1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION
3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235
7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume II
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24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR February 9 & 10, 2000 25
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1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609
5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602
9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 12 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 13 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 14 Tampa, Florida 33602
15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: 19 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI Robert P. Polli, P.A. 20 Trombley & Hanes 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265
21 Tampa, Florida 33602
22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 23 Mr. Jesse Prince Ms. Lara Cartwright 24 Mr. Michael Rinder Mr. Kendrick L. Moxon 25 Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (Via Internet)
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1 I N D E X
2 Volume II
3 WITNESS PAGE
4 Called by the Plaintiff:
5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG
6 CROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG.......... 229
7 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 399
8 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 400
9 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE......................... 401
10
11 EXHIBITS
12 Defendant's Exhibit No. 1...................... 254
13 Defendant's Exhibit No. 2...................... 273
14 Defendant's Exhibit No. 3...................... 276
15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 4...................... 295
16 Defendant's Exhibit No. 5...................... 354
17 Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7............... 379
18 Defendant's Exhibit No. 8...................... 384
19 Defendant's Exhibit No. 9...................... 386
20 Defendant's Exhibit No. 10..................... 386
21 Defendant's Exhibit No. 11..................... 390
22 Defendant's Exhibit No. 12..................... 390
23 Defendant's Exhibit No. 13..................... 393
24 Defendant's Exhibit No. 14..................... 394
25
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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION
3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235
7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume II
12 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the
13 Trial Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young, upon oral
14 examination in the above?styled cause, for the
15 purposes of use at trial and for all other purposes
16 as are permitted pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil
17 Procedure, proceedings therefor were held before
18 Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered Professional
19 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary
20 Public in and for the State of Florida at large, at
21 220 East Madison Street, 12th Floor Conference
22 Room, Tampa, Florida, on February 9, 2000,
23 beginning at 9:40 a.m.
24 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by
25 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector.
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1 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were
2 had and taken:
3 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness
4 by the Plaintiff, having been previously duly
5 sworn, continued to testify as follows:
6 CROSS?EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q. Mr. Young, this is the cross?examination
9 of your trial deposition that was taken. Do you
10 understand that?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. TITUS: Before we proceed, I'd like to
13 make sure it's clear on the record that we're
14 not waiving any objections that we have made
15 in the past with respect to Mr. Young's
16 testimony.
17 MR. HANES: And additionally, on behalf
18 of Janis Johnson, I'd move to strike his
19 entire direct examination of trial testimony
20 as it relates to Ms. Johnson for the same
21 objections stated in the deposition.
22 MR. WEINBERG: And we've set that forth I
23 think pretty clearly, Ken, at the time of your
24 direct.
25 MR. DANDAR: That's right.
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1 Q. All right. Mr. Young, you never met Lisa
2 McPherson, did you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You didn't know her, did you?
5 A. Not personally, no.
6 Q. You never talked to her?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You were not personally in Clearwater,
9 Florida, in November or December of 1995, were you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. In fact, you were in Seattle, Washington
12 then, weren't you?
13 A. Probably.
14 Q. And you had not been to Clearwater,
15 Florida prior to your appearance in this case a
16 couple of months ago for over ten years, right?
17 A. Perhaps.
18 Q. Now, you were not with anyone, including
19 Lisa McPherson, at the Fort Harrison Hotel in
20 November or December of 1995, were you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You never visited Lisa McPherson at her
23 job at AMC Publishing, did you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You were not her friend?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. You have never spoken to any of her fellow
5 workers at AMC, have you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You were never on staff at Flag, were you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You never met with Lisa McPherson's
10 mother, Fannie McPherson, did you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You don't know Janis Johnson, do you, one
13 of the defendants in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You've never talked to her, have you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You don't know Alain Kartuzinski, one of
18 the defendants in this case, correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And you've never talked to him, have you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And you don't know David Houghton, one of
23 the defendants in this case, do you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And you've never talked to him, have you?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. You have no idea, you don't know, where
3 David Miscavige was in November or December of
4 1995, do you?
5 A. Not percipiently, no.
6 Q. When you say percipiently, you don't have
7 any personal knowledge, that's what you mean by
8 that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, and you have no personal knowledge,
11 no percipient knowledge, using your term, as to
12 what occurred with regard to Lisa McPherson in
13 November or December 1995, do you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, you and your then wife, Stacy Young,
16 were hired as consultants by Mr. Dandar in this
17 case almost three years ago, in 1997, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You and your ex?wife, Stacy, had left the
20 Church of Scientology, the staff of the Church of
21 Scientology sometime in 1989, is that right?
22 A. No.
23 Q. '88?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What year?
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1 A. She was not my ex?wife.
2 Q. Oh, I see. So the ?? she became your
3 ex?wife in what, 1998?
4 A. Well, that's the phrase you like to use.
5 The question was ?? we left in '89, to answer your
6 question.
7 Q. So you and Stacy left the Church of
8 Scientology in 1989, right?
9 A. We left as staff, yes.
10 Q. And you haven't served as staff in the
11 Church of Scientology since 1989, have you?
12 A. (Shaking head.)
13 Q. You have not taken any auditing or
14 training at the Church of Scientology since 1989,
15 have you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And as far as you know, Stacy hasn't
18 either, has she?
19 A. As far as I know.
20 Q. You haven't performed for anyone else
21 auditing services since you left the Church of
22 Scientology in 1989, have you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And as far as you know, Stacy hasn't
25 either, has she?
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1 A. As far as I know.
2 MR. DANDAR: Vaughn, could you speak up
3 just a little bit?
4 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
5 Q. Now, since 1993, or thereabouts,
6 virtually all of the money that you have earned has
7 come from testifying against the Church of
8 Scientology, hasn't it?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Well, the ?? you haven't held a job since
11 1993, have you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you held a job other than acting as a
14 consultant with regard to cases against the Church
15 of Scientology?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that job is as what?
18 A. Well, we covered it last time. I was
19 helping to build an archive for most of the last
20 year.
21 Q. Oh, I see. So ?? we'll get to that. So
22 that it's clear, another former Scientologist who
23 works against Scientology by the name of Brian
24 Haney employed you and gave you lodging and gave
25 you money with regard to putting together you say
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1 documents concerning L. Ron Hubbard who founded
2 Scientology, right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So the archive had to do with what?
5 A. Which archive?
6 Q. That you said you were employed in the
7 last year to put together.
8 A. It was an archive of material related to
9 L. Ron Hubbard.
10 Q. And L. Ron Hubbard is the person who
11 founded Scientology and whose works are the basis
12 of the beliefs of Scientology, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the person that employed you to do
15 this with regard to the founder of Scientology is a
16 man named Brian Haney, right?
17 A. He retained me but I just hesitate at
18 employ so there is no sense of usual employment,
19 but retained.
20 Q. Well, except that remember my question was
21 you haven't held a job since 1993 other than with
22 regard to Scientology, and you said yes, I have, I
23 did this archive, and I said, oh, the one where
24 Mr. Haney employed you and you said no. So what
25 you're saying now is that, yes, it was Mr. Haney
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1 and it did have to do with L. Ron Hubbard, correct?
2 A. Your question was buried in there with one
3 of those have you stopped beating your wife. You
4 said anti?Scientology, so I had to respond to the
5 exact question. It was not an anti?Scientology
6 project.
7 Q. Mr. Haney is a pro?Scientology, correct?
8 A. You'd have to ask Mr. Haney.
9 Q. Well, you know that Mr. Haney has
10 contributed to people like you to protest against
11 and work against Scientology, you know that, don't
12 you?
13 A. He's not ??
14 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
15 A. He's not contributed anything to me to
16 protest, no.
17 Q. Now, other than this situation that we'll
18 get to in a while where Mr. Haney employed you,
19 retained you, using your words, to put this archive
20 together with regard to L. Ron Hubbard, is there
21 any other job other than being a consultant in
22 cases involving Scientology that you have had since
23 1993?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that job is what?
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1 A. I was doing some writing and consulting in
2 Germany.
3 Q. And the writing and consulting in Germany
4 had to do with the Church of Scientology, didn't
5 it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the ?? what is Der Spiegel?
8 A. Der Spiegel is a magazine.
9 Q. Right. It's a magazine that has done
10 stories, anti?Scientology stories over the years,
11 correct?
12 A. I don't know, sir.
13 Q. Oh, you know that, don't you?
14 A. I don't read it. I don't speak German.
15 Q. Okay. You have talked to German ?? to
16 reporters and writers from Der Spiegel with regard
17 to their views of Scientology, haven't you?
18 A. Just one.
19 Q. Right. And Der Spiegel, just so that it
20 is absolutely clear, paid you $20,000 to write an
21 anti?Scientology piece, didn't they?
22 A. No.
23 Q. They paid you $20,000, didn't they?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when was it that they paid you
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1 $20,000?
2 A. What was that? 1994, '95, somewhere in
3 there.
4 Q. You wrote a pro?Scientology piece?
5 A. No. I just wrote the facts.
6 Q. You wrote an article that was very
7 negative with regard to your former religion,
8 Scientology, correct?
9 A. No.
10 Q. It was very positive as to your former
11 religion, Scientology?
12 A. No. It was just the facts and a person
13 can make up their mind. It was about the Snow
14 White program in 1977, et cetera. A person can
15 make up their own mind.
16 Q. The ?? other than the $20,000 ?? oh, how
17 long was this article that you wrote that you were
18 paid $20,000 for?
19 A. In words or pages? I don't know.
20 Q. Pages? How much of the magazine did it
21 fill up?
22 A. I don't recall. It was maybe eight pages.
23 Q. Not bad.
24 A. Well, with photographs.
25 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Let's not be
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1 argumentative. I was hoping we'd do your
2 cross like you did the other cross.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Just make your objection.
4 MR. DANDAR: Don't be argumentative.
5 MR. WEINBERG: No, that's not an
6 objection. The objection is objection,
7 argumentative. Okay?
8 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Don't be giving me
10 instructions, okay?
11 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
13 MR. DANDAR: Off the record, I hope we
14 don't get there. Okay?
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q. Now, wasn't it actually five pages?
17 A. It might have been. There was also, as I
18 say, photographs.
19 Q. Photographs that you did?
20 A. No. There is artwork, so when you asked
21 me how long was the article, with photographs I was
22 just trying to guess.
23 Q. Now, in addition to the $20,000 that you
24 received for this five?, six?, seven?, eight?page
25 article, and the money that we'll get to that you
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1 received from Mr. Haney for the ?? oh, the article
2 about Scientology and the money that you received
3 from Mr. Haney for the L. Ron Hubbard archive, is
4 there any other job that you have had since 1993
5 other than as a consultant with lawyers in cases
6 against Scientology?
7 A. I don't remember the year but I think it
8 was ?? it might have been '93 that I was working at
9 a newspaper also.
10 Q. There came a point in time when you didn't
11 work for the newspaper anymore and what you did was
12 act as a consultant in cases involving Scientology,
13 didn't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. And whenever that was, since
16 then the only nonconsultant job that you've had is
17 to get $20,000 from Der Spiegel for an article
18 about Scientology and work with Mr. Haney for ??
19 that had to do with L. Ron Hubbard who founded
20 Scientology, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
23 Q. The bulk of the money that you have
24 received since whenever this was in 1993, when you
25 no longer were a reporter, has come from the cases
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1 that you have worked on as a consultant involving
2 Scientology, right?
3 A. I think that would be accurate.
4 Q. And the same ??
5 THE WITNESS: Am I still speaking too
6 softly for the back?
7 MR. HANES: It would help if you would
8 speak up some, sir.
9 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q. Now, the same is true for Stacy as to the
12 fact that from whenever it was in 1993, as long as
13 you were with Stacy, she did not have any other job
14 other than as a consultant ?? that paid money other
15 than as a consultant involving Scientology?
16 A. Possibly. She ?? we had our own income,
17 so I wouldn't ask her about work, but that might be
18 accurate.
19 Q. You have lived off your anti?Scientology
20 consulting since 1993, 1994, haven't you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Well, since 1993, since whenever it was
23 you started, you have prepared at least 23
24 declarations or affidavits in cases involving
25 Scientology, is that right?
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1 A. Perhaps. I don't have a count.
2 Q. Well, you have been deposed, given
3 depositions, in a number of cases involving ??
4 MR. DANDAR: Let me make sure. Is
5 Mr. Moxon, has he made an appearance on the
6 record since he wasn't here last time?
7 MR. WEINBERG: We can state that.
8 MR. DANDAR: Kendrick Moxon for the
9 Church of Scientology.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Can you tell us what he
11 just wrote there, Ken? I don't think that
12 that happens in court, that witnesses go
13 writing notes to lawyers on cross?examination.
14 MR. DANDAR: Right.
15 MR. WEINBERG: So can you read for the
16 record ??
17 MR. DANDAR: He's worried about
18 Mr. Rinder smirking, so we'll see. We'll see.
19 If it goes on, we'll just put the video camera
20 on him.
21 MR. WEINBERG: What's going to happen is
22 that this is a tactic from your side, Ken, and
23 Mr. Rinder isn't smirking and it's a tactic.
24 MR. DANDAR: If you're looking at me,
25 Sandy, how would you know?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Because I know. I've been
2 at these depositions and I know it's a tactic.
3 I know what you're trying to do is disrupt ??
4 what he's trying to do is disrupt
5 cross?examination.
6 A. I wrote a note. That's why I'm trying ??
7 Q. You can't write a note.
8 MR. DANDAR: That's why he wasn't
9 disrupting.
10 Q. You can't be ??
11 A. It's my ?? I'm sorry. It's my mistake.
12 I was ?? I'm used to depositions where I can write
13 notes, so I just thought I'd be just courteous
14 about it and he read the note.
15 Q. Now, you have also been deposed in a
16 number of cases, including this case, where you
17 have acted as a consultant against Scientology,
18 right?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You haven't been deposed in a number of
21 cases involving Scientology?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Oh, but your problem with that answer is
24 that ?? is against Scientology, you don't view your
25 work as against Scientology?
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1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. You have written many, many affidavits
3 that were very negative as to your former religion,
4 correct?
5 A. There were negative comments but not
6 negative regarding the religion.
7 Q. Not negative regarding the religion?
8 A. I wouldn't think so, no.
9 Q. Now, you have ?? you gave testimony in a
10 variety of cases, including the FACT Net case and
11 the Abelson case and the Sterling case and the
12 Fishman case and the Dickerson case and this case,
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You have written declarations in all of
16 those cases and others, right?
17 A. Possibly. I won't argue with it.
18 Q. And in many cases you've written more than
19 one declaration?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you've been paid for every bit of time
22 that you spent with regard to this testimony and
23 the preparation of affidavits and declarations
24 against Scientology, correct?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. So you are doing this free?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, the people that you were ?? the
4 people or entities that you were testifying for
5 were suing Scientology, weren't they?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So FACT Net was in litigation with
10 Scientology, yes or no?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Wollersheim was in litigation with
13 Scientology, yes or no?
14 A. Yes. Dickerson didn't sue Scientology.
15 Q. So in any of the cases that you have been
16 testifying in, were the people that you were
17 working for suing Scientology?
18 A. Not all of them.
19 Q. I said any of them.
20 A. No. You said those.
21 Q. No, I didn't. I said any of them. I said
22 in any of the cases were the people suing
23 Scientology, yes or no?
24 A. Well, whatever. We've got it clarified
25 now.
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1 Q. All right. So the answer is yes, right?
2 A. There has been both suing and nonsuing.
3 Q. And you were paid for your services,
4 weren't you?
5 A. Not all the time.
6 Q. Well, let's take the FACT Net case.
7 That's a case that you and Stacy were consultants
8 in, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you and Stacy were paid $5,000 a month
11 for a six?month period from the fall of '96 through
12 March of 1997, correct?
13 A. That might be accurate.
14 Q. Might be accurate or is that accurate?
15 A. I don't have dates in front of me.
16 Q. But isn't that what you testified to, that
17 you received $5,000 a month, you and Stacy, for
18 around a six?month period?
19 A. It might have been. I'm not going to
20 contest it is my point.
21 Q. And then received ?? so that was around
22 $30,000 in a six?month period and then you received
23 another $4,000 later in the year resulting from the
24 bankruptcy?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Do you remember that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So that's 34 or so thousand dollars in the
4 FACT Net case and you were paid for being a
5 consultant, which included doing declarations and
6 giving testimony, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were also paid over $33,000 for your
9 work in the Fishman case, weren't you?
10 A. That might be the amount. I don't contest
11 it.
12 Q. And you were paid again for your work as a
13 consultant which included doing declarations and
14 testimony, right?
15 A. As well as consulting, yes.
16 Q. And that ?? the money in that case came
17 from Lawyer Graham Berry, right, the Fishman case?
18 A. From the firm.
19 Q. Right. And the money in the FACT Net case
20 came from what lawyer, Tom Kelly?
21 A. I don't recall. I think for a while it
22 was coming from Mr. Kelly's firm.
