 16 is moved for a permanent injunction and I'll 17 deal with it accordingly at that time, but 18 for making a determination today or at the 19 conclusion of these proceedings regarding 20 her feelings and I think they're rather 21 strong feelings are pretty self evident and 22 there has been a lot in the record for which 23 this court can judge her credibility, 24 believability and whether she is or is not 25 telling the truth on certain answers here. . 994 1 So I'm not going to go any on this that one, 2 but I'm telling you it may not be a dead 3 issue at the discovery stage. 4 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 5 THE COURT: All right. Now, let's press 6 on. 7 MR. POPE: No further questions, Your 8 Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. MERRETT: No further questions. 11 THE COURT: Ma'am, you may step down. 12 Mr. Howie any question? 13 MR. HOWIE: No. 14 THE COURT: You may step down, please. 15 MR. POPE: Your Honor, while she is 16 stepping down we do want to reserve the right 17 to recall her perhaps. 18 THE COURT: Yeah, she's a party and I'm 19 not excusing her. I just asked her to step 20 down and she's subject to recall. Okay, and 21 let the record reflect I think that we have 22 given copies to the attorneys on both sides 23 of the business card of the additional 24 attorney that appeared here on the defense 25 side, the gentleman from France, and I have a . 995 1 that card now and I will file his business 2 card in the record and so we can go from 3 there. 4 Now, sir, next witness. 5 MR. MERRETT: Call John Enerson. 6 THE COURT: I'm going to continue him 7 under the oath that I placed him under 8 previously. 9 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, one thing I do 11 want to be sure of, the defendants out there 12 do understand that they have a right to 13 communicate with their attorneys. 14 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 15 THE COURT: My problem with that 16 incident was for as a person as the witness 17 on the stand and you can't communicate with a 18 witness that is testifying. You dod 19 understand that? 20 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 21 THE COURT: Okay. I don't want you to 22 feel that you can't come forward and talk to 23 your attorneys and if he is serving as 24 additional counsel or something else, he has 25 a right to talk to the attorneys. . 996 1 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. MERRETT: 5 Q Mr. Enerson, can you tell the court what 6 office or position you hold with the Lisa McPherson 7 trust? 8 A Yes. Absolutely none. 9 Q Can you tell the court what employment or 10 financial relationship you have with Robert Minton? 11 A Absolutely none. 12 Q Has Mr. Minton reimbursed you for 13 expenditures you made at my request for costs in this 14 case? 15 A Yes, he has. 16 Q What were those costs? 17 A Those were for exhibits for this hearing. 18 Q Okay. Other than that has he ever given you 19 any money? 20 A Absolutely none. 21 Q Have you ever picketed or protested or made 22 any public or private statement concerning Scientology 23 at the request Mr. Minton or at the request of the 24 Lisa McPherson Trust? 25 A Absolutely not. . 997 1 Q You do however consider yourself an activist 2 concerning Scientology? 3 A Very much so. 4 Q Now, let me ask you, you saw the and I'll 5 start with the videotape of yourself, Mr. Lerma and I 6 think it was Ida Camburn walking across the south face 7 of the Clearwater Bank Building? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q Down Cleveland Street? 10 A On the Cleveland Street side, yes. 11 Q Can you tell me what you were doing at that 12 time? 13 A I was walking back to the Lisa McPherson 14 Trust from picketing either over near the Coachman 15 Building or near the Ft. Harrison Hotel. 16 Q Were picketing at that time? 17 A No, I didn't consider it be picketing at 18 all. It was merely a transition or in transit. 19 Q Did you believe that what you were doing was 20 in violation of the court's injunction? 21 A No, I didn't. 22 Q Do you believe now that it was in violation 23 of the court's injunction? 24 A No, I don't. 25 Q Is there any way that -- let me ask you . 998 1 first off, have you looked at the injunction? 2 A Yes, I have. 3 Q And have you looked at the maps that ar 4 attached to the injunction? 5 A Yes, I have. 6 Q Is there any way to get from either the 7 Coachman Building or the area across the street from 8 the Ft. Harrison Hotel back to the Lisa McPherson 9 Trust without passing through an area which is on the 10 map and not colored in orange? 11 A Yes, if I was able to fly. 12 Q Other than that is there? 13 A No. 14 Q By automobile or on foot? 15 A Not by my current abilities, no. 16 Q So even if you walked ten blocks west or 17 east rather you would still have to loop around and 18 come back on the map in an unorange zone? 19 A I would think so. 20 Q Okay. Do you recall the testimony in the 21 videotape about yourself, Mr. Minton, Mr. Lerma, 22 Ms. Gogolla and it may have been me, walking along 23 Ft. Harrison Avenue adjacent to the Coachman Building 24 parking lot? 25 A Yes, I recall that. . 999 1 Q Do you recall crossing the driveway? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q Were you picketing in the driveway? 4 A No, I was not picketing. 5 Q What were you doing? 6 A I was crossing the driveway actually from 7 one orange zone to another. Normally when I picket or 8 what I consider picketing, we would walk back and 9 forth. At no time have we ever done that in those 10 demarcated areas that are not orange zones. 11 Q Let me ask you about that. The first part 12 of that videotape and the first part of the testimony 13 dealt with you, Mr. Minton Mr. Lerma, and Ms. Gogolla 14 on the north side of that of -- no, the south side of 15 that parking lot, that sidewalk along Park Street? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Were you picketing there? 18 A Yes, I was. 19 Q Were you and your companions occupying 20 essentially the same area? 21 A Yes, we were in that area for quite a while. 22 Q When you say quite a while, tell the judge 23 what you mean? 24 A I would think we were probably there 25 half-an-hour to an hour. . 1000 1 Q And were you moving back and forth within 2 that single stretch of sidewalk? 3 A Absolutely. 4 Q Is that what you consider to be picketing? 5 A That's what I consider to be picketing, 6 walking in a prescribed area or normally when I 7 picketed through all the thousands of miles of 8 videotape that Scientology has of me picketing and 9 from hundreds of cameras they have obviously seen me 10 walking back and forth, walking back and forth. 11 Q In front of Ft. Harrison? 12 A Absolutely. 13 Q Prior to the injunction? 14 A Absolutely. 15 Q Now, as you cross the driveway, did you stop 16 in the driveway? 17 A Nope. 18 Q Did you ever prior to returning to the Lisa 19 McPherson Trust did you ever turn and cross back over 20 the driveway? 21 A I don't believe I did, no. 22 Q Do you recall having made any kind of a loop 23 that included the driveway? 24 A No, I did not. 25 Q Did you believe yourself to be violating the . 1001 1 injunction as you crossed the driveway? 2 A No, I did not believe I was violating the 3 injunction. 4 Q Do you now believe that that was violating 5 the injunction? 6 A I don't believe that I did or will, no. I 7 have to be able to walk from one area to another. 8 Q Let me ask you again in order to get from 9 the -- if this is the parking lot of the Coachman 10 Building? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And let's see, this is north? 13 A That would be correct. 14 Q And these areas where I've drawn the 15 scribbles, if that's the ten feet on either side of 16 the driveway, is that a way to get from this X to this 17 X without being on the map in a place that is not 18 colored orange? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. 21 A No, there is no way. 22 Q In fact if you cross the street to the other 23 side of Ft. Harrison Avenue you're on that map and out 24 of an orange zone with picket signs -- 25 A I believe the west sidewalk of Ft. Harrison . 1002 1 Avenue is not marked orange. 2 Q Okay. Was your only purpose in going and 3 being in the driveway at all transitting from one 4 side, from one orange zone to another? 5 A That's the only thing I've ever done 6 crossing any of those zones. 7 Q Okay. Now, let me ask you about this 8 sidewalk along the south side of Ft. Harrison where 9 your picket began. Is the driveway or does the 10 driveway, the back driveway into this parking lot, 11 does it open through this sidewalk? 12 A I believe -- you know, the best of my 13 recollection this is -- a does open out from the 14 alleyway. I think the driveway actually from the 15 parking lot itself and part of the alleyway there seem 16 to be one thing there, if I recall right. 