23 Q. But it came from a law firm, right?
24 A. I think ?? I believe Faegre & Benson.
25 Q. Okay. You also did work and were paid by
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1 the Cahill Gordon firm, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What case was that?
4 A. That was a case that was brought by
5 Michael Baybak against Time magazine.
6 Q. And it involved Scientology, didn't it,
7 the church was on the other side?
8 A. Well, he ?? it was in the Time magazine
9 article which was about Scientology and it involved
10 his business practices, so it wasn't directly
11 Scientology, no.
12 Q. Baybak is a Scientologist?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the lawyers that you were dealing with
15 were lawyers that ?? on the other side that
16 frequently represent the Church of Scientology,
17 correct?
18 A. I believe so. I never met with the
19 attorneys.
20 Q. Well, were you ?? and you were paid what,
21 some $23,000, $24,000 by the firm in that case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Well, you received at least $15,000 from
24 Cahill Gordon, didn't you?
25 A. Perhaps so. I don't remember the amount.
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1 It was not that much. It was nowhere near anything
2 like the FACT Net and the others but maybe $15,000.
3 Q. And that was in 1996 that you received
4 that money?
5 A. That might have been correct.
6 Q. Now, you've ?? we've talked about the Der
7 Spiegel article which was in '96, is that right,
8 that you were paid the $20,000?
9 A. '95 or '96, yes.
10 Q. In this case you've received over what,
11 $7500?
12 A. Something like that.
13 Q. Are you owed more money?
14 A. I suppose, with your holding me down here
15 for this depo, I would be.
16 Q. Well, do you know how much?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you have any idea how much you've been
19 paid actually by Mr. Dandar?
20 A. No, no, I don't.
21 Q. How much has Stacy been paid by
22 Mr. Dandar?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Did you testify at some point that you
25 were owed ?? that you had received $15,000 plus in
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1 the Baybak case and were owed another 9600 or so
2 dollars?
3 A. I might have.
4 Q. Were you paid the additional $9600?
5 A. I might have. I really don't pay that
6 much attention to those things.
7 Q. It's not that important to you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Even though it's your only basic way to
10 support yourself during this period of time, is
11 from the consulting?
12 A. No, it's really not that important.
13 Q. Okay. Now, were you paid by the German
14 government to talk to them about Scientology?
15 A. No.
16 Q. They financed your trips over to Germany,
17 is that right?
18 A. I don't know who financed it.
19 Q. Well, you didn't pay for it?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And they had to do with Scientology?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So somebody just ?? a ticket just showed
24 up at your door one day?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Well, you don't have any idea who paid for
2 the ticket?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Somebody in Germany?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you know what the German government
7 thinks about the Church of Scientology, correct?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. It's not a very good relationship, is it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, you have never been declared or
12 accepted by any court as an expert, have you?
13 A. Not yet.
14 Q. Now, you know that Robert Minton has
15 funded this lawsuit by the Estate of Lisa McPherson
16 against the Church of Scientology, you know that,
17 don't you?
18 A. I've been told that. I don't know
19 anything about it.
20 Q. Well, you have read ?? strike that.
21 You've been told by Mr. Minton that he's ?? that
22 he's given, by his own public statements, over
23 $400,000 to Mr. Dandar to fund this lawsuit, you've
24 been told that, haven't you?
25 A. No. No.
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1 Q. You've read that though?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And you know that Mr. Minton has been
4 funding this lawsuit since October of 1997, do you
5 know that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You don't know that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, you were retained by Mr. Dandar
10 somewhere in the June '97 time frame, is that
11 right?
12 A. Perhaps. That might be the time period.
13 Q. Now, you do know Robert Minton, don't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. He bought you and Stacy a $247,000 house
16 on an island outside of Seattle in October of 1997,
17 didn't he?
18 A. No.
19 Q. In October of 1997, you and Stacy were
20 living in a rented house, is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In west Seattle?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In 1995 you and Stacy had filed for and
25 been declared bankrupt, correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As of that time in late 1995, you
3 basically had no assets, correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Well, we can get out the bankruptcy
6 petition but my recollection is you had basically
7 nothing in the bank, correct?
8 A. Well ??
9 Q. Do you want to get out the petition and
10 look at it?
11 A. If you want to use your time to do it,
12 it's your ??
13 Q. No, no, no, no. We have plenty of time.
14 A. Fine, let's do it then. I'm easy.
15 MR. DANDAR: If you let him answer the
16 question, you may not have to do that.
17 THE WITNESS: I know. He has to ?? he has
18 his own questions. Oh, Mr. Hertzberg. It's
19 his nickel.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q. You remember in your discovery deposition
22 that we went over your bankruptcy in 1995, right?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And we put into evidence in that
25 deposition the various documents that had been
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1 filed by you and Stacy and we marked them as
2 Exhibit 5 to your deposition, and so let me show
3 you Exhibit 5. We'll mark it as Defendant's
4 Exhibit ?? we'll mark it as Defendant's Exhibit
5 Number 1.
6 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 1 was marked for
7 identification.)
8 Q. Now, look at Defendant's Exhibit 1. You
9 do recognize that as the package of documents that
10 you identified in your deposition which relate to
11 the September 1995 bankruptcy filing of you and
12 Stacy, right?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. And if you turn to the schedules, you will
15 see a schedule that sets forth your assets. Okay?
16 That's Schedule A.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. It's actually Schedule 1. Do you see
19 that?
20 MR. DANDAR: What page is it on?
21 A. Schedule ??
22 Q. Here, I'll show you. Right there.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. That shows your assets and your
25 liabilities and it shows that you have no personal
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1 ?? no real property, right, because you didn't own
2 a house or anything, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that continued to be the case after
5 the bankruptcy, you didn't own a house either, did
6 you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You had ?? you listed $12,000 plus of
9 personal property, so that your total assets were
10 $12,000 and you showed $60,000 in liabilities, and
11 if you went to the next page, the personal property
12 schedule, it broke down what that ?? what those
13 $12,000 was and, essentially, it was $539 in a bank
14 account ?? bank accounts, and some isolated items,
15 including two Mac computers, which I think you
16 acknowledged last time really were old and not
17 worth very much, correct?
18 A. As far as resale value.
19 Q. Right. So that when I said that as of the
20 time of your bankruptcy you essentially had no
21 assets, after you look at this as of the time of
22 the bankruptcy, you essentially had no assets, did
23 you?
24 A. No.
25 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
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1 A. The statement says exactly what it says.
2 MR. DANDAR: Argumentative.
3 A. I had assets. I had computers. Those
4 are my assets.
5 Q. You didn't have anything in the bank, did
6 you?
7 A. I had some money in the bank.
8 Q. Right. What, $539?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Okay. Now, you ??
11 A. It's more than I had in the Sea Org.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
13 responsive.
14 Q. Now, you, after that, you then became
15 engaged in some of the cases that we've talked
16 about, in particular, the FACT Net case, right,
17 after the bankruptcy?
18 A. No, I was already ?? I was already ?? I
19 had already been working on the Fishman case. We
20 were already doing consulting work.
21 Q. I said some of the cases, including the ??
22 you were engaged in the FACT Net case after your
23 bankruptcy?
24 A. It might have been afterwards. I just
25 wanted to clarify ??
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1 Q. You were engaged ??
2 A. I just was trying to clarify the work did
3 not start after the bankruptcy.
4 Q. You were engaged by Mr. Dandar after the
5 bankruptcy?
6 A. Yes sir.
7 Q. And the Der Spiegel money happened right
8 after the bankruptcy, is that right?
9 A. Might have been right after.
10 Q. Okay. So that at the time of your
11 bankruptcy you and Stacy were in need of cash, were
12 you not?
13 A. Cash would have helped.
14 Q. The $20,000 from Der Spiegel was the most
15 money that you had made in a couple of years,
16 wasn't it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Minton arrives in your life in
19 what, August, September, October of 1997, right?
20 MR. DANDAR: Objection.
21 A. Possibly September, October, August.
22 Q. Now, I ask you the question, now, you
23 claim to have not known him before he called you,
24 is that right?
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. And you claim that he called you and you
2 didn't even want to take his call at first, is that
3 right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And eventually you talked to him and he
6 agreed to purchase a house for you and Stacy,
7 correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What is wrong with that question? He
10 didn't buy a house for you and Stacy?
11 A. No. I did not discuss that with him.
12 Q. Now, following the conversation that you
13 had with Mr. Minton, you and Stacy embarked on a
14 house hunting search on Vashon Island with a
15 realtor, didn't you?
16 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And you did it, you and Stacy, with
19 the authority of Mr. Minton, the man that you had
20 not known before he called you a few weeks before,
21 is that right?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You were looking for a house for him to
24 pay for, were you not?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You were looking ?? now, you were living
2 in a rental house in west Seattle, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You did not have the funds to purchase a
5 house in October of 1997, did you?
6 A. Possibly not. As I said before, I'm a
7 veteran. I don't know. I've never investigated
8 that.
9 Q. Well, how much money did you and Stacy
10 have in the bank in October of 1997 before
11 Mr. Minton called you?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. At the most, a few thousand dollars?
14 A. Possibly.
15 Q. All right. Not enough to make a down
16 payment on a $247,000 house, right?
17 A. Not immediate but one has resources.
18 Q. Now, you didn't have a job other than your
19 consulting in October of 1997, did you?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And Stacey didn't either, did she?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Minton ?? Mr. Minton ?? oh, you
24 actually went out and found a house that you and
25 Stacy told Mr. Minton that you would like to move
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1 into, didn't you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, did Mr. Minton buy a house in Vashon
4 Island for $247,000 in October 1997 that you and
5 Stacy moved into?
6 A. No.
7 Q. The reason you say no is that we're
8 playing this game that we had in the last
9 deposition that it's actually Mr. and Mrs. Minton
10 that bought the house, is that the reason that you
11 say no?
12 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. Move to
13 strike. It's argumentative.
14 Q. Is that the reason? Is that the reason
15 that you say no?
16 A. You pushed the document in front of me.
17 It's right on the documents of your exhibit. They
18 bought it and they owned it.
19 Q. All right. So ?? just so it's clear, you
20 never talked in your entire life with Mrs. Minton,
21 did you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The only person you dealt with was Robert
24 Minton, right?
25 A. I never discussed the house with
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1 Mr. Minton.
2 Q. So you just, by some sort of what, osmosis
3 got the sense from Mr. Minton that it was okay to
4 go out there and shop for a $247,000 house for him?
5 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Well, then ?? and you never ever ever, in
8 October of 1997, had any conversation with
9 Mr. Minton about purchasing the house?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And, of course, you had nothing to do with
12 the purchase of the house either, did you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You didn't look at the house before it was
15 bought?
16 A. I looked at it.
17 Q. Okay. You went with a realtor?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Stacy was with you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You didn't sign any of the real estate
22 closing documents, did you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You didn't sign any documents that had to
25 do with the sale of the house, did you?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Or the purchase of the house, did you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Because you had nothing to do with it?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And the reason that you had nothing to do
7 with it was because you were about to be deposed by
8 the Church of Scientology on or about November 5th,
9 1997, in the FACT Net case, is that the reason that
10 you had nothing to do with it?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Because you were concerned that it would
13 come out in the deposition and make you look biased
14 or prejudiced, right?
15 A. I didn't know how it would come out since
16 we didn't know what was happening at the time.
17 Q. Wasn't it your concern and the concern
18 that was expressed by Mr. Minton that if you were
19 directly associated with this purchase, that it
20 would look bad for you as a witness in the FACT Net
21 case?
22 A. I never discussed that with him at all.
23 Q. You never discussed it with Stacy either,
24 right?
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. Now, have you reviewed Mr. Minton's
2 testimony where he said precisely that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, you're not suggesting to the jury,
5 are you, that you had no idea that Mr. Minton was
6 going to pony up a lot of money to buy a house for
7 you and your wife to live in, you're not suggesting
8 that to the jury, are you?
9 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
10 A. I don't understand your question.
11 Q. Well, are you suggesting to the jury as
12 you sit here today that in October of 1997, when
13 you were out with your wife, Stacy, shopping for
14 houses out of your price range, that you didn't
15 have some idea that Mr. Minton was going to give
16 you the money to buy the house for you to live in?
17 A. She had given me that impression, that he
18 was ?? but it was not money to us, no, we were not
19 going to get any money.
20 Q. You were just going to be the
21 beneficiaries of it?
22 A. No. The cats were going to be the
23 beneficiaries of it. That's why we had to move.
24 Q. So that it's clear to the jury, you and
25 Stacy, in or about July of 1997, incorporated the
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1 Friends of the Animal Foundation, which you say was
2 a cat sanctuary, right?
3 A. Yes, primarily.
4 Q. Okay. And you and Stacy had cats that you
5 would take care of at your west Seattle rented
6 house, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it's your testimony that Mr. Minton
9 called up one day, out of the blue, and said he
10 wanted to help you and Stacy with regard to the
11 cats, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Not with regard to your work against
14 Scientology, but with regard to the cats?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Okay. And then ?? and by the way, you
17 had, at that time, I'm talking about when you were
18 in the west Seattle house, you had about how many
19 cats?
20 A. Maybe 15.
21 Q. Okay. You had 15 cats, and Mr. Minton,
22 who you didn't know at that time, is that right?
23 A. Never heard of him.
24 Q. You had not read about him on the
25 Internet?
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1 A. I had never seen or heard his name, didn't
2 recognize his name when he told me who he was.
3 Q. So Mr. Minton called up and said I want to
4 help you get a new home for these 15 cats, right?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I want to help you get a better home for
7 these 15 cats?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I want to help you get a more luxurious
10 home for these 15 cats?
11 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
12 Q. What, he said I want to help you with the
13 cats?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Well ??
16 A. I testified what it was.
17 Q. But you know what, you know what, that's
18 in a deposition for discovery and we're in trial.
19 Okay? So we don't ?? you know, you have to forget
20 about that and you've got to answer my questions.
21 Okay?
22 A. I understand.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. DANDAR: He is answering your
25 questions.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, not very ?? not very
2 well but ??
3 MR. DANDAR: Because you ask the wrong
4 questions.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, Ken ??
6 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to get in an
7 argument with you. Go ahead.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Please don't.
9 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
11 MR. DANDAR: You know what you're doing.
12 MR. WEINBERG: That's good.
13 MR. DANDAR: If you don't want to ask the
14 right question, that's your business.
15 MR. WEINBERG: That's good.
16 Q. All right. Now, these cats ?? strike
17 that.
18 Mr. Minton told you and your wife Stacy
19 that he wanted to buy a house so that you could
20 move the cats into this new house, right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The ?? somehow you got the sense that
23 Mr. Minton was willing to pay a lot of money to buy
24 a house so that you could move the sanctuary to
25 another house, right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now ?? and somehow you got some sort of
3 sense as to what price range he was willing to
4 provide money for, right?
5 A. No. That was Stacy's.
6 Q. All right. Well, y'all were married at
7 the time, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You were living together at the time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You had conversations with each other,
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. You and Stacy were having
15 conversations with Mr. Minton, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Both you and Stacy were consultants in
18 cases against Scientology, right?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And the problem with that is they weren't
21 cases against Scientology, they were cases
22 involving Scientology?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Now ?? and so that ?? and the reason that
25 Stacy was doing the talking primarily rather than
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1 you was because of the concern about this
2 deposition that was going to take place in one of
3 the Scientology cases in a few weeks, right?
4 A. That, and the sanctuary was basically hers
5 to figure out.
6 Q. Except that, we'll go through it in a
7 little while, you were the president of the
8 sanctuary, weren't you?
9 A. Of the corporation.
10 Q. Right. So that ?? and when you went
11 looking, y'all didn't look at $50,000 houses, did
12 you?
13 A. I don't know the price ranges of what we
14 looked at and turned down.
15 Q. Well, you know that when you go on Vashon
16 Island, we're not talking about $50,000 houses, you
17 were looking at houses in the range of $200,000 to
18 $300,000, weren't you?
19 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
20 Q. Weren't you?
21 A. I might have been. The price range was
22 not the point. It was whether or not it was a
23 facility for the cats.
24 Q. Well, it's the point if the guy that's
25 going to fund it is only willing to go for a
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1 $50,000 house as opposed to a $350,000, right, I
2 mean that does make a difference, you wouldn't want
3 to waste your time looking at houses that were way
4 more than what he would spend, would you?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. All right. So that it was your belief
7 that Stacy had had a conversation with Mr. Minton
8 that gave her a sense of the price range that you
9 should be looking in, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that price range was in the $200,000
12 to $300,000 price range, wasn't it?
13 A. I have no idea. I had no idea what the
14 value of the house was that we were ?? the houses
15 we even looked at. We never asked.
16 Q. In any event, y'all got a realtor to go
17 around with you and you found this house, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the house cost $247,000, correct?
20 A. Correct, but I didn't know that at the
21 time.
22 Q. And you didn't know that because you had
23 stayed out of the negotiation process, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Stacy was doing that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So Stacy had been authorized by Bob Minton
3 to talk to the ?? through the realtor, with the
4 sellers to establish the purchase price, is that
5 right?
6 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
7 A. I don't know what she established with
8 them.
9 Q. Well, Bob Minton didn't come to Washington
10 and negotiate the purchase price, did he?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Mrs. Minton certainly didn't come to
13 Washington and negotiate the purchase price, did
14 she?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. The person ?? the people that were there
17 were you and Stacy, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Nobody else was looking at the house?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Okay. So y'all picked this house and
22 Mr. Minton agrees to a price which happens to be
23 $247,000, right?
24 A. I don't ?? I don't know. As I said, I
25 wasn't there, so I can't concede to those
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1 questions. I can tell you what happened.
2 Q. And then you moved what, at the end of
3 October, in that time period, you moved the 15
4 cats, you and Stacy into this house that Mr. Minton
5 bought, right?
6 A. No. No.
7 Q. You didn't move with the 15 cats?
8 A. Yes, we did move.
9 Q. So what's wrong with my question?
10 A. The house was bought by Mr. and
11 Mrs. Minton.
12 Q. Mr. and Mrs. Minton, I see. Mrs. Minton,
13 the person that you never ever talked to with
14 regard to any of this, right?
15 A. Mrs. Minton whose name is on the deed.
16 Q. Now, you and Stacy ?? you and Stacy did
17 move into the house, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the cats moved into the house? No?
20 They moved outside? They moved into the yard?
21 A. No.
22 Q. They moved into a structure that was
23 outside the house?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Well, then what was the hesitation?
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1 A. Well, there was a downstairs, which was an
2 unfinished open basement that was not formally part
3 of the house but there was ?? that I was working on
4 to make it. So, that's why I was just being
5 hesitant. It was the house technically but it
6 wasn't the living area.
7 Q. And this was a what, five?acre house?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How many acres?
10 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
11 You're asking the size of the house?
12 Q. A five?acre lot.
13 A. A five?acre house would be pretty big.
14 Q. Well, I'll withdraw that question. This
15 was a five?acre piece of real estate on which there
16 was a house, right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. How many acres was it?
19 A. Oh, I think it was like two point
20 something or other, maybe, just a couple of acres.
21 Q. Just hold on one second. Now, you do
22 remember, and I'll refresh your recollection, that
23 we put into evidence in your deposition documents
24 from the house closing, correct?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And I'll show you what was marked as
2 Defendant's Exhibit 4 and ask you ?? and we'll have
3 the reporter ?? we'll mark this as Defendant's
4 Exhibit 2 for the trial.
5 MR. WEINBERG: If that's okay, Ken.
6 MR. DANDAR: Which one is this?
7 MR. WEINBERG: This is the deed, yeah.
8 MR. DANDAR: Closing statement?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
10 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 2 was marked for
11 identification.)
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q. What I'm going to do is we'll ?? can you
14 identify that as the closing statement for the
15 house which indicates on it, among other things,
16 that it was a $247,000 purchase price?
17 MR. DANDAR: His question is can you
18 identify the document.
19 A. I can't identify the document since I
20 never saw the original. All I can just do is ??
21 this is a worse copy than the other one.
22 Q. No, that's the one we showed the last
23 time.
24 A. It looks worse than the last one. Most of
25 this is illegible.
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1 Q. It's aging.
2 A. I can't even ?? I can't even ??
3 MR. DANDAR: That's a copy of the exhibit,
4 isn't it?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
6 A. Okay. There is a purchase price of
7 247 ??
8 Q. Thousand?
9 A. Yeah, to Robert and Therese Minton.
10 Q. Okay. Now ??
11 A. But, as I say, I can't identify it since
12 I've never seen it until you showed it to me.
13 Q. Except that in this Exhibit 2 you can
14 identify an addendum that was done with regard to
15 this purchase because you signed it and Stacy
16 signed it, correct?
17 A. This was after we moved in and after the
18 purchase on a final inspection.
19 Q. That's your signature, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that's Stacy's signature?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So you did have something to do with the
24 acquisition of the house, did you not?
25 A. No.
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1 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
2 Q. Well, you certainly ?? you lived in the
3 house after this?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you lived in it for what, another
6 almost year or so?
7 A. Year and a half, I don't know.
8 Q. Now, at the same time that Mr. Minton
9 authorized you and Stacy to go find a house that he
10 could buy, he also gave you and Stacy $50,000 in
11 cashier's checks, didn't he?
12 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, in October of 1997 the Youngs
15 received $50,000 in cashier's checks from
16 Mr. Minton, did they not, sir?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Stacy Young received in a cashier check
19 form two $10,000 cashier's checks in October of
20 1997 from Mr. Minton, didn't she?
21 A. That's what you allege.
22 Q. That's what I allege?
23 A. I never saw the checks until you showed me
24 in the deposition.
25 Q. All right. So let's have this marked as
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1 the next exhibit, which is Exhibit 3, which was
2 also marked in the deposition, and ask you if this
3 is what you were just referring to.
4 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 was marked for
5 identification.)
6 Q. Do those appear to be three cashier's
7 checks in October of 1997 totalling $50,000?
8 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm going to object and
9 move to strike your question because one of
10 them is not to Stacy Young or Mr. Young.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike all you
12 want to, Ken.
13 Q. Is that right?
14 A. That's what I was referring to.
15 Q. Okay. Now, these checks, by the way, were
16 produced to us by Mr. Minton during his deposition
17 in response to questions with regard to funds that
18 had been provided to the Youngs. Okay? Now, let
19 me have you look at the bottom two checks, two
20 checks dated October 6th, 1997, in the amount of
21 $10,000. Do you see those?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Those are made payable to Stacy Young,
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Now, Stacy never told you that she
2 received $20,000 in checks from anyone in October
3 of 1997?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Y'all had two bank accounts, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember your bank account
8 increasing somewhat in October of 1997?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you have any idea why Mr. Minton would
11 have given Stacy, your wife, two $10,000 cashier's
12 checks in October of 1997?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And did it have anything to do with the
15 Church of Scientology and the work against the
16 Church of Scientology?
17 A. The word Scientology had never been
18 discussed with him.
19 Q. So that when Mr. Minton called you on the
20 phone in whenever it was, the beginning of October,
21 September 1997, and said he had heard about you,
22 read about you on the Internet, he didn't mention
23 Scientology?
24 A. I don't remember him mentioning it. He
25 just said I heard that you guys are having trouble
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1 with the cats, is there any way I can help.
2 THE WITNESS: What's the matter Moxon?
3 Q. Go ahead.
4 MR. DANDAR: Let's not laugh at the
5 witness. All right?
6 THE WITNESS: He was just shaking the
7 head.
8 Q. Just go ahead. Just go ahead.
9 A. And he said, you know, I hear you had some
10 trouble, can I help you? And I said, well, thanks
11 a lot, you know, because I, you know ?? there is
12 always people that call in. I said thanks a lot,
13 hung up and just disregarded it, and a few days
14 later got another call: Any way I can help you
15 out? No thanks.
16 I had made a posting to the Internet about
17 our situation, the attack that had been levied
18 against us, and I assumed that it was in response
19 to that but that wasn't discussed.
20 Q. Well, let's just be clear here. The
21 posting was on one of the websites that had to do
22 with Scientology, did it not?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What was it on?
25 A. It wasn't a website.
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1 Q. Was it on the alt.religion?
2 A. It was on alt.religion Scientology, yes.
3 Q. All right. And that is a site, or
4 whatever you want to call it, that people that rant
5 against Scientology visit frequently, isn't it?
6 A. And rant against the others. It's an open
7 freeboard of discussion.
8 Q. And it's basically about Scientology?
9 A. Well ??
10 Q. Yes?
11 A. Mostly.
12 Q. Okay. And just so it is clear, this
13 posting that you posted accused the Church of
14 Scientology of trying to interfere with your cat
15 sanctuary, that was the accusation?
16 A. I might have said it that way. I know it
17 was Department 20 but that might have been the
18 accusation.
19 Q. And when Mr. Minton called you with regard
20 to this alt.religion posting, you knew that you
21 were receiving a call from someone who was
22 sympathetic to your battle and work against
23 Scientology, didn't you?
24 A. No. That's why I hung up on him.
25 Q. Well, eventually he convinced you that he
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1 held the same views that you did about Scientology,
2 right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So he just decided to give you ?? to buy a
5 $247,000 house to help fit 15 cats in?
6 A. He and his wife bought the house.
7 Q. He and his wife decided to spend $247,000
8 to help support 15 cats, that's your testimony?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And he and his wife decided to give your
11 wife $20,000 in cashier's checks to help the cats?
12 A. I don't know how the checks came about.
13 That was my testimony.
14 Q. Well, you obviously didn't get the benefit
15 of this $20,000, you didn't have it, did you?
16 A. It didn't come to me.
17 Q. Well, let's look at the ?? do you have the
18 exhibit in front of you? What is the Friends of
19 the Animal Foundation?
20 A. It was the formal organization that came
21 off of the work that we had been doing for about
22 another two years before that, which was for
23 rescuing animals and for educational purposes,
24 animal rescue work.
25 Q. These 15 cats that you had, you had with
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1 regard to the Friends of the Animal Foundation?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Some of them were personally and privately
5 ours.
6 Q. All right. So a few of the cats were
7 personal cats and the other cats were ?? came to
8 you through this operation, right?
9 A. Well, it's poorly worded but I'll
10 basically say yes.
11 Q. Okay. The Friends of the Animal
12 Foundation, I asked you last time, was not exactly
13 rolling in dough, so to speak, in October of 1997,
14 correct?
15 A. That's an opinion that you can ?? that's
16 an argumentative opinion.
17 Q. All right. Well, let's make it less
18 argumentative then. In October of 1997, did the
19 Friends of the Animal Foundation have any cash in
20 any account that you know of?
21 A. Yes, I'm sure it did.
22 Q. And I believe your prior testimony was it
23 would have not been very much cash at that time,
24 correct?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. No, that's not correct?
2 A. No. I'm just saying that not very much is
3 always an opinion. I can ?? if you want to ask me
4 how much, I can respond specifically.
5 Q. Did you have $50,000 in an account?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you have $30,000 in an account?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you have $10,000 in an account?
10 A. Probably not.
11 Q. Okay. And you would get donations from
12 people, solicit donations from people with regard
13 to the cat sanctuary, didn't you?
14 A. Some were solicited and some were just
15 volunteered.
16 Q. Right. Those donations were relatively
17 small donations, weren't they?
18 A. Most of them.
19 Q. They did not ?? they were ?? no one that
20 you were aware of donated more than $1,000, did
21 they?
22 A. Not that I recall, no.
23 Q. And the checks usually were in the range
24 of 25 to 50 bucks, weren't they?
25 A. Most of them, except when adoptions would
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1 occur, then we would move into more than that, but
2 general donations ran that but, otherwise, it would
3 be $150, $200.
4 Q. People would donate food for the cats?
5 A. Sometimes.
6 Q. I mean it was a fairly low?budget
7 operation because you ?? because you were
8 essentially running it out of your home, correct?
9 A. No. It was low?budget because it was a
10 small operation.
11 Q. Now, did the house get ?? and you and
12 Stacy, by the way, were devoted to the Friends of
13 the Animal Foundation, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It was important to both of you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You cared for it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It meant a lot to you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It was what Stacy, in addition to
22 consulting against Scientology, it's what she was
23 basically doing with her time at the time, working
24 on the sanctuary, right?
25 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
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1 A. No.
2 Q. So she wasn't working on the sanctuary?
3 A. She was working on the sanctuary.
4 Q. And she was also engaged in consulting
5 work in cases involving Scientology that she was
6 being paid for?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now, if you look at the check here
9 on Exhibit 3 ?? 3 or 2?
10 A. 3.
11 Q. 3, the first one says Friends of the
12 Animal Foundation. Now, you recognize that as your
13 foundation, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It says October 6th, 1997, and it says
16 $30,000. Now, is it your testimony that you don't
17 know anything about a $30,000 check being given to
18 the Friends of the Animal Foundation of which you
19 were the president in October of 1997?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Do you think that this is another one of
22 these things that your wife and Mr. Minton didn't
23 want to tell you about prior to your November 5th
24 deposition?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Can you account for how it is that you did
2 not know until I took your deposition a few weeks
3 ago that Mr. Minton, in October of 1997, had given
4 $30,000 purportedly to the Friends of the Animal
5 Foundation?
6 A. Because I never kept track of any of the
7 finances on the FAF.
8 Q. Did y'all ?? did there come a point in
9 October of 1997 where the bank account had $30,000
10 in it?
11 A. I was not balancing the books.
12 Q. Who did that?
13 A. Stacy.
14 Q. Well, did there come a point in October of
15 1997 when y'all were into some sort of major
16 capital expenditures for the 15 cats that you had?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And those major capital expenditures were
19 what?
20 A. We were doing ?? trying to improve the
21 downstairs to make that the primary habitat, and
22 since it was just basically open 2 x 4, there were
23 places where I was putting up dry board and
24 separating out large kennel areas, trying to make
25 kennel areas in the downstairs, putting in doors,
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1 putting ?? enclosing the downstairs ?? how do you
2 call it? There was a deck, a cement area
3 downstairs that you could walk out on. Getting
4 that enclosed so the cats could go outdoors to the
5 ?? so they could have outdoor air and could get to
6 it. So there was quite a bit that I was personally
7 doing to improve the sanctuary.
8 Q. You did it yourself?
9 A. Most of it. I ?? most of it, yeah.
10 Q. So it's not that you hired a local
11 contractor to do it?
12 A. As I said, most of it. Somebody had to
13 come in and pour some cement for me for some steps
14 but I was doing it.
15 Q. All right. So you spent how much for this
16 improvement in Mr. Minton's downstairs?
17 A. It wasn't Mr. Minton's downstairs.
18 Q. Excuse me. Mr. and Mrs. Minton's
19 downstairs, how much did you spend on this
20 improvement for Mr. and Mrs. Minton's downstairs?
21 A. I have difficulty with the question,
22 Mr. Weinberg. If you want to ??
23 Q. Well, how much did you spend for this
24 improvement for the cats?
25 A. I suppose personally I remember writing
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1 checks for maybe totalling out maybe $1,000 myself,
2 which was for, you know, wiring, 2 x 4's, things
3 like that.
4 Q. All right. And you wrote them out of the
5 foundation checkbook?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But you didn't notice in the checkbook
8 that the balance had suddenly become $30,000
9 bigger?
10 A. It wasn't that kind of checkbook.
11 Q. What kind of checkbook was it?
12 A. Just a ledger, you just wrote a check and
13 made the entry.
14 Q. Well, did you ask Stacy do we have the
15 money, Stacy?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. She said of course?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. But she didn't tell you about the $50,000
20 that she had just received from Mr. Minton, she
21 didn't tell you about that?
22 A. $50,000 didn't go to FAF.
23 Q. Well, she didn't tell you about the
24 $30,000 to the foundation or the $20,000 to her,
25 right?
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1 A. Right.
2 Q. Mr. Minton never said anything to you
3 about it?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Minton ?? oh, by the way, prior
6 to this time, Mr. Dandar had come to Seattle in
7 your rented west Seattle home to meet with both you
8 and Stacy, correct?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Mr. Dandar never met ?? oh, strike that.
11 When you were living in west Seattle before this,
12 Mr. Dandar had met you in Seattle, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So he had been to Seattle and met with you
15 as his consultants before Mr. Minton ever called
16 you, is that right?
17 A. Yes, as our potential consultants.
18 Q. Now, you were communicating with
19 Mr. Dandar, you and Stacy were communicating with
20 Mr. Dandar throughout the summer and fall of 1997,
21 were you not?
22 A. Not really.
23 Q. Well, we've got some of the correspondence
24 that we can put in that Mr. Dandar gave us before.
25 There were various communications where he would ??
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1 he came out what, twice?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That you met with him? And then there
4 were materials that he sent you that you looked at,
5 right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And there were some letters that you
8 received from him, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. It was just a matter of, as I said in
12 deposition, it was mainly me doing it. That's why
13 I said ?? I hesitated.
14 Q. Oh, Okay. So you were communicating, not
15 so much Stacy, but you were communicating with
16 Mr. Dandar during that period of time?
17 A. Most ?? most of it was me.
18 Q. Okay. Now ?? and during any of those
19 communications with Mr. Dandar did he tell you that
20 Mr. Minton had just given him $100,000 in October
21 of '97?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And did you tell Mr. Dandar that
24 Mr. Minton ?? can I finish this question and then
25 we'll take a break?
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1 A. Yes, please.