17 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. Does the 18 sidewalk come up to the edge of the alleyway? 19 A I believe it does, yes. 20 Q Okay. Is there then a driveway that opens 21 off the alley in the back of the parking lot? 22 A Yes, there is. 23 Q Did you all ever at any time during the 24 times that have been testified to, cross into this 25 driveway? . 1003 1 A No. 2 Q Did you remain on this sidewalk? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q Okay. What about your companion? 5 A I believe everyone that I was with was on 6 that sidewalk there at all times. 7 Q Okay. Now, I want to ask you if you have 8 had occasion particularly to examine -- this is the 9 Clearwater Bank Building? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And this is north here and this would be 12 Cleveland Street. Have you had occasion to make a 13 particular examination of the west side of the 14 Clearwater Bank Building from the Lisa McPherson Trust 15 down to Cleveland Street? 16 A Yes, I have. 17 Q And how did you do that? 18 A At your request, actually. 19 Q Now, is there a building or buildings 20 between the Lisa McPherson Trust and the Clearwater 21 Bank Building on the Ft. Harrison side on the west 22 side? 23 A Yes, there is. It's now referred to here at 24 the rat bait building. 25 Q Okay. What I want you to do for the court . 1004 1 is describe and we'll go in order beginning at the 2 north end and moving south, describe what is on the 3 side of the Clearwater Bank Building, okay. 4 Let's take the first stretch, the first 5 distance area. Can you tell the judge what that wall 6 looks like, what's there? 7 A It is actually a blank stucco wall or 8 concrete wall. 9 Q Okay. 10 A It's a featureless wall. 11 Q About how long is that? 12 A I'm going to estimate -- I haven't measured 13 it, but I would estimate 10, 12 feet. 14 THE COURT: You want me to take judicial 15 notice of that? 16 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 17 THE COURT: I mean, I can't tell you how 18 many years and how many times I've gone past 19 that and way back when my law office was up 20 in the West Coast Hotel building. In fact it 21 was my firm that built that or converted that 22 into law offices and I even remember when the 23 dirty theatre was across the street from the 24 wall you're talking about. I never went 25 there. I just remember the fight over . 1005 1 closing that down, long before Scientology 2 ever came to town they closed them down, so 3 let's just press on. Right, Mr. Pope? 4 MR. POPE: You're dead right, Your 5 Honor. 6 MR. ENERSON: I guess His Honor knows 7 the building better than I do. 8 THE COURT: Yeah, I know all that area. 9 I can remember a long time ago when there was 10 a fire up there in the second story of that 11 building and the Scientologists remember that 12 too, so let's just press on. 13 BY MR. MERRETT: 14 Q Eventually, did you come to a set of windows 15 that are ten feet off the ground. 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q And then there is a set of windows -- 18 A Let me correct that. I would estimate they 19 are probably about eight feet off the ground. 20 Q Then as you come down to the corner there is 21 a set of windows that is more or less eye level? 22 A Yeah, I estimate those approximately five 23 feet from the pavement level. 24 Q Can you see -- is there any particular 25 feature about those windows that affects the ability . 1006 1 to see in or out of those windows? 2 A As near as I can tell from the outside, 3 those windows are tinted and there are blinds pulled. 4 Just walking past and looking they seem to be that 5 way. 6 Q Have you ever seen those windows with the 7 blinds up? 8 A I don't recall that I ever have. 9 Q Have you ever in all the times that you've 10 been back and forth around the Clearwater Bank 11 Building been able to see into the building and see 12 people in there? 13 A No. 14 Q Okay. You were present on the night of 15 January 7 when Mr. Minton had this encounter with 16 Officer Correa and Harbert, correct? 17 A That is absolutely correct. 18 Q If this is Watterson Avenue and this is 19 Cleveland, first off I want you to tell the court 20 whether or not there was a bus here? 21 A Yes, there was. As a matter of fact there 22 were two or three buses. 23 Q Okay. Were any of the buses moving during 24 the time of the encounter? 25 A Not in the least. . 1007 1 Q Okay. Did anybody get on or off the buses 2 during the time that Mr. Minton was having his 3 encounter with the police officers? 4 A I don't recall seeing anybody. My attention 5 was focused on the encounter but what was normally my 6 observation is that when Scientologists come out of 7 their mess hall there there is a good number of them 8 filing into the buses and I would have noticed that, I 9 would think. 10 Q Okay. Did you notice that? 11 A No, I didn't. 12 Q Let me ask you this. Did you see anybody 13 out there other than Mr. Avila, Mr. Minton, the police 14 and the other members of your party? 15 A Specifically in the street? 16 Q Anywhere? 17 A On the sidewalk, yes, on the west sidewalk. 18 Q Okay. Over here? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. Now, during the time that Mr. Minton 21 had his encounter with the police, was there any 22 vehicular traffic moving on Watterson Street? 23 A None whatsoever. 24 Q Okay. Did you, yourself, step out into the 25 street at one point? . 1008 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q Did you intervene in Mr. Minton's 3 confrontation with the police? 4 A Yes, I felt that -- I did. I felt that I 5 had to. 6 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. Other than 7 Mr. Avila who was somewhere in the area with this 8 video camera, did you see any Scientologists within 9 ten feet of Mr. Minton? 10 A You know, I want to say that there was 11 another OSA videographer or camera guy there 12 somewhere. Now, whether, you know, I think there were 13 two. 14 Q Uh-huh. 15 A And his proximity, if it was closer than ten 16 feet, I'm not sure. 17 Q Was he moving around? 18 A Yeah, they were moving around. 19 Q Okay. Was there any traffic, foot or 20 vehicular blocked by this confrontation between 21 Mr. Minton and the police? 22 A No, there was no traffic moving along the 23 street at all. Normally when the buses are lined up 24 there on the west sidewalk they will pull in off of 25 Cleveland and then my observation has been that they . 1009 1 go out single file from the lead bus that way coming 2 from the west and turning in, so we were -- 3 Q Okay. Let me stop you right there. Do they 4 generally exit from the front door or the rear door of 5 the bus? 6 A I've seen both. 7 Q Uh-huh. And they proceed in what manner? 8 A Come off of the west sidewalk and walk 9 between the buses -- 10 Q Hang on a second; getting off the bus? 11 A Getting off of the bus? 12 Q Right. 13 A They exit the bus on the right side of the 14 bus, that door through there, walk around the bus onto 15 the west sidewalk. 16 Q Okay. In single file? 17 A You know, generally I've seem it that way. 18 Yeah, single file. 19 Q All right. And these buses have two doors? 20 A I can't speak for all of the buses, but I've 21 noticed a number of them do have a front and a center 22 or rear door. 23 MR. MERRETT: Okay. If I can have just 24 a second, Your Honor? 25 THE COURT: You may. . 1010 1 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took 2 place.) 3 BY MR. MERRETT: 4 Q Let me ask you if as of January 7 if there 5 was a general consensus regarding the status, among 6 activists was there a general consensus regarding this 7 status of these off-duty police officers and the 8 Church of Scientology? 9 A Yes, there was. I came to a conclusion 10 myself, but, yeah. but our consensus was that they 11 were working for Scientology. 12 Q That they were agents of Scientology? 13 A Absolutely. 14 Q And covered by the injunction? 15 A Yes. I even asked one of the officers, 16 spoke with him. 17 MR. MERRETT: Can I have just a second, 18 Your Honor? 19 THE COURT: You can have it. Take your 20 time. 21 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took 22 place.) 23 BY MR. MERRETT: 24 Q Mr. Enerson, has there been a time since the 25 injunction was entered and you became aware of it that . 1011 1 you picketed in what you believed to be an area you 2 were not allowed to picket? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you at any time knowingly or 5 deliberately violated the court's order? 6 A No. I've tried very hard to stay within the 7 court's order. 8 Q Let me ask you this. Talking about staying 9 within the court's order, are you the inventor of the 10 Threep? 