2 Q. Just a couple of questions. Did you tell
3 Mr. Dandar that Mr. Minton and his wife had bought
4 you a $247,000 house to live in?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And did either you or Stacy, as far as you
7 know, tell Mr. Dandar that Mr. Minton had provided
8 you or the foundation a total of ?? you being the
9 Youngs, or the foundation a total of $50,000 in
10 cash during that period of time?
11 A. When I met with Mr. Dandar in Seattle, I
12 had never even spoken to Mr. Minton. It would be
13 impossible to relay that information. Nothing had
14 happened.
15 Q. You were talking to Mr. Dandar throughout
16 the fall, correct?
17 A. You asked me ?? you said you were going to
18 do one question and I could get ?? I could take a
19 break.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Fine. We'll take a
21 break.
22 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a break.
23 (Recess.)
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q. Now, by October of 1997, when Mr. Minton
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1 bought the house and issued these checks which are
2 in Defendant's Exhibit 3, the FACT Net retainer
3 checks, monthly retainer payments, were over,
4 correct?
5 A. No.
6 Q. But in October of 1993 you were no longer
7 getting $5,000 a month on FACT Net, correct?
8 A. I don't remember the dates exactly but
9 that could be correct.
10 Q. Well ??
11 A. I won't argue it.
12 Q. Okay. I mean, in fact, according to your
13 prior testimony, those payments, those monthly
14 payments, had ended in or about March of 1997,
15 right?
16 A. That's probably right.
17 Q. There was one later payment of $4,000 out
18 of the bankruptcy court but that was after the
19 monthly retainer payments stopped, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So that in October of 1997 you were not
22 getting any monthly retainer checks from any law
23 firm with regard to any work, were you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You were getting some sporadic payments
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1 from Mr. Dandar but it was only at that point a few
2 thousand dollars, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Prior to Mr. Minton, in or about October
5 of 1997, the only source of income at that point in
6 time, October of 1997, that you and Stacy had was
7 this case, the McPherson case and the consulting
8 work with Mr. Dandar, correct?
9 A. I don't understand your question.
10 Q. Before Mr. Minton appeared on the scene,
11 whenever that was, and let's say the beginning of
12 October 1997 ??
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Before he appeared on the scene, at that
15 point in time the only income that you and Stacy
16 had was from the consulting arrangement that had
17 just begun with Mr. Dandar in the McPherson case,
18 correct?
19 A. I'm sorry. I really don't know if that is
20 correct. I remember that but I don't know when ??
21 when ??
22 Q. When what?
23 A. When the New York work stopped, et cetera,
24 so for the purpose of moving on, I don't mind
25 accepting it for the moment. I just don't remember
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1 if there was another case that was pending
2 somewhere.
3 Q. Okay. Now, prior to the break I believe
4 that you acknowledged that you were the president
5 of the Friends of the Animal Foundation, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And Stacy was the director?
8 A. I believe she was the vice president.
9 Q. And Mr. Minton was a vice president,
10 wasn't he?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Mr. Minton was never the vice president?
13 A. No.
14 Q. While you were president was Mr. Minton
15 the vice president?
16 A. Not that I know of.
17 Q. You know that there came a point in time
18 when there were ?? was an application made for tax
19 exempt status for the foundation?
20 A. I lost your question. Can you give it to
21 me again?
22 Q. As the president of the Friends of the
23 Animal Foundation, you know that the foundation had
24 certain obligations with regard to reporting,
25 right?
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1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. And you also know that there came a point
3 in time where the foundation sought tax exempt
4 status?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And there was a petition filed with the
7 IRS?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And various information had to be
10 disclosed as to the foundation and what it was all
11 about and what it did and the money that it had and
12 who the directors and officers and all that were,
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And on that ?? on those filings with the
16 IRS, Mr. Minton was listed as the vice president,
17 wasn't he?
18 A. He might have been. I frankly don't
19 remember it. I ?? it's not a matter for me to
20 hide. The documents are easily found.
21 Q. Easily found because they are a matter of
22 public record?
23 A. Yeah, public record. I'm sure you've got
24 them.
25 Q. Do we have a paper clip anywhere? Let me
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1 show you what we'll mark as the next exhibit, 4.
2 MR. WEINBERG: It's got yellow highlights
3 on it, Ken, and we'll provide a nonyellow ?? I
4 think in copying it will come out differently.
5 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 4 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 MR. DANDAR: Some yellow highlights block
8 out.
9 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, this yellow
10 doesn't block out.
11 MR. DANDAR: Is this a new exhibit or
12 from a prior deposition?
13 MR. WEINBERG: It's a new exhibit.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q. I'm showing you what's marked as the
16 application for recognition of exemption filed in
17 March of '98. By the way, you were still married
18 to Stacy in March of '98, correct?
19 A. Probably so.
20 Q. Probably so? You were?
21 A. Yeah. You place much more importance on
22 it than I do.
23 Q. Go ahead.
24 A. I'm sorry.
25 Q. Can you identify that?
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1 A. Identify what?
2 MR. DANDAR: The document.
3 Q. Can you identify the document?
4 A. Oh, 10?23.
5 Q. Do you recognize the signature on the
6 first page?
7 A. It looks like Stacy's.
8 Q. And it's dated ??
9 A. 3?20?98.
10 Q. It lists her as the executive director?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And it's an application for essentially
13 tax exempt status, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. Now, if you flip through it ??
16 let me just direct your attention to a couple of
17 pages.
18 A. I'd like to see the whole document.
19 Q. Okay. Well, why don't you take a moment
20 and look at the document and I'll ask some
21 questions about it. You find it funny? Is that a
22 funny document?
23 A. I'm laughing. Do you want me to ?? do you
24 want to ask a question?
25 Q. I'm just curious. I'd sort of like to be
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1 let in on the amusement.
2 A. Well, it says what assets does the
3 organization have. It says kennels, cleaning
4 machine, cat shelter, cat toys. I just thought
5 that was amusing. We had a lot of cat toys. Do
6 you mind if I laugh at that?
7 Q. Go ahead. Have you gotten to the part
8 where it says Bob Minton is the vice president?
9 A. No. You've got to let me see the whole
10 document.
11 Q. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.
12 A. You said you'd let me see the whole
13 document. Let me have my enjoyment.
14 Q. Go ahead.
15 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead, Robert.
16 Q. Just tell us when you're ready,
17 Mr. Young.
18 A. I will. Okay.
19 Q. Could I see it, please? We're working off
20 of one copy. Now, in March of 1998, when this was
21 filed, you were, as this document indicates, the
22 president of the Friends of the Animal Foundation,
23 correct?
24 A. Does that document say that?
25 Q. Yes.
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1 A. I don't think it ?? let me see it.
2 Q. It says: Give the following information,
3 names, addresses and titles of officers, directors
4 and trustees, and I believe you're listed as the
5 president with the Minton house address. Correct?
6 A. Okay. No, with a PO box.
7 Q. Vashon Island, that's the Minton house,
8 correct?
9 A. No. It's a PO box.
10 Q. Was there any other house on Vashon Island
11 that you lived in other than the Minton house for
12 the cats?
13 A. The Mintons' house.
14 Q. Other than the Mintons' house for the
15 cats?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, in March of 1998, while you were
18 president, Mr. Minton was vice president, wasn't
19 he?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And as indicated on ?? by the way, you
22 obviously understand that it is very important in
23 filing with the government, making sure that your
24 filings are accurate, right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Now, this indicates also that Robert
2 Minton is a substantial contributor, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, you would acknowledge, would you not,
5 that $30,000 would have been far and away the
6 largest contribution that the Friends of the Animal
7 Foundation ever received?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Many times over, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, it says in here, it has a description
12 of you and Stacy in here, correct? Did you read
13 that?
14 A. I glanced over it.
15 Q. It says: Vaughn Young has extensive
16 experience in working with the media and both he
17 and Stacy are professional writers. These skills
18 and contacts will be employed in forwarding the
19 goals and objectives of the Friends of the
20 Animal ?? of the Friends of the Animals, and then
21 it goes on.
22 My question to you is at that time, in
23 March of 1998, were you doing any professional
24 writing?
25 A. No. I wanted that to become my
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1 professional writing.
2 Q. The only professional thing you were doing
3 in March of 1998 was consulting in cases involving
4 the Church of Scientology, weren't you?
5 A. The only professional writing I was doing?
6 Q. The only professional thing, the only
7 thing you were being paid for in March of 1998 was
8 to consult in cases involving the Church of
9 Scientology?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Then it says financial support. Do you
12 remember that page, where it says, and I quote: At
13 this point almost all the funds expended to keep
14 the Friends of the Animals functioning come from
15 our own savings and earnings?
16 A. Uh?huh. Yes.
17 Q. That's not true, is it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Well, pardon me, but it says here, if it
20 is to be believed, that the income that was
21 received by the foundation between July of '97 and
22 December of '97 was $39,000. Now, how much of that
23 $39,000 did you and Stacy contribute?
24 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
25 Q. Do you understand the question?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. How much money? Because it says here
3 almost all of the funds expended come from our own
4 savings and earnings. So how much in funds from
5 your savings and earnings between July of '97 and
6 December of '97 did you and Stacy contribute to the
7 Friends of the Animals?
8 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
9 A. You're collapsing two points of the
10 application.
11 Q. I'll try the question again.
12 A. The same answer as long as the two ?? the
13 point is, if I may ?? may I help it along?
14 Q. No.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. I'll just make it very simple. You would
17 agree that when you tell the IRS funds, that means
18 cash, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And you would agree when you tell
21 the IRS own savings, that that would suggest some
22 sort of a bank account, correct?
23 A. Possibly, or, you know, whatever
24 constitutes savings.
25 Q. And when you say earnings, that would be
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1 something that somebody had paid you for work,
2 right?
3 A. Usually, yes.
4 Q. All right. Now, how much of your own
5 earnings between July and December of 1997 did you
6 and Stacy expend to keep the Friends of the Animals
7 functioning?
8 A. I don't really have a figure in front of
9 me but most of our funds, personal income, was
10 being used for that.
11 Q. Well, but there is very little personal
12 income between July and December of 1997, as we've
13 gone on before, right?
14 A. Well, that's your characterization of
15 little. I considered it adequate.
16 Q. A few thousand dollars from Mr. Dandar,
17 that's it?
18 A. Well, that's little in your eyes. It was
19 enough to keep the cats going.
20 Q. Okay. And how much from your own savings
21 did you and Stacy expend on the cats between July
22 and December of 1997, how much money?
23 A. July and December 1997? I don't have an
24 amount but we averaged a couple thousand dollars a
25 month always.
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1 Q. And certainly nothing like $39,000, right?
2 A. In that time period, no.
3 Q. All right. So the truth of the matter is
4 is that most of the money apparently came from Bob
5 Minton, didn't it?
6 A. Which money?
7 Q. That you used to run the fund in 1997?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The foundation, that you used to run the
10 foundation in 1997, the money came from Mr. Minton,
11 didn't it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, on this expense report ?? by the way,
14 do you have any idea if this ?? if any of the
15 information in here is accurate as to dollars?
16 A. It was accurate to the best of, you know,
17 our knowledge at the time that we were filing it.
18 She was the one that made the application, if you
19 notice. I did not.
20 Q. Well, you reviewed it before it was filed,
21 didn't you?
22 A. I was the one that wrote the description
23 that was attached in there about the activities.
24 Q. And you saw the income and expense
25 statement in here, didn't you?
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1 A. I don't remember seeing it but I probably
2 did.
3 Q. Well, you must have participated in the
4 budget, didn't you, that's attached in here?
5 A. Not that much. I keep trying to explain
6 it to you. She was the one that did the budget.
7 She ?? it was always an irritant to her that I
8 wasn't paying attention to the money, that I was
9 paying attention to the ?? to other aspects.
10 Q. Well, it says here income, $39,000, in
11 this form that you would have reviewed before it
12 was filed. Did you ask Stacy where did the $39,000
13 come from?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And it never came up that Mr. Minton had
16 given 30?
17 A. Not to me, no.
18 Q. Well, did you ask her, when you looked at
19 the expenses, how did we spend almost $5,000 on
20 construction and contracted services when all I
21 spent, and I was doing it, was $1,000 or so, did
22 you ask her that?
23 A. No, I knew we were spending more than
24 that. You asked how much did I personally spend.
25 There were other expenses going in that she was
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1 handling.
2 Q. Well, what are the $9,000 worth of
3 construction and contracted service expenses,
4 Mr. Young?
5 A. I don't remember the time periods. Like,
6 first of all, there had to be some ?? there was
7 other work being done on the property and the
8 house. The downstairs had to be ?? the floor had
9 to be redone, also a fence was put up around the
10 property that would contain any cats that got out.
11 Q. A fence would contain cats?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Not my cats.
14 A. Well, it's a company that ?? I even think
15 it might even be in Florida, that ?? the only one
16 that does it. It's a catproof fencing. It tilts
17 in so when they come up, they can't get it. It's
18 specially built exactly for cat ?? for catproof,
19 yeah.
20 Q. Okay. What I don't understand is though,
21 this property wasn't owned by the foundation,
22 according to your testimony, right?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. It was private property?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. The house wasn't owned by the foundation,
2 it was a private house?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In fact, Mr. Minton has now sold the
5 house, hasn't he?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You don't know that?
8 A. No, I don't know that.
9 Q. Stacy didn't tell you that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, the ?? so how is it that the cats for
12 a foundation are ?? strike that.
13 How is it that y'all are accounting to the
14 IRS for expending money on a private house to fix
15 it up and counting that as some sort of expenditure
16 for a ?? for what you represent to be a tax exempt
17 foundation?
18 A. Because the money was being spent for the
19 purpose of caring for the cats.
20 Q. Now, it says here in the current assets ??
21 A. I certainly don't need catproof fencing.
22 Q. It says here as the current assets that as
23 of February 16th, 1998, there was no cash. Do you
24 see this, no cash for the foundation?
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. Do you have any idea how ?? do you
2 yourself have any idea how the foundation went
3 through $30,000 between October 6th, 1997, and
4 February 16th, 1998?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And you didn't ?? you and Stacy didn't dip
7 into any of that money for your personal
8 expenditures?
9 A. No, because we knew that Scientology would
10 be watching every movement and that all the records
11 for the FAF would be public and checking accounts,
12 so we had to make sure that there was either checks
13 or receipts for everything spent.
14 Q. Now, on November 5th, 1997, you testified
15 in the FACT Net case in Los Angeles, did you not,
16 sir?
17 A. I don't recall the date, Mr. Weinberg.
18 Q. Well, let me just show you your testimony
19 so we don't have any ??
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going to mark this
21 but if I can come here and just show him this.
22 Q. This is a transcript dated November 5th,
23 1997, the Deposition of Robert Young, it's in Los
24 Angeles.
25 A. This is the one we looked at before.
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1 Q. Right. Do you remember that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It's in the FACT Net case, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it was in the offices of Mr. Leipold,
6 right?
7 A. No. It was in the ??
8 MR. DANDAR: Sam Rosen's office.
9 Q. Sam ?? oh, Sandy Rosen's office?
10 A. Hastings, the Hastings firm.
11 Q. Paul Hasting. Now, that was the
12 deposition that we've talked about that you knew
13 was coming up when you and Stacy were dealing with
14 Mr. Minton with regard to the purchase of the house
15 on Vashon Island, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you were paid with regard to the
18 consulting that you did with regard to that
19 deposition, correct?
20 A. I don't know if I was paid ??
21 Q. Well, you weren't doing it for free?
22 A. I'm just saying, Mr. Weinberg, I don't
23 know.
24 Q. You know that you were hired for money to
25 consult in the FACT Net case, right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. And you were paid for doing
3 that, correct?
4 A. Yes. We've gone through that.
5 Q. All right. You didn't go to LA on a pro
6 bono mission in November of 1997, did you?
7 A. I'm saying I don't know. I have before.
8 Q. You didn't fly down there at your own
9 expense, did you?
10 A. No, somebody just had a prepaid ticket.
11 Q. Right. It was paid for, it was arranged
12 by Mr. Leipold, I assume, right?
13 A. Probably.
14 Q. Okay. Now, you were deposed by Sandy
15 Rosen, who was a lawyer for the Church of
16 Scientology, right?
17 A. Probably so. I don't remember which
18 organization he represented but it was Mr. Rosen.
19 Q. And this is three weeks after the house is
20 closed on that the Mintons bought, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This is a month or so after these checks
23 are dated that we've gone over that you say you
24 don't know anything about, correct?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And can you tell the jury who appeared at
2 your side as your lawyer in that deposition?
3 A. Mr. Dandar.
4 Q. He was representing you personally, wasn't
5 he?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, he had never appeared in your behalf
8 before, right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Mr. Dandar came all the way from Florida
11 to LA to be your personal lawyer for this
12 deposition, right?
13 A. I ??
14 Q. Is that right?
15 A. I don't know that he was coming from
16 Florida. I know he's from Florida but I don't know
17 if he was coming in from someplace else. I can't
18 say that. He just came in.
19 Q. All right. Now, you didn't pay him
20 anything to represent you, did you?