11 A Yes, I am. 12 Q Can you tell the court by profession what 13 you do? 14 THE COURT: Hold on just a minute. 15 Let's get that in here. I'm sorry, it's in 16 my chambers. 17 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took 18 place.) 19 Okay. Just sit it down there on the 20 court reporter's table for now. 21 MR. MERRETT: Judge, I need to jump back 22 to another area that I omitted. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Let the record so 24 reflect that you're moving back to something 25 else. Go ahead. . 1012 1 BY MR. MERRETT: 2 Q I'm talking about the might of January 7 3 again. Were you part of the party that included 4 Mr. Minton that was originally coming south on the 5 east sidewalk on Watterson? 6 A Yes, I was. 7 THE COURT: What the date? 8 MR. MERRETT: January 7. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir. 10 BY MR. MERRETT: 11 Q Okay, and were you there when Mr. Minton 12 veered out into the road. 13 A Yes, I was. 14 Q Let me ask you if you had past those officer 15 before Mr. Minton did earlier that evening? 16 A Yes, I had. 17 Q Had the officers made some comments to you? 18 A Both officers made some comments, yeah. 19 That's originally why I went back the other way and 20 left that area. 21 Q Did you go back and tell Mr. Minton what had 22 happened and -- 23 A Right, I saw Mr. Minton walking south on the 24 same sidewalk towards us and I mentioned to him what 25 had happened. I was actually on my way back out of . 1013 1 that area. 2 Q What is it that happened? 3 A Ms. Bezazian and I and Mr. Lerma were down 4 in that area and Officers Harbert and Correa were 5 standing by the alleyway there and as we went down 6 with our megaphones and picket signs and started to 7 picket that evening I passed by the officers and I 8 don't recall which one I heard loud enough for one of 9 them to say something to the effect of -- 10 MR. POPE: Objection. I think we're 11 getting into a hearsay area. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett? 13 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, it goes to 14 state of mind, as to Mr. Minton's state of 15 mind and to the bias and prejudice of Officer 16 Harbert. 17 MR. POPE: Your Honor, Mister -- 18 THE COURT: I think that has to come 19 through Mr. Minton. Now, as far as his bias 20 or prejudice or anything -- scratch that -- 21 affected this witness, then okay. But not 22 for him to try to establish bias or prejudice 23 of Mr. Minton. 24 MR. MERRETT: No, Your Honor, I'm trying 25 to establish bias and prejudice of Officer . 1014 1 Harbert. 2 THE COURT: Okay, but what effect, what 3 did he do? What happened here? Well -- 4 MR. MERRETT: I can just leave this for 5 Mr. Howie. 6 THE COURT: Press on. Press on. 7 MR. MERRETT: That's probably the 8 easiest way. 9 THE COURT: That's what I was trying to 10 get to. 11 MR. MERRETT: May I confer just a moment 12 with Mr. Howie? 13 THE COURT: Yeah. 14 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took 15 place.) 16 I'd like to go back and talk about this 17 police incident. 18 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 19 THE COURT: All right. You, 20 Mr. Enerson, okay, you made a comment earlier 21 that you felt that the Clearwater Police 22 Department were agents of the Church of 23 Scientology; did you not say that? 24 MR. ENERSON: Yes, I did, Your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. Why did you feel . 1015 1 that way? 2 MR. ENERSON: Let me clarify, I don't 3 fell that the whole entire police department 4 was. 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Okay. Clarify. 6 MR. ENERSON: Those two officers working 7 out there on Watterson that night were acting 8 as agents of or on behalf of Scientology at 9 that time. 10 THE COURT: Why do you say that? 11 MR. ENERSON: They were, to the best of 12 my knowledge I asked one of the officers if 13 he was currently working for them and he said 14 yes. I mean originally he told me, you know, 15 this is the Clearwater Police Department 16 badge but when I pressed the issue of who was 17 he working for right then he said none of you 18 damn business. 19 MR. POPE: Your Honor, that's hearsay 20 and I move to strike it. 21 MR. MERRETT: Well, actually the court's 22 question if I may remind it -- 23 THE COURT: Yeah. 24 MR. MERRETT: Why did Mr. Enerson think 25 they were agents of Scientology? . 1016 1 THE COURT: Yeah, and I think that -- 2 MR. MERRETT: Additionally, Your Honor, 3 since the witness is obviously not trying to 4 prove that it was none of his damn business. 5 THE COURT: I understand. Press on, but 6 Mr. Enerson, other than you saying are 7 you -- what did you say, are you paid by the 8 Scientologists? 9 MR. ENERSON: I simple asked who he was 10 working for. 11 THE COURT: Working for, okay. And that 12 was all that happened that led you to believe 13 that they were agents for the Scientologists? 14 MR. ENERSON: No, Your Honor. I was 15 verbally harassed by the two officers there. 16 THE COURT: And you were in the orange 17 zone? 18 MR. ENERSON: Yes, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Had you been harassed by any 20 other Clearwater Police Department officer? 21 MR. ENERSON: Not at all. 22 THE COURT: And they've been out there 23 for over a year now in that area that I know 24 of, because last year under the prior 25 injunction these gentlemen gave me authority . 1017 1 to go and just observe what was going on out 2 there. 3 MR. ENERSON: That was the first time. 4 THE COURT: There were Clearwater police 5 officers were there. 6 MR. ENERSON: That's the first time I've 7 ever been harassed. 8 THE COURT: Has it happened subsequent? 9 MR. ENERSON: No. 10 THE COURT: What were the names of these 11 officers again? 12 MR. ENERSON: Officers Harbert and 13 Correa. 14 THE COURT: And what, Correa? 15 MR. ENERSON: I don't know the spelling. 16 THE COURT: Just those two? 17 MR. ENERSON: Just those two. 18 THE COURT: One wasn't a female, was it? 19 MR. ENERSON: No, they are both male. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. ENERSON: Officer Harbert has 22 already right testified. 23 THE COURT: No, no, I understand that. 24 All right. And that was all that led you to 25 believe that they were agents? . 1018 1 MR. ENERSON: Well, the verbal 2 harassment and then when I turned and asked 3 them, you know, who are you working for right 4 now, I said are you here on behalf of 5 Scientology or are you here on behalf of the 6 Clearwater Police Department and I was told 7 it wasn't any of my business. 8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pope. 9 Certainly you, Mr. Merrett and Mr. Howie, 10 I'll give you a chance to ask questions in 11 light of the questions I asked, okay. 12 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 13 THE COURT: When you get up here so 14 don't forget that, you all. Okay. Go ahead. 15 BY MR. MERRETT: 16 Q Let me ask this apropos to the subject 17 matter raised by the court. Have you seen what's 18 known as the police video? 19 A Yes, I have. 20 Q And you are aware that these officers have 21 been paid several thousand dollars by Scientology over 22 the previous year to act as security guards for 23 Scientology? 24 A I wasn't aware of those two particular 25 officers in any manner, just that some Clearwater . 1019 1 police have worked for Scientology. 2 Q And were you aware that they were there 3 off-duty acting as security guards? 4 A That was my understanding, yes. 5 Q And is that the basis on which you concluded 6 that they were agents of Scientology? 7 A Partially, yes. 8 Q Okay. Was it in any -- 9 THE COURT: Wait a minute. You say 10 partially yes. In light of your answer to 11 him and in light of your answer to me, where 12 is the other part of the partially? 13 MR. ENERSON: My questions to the 14 officers there on the street that night, Your 15 Honor, when I asked who they were working for 16 and they refused to answer me and said it was 17 none of your business and the way I was 18 treated I assume from that also. 19 I had seen the police video, I had seen 20 that they were paid off duty and then when I 21 was there that night and the verbal 22 harassment and when I inquired who they were 23 working for, the reaction I got led me to 24 believe that they were there on behalf of 25 Scientology. . 1020 1 THE COURT: When you said police video, 2 what are you talking about, police video? 3 MR. ENERSON: It's a video that was 4 produced by the Lisa McPherson Trust, I 5 guess, that shows some of the incidents with 6 Clearwater Police Department over the past 7 year or so showing a bias toward the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust in particular. 9 I previously had an opportunity to see 10 that video. I would think -- I don't know 11 how long. 12 THE COURT: There is a video that shows 13 police biased towards the Lisa McPherson 14 Trust? 