21 A. I don't recall if we did or not.
22 Q. Didn't you previously testify that you
23 didn't pay him anything?
24 A. Yeah, and I probably didn't. There was
25 times when we paid attorneys to represent us.
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1 That's why I was pausing.
2 Q. This is the only time that Mr. Dandar had
3 ever represented you, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar wasn't working for free,
6 was he?
7 A. No.
8 Q. He didn't come to LA for free, did he?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Well, how much was he charging for his
11 services? You don't know, do you?
12 A. No, I don't know.
13 Q. No, you don't. No, somebody else was
14 paying his fee to represent you, wasn't he?
15 A. I don't know that.
16 Q. Well, Mr. Minton was paying the fee,
17 wasn't he?
18 A. I don't know that.
19 Q. Well, did Mr. Dandar tell you during that
20 deposition or before the deposition or indicate to
21 you that he was now being paid by Bob Minton?
22 A. He never mentioned it.
23 Q. All right. And did you tell Mr. Dandar
24 before the deposition that Mr. Minton and his wife
25 had just purchased a $247,000 house that you had
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1 moved into with Stacy?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now, you were working for Mr. Dandar at
4 the time, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And Stacy was working for Mr. Dandar at
7 the time, right?
8 A. Sometimes. I was mainly the one who was
9 doing the work, as I tried to explain earlier.
10 Q. Well, did you tell Mr. Dandar that you
11 were concerned before the deposition about this
12 issue of Bob Minton and, therefore, you had kept
13 yourself out of it, did you say anything like that?
14 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Objection. You've
15 just established that I was representing him
16 and now you're asking what we talked about.
17 You know better. Come on.
18 MR. WEINBERG: So you're objecting?
19 MR. DANDAR: Of course.
20 Q. Okay. Now, did you ?? now, at the
21 deposition you were asked questions about where you
22 were living, weren't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And during that questioning, at first you
25 did not reveal that you and your wife were ?? had
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1 moved or were about to move into a house that had
2 been purchased by the Mintons, did you?
3 A. I don't recall the exact testimony.
4 Q. Well, you remember that you did everything
5 in your power to avoid telling the lawyer for the
6 Church of Scientology that you had just been given
7 a gift by a man named Bob Minton?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, this was part of your plan and
10 Stacy's plan before the deposition to keep you away
11 from the Bob Minton issue so you didn't have to
12 testify about it, right?
13 A. Incorrect, no.
14 Q. Now ??
15 A. Could I just take ??
16 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Go ahead.
17 THE WITNESS: I just need to go to the
18 bathroom.
19 A. While you're getting the papers, I'm just
20 going to go to the bathroom.
21 Q. Sure. Sure. I'll pull out the testimony.
22 (Recess.)
23 Q. Now, Mr. Young, do you recall that the
24 issue of Mr. Dandar came up during the deposition
25 that Mr. Rosen took?
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1 A. No, I don't remember.
2 Q. Well, do you recall that you were asked
3 the question on page 703 by Mr. Rosen: Okay. Now,
4 you have additional expenses today in terms of
5 paying your counsel.
6 Mr. Dandar said: No, I'm pro bono.
7 Mr. Rosen said: And your expenses are
8 also pro bono?
9 And Mr. Dandar said: My expenses, right.
10 Now, that wasn't true, was it, he wasn't
11 pro bono out there and you've testified so today,
12 haven't you?
13 A. No, I didn't say that.
14 Q. He wasn't out there for free, was he?
15 A. I'm saying ?? I did not say that. That
16 wasn't my testimony. I said there was no cost to
17 me.
18 Q. You know that Mr. Dandar wasn't out there
19 pro bono, don't you?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. And you know that Mr. Dandar had just
22 received $100,000 from Mr. Minton right before the
23 deposition, you knew that too, didn't you?
24 MR. DANDAR: Objection.
25 A. No, and I've told you I haven't.
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1 MR. DANDAR: Argumentative.
2 Q. And Stacy Young didn't tell you that, did
3 she?
4 A. She did not.
5 Q. Do you remember that you were asked
6 questions about moving in the deposition by
7 Mr. Rosen?
8 A. Somewhere along the line that subject came
9 up.
10 Q. All right. Well, let me refresh your
11 recollection. On page 728, line 6 ?? or line 2,
12 question: So you and your wife don't have any
13 present plans to be moving anywhere?
14 Answer: As I say, we've been there three
15 years and that's the reason we complied.
16 Question: I don't think you heard my
17 question. Do you and your wife have any present
18 plans to be moving anywhere?
19 Answer: We don't have any other location.
20 Question: Do you have any plans to be
21 moving somewhere?
22 Answer: I'd like to move somewhere else.
23 Question: Any place in particular?
24 Answer: I'm going to stay in the
25 Northwest, in Seattle.
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1 Question: And you and your wife ?? and
2 have you and your wife discussed any particular
3 location that you might be looking to move to?
4 Answer: Well, what my wife and I discuss
5 I think would be spousal privilege.
6 Do you remember those answers and those
7 questions?
8 A. Yeah, sounds familiar.
9 Q. That was false, you were trying to mislead
10 Mr. Rosen.
11 A. No, they were very accurate. I ??
12 Q. You had already moved to Vashon Island,
13 hadn't you?
14 MR. DANDAR: That's a question. You can
15 answer that one.
16 Q. You had already moved to ?? well, strike
17 that.
18 By November 5th, 1997, the house had
19 already been bought, hadn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Because that took place in October?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But you didn't want to tell Mr. Rosen that
24 because you were concerned it would affect your
25 credibility, right?
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1 A. No. He asked me if I planned to move and
2 I was answering I didn't plan to move. I had
3 moved.
4 Q. But previous in the testimony you said you
5 lived in west Seattle in a rented house.
6 A. We had lived in west Seattle in ??
7 Q. But you didn't tell him that you had just
8 ?? you were just moving into a $247,000 house
9 bought by this man Minton, did you?
10 A. He didn't ask me.
11 Q. Well ??
12 MR. DANDAR: What page did you just read
13 from, Sandy?
14 MR. WEINBERG: 728.
15 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
16 Q. Well, let's go on. Now we'll go to 7 ??
17 at the bottom of 728, because Mr. Rosen is asking
18 these questions. He goes: Is there an area, if I
19 remember correctly in Seattle, just offshore, a
20 place called Vashon Island ??
21 It said Bashon here.
22 ?? Vashon Island.
23 Yes.
24 Question: Is it of Seattle ?? part of
25 Seattle proper?
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1 This is on 729.
2 Answer: No.
3 Question: Or metropolitan Seattle?
4 Answer: It's metropolitan Seattle.
5 And it's an island out in the Puget Sound?
6 Answer: Yes.
7 Question: Do you have any plans to be
8 living there?
9 Answer: Yes, I'd like to.
10 Question: And have you taken any steps or
11 are you in the process of living there?
12 Answer: That one place ?? that was one
13 place we looked at amongst others.
14 Question: You've looked at a place to
15 rent?
16 Answer: Yes.
17 But you had already moved there, you just
18 didn't think that it was responsive to tell
19 Mr. Rosen, the lawyer for the Church of
20 Scientology, that a few weeks before you had moved
21 into a $247,000 house that had been bought by
22 Mr. Minton, sir?
23 A. First of all, your question is loaded and
24 my answers are accurate and true. He ?? if he
25 would have asked me are you living on Vashon, I
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1 would have said yes. Whether I planned to live on
2 Vashon in the sense of stay there for years, that's
3 up to finding out when you live on Vashon.
4 Q. I see.
5 A. My responses were accurate.
6 THE WITNESS: Really, I mean the laughter
7 at the end of the table is a bit, you know ??
8 MR. DANDAR: Come on, Mr. Rinder.
9 THE WITNESS: They're really enjoying
10 themselves on this one.
11 Q. Well, Mr. ??
12 MR. DANDAR: Try to keep them under
13 control.
14 A. And he's saying yes, he's even agreeing
15 that he's enjoying himself.
16 Q. Mr. Young, is that the way you approach
17 sworn to testimony?
18 A. I responded ??
19 Q. Sort of catch as catch can?
20 A. No.
21 MR. DANDAR: Argumentative.
22 Q. Play games with ?? play games with
23 lawyers?
24 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative.
25 A. When you feed me a loaded question, I'm
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1 going to answer no when it's loaded.
2 Q. Could anything be clearer than the
3 question do you have any plans to be living there
4 after you had just testified that you were living
5 in west Seattle. Answer: Yes, I would like to.
6 Could anything be clearer?
7 A. That's an accurate response. Do you have
8 plans? Yes, I would like to.
9 Q. You think that's accurate?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you think you were being entirely
12 truthful by not disclosing at this point in the
13 deposition that you and your wife had just moved
14 into a $247,000 house on Vashon Island?
15 MR. DANDAR: Don't answer the
16 argumentative repetitive question.
17 Q. Go ahead.
18 MR. WEINBERG: He has to answer.
19 MR. DANDAR: No, he don't.
20 MR. WEINBERG: You can object.
21 MR. DANDAR: No, do not answer.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, you cannot ?? you're
23 not the judge.
24 MR. DANDAR: He's not answering. You're
25 repeating yourself. He's already answered
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1 that question twice.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, Ken, Ken, make your
3 objection, just like I did.
4 MR. DANDAR: Then we'll suspend the
5 deposition. Is that what you want to do?
6 MR. WEINBERG: You want to suspend the
7 deposition why? Because he's going down the
8 tubes, is that ??
9 MR. DANDAR: You're violating the rule.
10 A. Oh, God.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not violating any rule.
12 MR. DANDAR: What tube?
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not violating any
14 rule.
15 MR. DANDAR: You know he answers. He
16 tells about the rental agreement later on in
17 the deposition, you know that.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q. Let me ask you something, Mr. Young. It's
20 your recollection that after attempting to avoid
21 telling, disclosing that you had moved to Vashon
22 Island, finally Mr. Rosen simply came out and asked
23 you and you finally had to, because you knew that
24 he knew, say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then there
25 were questions about Bob Minton, right?
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1 MR. DANDAR: Object to the multiple
2 questions.
3 A. Yeah, that's ?? you've got about five
4 questions inside there. Which one do you want me
5 to answer?
6 Q. Well, just leave it at you, in your
7 opinion, were being entirely truthful in the
8 answers that we ?? the questions and answers that
9 we just went over, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, how about this one? We go to page
12 731. Question: My question is can you tell me an
13 address or any other way that you want to describe
14 it of places that you've looked at on Vashon
15 Island, on Vashon as a potential residence?
16 The Witness: We've looked at places on
17 Vashon. I've rented no places on Vashon. I have
18 taken up no residence on Vashon.
19 Now, my question is so you're being
20 entirely truthful there too?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Because what, you had taken up no
23 residence on Vashon?
24 A. Not at that point, I didn't consider it,
25 no.
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1 Q. You didn't consider it?
2 A. (Witness shaking head.)
3 Q. So your testimony is what, you were going
4 to move ?? had you moved onto Vashon Island by
5 November 5th, 1997?
6 A. I don't remember if that was the move or
7 if it was shortly thereafter, so my testimony would
8 have been accurate at the time.
9 Q. So you're satisfied that that was an
10 accurate statement?
11 A. Yes. If he would have asked me, I ?? I
12 answered my questions accurately.
13 Q. Okay. Well, how about this one, page 733.
14 We're talking about credibility here. Question:
15 Do you know a gentleman named Minton, M?i?n?t?o?n,
16 I think his first name is Robert?
17 Answer: I've spoken with him.
18 Question: And do you know whether he owns
19 any property on Vashon Island?
20 Answer: I believe he does.
21 Question: And have you spoken with him
22 about that property?
23 Answer: No.
24 Now, that's an accurate answer, that's a
25 truthful answer, that you hadn't spoken to
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1 Mr. Minton about the property on Vashon prior to
2 November 5th, 1997, that he bought, he and his wife
3 bought for you and Stacy?
4 A. And as I've answered you earlier, I had
5 not spoken with Mr. Minton about the property in
6 purchasing it. I have said that time and again.
7 It was accurate then and it is accurate now.
8 Q. So you feel comfortable with the
9 truthfulness of that testimony when you were under
10 oath in November of 1997?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
13 A. I had not spoken with Mr. Minton about
14 the purchase of that property, no.
15 Q. All right. Question on page 733 by
16 Mr. Rosen, and 737, I mean, by Mr. Rosen, and 738,
17 question: After the real estate agent showed you
18 the house, when is it that you first learned that
19 Mr. Minton owned it?
20 Answer: A few weeks later.
21 Question: At the time you looked at the
22 house, was it your understanding it was owned by
23 somebody else other than Mr. Minton?
24 Answer: I don't know who owned it.
25 Question: Do you know when Mr. Minton
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1 bought the house after you saw it?
2 Answer: Yes.
3 So you think you were being entirely
4 honest there, too?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You feel comfortable with the veracity of
7 your testimony there?
8 A. The house wasn't purchased until weeks
9 after it was looked at with the realtor, that's
10 correct.
11 Q. All right. Page 740, question, line 22:
12 Why did he buy it ?? talking about Minton ?? why
13 did he buy that house?
14 Answer: I did not discuss this house with
15 him, Mr. Rosen.
16 MR. DANDAR: Is that a question?
17 Q. Yeah. Is that accurate?
18 A. I've testified to that earlier today. I
19 did not discuss it with him.
20 Q. Because you were intentionally trying to
21 keep yourself in a situation so you could give
22 those denials at your deposition, that was the
23 plan?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So that you could give absolutely accurate
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1 testimony at your deposition, that was the plan?
2 A. I always give accurate testimony at my
3 depositions.
4 Q. Now, in mid 1998 you talked with Jesse
5 Prince for the first time in a number of years,
6 correct?
7 A. Possibly that was the time, yes.
8 Q. And you actually met him out in Los
9 Angeles at Mr. Leipold's office?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You helped him write an affidavit against
12 Scientology?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You edited an affidavit that was written
15 for him with regard to Scientology?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You didn't have anything to do with regard
18 to a declaration or affidavit that was done by
19 Mr. Prince in or about that time period in 1998?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And you were actually being paid by
22 Mr. Leipold to work on, among other things, a case
23 involving the Church of Scientology, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And part of your function was to look at
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1 this declaration that was done and signed by
2 Mr. Prince?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You didn't have anything to do with the
5 affidavit?
6 A. I did not work on the writing of it, no.
7 Q. You edited it, didn't you?
8 A. That's very different from writing it.
9 Q. Did you edit it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you edited it before he signed it,
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You did that in Mr. Leipold's office,
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you knew at that point that Mr. Prince
18 was also being financed by Mr. Minton, didn't you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, did you tell Mr. Prince at that point
21 that you and Stacy were living in a house that had
22 been bought by the Mintons, did you tell him that?
23 A. I might have.
24 Q. And did Mr. Prince tell you that he had
25 already been to Mr. Minton's in New Hampshire, did
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1 he tell you that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did Mr. Prince tell you that he had any
4 relationship with Mr. Minton?
5 A. No.
6 Q. At that time, when you were out at
7 Mr. Leipold's?
8 A. No.
9 Q. It just didn't come up, right?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. But shortly thereafter you flew to Chicago
12 to join Mr. Prince to accompany him in a move to
13 Denver, right?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When did you do that?
16 A. I didn't.
17 Q. Oh, you flew to Minnesota?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. So you're just being
20 technically accurate here, right?
21 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative.
22 A. Mr. Weinberg, you're asking me to answer
23 precisely and then when I avoid ?? do that, then
24 you object.
25 MR. DANDAR: Do you want him not to be
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1 accurate.
2 Q. All right. Now ??
3 A. And I even offer sometimes to clarify,
4 can I clarify for you, and then you say no, because
5 otherwise it was no, not Chicago, Minneapolis, but
6 I'm trying to follow your instructions.
7 Q. Now, you, shortly after this meeting with
8 Mr. Prince in LA, you flew to Minnesota to join
9 Mr. Prince to take him to Denver, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And ??
12 A. Not take him, accompany him.
13 Q. Accompany him to Denver. And you knew
14 that he was going to Denver to work purportedly for
15 FACT Net, right?
16 A. That's what he told me.
17 Q. Right. And at that point he told you, did
18 he not, sir, that Mr. Minton was going to pay for
19 this move from wherever he lived, Minnesota, to
20 Denver?
21 A. No.
22 Q. He never mentioned it?
23 A. Minton's name was never mentioned.
24 Q. Now, y'all drove in a car, right?
25 A. As opposed to ??
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1 Q. Just follow me for a second. Okay?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it was a car that had been recently
6 purchased for Mr. Prince, wasn't it?
7 A. I don't know that.
8 Q. Well, Mr. Prince didn't tell you that
9 Mr. Minton paid $23,000 for the car that y'all took
10 across country from Minnesota to Denver, he didn't
11 tell you that?
12 A. No, he didn't.
13 Q. And now, you didn't pay for any of the
14 expenses on this trip, did you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Mr. Prince did?
17 A. I don't know who did.
18 Q. Well, I mean the money that was used came
19 out of his pocket, not your pocket, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And he told you, did he not, that that
22 money came from Mr. Minton?
23 A. No.
24 Q. He didn't tell you that?
25 A. He ?? I'll say it again. Mr. Minton's
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1 name never came up.
2 Q. In the entire ?? and you spent 10 days on
3 the road with Mr. Prince, right?
4 A. Probably 10.
5 Q. Right. You went from Minnesota to ?? you
6 ended up in Memphis and then through the Midwest
7 and ultimately in Denver, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And through that 10 or so day
10 period Mr. Minton's name never came up?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Did you ask Mr. Prince where he was
13 getting the money?
14 A. No, no, not my style.
15 Q. All right. Now, you had to fly from
16 where, Seattle to Minnesota or from some other city
17 to Minnesota?
18 A. Seattle to Minneapolis.
19 Q. Seattle to Minneapolis. Now, you didn't
20 pay for that trip, did you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Mr. Minton did, didn't he?
23 A. No. I don't know that.
24 Q. Well, as far as you knew, you didn't have
25 the funds to fly from Seattle to Minnesota, did
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1 you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. So you didn't pay for it, right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Stacy didn't pay for it, right?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. All right. Who did pay for it?
8 A. I believe Jesse did.
9 Q. Jesse, and that was from the job that
10 Jesse had in Minnesota?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. All right. So Jesse ?? now, the ticket
13 was arranged by Stacy, right?
14 A. She made the flight arrangements.
15 Q. Right. And she didn't tell you that the
16 money ?? the ticket had been purchased by
17 Mr. Minton, right?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Or funds that Mr. Minton had given to her?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you ask her where the ticket came
22 from?
23 A. No. I just assumed it was coming from
24 Jesse.
25 Q. Now ?? well, you knew ?? at some point
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1 during this trip Jesse must have told you that he
2 had declared bankruptcy in 1997, right, he told you
3 that, didn't he?
4 A. No, he didn't.
5 Q. So that never came up either?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, how much money did Jesse have on this
8 trip, do you know?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, once you got to Denver, you then ??
11 you didn't go back to Seattle, did you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You went to San Francisco?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. To visit a friend?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And somebody paid for that flight as well,
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you ?? and Mr. Minton paid for that
21 flight, didn't he?
22 A. I don't know. I ??
23 Q. Well, who got the ticket for you?
24 A. Stacy.
25 Q. But she didn't have the money to pay for
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1 that trip, as far as you know, did she?
2 A. She must have, she paid for it.
3 Q. Well, did she tell you that the money came
4 from Bob Minton?
5 A. She didn't tell me anything.
6 Q. Do you know how much the trip cost?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, you went to San Francisco but your
9 friend wasn't there, right?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. And at that point the decision was made
12 for you to fly to Columbus, Ohio, to go to Well
13 Spring, right?
14 A. I have trouble with the form of your
15 question. If you want to, reask it.
16 Q. Well, you didn't go from San Francisco
17 back home to Vashon Island?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You went from San Francisco to Columbus,
20 Ohio, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You went to a deprogramming place, didn't
23 you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You went to a place that was run by people
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1 that were ?? that represented themselves as
2 anticult people?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You went to a place that Stacy had been a
5 few months before?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You went to a place that ?? and the visit
8 that Stacy had a few months before lasted what, two
9 weeks?
10 A. I think she was just there a week.
11 Q. And you meet with psychologists and
12 various people at this place to work through issues
13 that in your case and her case you say had to do
14 with Scientology, right?
15 A. Might have been. You just get to deal
16 with what you want to deal with.
17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're out of time, sir.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
19 (Recess.)
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q. To refocus you, we were talking about Well
22 Spring and your visit there sometime in the ?? you
23 would date it sometime in the summer of 1998, is
24 that right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You actually went there twice, didn't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You went there again in May or so of 1999,
4 do you remember?
5 A. I think it was either August or ??
6 Q. Okay. I'm sorry.
7 A. ?? of '99.
8 Q. You went there in the summer of 1999?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And each time you were there for two
11 weeks, right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How long were you there each time?
14 A. One week.
15 Q. So each stay was one week?
16 A. Basically six days, yeah.
17 Q. Stacy was there for two weeks?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Now, the head of Well Spring is a
20 man named Dr. Paul Martin, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And Dr. Paul Martin had been on the board
23 of directors of the Cult Awareness Network, had he
24 not?
25 A. I don't know.
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1 Q. Well, you know what the Cult Awareness
2 Network is, don't you?
3 A. Was.
4 Q. What is referred to as CAN, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it was in ?? it was an organization ??
7 it was an anticult organization, correct?
8 A. Cult informative, sometimes anti some
9 cults.
10 Q. Right.
11 A. Controversy as to what it really was but
12 that's fairly accurate.
13 Q. And they eventually went bankrupt as a
14 result of a lawsuit that they lost arising out of a
15 kidnapping of a young Pentecostal man and
16 attempting to deprogram him, correct?
17 A. I don't know that.
18 Q. Well, you know that they went out of
19 business, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. They went bankrupt, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. They were in litigation involving the
24 Church of Scientology, right?
25 A. Might have been. I don't know their
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1 litigation record.
2 Q. And you don't know that the guy that runs
3 Well Spring had anything to do with this anticult
4 network named CAN?
5 A. No.
6 Q. He never mentioned that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, you did talk about Scientology at
9 Well Spring?
10 A. What I did at Well Spring I would consider
11 to be a doctor?patient relationship since it was
12 personal, for my own personal benefit with a
13 therapist.
14 Q. All right. But it has nothing to do with
15 your testimony on direct with regard to your views
16 concerning Scientology, nothing?
17 A. I'm just ??
18 Q. Just answer that question.
19 A. I don't understand the question.
20 Q. The stay at Well Spring, the discussions
21 that you had at Well Spring, this organization run
22 by Dr. Paul Martin, is it your testimony it had
23 absolutely nothing to do with the opinions that you
24 were ?? that you gave on your direct testimony?
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. Well, you've testified in behalf of CAN in
2 Emory Wilson versus CAN, didn't you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You worked in that case, didn't you?
5 A. Yes, I just never testified in it.
6 Q. Oh, you gave a deposition in it or did a
7 declaration in it?
8 A. I did a declaration. I don't know if
9 there was a deposition.
10 Q. All right. So you know what CAN is?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were a consultant for CAN?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You were paid to consult with regard to a
15 lawsuit in which the lawyers for CAN hired you?
16 A. Leipold was the one that retained me. I
17 believe he was the attorney for CAN.
18 Q. Didn't you do a couple depositions in that
19 case?
20 A. Probably. I remember ?? I might have done
21 one. I don't know if I did two.
22 Q. And you were paid for your work, weren't
23 you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, the stay ?? Well Spring is a ?? in
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1 the country, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Has some property?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Not very many people go there, I mean
6 there is just a few people there at any given time?
7 A. Only a few people when I was there.
8 Q. In fact, you were at one time the only
9 person, right?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Two people?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I thought that your testimony was that one
14 of the times it was just a woman that was a patient
15 like you?
16 A. I never used the word patient.
17 Q. What did you use?
18 A. Client.
19 Q. Client.
20 A. And when you said I was the only person
21 there, I was never the only person there. There's
22 always staff there.
23 Q. Well, I meant from a client ??
24 A. Well, I'm trying to be accurate with
25 your questions.
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1 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Young, I appreciate
2 that. So you were ?? there were ?? at one time you
3 were the only client there, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you discussed Well Spring with
6 Mr. Minton?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You discussed Well Spring with Stacy?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you discussed Well Spring with Jesse
11 Prince?
12 A. Probably did in the trip.
13 Q. Yeah, because Jesse Prince went to Well
14 Spring as well, didn't he?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, Jesse Prince told you, did he not,
17 that Mr. Minton paid for ?? paid $5,000 for his
18 time at Well Spring, did he tell you that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know that it costs approximately
23 $5,000 for a stay at Well Spring?
24 A. No. Now I do.
25 Q. You know it now because ??
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1 A. You told me.
2 Q. ?? I just told you. Okay. So Stacy never
3 told you that either?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Bob Minton never told you that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, did ?? your testimony in your
8 deposition was that you got a scholarship to Well
9 Spring, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In other words, your understanding was
12 that you didn't have to pay anything?
13 A. That's correct, except for your travel
14 there.
15 Q. Which somebody else paid for but you don't
16 know who it was?
17 A. I'm just saying as far as scholarships are
18 concerned, scholarships cover the stay there, not
19 your ?? you handle your own travel.
20 Q. And you don't know if anybody made a
21 donation with regard to this scholarship?
22 A. That's how scholarships are established, I
23 assume, is people make donations.
24 Q. And did Mr. Minton make a donation?
25 A. I don't know.
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1 Q. Did anybody make a donation in your behalf
2 with regard to your stay at Well Spring?
3 A. I don't know.
4 MR. DANDAR: We'll break for lunch when
5 you're done with Well Spring.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
7 Q. Did you have to sign some sort of term of
8 a rehabilitation agreement to ?? when you went to
9 Well Spring?
10 A. I don't understand your question.
11 Q. Did you have to sign an agreement when you
12 went to Well Spring? Did you sign some documents
13 when you went there?
14 A. I signed something.
15 Q. That laid out the program?
16 A. Probably.
17 Q. Laid out the terms?
18 A. Probably.
19 Q. Set forth what the fees were?
20 A. No, there was nothing signed with fees
21 that I remember.
22 Q. You don't remember anything like that?
23 A. No, not at all.
24 Q. Well, did you get some document that said
25 we waive the fees?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Did somebody tell you there that somebody
3 had paid your fees for you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And did they tell you ?? did you learn
6 that somebody had paid Stacy's fees for her?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And the second time around, a year later,
9 you received another scholarship from this
10 organization?
11 A. At my request, yes.
12 Q. And as far as you know, nobody covered the
13 expenses of you being at this retreat for a week,
14 right?
15 A. Well Spring did.
16 Q. Okay. You don't have any idea what their
17 source of funding is?
18 A. No.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I guess we can ?? I mean
20 I'm done with that. Do you want to ?? I've
21 got a few other areas that I can ??
22 MR. DANDAR: Let's go. Let's take a
23 break.
24 (Recess.)
25
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q. Mr. Young, we're still on
3 cross?examination. Did you speak to anyone with
4 regard to your testimony during the break?
5 A. Other than speaking with Mr. Dandar, no.
6 Q. Well, do you understand that on
7 cross?examination you're not permitted to speak to
8 anyone, including particularly the lawyer for the
9 person that called you as a witness?
10 MR. DANDAR: We didn't talk about his
11 testimony.
12 A. We didn't talk about my testimony.
13 MR. DANDAR: We know better.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q. Well, I just heard you say something about
16 that just while we were sitting here, about
17 something you didn't remember, blah, blah. So you
18 weren't talking about the testimony at all?
19 A. No, no, no.
20 Q. You do understand that that's the rule,
21 the operative rule here, right?
22 A. Yeah, I understand that.
23 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Haney's first name is
24 what?
25 A. Brian.
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1 Q. And Brian Haney is a man that lives in
2 Columbus, Ohio, is that right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. He lives in Ohio?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What city does he live in? Outside of
7 Columbus?
8 A. It's a suburb of Columbus. I can't
9 remember the name of it. It's just outside the
10 city limits of Columbus.
11 Q. And he used to be a Scientologist, is that
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in February of 1999 he provided you
15 with an apartment to live in, is that right, on or
16 about February of 1999, right?
17 A. To live and work in.
18 Q. And you didn't pay rent, did you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And it was a furnished apartment?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And he provided you with a car to drive,
23 right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You didn't pay for that either, did you?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. And you drove the car actually across
3 country?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Several times, didn't you?
6 A. Well, a round trip once.
7 Q. And that was on a personal trip?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That wasn't for work, was it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And in addition to everything else, he
12 paid you from approximately February of '99 through
13 August of '99 $200 a week?
14 A. Almost.
15 Q. And did he do that by way of check, cash,
16 what?
17 A. Cash.
18 Q. And did you receive a 1099 for that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And why is that?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Well, do you consider it income?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you intend to declare that for tax
25 purposes?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, what you were working on in this
3 apartment from February through August of 1999 was
4 this project that you described as some sort of
5 archiving of records concerning L. Ron Hubbard, the
6 founder of Scientology, is that right?
7 A. As long as the question is not properly
8 worded, I have to say no until we get to the right
9 question.
10 Q. All right. So that the ?? so that you
11 were not working, as I thought you had said
12 earlier, on a project with regard to archiving
13 records regarding L. Ron Hubbard?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. You did work on that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And you certainly didn't have any
18 objection to my characterization of Mr. Hubbard as
19 the founder of Scientology, did you?
20 A. No, but as I ?? it was just larger than
21 that.
22 Q. Now, how many boxes of documents were
23 there in this room?
24 A. At what point?
25 Q. Well, how many boxes ?? I mean how many
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1 boxes of documents did you archive?
2 A. That I finally ended up working on, maybe
3 eight or ten banker's boxes.
4 Q. These are the square sort of banker's
5 boxes, right?
6 A. Standard banker's box size.
7 Q. Not the real lengthy ones?
8 A. No, just the ?? just the small ones.
9 Q. Like these boxes that we have here, right?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. They are about one foot by one?and?a?half
13 foot wide.
14 Q. Okay. And so it took you eight months to
15 go through eight boxes?
16 A. No.
17 Q. It took you from however long it was
18 between February and August of '99 to go through
19 eight boxes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, you also ?? and you understand that
22 Mr. Haney is involved in this lawsuit as well as a
23 consultant, don't you, in the Lisa McPherson case?
24 A. No. That's news to me.
25 Q. So he never told you that?
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1 A. That's the first time I've heard that.
2 Q. And you understand that Mr. Haney works
3 against his former religion Scientology?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You don't understand that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, in the fall of 1999 you were paid to
8 prepare an affidavit or declaration to be filed in
9 the Wollersheim case, correct?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you prepare in the fall of 1999, in a
12 room in the Columbus area, in the presence of Jesse
13 Prince, a declaration or affidavit to be filed in
14 the Wollersheim versus Church of Scientology case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ?? did you prepare in Ohio an
17 affidavit that was executed and filed in the
18 Wollersheim case?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was part of the work with regard to
21 that, to the preparation of that affidavit, done
22 with Jesse Prince?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you do it with Jesse Prince in a
25 hotel room in the Red Roof Inn in the Columbus,
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1 Ohio area?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you were paid for that work, were you
4 not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And Jesse Prince also in that time period
7 prepared and worked on his own affidavit or
8 declaration to be filed in the Wollersheim case,
9 right?
10 A. Not while I was there.
11 Q. So he was just helping you on your
12 affidavit?
13 A. He was reading material but he was not
14 working on an affidavit while I was there.
15 Q. All right. But you understood that he was
16 also working on an affidavit to be filed in the
17 same case, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you understood that the affidavit was
20 an affidavit that said very negative things about
21 your former religion, the Church of Scientology?
22 A. I didn't read it.
23 Q. Your affidavit that you prepared ??
24 A. Oh.
25 Q. ?? said very negative things about your
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1 former religion, the Church of Scientology?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So it said very positive things about the
4 church?
5 A. No, just factual, taken from ?? taken from
6 their documents.
7 Q. So you couldn't characterize it as
8 positive or negative then?
9 A. It's just factual.
10 Q. Right. But you do understand that there
11 had been litigation between Larry Wollersheim,
12 another former Scientologist, and the Church of
13 Scientology for almost 15 years now, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you were now being hired and paid to
16 do an affidavit in that lengthy lawsuit, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you understand that Jesse was hired to
19 prepare an affidavit or declaration in that lengthy
20 lawsuit in the same time period, right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So you don't know that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You just ?? well, you do know that. I
25 mean, Mr. Young, Mr. Prince has told you and you
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1 know that he filed an affidavit in the Wollersheim
2 case in the fall of 1999, you know that, don't you?
3 A. If you would like me to help you with the
4 questions, I would like to, but I don't know that
5 he was hired, but whenever I try to correct the
6 thing so I can answer your question properly, you
7 object, so I have to say no. I do not know that he
8 was hired. I know that ?? and I answered I knew
9 that he was prior to doing this. So if you would
10 like me to sometimes help you out on the small
11 ones, I'm willing.
12 Q. So you know Jesse Prince pretty well, I
13 mean you know him to be somebody that does charity
14 work in these lawsuits, right?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Well, you know not, don't you?
17 A. I don't know what he does in the lawsuits.
18 Q. Now, how much have you or are you to be
19 paid with regard to your work in the Wollersheim
20 case?
21 A. I think it's $2,000.
22 Q. You've been paid to date?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how much are you owed?
25 A. I think we're done.
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1 Q. And how many hours did you work on that,
2 do you have any idea?