15 MR. ENERSON: Yes, there is. 16 THE COURT: And you tell me that you 17 don't work for or have anything to do with 18 the Lisa McPherson Trust; is that right? 19 MR. ENERSON: That's correct. 20 THE COURT: Yet, you were shown this 21 video? 22 MR. ENERSON: Many people have seen it. 23 It's actually on the internet right now. 24 THE COURT: It's on the internet? 25 MR. ENERSON: Yes, it is. . 1021 1 THE COURT: What's the site? 2 MR. ENERSON: I believe it's on the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust site. 4 THE COURT: That's that site? 5 MR. ENERSON: WWW.Lisatrust.Net, I 6 believe? 7 THE COURT: Lisatrust.Net? 8 MR. ENERSON: I believe so. 9 THE COURT: What do you do, click on 10 police brutality photo or something? 11 MR. ENERSON: I think it's under LMT 12 Media or there is a search engine there that 13 I think you can search for it. 14 MR. MERRETT: Judge, I've got a copy of 15 the video if the court would like to see it. 16 I believe I do, don't I? 17 I have a copy if the court wants to 18 watch it. It's about 20 minutes long. 19 THE COURT: Well, it's certainly your 20 case, but if you're saying -- well, I won't 21 say any more, but -- 22 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. If I can 23 continue? 24 THE COURT: Continue with this witness. 25 . 1022 1 BY MR. MERRETT: 2 Q Yes, sir. Going back to where we were, you 3 are the inventor of the Threep? 4 A Yes, I am. 5 Q And can you tell the court first off what 6 the purpose of the device is? 7 A Well, the purpose of it was, you know, we 8 were discussing the injunction among several people. 9 I don't recall who, but the comment came up and there 10 had been a discussion about what are we supposed to 11 do, walk around the streets with a ten foot pole 12 trying to stay clear of the Scientologists in order to 13 maintain the court ordered distance and that's when 14 the idea I guess was born. You know, well, maybe we 15 should have a ten foot pole. Might be the best way I 16 recall during picketing in I think it was around 17 December 2 or December 3 I recall some police officer 18 somewhere saying something about a distance we had to 19 stay from a driveway or something, but my observation 20 based on my judgment it was I thought less than ten 21 feet. 22 Q Let me ask you if can describe for the court 23 the features of the Threep? First off, what does the 24 ball mark? 25 A The outside end of the ball is ten feet, . 1023 1 measures ten feet from the outside end of that ball to 2 the flashing light. 3 Q To the face -- 4 A Face of the flashing light, yeah. 5 Q Okay. And is it intended to be carried like 6 this is the right hand so that the face of the light 7 is ahead of the body? 8 A You can carry it any way you like, but the 9 idea is that the face of that light to the end of the 10 ball is ten feet. 11 Q Okay. And I'm assuming that you would not 12 represent that every feature of the Threep despite its 13 obviously utility is deadly serious? 14 A I think -- well, look at it. I think it 15 probably looks more like Dr. Seuss than anything else. 16 Q What is the -- I mean, other than the ten 17 feet, what were your other goals in designing it other 18 than marking out ten feet? 19 A Again, it's humorous. I thought it was 20 rather humorous and I guess to point out that ten feet 21 is ten feet. It's a little bit more than I assume it 22 to be sometimes, I guess. 23 Q Let me ask you this. Is there any 24 particular reason other than the pleasure or humor 25 that caused you to make it look funny? . 1024 1 A Well, yeah, my concern was when I did this 2 thing I didn't want to have some Scientologist or OSA 3 or anything suddenly use this in a video or something 4 and say, look, they're carrying a weapon, so, you 5 know, or had a weapon so I did everything I could 6 possibly do by making that thing literally scream not 7 a weapon. 8 Q And as far as the name "Threep", I think 9 it's been established that stands for what? 10 A It was originally called the Penick Picket 11 Pole. That was three Ps and the then when we spell 12 three p it became Threep. 13 Q Who came up with that name? 14 A I did. 15 Q And was that any kind of a gallop or dig at 16 the court? 17 A Absolutely not. It was -- I recall from 18 reading the previous court testimony or transcripts 19 and that or I heard it on the internet as well 20 something called Penick's Picket Chicken I guess what 21 it was referred to or -- 22 THE COURT: That was last year. 23 MR. ENERSON: Last year. 24 THE COURT: So this year we've got the 25 Penick Picket Pole. Let's see what we get . 1025 1 next year. 2 MR. ENERSON: But I never intended that 3 as a mockery or any, you know, thing like 4 that. In fact I was relieved that we 5 actually had or the judge had given us that 6 ten foot space bilaterally in the injunction 7 because I was, you know, present in some of 8 those pickets this last summer where we had a 9 great number of Scientologists gathered 10 around us, closing in on us and shoving and 11 pushing and that sort of thing so that ten 12 foot was, you know, if anything else it was 13 probably more the Threep represents gratitude 14 more than mocking the court. 15 THE COURT: Let me -- well, you said 16 something interesting there. You did. Did I 17 understand you to say that you were actually 18 glad that the court had put some sort of 19 distance between you and the other side? 20 MR. ENERSON: Yeah, Your Honor, I was. 21 THE COURT: In other words you felt 22 better with some sort of space there rather 23 than me just saying no injunction; everybody 24 go have a good time? 25 MR. ENERSON: I felt better in light of . 1026 1 some of the -- I had previously like I said 2 last summer been involved in some pickets 3 there where I had Scientologists directly 4 screaming in my face, circling around me. 5 I also testified here I guess in the 6 original injunction hearing on the attack or 7 the altercation between Mr. Minton and 8 another fellow there and having that space, 9 actually I was, you know, thought that that 10 helps us too to preserve our First Amendment 11 rights to picket and protest and protects 12 us. 13 THE COURT: So would be able to do an 14 about face with a sign without not striking 15 someone who is like I said playing Picket 16 Chicken right up behind you with a video 17 camera? 18 MR. ENERSON: That's correct. 19 THE COURT: And not have to worry about 20 getting knocked unconscious by a video camera 21 if you did 180 or so? 22 MR. ENERSON: Right. I've always tried 23 to be careful when we're picketing. I've 24 tried to not have those kind of physical 25 contacts, but certainly you can't avoid that . 1027 1 if somebody is -- you have three or four 2 Scientologists circling around you staring in 3 your face, it's awfully difficult not to come 4 into physical contact. 5 THE COURT: Okay. And you don't feel 6 that your constitutional rights or First 7 Amendment rights were stifled by having that 8 ten foot space? 9 MR. ENERSON: No, not at all. 10 THE COURT: Are you aware that the 11 injunction is being appealed? 12 MR. ENERSON: I had heard something to 13 that effect. I don't know the details of it. 14 THE COURT: Okay, but you're comfortable 15 with the space? 16 MR. ENERSON: So far I am, yes. 17 Personally, that's my personal position. 18 THE COURT: If you were the judge, would 19 you increase that space or decrease it? Are 20 you satisfied with ten feet? 21 MR. ENERSON: I'm satisfied with then 22 feet. I would hate to have to design another 23 Threep at this point, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: I understand that. Of 25 course, you know, that could be job security. . 1028 1 MR. ENERSON: I didn't get paid for 2 those, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Okay. There is a potential 4 market there. 5 MR. ENERSON: I would like to have an 6 autographed model at some point. 7 THE COURT: Move on. 8 MR. MERRETT: I have nothing further, 9 Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, you may, sir. 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. HOWIE: 13 Q Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Enerson, I 14 wanted to ask you some questions concerning the 15 incident on the evening of January 7. You've seen the 16 videotape in that case, haven't you? 17 A Yes, I have. 18 Q And it fairly and accurately depicts the 19 events that occurred between my client, Mr. Minton, 20 and the two police officers, correct? 21 A Yes, it essentially depicts what occurred 22 there. 23 Q Now, I want to draw your attention to events 24 that occurred that same evening just prior to what we 25 see to the videotape. You indicated in your testimony . 