3 A. Well, more than that reflects, I know
4 that, because we were in there for several days, et
5 cetera, but total time was probably six, seven full
6 days.
7 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 5 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 Q. Now, let me have marked as the next
10 exhibit, which would be Exhibit 5, some letters ??
11 composite exhibit ?? the letters that were provided
12 to us by Mr. Dandar, six letters that ?? the first
13 one being a June 30th, 1997 letter from Mr. Dandar
14 to Stacy and Vaughn Young at your west Seattle
15 address; the next letter being an October 20th,
16 1997 letter to you from Mr. Dandar at your west
17 Seattle address; the next letter being an
18 October 2nd, 1997 letter to you from Mr. ?? from
19 the paralegal at Mr. Dandar's office at the west
20 Seattle address; the next letter is a September
21 8th, 1997 letter from Mr. Dandar to you at the west
22 Seattle address; there is an August 13th, 1997
23 letter to you from Mr. Dandar at the west Seattle
24 address; and there is an August 1 letter to you
25 from Mr. Dandar at the west Seattle address. And
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1 those letters have been represented as all the
2 letters that Mr. Dandar can find reflecting
3 payments to you and/or to Ms. Young, and if you
4 will go through them, I believe you will see that
5 they total ?? well, why don't you tell me what they
6 total and then tell me what else you've received in
7 this case. Can you identify those and then tell us
8 what else you've received in this case?
9 A. Where were you reading dates? There is
10 one here without a date.
11 Q. It's at the top. It's at the top.
12 MR. DANDAR: At the very top, look, way up
13 here.
14 A. Oh, there it is. Okay. Sorry. Do you
15 mind if I put these in a chronological order?
16 Q. Well, that's ?? no, I don't mind. Have
17 you had a chance to review them?
18 A. Uh?huh.
19 Q. Now, you see that they total $8700?
20 A. I'll take your word for that.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. My math is not that good in this.
23 Q. Seven checks that total $8700. And that's
24 between approximately June and October 20th, 1997,
25 correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Now, my question to you is
3 what else have you received, you and/or Stacy
4 received from Mr. Dandar?
5 A. There was ?? I think I mentioned before
6 there was a letter of transmittal and some
7 documents.
8 Q. No, no, no. In the way of money?
9 A. Oh. $5,000.
10 Q. And when was that?
11 A. That was a couple of weeks ago.
12 Q. What else?
13 A. That's it.
14 Q. And what has Stacy received?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. So the total that you have received,
17 according to your testimony, is $13,700, if my math
18 is right, right? What I see is $2500, $750, $1200,
19 $750, $1500, $2000 and $5000. If my math is right,
20 that's $13,700.
21 A. This is June '97, two and a half years,
22 that's probably right.
23 Q. Okay. Now, what was the $5,000 for two
24 weeks ago?
25 A. For all the preparation for the work prior
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1 ?? because I had been here ?? this was ?? this is
2 my third trip now, working with him, and so the two
3 depos and doing consulting work with him while I
4 was here.
5 Q. Well, did you submit a bill?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is this a flat fee?
8 A. No. We just sat down and we just
9 calculated out the time and did it that way.
10 Q. So that doesn't cover today's testimony?
11 A. It anticipated some of the work. I worked
12 that out.
13 Q. And obviously your expenses have been
14 covered, right?
15 A. Yes. I also have to submit a bill to you
16 too, I understand.
17 Q. Well, I guess that's something that we can
18 discuss.
19 A. I'm sure we will.
20 Q. What did we establish that rate at,
21 Mr. Young?
22 A. $100 an hour.
23 Q. $100 an hour? Now, I asked you earlier,
24 to get back into where I want to go, you agree that
25 you've never been accepted by the court ?? by any
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1 court as an expert on anything, right?
2 A. Not yet, that's correct.
3 Q. You have not written any ??
4 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you hold on one
5 second?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, sure.
7 (Discussion off the record.)
8 Q. You have not written any scholarly pieces
9 on religion, have you?
10 A. I'm not sure what you mean by scholarly.
11 Q. You understand scholarly works, don't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You understand that there are people that
14 write intellectual research pieces that are
15 published that are described by people in whatever
16 the field it is as scholarly works in a particular
17 field, right?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. Okay. And you've not written any
20 scholarly works as we've just defined it on
21 religion, have you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, you haven't written any books on
24 religion?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You don't have any advanced degree in
2 religion?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Or religious philosophy?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You haven't written any papers analyzing
7 or comparing religious philosophies?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Or ??
10 A. Other than what one does in the
11 university, but that's not for publication.
12 Q. So like when I was going to school and I
13 got an assignment to write a paper you're talking
14 about?
15 A. In graduate school it's not quite the
16 same, but they are done for the university.
17 Q. All right. Now, you didn't ?? you don't
18 have a Ph.D. in anything?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, you have not studied works by
23 religious scholars as to what constitutes a
24 religion, have you?
25 A. I think I have.
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1 Q. What are some of those scholars that you
2 have studied?
3 A. Well, just in the course of university
4 study one is required to ?? as part of my own
5 studies we undertook the study of religion, but as
6 within the philosophical context, there you have a
7 debate as to what is a scholar. We could go from
8 Aristotle on as to who would be ?? or St. Thomas
9 Aquinas.
10 Q. Well, how about somebody that's lived in
11 the twentieth century, can you name somebody that's
12 lived in the last 20 years who you have studied who
13 publishes works on religion?
14 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. You
15 asked him in the century, in the twentieth
16 century and in the last 20 years. Did you
17 mean to say 20 years because a century is 100?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, do you ?? I know that
19 a century is 100, Ken. That's very good.
20 MR. DANDAR: I mean you switched, you
21 switched around. Thank you. I'm awake.
22 Q. Have you studied any, have you read any
23 scholarly works by any religious scholar who has
24 written with regard to religion or religious
25 philosophy in the twentieth century?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who?
3 A. Well, Stephen Kent from Canada, G. Gordon
4 Melton, who Scientology has hired as their expert,
5 Roy Wallis, who is a sociologist who wrote a book,
6 also did some papers, somebody else back when I was
7 reading Melton, I can't remember, but I found his
8 papers.
9 Q. Stephen Kent was a CAN member, wasn't he?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Well, you don't know that?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. When you read his works, did you ?? when
14 you read whatever it is that you read that he
15 wrote, did you learn that he was a member of the
16 Cult Awareness Network?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. That he was affiliated with the Cult
19 Awareness Network?
20 A. It was not contained in it. These were
21 university papers, scholarly works. They had ??
22 Q. Are you aware that he lectured at Cult
23 Awareness Network conferences?
24 A. I have no idea, never heard of that.
25 Q. You didn't attend any of those?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Anyone else?
3 A. Anyone else what?
4 Q. That you would ?? that has ?? that you
5 have read who wrote in the twentieth century as a
6 religious scholar on religion or comparative
7 religion or religious philosophy?
8 A. There were some others that I was reading
9 but if I wasn't particularly impressed with them,
10 no reason to retain the name other than the ones I
11 cited.
12 Q. You have been to CAN conferences, have you
13 not?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Cult Awareness Network conferences?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. You've never been to one?
18 A. Yes. Okay. Mr. Moxon is sitting there
19 with his jaw dropped. Can I get back to the
20 clarification because this always gets into ?? I
21 went to one. You asked plural. I'm trying to be
22 very precise. You said conferences. No, I have
23 not been to conferences. Have I been to a
24 conference? Yes.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Can you read me back what
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1 my question was?
2 (The question and answer were read by the
3 reporter:
4 Question: You have been to CAN
5 conferences, have you not?
6 Answer: No.)
7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Stop that.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q. So you interpreted that as a question as
10 to whether or not you had been to more than one
11 conference and you thought the appropriate answer,
12 the truthful answer was no, is that your testimony?
13 A. You were very exact and that's why I
14 interjected even though you don't like me to do it,
15 to be very precise.
16 Q. All right. Now, are there any other
17 scholars, religious scholars that you can think of
18 whose works you have reviewed or read who wrote in
19 the twentieth century?
20 A. Other than the ones I cited, no.
21 Q. Now, you don't have a field of expertise,
22 do you?
23 A. Excuse me? In what? I don't understand
24 the question.
25 Q. You do not have a field of expertise, do
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1 you?
2 A. I don't understand the question.
3 Q. Well, there is ?? you ?? Mr. Wallis, let's
4 use him for an example. What's his name?
5 A. Roy Wallis, he's deceased.
6 Q. All right. And he was a ??
7 A. Sociologist.
8 Q. Where?
9 A. In England somewhere. I don't know what
10 part.
11 Q. All right. I mean he was an educated man,
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Had advanced degrees?
15 A. I assume so.
16 Q. And you understand that his field of
17 expertise was religious philosophy or comparative
18 religion, you understand that, right?
19 A. I don't know what his field was. I just
20 enjoyed what I read. I don't really remember what
21 his field was.
22 Q. Well, I'm asking you what is your field,
23 if any?
24 A. If I were to write, I would just say
25 Scientology.
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1 Q. So you're an expert in Scientology?
2 A. Well, I've been retained as an expert but
3 you asked me what I ?? what can I be an expert in.
4 I can write about Scientology but I've been
5 retained as an expert by Mr. Dandar on the subject.
6 Q. And the reason I think you cited in your
7 direct testimony for your expertise is your 21
8 years as a member of the staff at Scientology,
9 right?
10 A. That's part of it.
11 Q. Well, and I think you said that whatever
12 it is that you're an expert in, there is only a
13 couple of other people in the world who were
14 experts in it and you named Jesse Prince and Stacy
15 Brooks, right, Stacy Young, your ex?wife. You
16 remember that, don't you?
17 A. No, that's not what I said. Do you want
18 me to clarify?
19 Q. That is what you said. We can go and
20 check.
21 A. No. Can I clarify?
22 Q. Well, let me just ask you this. The ?? do
23 you consider Jesse Prince and Stacy, your ex?wife,
24 to be qualified in the same field that you are
25 supposedly an expert in?
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1 A. We have strongly different emphasis, very
2 strongly different emphasis.
3 Q. Well, there's no ?? you can't think of any
4 peer review for your field, can you? You know what
5 a peer review is, don't you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you haven't had any peer review with
8 regard to your field?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or your work?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Even though there is no work, right?
13 There is no published work?
14 A. Well, we were talking about the Der
15 Spiegel article.
16 Q. The one you got paid $20,000 for?
17 A. Thank you for that.
18 Q. Is that right? You would not call that a
19 scholarly piece, would you?
20 A. No. It was a popular piece. I wrote a
21 piece for Quill magazine which is a magazine for
22 the Society of Professional Journalists, which is
23 semischolarly, even though it's not a ?? it's
24 certainly not a popular magazine.
25 Q. And that was not a scholarly piece either,
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1 was it?
2 A. Well, it's more of an educational piece,
3 not scholarly.
4 Q. That was how many pages long?
5 A. In the magazine, maybe five pages.
6 Q. Do you think it might have been one page?
7 A. No, it was not one page.
8 Q. Quill I'm talking about.
9 A. Quill, it was not one page.
10 Q. All right. And what did you get paid for
11 that?
12 A. I think it was $750.
13 Q. Now ?? but you haven't published anything
14 like you read of Mr. Wallis's?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, whatever your theory is, it hasn't
17 been generally accepted in any scholarly community
18 as far as you know, has it?
19 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
20 Q. Has it?
21 A. I don't know what you mean by my theory.
22 Q. Well, do you know ?? is there a scholarly
23 community for whatever it is that you're testifying
24 about?
25 A. On one subject, yes.
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1 Q. And that subject is?
2 A. On the religious ?? religiosity.
3 Q. Right, and we'll go over that scholarly
4 community. My question is has your theory, as you
5 testified to in your direct, been generally
6 accepted by that scholarly community?
7 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
8 Q. Has it?
9 A. Hasn't even been discussed.
10 Q. So the answer is no, it hasn't been
11 accepted, right?
12 A. No, it hasn't been discussed.
13 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
14 MR. WEINBERG: What's wrong with the
15 form?
16 MR. DANDAR: What theory are you talking
17 about? This man has never expressed a theory
18 in his direct.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Bingo, Ken. I mean that's
20 ?? I mean that's the problem.
21 MR. DANDAR: His opinions of what he
22 observed.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That's the problem. And
24 under the Daubert test ??
25 MR. DANDAR: We're not in Daubert
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1 expertise.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, guess what, we ??
3 MR. DANDAR: We're in a different type of
4 expertise. There's no other type?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I guess what you're
6 going to have to do is ??
7 MR. DANDAR: Tell Judge Moody that.
8 MR. WEINBERG: No, you tell Judge Moody
9 that.
10 MR. DANDAR: Well, we'll see.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q. Now, in the deposition ?? in your direct
13 testimony you defined ?? I asked you for your
14 definition of religion. Do you remember that?
15 A. Uh?huh, yes.
16 Q. And you told me that religion was a landed
17 organization that should be fully recognized by a
18 government as a valid operating religion. Do you
19 remember that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you explained that by landed
22 organization you mean something that you could
23 locate or find, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And fully recognized as a valid operating
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1 religion by government was sort of
2 self?explanatory, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you acknowledged that Scientology, the
5 religion of Scientology was a landed organization,
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you acknowledged that it has been
9 fully recognized by the United States government as
10 a valid operating religion, correct?
11 A. I never said that.
12 Q. But that's true, isn't it?
13 A. No, it's not. I even said the IRS does
14 not recognize religion and they are very strenuous
15 on that point. They only recognize the nonprofit
16 status of an organization.
17 Q. As a religious institution?
18 A. Still, they do not recognize ??
19 Q. Is that what they recognize?
20 A. They recognize it as a nonprofit.
21 Q. Religious ??
22 A. They do not grant religious status.
23 Q. They recognize it in the nonprofit status
24 as a church, don't they?
25 A. That is correct.
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1 Q. Okay. Now, you also testified that you
2 yourself, through your own efforts, when you were a
3 staff member in the '70s, obtained recognition of
4 Scientology in its church or religious status with
5 the State Department and the Labor Department,
6 correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And you got with the State Department, you
9 were able to achieve with the State Department
10 what? Explain that to the jury.
11 A. The granting of religious status with
12 regard to ?? how would I word it? The operations
13 of the State Department in this particular case, it
14 was the granting ?? recognition of ministerial
15 status for Church of Scientology ministers, that
16 they could enter as religious ministers, which
17 required a certain type of visa.
18 Q. Right, enter the United States, these are
19 people that were not US citizens?
20 A. Correct, in an immigration matter.
21 Q. And you ?? explain to the jury what you
22 obtained from the Labor Department through your
23 efforts.
24 A. Same thing, granting of that, but it was
25 more of a ?? there was no labor statute that we
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1 were trying to gain, it was just recognition, and
2 mainly their agreement to destroy certain records
3 or to have them corrected.
4 Q. Okay. And these were significant
5 achievements in the 1970s?
6 A. Considerable.
7 Q. Right. And it was a significant
8 achievement in 1993 when the IRS recognized tax
9 exempt status as a church for the various churches
10 of Scientology, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that occurred in 1993 after one of the
13 longest investigations by the IRS ever, correct?
14 A. I don't know. I can't speak to it. I
15 know it was long but I ??
16 Q. You know they went over probably a decade,
17 don't you?
18 A. I don't know that that investigation for
19 that exemption lasted a decade. I know that there
20 has been constant, you know, fights for 40 years.
21 Q. Right. And you know that in the ?? at the
22 ?? sort of the last few years before the tax exempt
23 status was granted, that there was an intensive
24 investigation and audit as to the entire Church of
25 Scientology organization by the IRS, you know that?
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1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Well, you've ?? I believe I remember you
3 testifying that you, at the expense of Mr. Haney,
4 went to Washington and copied a bunch of documents
5 concerning the tax exemption.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you did that in 1999?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you understood from that and from your
10 involvement with regard to Scientology that the IRS
11 considered all kinds of accusations concerning the
12 Church of Scientology, including accusations from
13 people like you that had left the church?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. Well, you know that ??
16 A. I never saw my name in these documents or
17 the names of any others.
18 Q. Well, you understand that Larry
19 Wollersheim, for example, was interviewed and
20 talked at length with the IRS people concerning the
21 Church of Scientology?
22 A. First time I've heard that.
23 Q. And you understand that amongst the things
24 that the IRS looked at was the accusations
25 concerning the Sea Organization, some of the same
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1 accusations that you've made in this case?
2 A. I saw the response in the papers.
3 Q. Right. And that the issue was whether or
4 not there was truly corporate integrity with regard
5 to RTC and SCI and the various religious
6 corporations that had been created and we'll go
7 through later in 1981, '82, you understand that?