1029 1 that you had a previous contact with these two police 2 officers on Watterson, correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q And in fact was it on the east side sidewalk 5 of Watterson? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And did you know that to be an orange zone? 8 A Yes. I understood that entire sidewalk down 9 to close to the parking garage to be an orange zone. 10 Q Now, you saw where the two police officers 11 were standing on the videotape. Is that where the two 12 police officers were standing when you had your 13 contact with them before the videotape started? 14 A The two officers were originally standing by 15 the alleyway. There is an alleyway right behind that 16 building on that side of the street and they normally 17 stand that but they started out there and moved closer 18 down to where I was. I had moved south of them and 19 they moved down closer to where Ms. Bezazian and 20 Mr. Lerma and I were. 21 Q All right. Now, in the entire time prior to 22 this videotape, the entire time you remained on the 23 east side sidewalk of Watterson, correct? 24 A Oh, yes. 25 Q You didn't step out into the center of . 1030 1 Watterson or anything like that? 2 A No, I did not. 3 Q And were you attempting to obey the 4 injunction at that time? 5 A Yes, I was. 6 Q All right. Now, your contact -- what were 7 you actually doing there? What was your purpose of 8 being there at that particular time? 9 A I was picketing there. I was holding my 10 picket sign and speaking through a megaphone that I 11 had with me. 12 Q All right. And what initiated this contact 13 between you and the two police officers? 14 A As I passed by in front of them they 15 actually had their backs up to the building standing 16 on the sidewalk so I had to go between the curb and 17 the police officers there to go back and forth. As I 18 picket I go back and forth in the prescribed area that 19 I choose within an orange zone. 20 Q And how was it that you actually came into 21 communication? 22 A Passing by them they -- one of the officers 23 that I later learned to be Harbert or Correa are the 24 two names, started making comments to me. 25 Q All right. And did you respond to those . 1031 1 comments? 2 A No, I did not. 3 Q Did you say anything to these officers at 4 all at that time? 5 A At that time, no. 6 Q Now, afterwards did you have contact with my 7 clint, Robert Minton, that evening? 8 A Yes, I became concerned about the attitude 9 of the officers there and I walked north on Watterson 10 on the sidewalk and met Mr. Minton coming south on the 11 sidewalk. 12 Q And Mr. Minton was on the east side sidewalk 13 of Watterson? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And what did you tell Mr. Minton about your 16 run-in? 17 A I told him that I was afraid that these 18 officers down here were being harassing and that and I 19 thought we should get a video camera or something, you 20 know, that they were harassing us picketing down there 21 is basically what I said to him. 22 Q Okay. What did you see Mr. Minton do 23 immediately after you told him this? 24 A Mr. Minton started walking, he went walking 25 south on that sidewalk. . 1032 1 Q Now, you said you saw the videotape and in 2 the videotape is it correct that when the scene opens 3 Mr. Minton is in fact on the east side sidewalk 4 walking south? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q To the best your knowledge and belief based 7 on your personal recollection and based on the 8 videotape, does that videotape show Mr. Minton 9 immediately after you spoke to him? 10 A Yes, that was immediately after. 11 Q And did you see, did you observe, yourself, 12 Mr. Minton stepping off the sidewalk to go around the 13 police officer? 14 A Yeah, I got within I would say 10, 15 feet 15 rather than, you know, violate the injunction if they 16 were agents or working on behalf of Scientology as the 17 injunction said I would have to go around them to 18 maintain a ten foot distance. Mr. Minton went into 19 the street at that point. 20 Q As the inventor of the Threep you're 21 familiar with what ten feet is? 22 A Absolutely. 23 Q And did Mr. Minton appear to attempt to stay 24 ten feet away from these officers? 25 A Yeah, I believe he did. . 1033 1 Q Okay. And the video shows Mr. Minton 2 continuing to go in a southerly direction but in a 3 semicircle around the police officers and the video 4 shows you going up to Mr. Minton at that point when 5 the police officers confronted him. What was your 6 purpose of coming up at that point? 7 A One of the officers stepped up to, you know, 8 almost touching noses with Mr. Minton and was making, 9 you know, saying things to him that led me to believe 10 that there was a serious confrontation. 11 This officer was very provocative to 12 Mr. Minton and I intervened trying to separate the 13 two, put some distance in there, so I tried to put my 14 elbow in there but I thought it was getting way out of 15 hand. Both the officers were becoming very abusive, 16 as well. 17 Q Now, afterwards, after this verbal 18 confrontation that's shown on videotape between 19 Mr. Minton and the two police officers, what did you 20 observe Mr. Minton do? 21 A He moved away from the police officers and 22 stepped up on the sidewalk just to the south of them. 23 Q And when you say the sidewalk, you mean the 24 sidewalk on the east sidewalk -- 25 A The east sidewalk in the orange zone, yes. . 1034 1 Q And, again, just to clarify, you said that 2 when he stepped back on the sidewalk he continued to 3 be in the orange zone? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q Now, I want to ask you about some of the 6 provisions of the injunction itself. You are 7 personally familiar with the injunction? 8 A I've read it and looked at it, yes. 9 Q Okay. Now, at any time during this entire 10 incident that you have reported, did Mr. Minton come 11 within ten feet of any person you knew to be a member 12 of the Church of Scientology? 13 A Actually a Scientologist came closer than 14 ten feet with Mr. Minton. He didn't proceed toward 15 within but one did. 16 Q Can you identify that person by name? 17 A Yes, Antonio Avila. 18 THE COURT: Now, stop right there just a 19 minute please. 20 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took 21 place.) 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 BY MR. HOWIE: 24 Q Thank you. You say Antonio Avila. Were you 25 present when Mr. Avila testified in court? . 1035 1 A Yes, I was. 2 Q That's the Antonio Avila that you were 3 referring to? 4 A The gentleman in the back row over here. 5 Q During this entire incident did Mr. Avila 6 have a video camera in his hand? 7 A Yes, he did. 8 Q And at what point in this incident did 9 Mr. Avila get within ten feet of Mr. Minton? 10 A I think it was he began -- he got a lot 11 closer when the police officers closed up tight with 12 Mr. Minton and got directly in his face and he 13 approached very close with the video camera. He got 14 in I would eye guess six feet, four to six feet. 15 Q Okay. How long did that last? How long was 16 Mr. Avila within four to six feet of Mr. Minton? 17 A Not more than a minute or two. 18 Q All right. Is it your testimony that 19 Mr. Avila approach Mr. Minton, not that Mr. Minton 20 approached Mr. Avila? 21 A That's correct, yes. 22 Q Now, during the period of time that 23 Mr. Minton was temporarily out on Watterson Street 24 before resuming on the east sidewalk of the street, 25 did you see Mr. Minton block the path either of any . 1036 1 member of the of Church of Scientology or any vehicle 2 that appeared to block the Church of Scientology? 3 A No, there was no traffic on the street at 4 that time and there are no -- at that point everyone 5 on the west side of the street basically stayed over 6 there on the west side of the street. 7 Q All right. Did you see Mr. Minton get close 8 enough to any doors of any kind, whether it was a door 9 to a building or a door to a bus in such a way as to 10 block that entrance? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you see Mr. Minton harass or commit any 13 act of violence against any member of the Church of 14 Scientology that evening? 15 A None whatsoever. 16 Q To the best of your recollection did 17 Mr. Minton have a picket sign in his hand during this 18 incident you've described? 19 A I believe Mr. Minton had one of the Xenu 20 megaphones in his hand at that time. I don't recall a 21 picket sign. I believe he had at that time a 22 megaphone. 23 Q All right. Do you recall him using that 24 megaphone at any time when he was not in the orange 25 zone on the sidewalk? . 1037 1 A I think, no, I don't recall that he used 2 that megaphone. You know, I recall him using it on 3 the sidewalk, but I don't think he used it in the 4 street. 5 I think by the time he went in the street it 6 was down by his side and he was actually pointing his 7 finger and talking to the police officers at that 8 point. 9 Q All right. And from your own recollection, 10 what is your best estimate of the amount of time that 11 Mr. Minton was actually off the curb in Watterson 12 Street from the time he stepped off to avoid the 13 police officers until the time he resumed the 14 sidewalk? 15 A You could check the time stamp or something 16 on the video, but I wouldn't estimate it was more than 17 two to three minutes, my guess. 18 Q Now, returning to your overhearing the 19 comments by the police officers, you have testified 20 that it caused you enough concern to go back to 21 Mr. Minton and report to him what occurred between you 22 and the police officers, correct? 23 A Yes, I felt that we were from -- my feeling 24 was from the comments that I was hearing that we 25 might, you know, eminent threats of arrest. . 1038 1 Q What was said to you that caused you to 2 believe that you were in eminent threat of arrest? 3 MR. POPE: Objection. Hearsay. 4 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, it's a matter of 5 operative statement and it's a matter of 6 verbal conduct. It is not submitted to prove 7 the truth of the matter asserted under 8 90.801. It is meant to show what caused this 9 man to act the way he did. It was a matter 10 of imperative or interrogatory. 11 THE COURT: But he is going to get a 12 chance to address if he wants to say it 13 himself. 14 MR. HOWIE: I would also point out that 15 they're nonassertive conducts. That is as 16 the court is well aware, hearsay is a 17 statement, an assertion meant to contain a 18 fact or a truth. This is non-assertive 19 conduct by the police officers that we're 20 trying to elicit and it's relevant to show 21 why Mr. Enerson was concerned. 22 THE COURT: You may answer. 23 BY MR. HOWIE: 24 Q Go ahead and answer. What were the comments 25 made to you by either of the police officers that . 1039 1 caused you this concern. 2 A The first comment was as I passed by, what 3 are you doing out here wasting your time on Sunday 4 night for nothing. 5 The Second comment as I passed by speaking 6 through my megaphone, one of the officers said maybe 7 we should try a noise ordinance violation and see if 8 that works on him. 9 Q During this entire incident did the police 10 officers ever arrest or charge Mr. Minton with any 11 criminal act? 12 A No. 13 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I don't have any 14 further questions. 15 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pope. Let's 16 do this. Wait a minute. We've been going 17 for over an hour. Let's take a break and 18 we'll take 15 minutes. 19 Sir, Mr. Enerson, you're on the stand. 20 I'll let you get down and the bailiff will 21 show you, there are rest rooms in the jury 22 room and then come back and wait on the 23 stand. Please don't talk to anybody. 24 MR. ENERSON: May I go smoke? 25 THE COURT: Sure, I'll let you do that, . 1040 1 but when you go down and outside to have a 2 cigarette, stay by yourself just this one 3 time so nobody thinks that's there's any 4 problems, anybody slipping information or 5 trying to change your testimony, okay. 6 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after 7 which the proceedings continued.) 8 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, sir, your turn. 9 MR. POPE: Thank you, Your Honor. May 10 it please the court. 11 THE COURT: Please proceed. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. POPE: 14 Q Mr. Enerson, I believe you were served with 15 a copy of Injunction Number Two on December 1 at about 16 4:15 PM; is that correct? 17 A I don't recall what time it was, but I was 18 served with an injunction sometime during that 19 weekend. 20 Q All right. And did you throw it down or did 21 you read it? 22 A Actually I was holding a picket sign in my 23 hand. I think I glanced through it as quickly as I 24 could. I think I stuck it either in my pocket or the 25 back of my belt so I could get to a place where I . 1041 1 could study it over. 2 Q You kept it and then you studied it over, 3 didn't you? 4 A Later on, yeah, I did. 5 Q Okay. And you in fact attended the hearing 6 that led to that injunction, didn't you? 7 A Yes, I did. 8 Q And you testified at it, didn't you? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Q All right. Now, earlier in this proceeding 11 which is distinguished from the one that one last 12 fall, you, I believe were present when Officer 13 Butterfield testified regarding his conversations with 14 Mrs. Bezazian. Weren't you present when he testified 15 in here about that? 16 A I may have been, yeah. 17 Q Officer Butterfield, to refresh your memory, 18 testified about discussing the terms of the injunction 19 with Ms. Bezazian on at least five occasions; do you 20 remember him saying that? 21 A I recall his testimony now, yes. 22 Q Were you present during any of those 23 discussions between that officer and Ms. Bezazian? 24 A I don't recall that I was. 25 Q Were you present -- did you have any . 1042 1 discussions with any police officers with respect to 2 how that injunction was going to be construed? 3 A I believe on November 30 I had again gone 4 out on the streets of Clearwater earlier in that day 5 and a police officer approached me from across 6 Ft. Harrison Avenue, actually crossed the street. 7 He came up and introduced himself. I don't 8 recall his name. He said he was the duty commander as 9 I recall at that time. He told me that he was there 10 to make sure that our rights, First Amendment rights 11 and so forth were preserved as well as Scientology's, 12 that there was no confrontations or problems on the 13 street and to let me know, he would be around and that 14 was the extent of it. 15 Q Didn't you learn at some point that all you 16 had to do to stop picketing was to turn the picket 17 upside down and walk with it in that fashion? 18 A I don't recall anything in the that says 19 what I'm supposed to do with my sign, Mr. Pope. 20 Q You didn't learn from anyone else informing 21 you or from any police officer that all you had to do 22 to not be picketing was to turn the thing upside down 23 and walk with it like that? 24 MR. MERRETT: I'll object, Your Honor, 25 for relevance. The police are not the . 1043 1 authors of the injunction. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 MR. ENERSON: I had heard other 4 picketers say, you know, that some police 5 officers had told them to turn the signs 6 down, but I had never been told that. 7 BY MR. POPE: 8 Q You hadn't been told that and you didn't go 9 ask anybody about it, did you? 10 A I didn't know who to ask. 11 Q You didn't know that you could have asked a 12 police officer about that or perhaps an attorney? 13 A Well, I would have had to ask the police 14 officer to interpret the injunction, I guess, but I 15 read the and injunction and it didn't say anything in 16 there about what to do with my sign. 17 Q You would rather just take your changes, I 18 gather? 19 A I didn't think I was taking and chances. I 20 followed the letter of the injunction. 21 Q All right. So, do I understand when you 22 were transitting around that you never did turn your 23 picket sign upside down? 24 A There may have been times that I did. I 25 didn't pay a lot of attention to what I did with my . 1044 1 signs at one time or another when I was going from one 2 place to another. 3 Q You saw the video of you in front of the 4 Bank of Clearwater Building with your picket up, 5 didn't you? 6 A Yeah, it was up around my shoulder. 7 Q Yeah. It was up, wasn't it? 8 A I think it was. I think the lady in front 9 of me, Ms. Camburn too, was holding hers, Ida Camburn 10 was holding hers up also, so I guess if holding up 11 your sign is a sign that you're picketing then maybe 12 Ms. Camburn just didn't meet the altitude requirement. 13 Q Did you look over the maps that were 14 attached to the injunction? 15 A Yes, I did. 16 Q Did you note with regard the Coachman 17 Building, arrows drawn toward the parking lot that 18 says stay ten feet back from entranceways? 19 A Yeah, I noted that. 20 Q And when you were picketing over there along 21 that parking area of the Coachman Building you were 22 right in the -- you passed right in the middle of that 23 driveway, didn't you? 24 A I passed through it, yes. 25 Q All right, with your picket sign up? . 1045 1 A I don't recall where it was then. You know, 2 I don't pay attention to where I have it when I'm 3 transitting from one area to another. It may have 4 been. 5 Q You were picketing at that time with 6 Mr. Minton and Mr. Lerma and Ms. Gogolla, was she 7 along with you then? 8 A I had been picketing -- yeah, Ms. Gogolla 9 was along. Yeah, those are the people, but I had been 10 picketing on the south side of the Coachman Building, 11 the orange zone. 12 Q I'm asking you who you were with? 13 A Oh, Mr. Minton, Ms. Gogolla, I think 14 Mr. Lerma was along that day. 15 Q And you participated with other members of 16 the LMT and the picketing that weekend, didn't you? 17 A How do you mean other members of the LMT? 18 Q Well, the other people associated with the 19 LMT. Weren't you out picketing with them? 20 A How do you mean associated? 21 Q You don't understand the word associated 22 with? 23 A I would just like clarification; who is 24 associated or who is a member? 25 Q Connected in any fashion with the LMT? . 1046 1 A Mr. Minton is obviously connected with the 2 LMT. I consider the others that I probably picketed 3 with that you just named are probably not members or 4 associated with the LMT. 5 Q So as far as you know Mr. Minton is only 6 person with the LMT that you picketed with and 7 everybody else was disassociated with it? 8 A You say a member of. 9 Q I said connected with, associated with, 10 affiliated with? 11 MR. MERRETT: I'm going to object and 12 ask counsel to define the term, whether he 13 means employees, stock holders, directors or 14 if he just means people who like the LMT 15 and don't like Scientology. 16 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I use words that 17 are pretty plain in their meaning in the 18 English language. 19 THE COURT: I think a general English 20 interpretation of those words were intended 21 and I know that Mr. Enerson knows what they 22 mean and I think I understand his answer. 23 BY MR. POPE: 24 Q All right. Now, Mr. Enerson, it's been 25 established that you are the inventor, creator of the . 1047 1 Penick Picket Pole here that's before us? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q You've talked about the purpose of the pole 4 as being to give everybody a guise as to what ten feet 5 amounted to, correct? That was the main purpose of 6 it? 7 A It serves that purpose, yes. 8 Q Is that the principle purpose you had in 9 mind? 10 A Actually, yeah, that's where it started out. 11 The idea was what is ten feet. 12 Q Okay. What purpose does the horn serve on 13 the thing? 14 A That serves to notify anybody that's 15 approaching it. 16 Q So it's just like -- 17 A Or if someone is approaching the end of it 18 and you think they might run into it, to alert them. 19 Q What is the purpose of the injunction 20 handing off the tip of it? 21 A That's what states ten feet. 22 Q Okay. So it was -- you felt like you needed 23 to show people what ten feet was and hang a copy of 24 the injunction on so that they could understand why 25 this was necessary; is what it? . 1048 1 A I guess if no one has read the injunction, 2 they he could read it at a ten foot distance. 3 Q So you could dangle it front of their face 4 and they could read it if they had any questions about 5 it? 6 A Me? 7 Q Or whoever the user of the thing is? 8 A I didn't have any intent for a user to 9 dangle, as you put it. 10 Q Let's go back. Who did you intend to use 11 this? 12 A Well, obviously injunction is bilateral, so 13 anybody that's encroaching within ten feet. 14 Q Who is going to -- 15 A -- that's bound by the injunction. 16 Q Who is going to be wielding the Penick 17 Picket Pole? 18 A You know what. Anybody who chooses to have 19 a Threep can have a Threep. 20 Q Okay. And did you make more than one of 21 these? 22 A At this point, no, that's the prototype, 23 Mr. Pope. 24 Q Okay, that's the prototype right there. 25 THE COURT: Let me stop you right there. . 1049 1 You said that you conceived and produced the 2 Threep. What's your background? How did 3 you -- what do you do or what had you done in 4 the past to give you this talent? 5 MR. ENERSON: I'm a mechanical design 6 engineer, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: You are? That's what I 8 thought you would say or something or you 9 worked in Hollywood on props or something 10 like that. 11 MR. ENERSON: No, I'm just a mechanical 12 designer. 13 THE COURT: Do you have a mechanical 14 degree? 15 MR. ENERSON: No, I don't. I haven't 16 finished my degree yet but I've been working 17 in that for over 20 years. 18 THE COURT: Designing things? 19 MR. ENERSON: Aerospace engineering 20 and -- 21 THE COURT: Whoa, space engineering? 22 MR. ENERSON: Aerospace engineering and 23 mechanical design engineering. 24 THE COURT: Where is your primary place 25 of employment? . 1050 1 MR. ENERSON: I'm self-employed at this 2 point right now. I contract my services out 3 for different companies that require 4 mechanical design engineering. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Where did you get the 6 parts? 7 MR. ENERSON: Wal-Mart. 8 THE COURT: Really? 9 MR. ENERSON: Everything came from 10 Wal-Mart. 11 THE COURT: How did you get ten feet of 12 what? What is all that? 13 MR. ENERSON: It's actually an 14 extendable fishing pole. 15 THE COURT: That's an extendable fishing 16 pole you get at Wal-Mart? 17 MR. ENERSON: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 19 BY MR. POPE: 20 Q And I suppose if you wanted to economize you 21 could just gut up a bunch of lengths of ten foot cane 22 pole and pass those out too if ten feet was your 23 object, correct? 24 A I couldn't hazard to guess the price, 25 Mr. Pope. . 1051 1 Q I didn't ask you to hazard to guess at the 2 price. 3 A Well, you asked me if I was going to 4 economize. I don't know. I didn't make a cost 5 differential study of a cane pole versus what I built. 6 Q Wouldn't you suppose that a piece of cane 7 pole is a little cheaper than this device you've got 8 here? 9 A As I said, I haven't priced cane poles 10 versus that. 11 Q You just don't have any idea, do you? 12 A Well, you know, to add everything to a cane 13 pole that I h ave on that, I suppose, I don't know. 14 Q All right. 15 A Again, I would think that a cane pole by 16 itself could be construed as a weapon and I certainly 17 didn't want that to be in any way something that could 18 harm someone, so I felt it necessary to add on all the 19 other accustrements that you see on the Threep. 20 Q Do you understand, Mr. Enerson, why a 21 reasonable person might conclude that there is 22 ridicule and mockery built into your Penick Picket 23 Pole? 24 A I don't thing a personable person would, 25 Mr. Pope. I think they see the humor in it. . 1052 1 Q This is simply a humorous joke; is that 2 right? 3 A No, it serves the purpose of ten feet, but 4 it also if you look at it it does look funny. 5 Q So it's a funny thing that serves a useful 6 purpose? 7 A I think that's probably an apt description. 8 Q Okay. Now, let's talk about the police 9 incident on January 7. You indicated that you had had 10 a preliminary encounter with the police in which they 11 made statements to you. You were out there at the 12 time with a megaphone, weren't you? 13 A Yes, I was. 14 Q And were you speaking and yelling through 15 the megaphone at the time? 16 A Yes. I was. I was yelling no OTs there. 17 David Miscavige is a squirrel, RTC is squirrelling the 18 tech. Compare the old volumes to the new. Things of 19 that nature. 20 Q How long had you been out there on Watterson 21 Street yelling with your megaphone? 22 A Approximately -- well, to what point? 23 Q Before the episode with Mr. Minton began? 24 A Before the episode with Mr. Minton or the 25 episode with the police officers? With Mr. Minton, . 1053 1 before the time I left and went back? 2 Q Yeah. 3 A I'm going to guess 10, 15 minutes maybe. 4 Q So you had been out there 10 or 15 minutes 5 yelling through your megaphone and at that point the 6 police made their remarks to you? 7 A Yeah, and my picket sign up too, with me. 8 Q Okay. You were picketing and yelling 9 through the megaphone. At that time the police made 10 their remark to you, right? 11 A Yeah. Well, the first remark was probably 12 about five minutes into it. The second remark was 13 maybe ten minutes into it. 14 Q And one of the remarks was that something to 15 the effect that maybe we should try a noise ordinance 16 violation? 17 A Yeah, that's correct. 18 Q Okay. And you were at that time making 19 noise through your megaphone, right? 20 A Not at the time he said that. 21 Q You had been up to point he said that? 22 A Up to that point, yes. 23 Q For ten or 15 minutes, right? 24 A Maybe ten minutes. 25 Q All right. . 1054 1 A But not constantly. Just comments here and 2 there. 3 Q And of course you didn't yell anything at 4 all toward the police that was provocative, did you? 5 A No, I did not. 6 Q Okay. Now, you went back and reported what 7 the police said to Mr. Minton, correct? 8 A I think reported in kind of an incorrect 9 characterization. 10 Q You told him about it? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Is that better? Is that more to your 13 liking? 14 MR. MERRETT: I'll object to the 15 argument and his tone and words. 16 MR. POPE: I think we get the -- 17 THE COURT: Move to, move on, move on. 18 BY MR. POPE: 19 Q You told Mr. Minton of what had happened, 20 right? 21 A Yes, I met him walking south on the sidewalk 22 and I was walking north and I said I was upset. 23 Q And he and you came back out onto Watterson, 24 right? 25 A That's correct. We were still on Watterson. . 1055 1 Q And he had his megaphone with him, right? 2 A I think he may have taken the megaphone that 3 I had. 4 Q Did you get another one? 5 A I don't recall. I think the megaphone was 6 passed around between some people. 7 Q At any rate he had a megaphone at that time, 8 right? 9 A I think so. 10 Q And he was yelling at the police telling 11 them that they were agents of Scientology, correct? 12 A As he came down the sidewalk I think that 13 the video shows that he did. 14 Q Right. He was essentially with his 15 megaphone, protesting their alleged connection with 16 Scientology, wasn't he? 17 A I think he was protesting, yes. 18 Q And he then went out into the street, 19 correct? 20 A To circle around the officers to stay ten 21 feet away, yeah. 22 Q Went out into the street and all of a sudden 23 this episode began between the officers and 24 Mr. Minton, correct? 25 A That is correct. . 1056 1 Q And you yelled something along the lines of 2 Bob, Bob, Bob, didn't you? 3 A As I was interceding when the officers got 4 directly in Mr. Minton's face, almost nose to nose and 5 was threatening Mr. Minton saying some things 6 provocative to him, challenging him. That's when I 7 tried to intercede and just pull Bob away. 8 I didn't know the officer's name or I would 9 have spoken to him too, to put some distance between 10 them and back off. 11 Q And was Mr. Minton by any chance saying 12 anything provocative to the officer? 13 A I don't know what I would characterize as 14 provocative. He was only own saying, you know, you 15 guys are working for Scientology. 16 Q So -- 17 A If that's provocative to it, then -- 18 Q So you would agree then that I think that 19 the videotape of that transaction would probably be 20 the best evidence of the exchange of words and events 21 that occurred then, wouldn't you? 22 A Of that portion of it, probably. 23 Q Okay. But you don't think, you don't recall 24 as you sit here today that Mr. Minton said anything at 25 all provocative to those police officers; is that . 1057 1 correct? 2 A Well, it depends on what the officers 3 considered provocative. I mean my opinion was that I 4 considered what the officers were saying the 5 Mr. Minton to be extremely provocative. 6 Q Well, let's -- 7 A And the tape doesn't catch that. 8 Q Let me ask you this. Did you hear what 9 Mr. Minton said to the officers? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q If he were right in your face saying that to 12 you in anger would that provoke you? 13 A That I was an agent of Scientology? 14 Q No, no, no a little bit later on, out in the 15 street, the profanity, the swearing, the F-word. You 16 heard that, didn't you? 17 A I've heard it. 18 Q Was that provocative to you if it were right 19 in your face? 20 A I've had that in my face from Scientology, 21 Mr. Pope. 22 Q Would you answer my question? Did you 23 consider it provocative when it came from the 24 Scientologists? 25 A I considered it to be provocative, yeah, I . 1058 1 guess I would. 2 Q Okay. So would you concede that what 3 Mr. Minton said to the police then was provocative? 4 A I'll concede that. It's provocative. 5 Q All right. Now, how many times have you 6 picketed the Scientologists in Clearwater in the last 7 year-and-a-half? 8 A Oh gosh, you know, I've have to estimate 9 maybe 12, 15 times. I'm going to guess. I don't 10 know. I have counted actually. 11 Q And you live in Pasco County? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q That where you have your business? 14 A That's correct, my home. 15 Q So when you want to picket, what do you do, 16 drive down to Clearwater to do it? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q When you come the Clearwater do you usually 19 stop into the LMT before the picket? 20 A I haven't every time, but most of the time I 21 stop in to see whose there. 22 Q And you usually stop in after the picket 23 too, don't you? 24 A Yes, usually there's been occasion where 25 I've brought sodas with me and left them in the . 1059 1 refrigerator. They let me chill those there or they 2 will offer me something, drink of water of something. 3 Q And when you hae picket on those occasions 4 have other people left the LMT Building with yo to go 5 picket? 6 A Oh, yeah. 7 Q Okay. So it's kind of a joint enterprise 8 with you, correct? 9 A A joint enterprise? 10 Q Yeah, the go as a group to picket, correct? 11 A Well, yeah, there is a group of people that 12 go as a group to picket, that's true. 13 Q You mentioned some expenses that had been 14 reimbursed to you and I'm not sure I caught that. 15 Could you tell me what expenses have been reimbursed 16 to you by either LMT of Mr. Merrett? 17 A For some court exhibits for here. 18 Q For here? 19 A For this trial, yes. 20 Q Okay, and how many total dollars -- 21 A I'm sorry -- yeah, for this trial here. 22 Q How many total dollars worth of exhibits or 23 any dollars worth of reimbursement have you received 24 either from LMT or Mr. Merrett? 25 A $80. . 1060 1 Q All right. 2 A That was expenditures that I made that they 3 reimbursed me for. 4 MR. POPE: No further questions. 5 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett. 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. MERRETT: 8 Q You were asked some questions about whether 9 it was provocative to get in somebody's face cussing. 10 Could you make it clear for the court who got in whose 11 face that night on Watterson Street. 12 A It was Officer Harbert who got directly in 13 Mr. Minton's face. 14 Q Did Mr. Minton at any time pursue or close 15 with the officers? 16 A Actually, no, Mr. Minton was in the street. 17 The officers came off the sidewalk toward Mr. Minton 18 and got nose to nose with him. 19 MR. MERRETT: If I can have one second. 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 BY MR. MERRETT: 22 Q You mentioned in response to one of 23 Mr. Pope's questions that the video didn't catch what 24 the police officers were saying to Mr. Minton. What 25 were they saying? . 1061 1 A Officer Harbert was in Mr. Minton's face 2 saying something to the effect of touch me, go ahead 3 and touch me. I dare you. 4 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have 5 anything further. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 7 MR. HOWIE: Nothing further, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right. Sir, you may 9 step down and have a seat out there. 10 Ladies and gentlemen, this is a real 11 good time. Let's break for lunch. It's 12 12:00 exactly. Let's see you back here at 13 1:30. 14 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, may I make a 15 request. I'm afraid I don't know his name 16 because I don't understand French inflection 17 very well. One of the French journalists has 18 asked if it is permissible for them to 19 interview Mr. Pesenti in the courtroom while 20 the court is in recess. 21 I told them obviously it is, as he 22 appreciated, that it's the court's courtroom 23 and that it's entirely up to you. 24 THE COURT: I'm concerned -- 25 MR. POPE: We're all planning to leave . 1062 1 our stuff in here and thought that the 2 courtroom was going to be secured. 3 THE COURT: Yeah. 4 MR. MERRETT: Is there maybe another -- 5 THE COURT: There are empty courtrooms I 6 can let him use. 7 MR. MERRETT: That would be wonderful. 8 THE COURT: Yah. We can open up the one 9 over here. I'm sure it's totally empty. 10 Nothing is going on. It's a courtroom. 11 We'll put the lights on and you cane 12 interview him, okay. This one we'll secure 13 and formally let me say welcome to all of 14 you, to him. I wish somebody had introduced 15 to me to Mr. Pesenti beforehand rather than 16 letting me meet him the way I met him, but -- 17 MR. MERRETT: That was m oversight, Your 18 Honor, and I apologize to both of you. 19 THE COURT: Okay, but they're welcome. 20 And, we'll open up another courtroom so they 21 can do it. 22 MR. MERRETT: Thank you. 23 THE COURT: Now, remember if -- sir, in 24 they get rough with you, I don't have 25 anything to do with that. I don't know how . 1063 1 your press is. The ones over here, you just 2 don't talk to them. Let's go ahead. 3 (Thereupon, a lunch recess was taken, after 4 which the proceedings continued.) 5 End of Volume VIII 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25