8 A. I just lost your question, Mr. Weinberg.
9 Q. You understand that amongst the things
10 that the IRS looked at in deciding to give the
11 various Churches of Scientology tax exempt status
12 as a church was the issue of corporate integrity
13 and whether or not, in fact, the corporations were
14 real corporations that operated as corporations?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that was because, among other things,
17 people had been alleging, like you do now, that, in
18 fact, there was no corporate integrity?
19 A. I don't know that.
20 Q. You don't know that?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. And you don't know that they looked at ??
23 well, you do know from the papers that the IRS
24 looked at what the Sea Org was and whether or not
25 the Sea Org had anything to do with the integrity
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1 of the corporations in Scientology, you know that
2 because you looked at the documents, right?
3 A. Yes, I did, but the matter of corporate
4 integrity went back 30, 40 years, long before the
5 Sea Org ever showed up. It was long an issue.
6 Q. Now, let me have marked ?? oh, well, let
7 me have marked as an exhibit the following
8 documents.
9 (Discussion off the record.)
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q. Now, you spent a week in 1999 at the IRS
12 reading room going through all of the IRS files
13 with regard to the tax exempt issue, right?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Through a lot of them?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Through any of the records with regard to
18 the tax exemption?
19 A. Okay. I'll keep trying this. I was not
20 there a week.
21 Q. Well, how many days were you there?
22 A. Probably about five days.
23 Q. Okay. And while you were there for five
24 days, you were going through the ?? all of the
25 files that were made available to you as a member
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1 of the public concerning the tax exempt status that
2 was granted to the various Churches of Scientology,
3 right?
4 A. Not really.
5 Q. Well, why don't you just tell the jury ??
6 A. Can I correct?
7 Q. Why don't you just tell the jury what you
8 went through in that five days in Washington that
9 were being financed by Mr. Haney.
10 A. Okay. That I can respond to. I basically
11 had to ?? I was ??
12 Q. Can you hold on one second? I'm sorry. I
13 apologize but I've been out of the office for a
14 week.
15 A. Is that my check?
16 Q. No.
17 A. The FOI room had 1023s just available,
18 just on shelves, and so I had to determine ?? there
19 was too much to read, far too much to read and look
20 at, so I had to determine what it was I wanted to
21 copy. So I spent time doing that and then I spent
22 literally days copying the material and getting it
23 all in order to read later. My review was more
24 based on the need to determine what it is I wanted
25 to copy.
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1 Q. Well, you learned from your review that
2 the IRS exemption rulings in 1993 classified, among
3 others, the Flag Service, the Church of Scientology
4 Flag Service Organization, which is the defendant
5 in this case here, the Church of Scientology
6 International, which is the mother church, and RTC,
7 which is the holder of the marks, as churches
8 and ?? as churches and they were given church
9 status, you understand that, right?
10 A. For the purpose of tax exemption.
11 Q. Right. And you also understand, do you
12 not, that although every organization classified as
13 a church under the code, the tax code, is a tax
14 exempt religious organization, that not every
15 exempt religious organization is classified as a
16 church, you know that, don't you?
17 A. You're pushing it farther than I know
18 about the tax laws, but I understand that, yes.
19 Q. All right. And that church status under
20 ?? by the IRS is limited to those tax exempt
21 religious organizations that demonstrate certain
22 associational and denominational characteristics,
23 you understand that, don't you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that the IRS employs a facts and
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1 circumstances test in determining an organization's
2 church status, you understand that, don't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that amongst the things that they look
5 at are a distinct legal existence, you understand
6 that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. A recognized creed and form of worship, do
9 you understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. A definite and distinct ecclesiastical
12 government within the church, you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. A formal code of doctrine and discipline,
15 do you understand that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. A distinct religious history, do you
18 understand that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. A membership not associated with any other
21 church or denomination, do you understand that?
22 A. Yes. Can we do them all at once?
23 Q. We'll do some in a row then. Do you
24 understand that it also ?? the test also includes
25 an organization of ordained ministers, ordained
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1 ministers selected after completing prescribed
2 studies, a literature of its own, established
3 places of worship, regular congregations, regular
4 religious services, Sunday schools or similar
5 programs for religious instruction of the young,
6 and schools or similar formal programs for
7 preparation of its ministers, you understand that
8 all those things are considered in this facts and
9 circumstances test in determining whether or not an
10 organization has church status or not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that the IRS determined after applying
13 its test following a lengthy investigation that the
14 various churches of Scientology met this church
15 test, you understand that?
16 A. I understand that.
17 Q. Is that correct?
18 A. They did that.
19 (Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7 were
20 marked for identification.)
21 Q. Okay. Now, let me have marked these two
22 documents. Let's say one is 6 and I'll put that on
23 this Department of State thing, and one is 7 which
24 I will put on the Department of Labor one. I hand
25 these to you, 6 and 7, and do you recognize, sir,
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1 those two letters?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And they were actually letters sent to you
4 when you were a staff member in the Church of
5 Scientology, right?
6 A. They sure were.
7 Q. And the 6 is dated December 30th, 1974, is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it's addressed by the Department of
11 State to the Reverend Vaughn Young, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in fact, you were a minister of the
14 Church of Scientology, weren't you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And this is a result of your work to get
17 the Church of Scientology recognized by the
18 Department of State with regard to this visa issue,
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the person writing you is some
22 official from the Department of State, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it says: Dear Mr. Young, I'm happy to
25 inform you that our review of the full record
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1 relating to your church has led us to conclude that
2 it is a religious denomination having a bona fide
3 organization in the United States. Do you see
4 that?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to object, move to
7 strike. It's hearsay. It's not offered by
8 the deponent. It's not admissible at trial.
9 Q. Now, you would agree that that letter is
10 certainly a letter that would suggest the
11 recognition by a United States government agent ??
12 agency as early as December of 1974 of the Church
13 of Scientology as a valid operating religion?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Now, then let's go to the next
16 document, which is Number 7. Do you recognize that
17 letter?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And I have trouble reading the date here.
20 Do you know what year that was? It's obviously in
21 the 1970s but can you remember when that was?
22 A. I think it's November 25, 1975.
23 Q. Okay. And again, this time it's from the
24 Department of Labor, is that right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And it's again addressed to the Reverend
2 Vaughn Young, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And at that point you were a minister in
5 the Church of Scientology, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this letter is a letter that is as a
8 result of an application that you made on behalf of
9 the Church of Scientology, is that right?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What is it?
12 A. This is basically a letter of concession
13 after a number of visits by me and correspondence.
14 There was no application per se. There wasn't even
15 an application of the Department of State letter.
16 Q. Okay. Well, in the second paragraph, just
17 so that I'm not misreading this, it says: In our
18 recommendation ?? this is the Department of Labor
19 ?? we advised the Employment and Training
20 Administration that a review of the relevant data
21 had led us to conclude that the Church of
22 Scientology had established itself as a bona fide
23 religious organization and that it should,
24 therefore, be recognized as such for purposes of
25 Schedule A, which has to do with some wage law. Is
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1 that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. DANDAR: Objection; hearsay. Move to
4 strike.
5 Q. Now, you would agree, would you not, that
6 the Department of Labor is an agency of the United
7 States government and that by this letter it
8 certainly recognized the Church of Scientology as a
9 valid operating religion, is that right?
10 A. For the purpose of the Labor Department,
11 yes. You seem to be establishing my credentials,
12 Mr. Weinberg.
13 Q. Credentials as a minister, right?
14 A. As an expert on getting the religious
15 nature of Scientology.
16 Q. And what involvement did you have in
17 attaining the certification or ruling by the IRS
18 that the Church of Scientologies were a church
19 under its facts and circumstances test?
20 A. In 1993?
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. Nothing.
23 Q. Now, let me show you what we'll mark as
24 the next exhibit. You can just leave that in ??
25 A. Can I ask you a technical question? Can I
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1 get copies of these?
2 MR. DANDAR: I don't have the Department
3 of Labor one, no. Do you have it?
4 MR. WEINBERG: I gave it to you.
5 MR. DANDAR: Is that this one?
6 MR. WEINBERG: No. Here, let me have
7 that one back.
8 THE WITNESS: This is what Labor looks
9 like.
10 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, I've got it. I
11 thought I had given it to you.
12 MR. DANDAR: The one you just took back,
13 is that an exhibit?
14 MR. WEINBERG: It's not yet an exhibit.
15 (Discussion off the record.)
16 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 8 was marked for
17 identification.)
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q. Let me show you what we'll mark as
20 Exhibit 8 and ask you if you recognize Exhibit 8.
21 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy for me?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. I'm sorry. That's
23 probably what I had given you. Here. Here.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. So this Exhibit 8 would be a letter that
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1 you wrote with regard to your request concerning
2 the approval by the Department of Labor?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. So the fruits of that labor were
5 Exhibit 7?
6 A. Ultimately. My letter that you got as
7 Exhibit 8 was July and then the concession letter
8 was November.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. So that's a few months difference.
11 Q. In this letter, in the fifth paragraph you
12 were essentially asking the Department of State or
13 you were ?? you were essentially seeking approval
14 from the Labor Department as you had obtained from
15 the State Department that Scientology was a bona
16 fide religious organization in the United States,
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Let's put this down.
20 A. It was really nice that you found these.
21 I like it.
22 Q. I'm glad. Now, in the materials that you
23 reviewed in Washington, you found the ?? basically,
24 the certification letters concerning the Church of
25 Scientology, is that right, by the IRS?
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1 A. I assume you mean that's the letter that
2 was issued out to each organization granting the
3 tax exemption?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Yes, I saw those.
6 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 9 was marked for
7 identification.)
8 Q. I'll just mark it as the next exhibit,
9 Exhibit 9, and ask you if you recognize this to be
10 the one that was sent to Flag Service in or about
11 October 1 of 1993?
12 A. This seems to be ?? what you handed me is
13 incomplete. In fact, it cuts off in the middle of
14 a sentence.
15 Q. You're right.
16 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 10 was marked for
17 identification.)
18 Q. Let me show you as Exhibit 10 ??
19 MR. DANDAR: I don't have that one yet.
20 Which one is that?
21 MR. WEINBERG: 8.
22 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, I've got 8.
23 THE WITNESS: You've got 8?
24 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
25 Q. Once we get a complete one, we'll remark
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1 Exhibit 9. Exhibit 10, do you recognize this as
2 the ??
3 A. So we're going to hold off on that one you
4 just handed me?
5 Q. Yes, because you're right, it's
6 incomplete.
7 ?? the October 1993 acceptance letter with
8 regard to CSI, which is the mother church, from the
9 IRS?
10 A. I mean I can't ?? I can't verify this. I
11 just ??
12 Q. Well, didn't you see that in what you
13 copied?
14 A. I saw a letter. I don't know that that's
15 the letter but I'm not going to question the point,
16 Mr. Weinberg.
17 Q. Okay. But you do ??
18 A. I concede that there is a letter and
19 that's probably it.
20 Q. Recognizing CSI as a church for tax exempt
21 purposes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you do acknowledge that CSI is what's
24 been described as the mother church of Scientology,
25 right?
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1 A. That's the PR statement.
2 Q. Right. Well, I mean we'll get to the
3 corporate structure, but just as a prelude, I mean
4 in 1981, 1982, CSI was incorporated, correct?
5 A. I don't know the year of incorporation.
6 Q. Well, you were around then, you were in
7 ASI at that time, right?
8 A. I was in ASI early '82.
9 Q. Right. So you ?? you remember that '81
10 and '82, CSI, RTC and various other Churches of
11 Scientology were incorporated?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. And in some cases reincorporated, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And in the case of CSI, it was
16 incorporated and entered into a license agreement,
17 a license agreement with RTC with regard to using
18 the various marks and trademarks regarding
19 Scientology that had been, in essence, ceded to or
20 given to RTC by Mr. Hubbard, right?
21 A. That's a very complex question but, in
22 essence, to the point of CSI had the marks and et
23 cetera, yes.
24 Q. CSI entered into a licensing agreement?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. RTC had the marks, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And RTC had the responsibility to preserve
4 the purity and integrity of Scientology, right?
5 A. That's the statement. They had the marks
6 and they had the right to enforce them.
7 Q. Right. And then CSI said was given the
8 authorization under its agreement with RTC to, in
9 essence, sublicense the marks to the various other
10 Churches of Scientology, including Flag Service
11 Organization, right?
12 A. Yes, at which point then it did become, in
13 that form, the mother church, yes.
14 Q. Right. And so that's where I was leading
15 to, and then it became the mother church,
16 basically?
17 A. Basically, yes.
18 Q. Right. Okay. Now, from your review of
19 the IRS files this year, you understand that all of
20 these, RTC, CSI, Flag Service Organization, and
21 various other Churches of Scientology in the United
22 States were recognized as churches by the IRS for
23 tax exempt purposes, correct?
24 A. I can't say that because I don't remember
25 what things like building ?? what is it, Building
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1 Management Services, RTC ?? I mean Building
2 Management Services was granted recognition and
3 it's certainly not a church. RTC is not ?? it
4 never called itself a church, so I can say that
5 they were all given tax exemption.
6 Q. Well, let me show you the RTC one.
7 A. That's fine.
8 Q. And see if we can clarify this.
9 A. I don't question the tax exemption. I
10 just don't know which status BMS was given.
11 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 11 was marked for
12 identification.)
13 Q. This is Exhibit 11. Do you recognize that
14 as the original October 1993 letter that was sent
15 to Religious Technology Center, RTC, by the IRS in
16 response to its tax exempt application determining
17 that it was exempt from federal income tax under
18 Section 501(A) of the Internal Revenue Code as an
19 organization described in 501(C)3?
20 A. Yes, it says that.
21 Q. And let me also show you what we'll mark
22 as the next exhibit, which is Exhibit 12.
23 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 12 was marked for
24 identification.)
25 Q. This is a letter ??
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1 A. Can you tell what the date is?
2 Q. No, but I know that it is after, as you
3 can see from the text, the October 1993 exemption
4 letter.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. All right. And just so it's clear ?? I
7 mean the Warren McShane, you know who he is, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. This is a letter from the IRS to Warren
10 McShane and it says: Dear Mr. McShane, we are
11 aware that the recent publication by the Wall
12 Street Journal of the text of the 1993 closing
13 agreement to which RTC is a party has focused
14 renewed attention on the IRS's determinations that
15 the various individual Churches of Scientology,
16 including your church, that is the RTC, separately
17 qualify as tax exempt under Section 501(C)3 of the
18 code. You have requested that we restate our
19 position on the status of the exemption ruling and
20 certain matters relating to the closing agreement.
21 First, we wish to reaffirm that the exemption
22 determination letter issued to RTC on October 1,
23 1993, remains in good standing. By that letter the
24 Service recognized RTC as a separate corporate
25 entity, as exempt from Federal Income Tax, as an
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1 exclusively charitable and religious organization
2 within the meaning of the Section 501(C)3 of the
3 code. The determination resulted from the
4 application of the requirements of Section 501(C)3
5 to the voluminous information provided in response
6 to comprehensive and detailed requests by the
7 Service. In order to issue the letter, the Service
8 determined that RTC was organized and operated
9 exclusively for charitable and religious purposes.
10 Now, do you understand that, in fact, RTC
11 just as the other churches of Scientology, were
12 recognized under the facts and circumstances test,
13 do you understand that?
14 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Move to strike.
15 Hearsay.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Can I finish my question?
17 MR. DANDAR: You asked the question
18 already. That's why I waited for you ??
19 MR. WEINBERG: No, you interrupted me.
20 You interrupted.
21 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike your reading
22 of a letter that's hearsay, not in evidence,
23 not admissible.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, actually it is in
25 evidence. I just put it in evidence.
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1 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, right. Lack of
2 predicate.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, no. You called him as
4 an expert, supposedly, on whether Scientology
5 is a religion and now what we're showing is
6 that, A, he was responsible for getting two
7 government agencies to recognize it as a bona
8 fide religion and, B, the IRS recognized it as
9 a ?? the Church of Scientology as a church.
10 So I understand your objection.
11 MR. DANDAR: I understand you're reading
12 hearsay documents. That's my objection.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q. Now, do you understand that the IRS
15 recognized RTC amongst the other Church of
16 Scientology organizations as tax exempt for
17 religious purposes as well, do you understand that?
18 A. That was already done with this
19 Defendant's Exhibit 11. I wish we'd have finished
20 the letter though.
21 Q. Do you know that similar letters were
22 written to Flag?
23 A. No. Similar to Mr. McShane's, huh?
24 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 13 was marked for
25 identification.)
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1 Q. Let me show you what's marked as
2 Exhibit 13, which is a similar letter written to
3 Flag, and now the date is clear, March 20th, 1998,
4 to Mary Voegeding, Church of Scientology at Flag,
5 which, in essence, clarifies or reaffirms the 1993
6 letter.
7 MR. DANDAR: Same objection as to form.
8 Q. And did you run across that letter in
9 your copyings?
10 A. No, I don't remember seeing these, because
11 these ?? what I had was the 1023 files. These were
12 not part of the 1023 file.
13 MR. WEINBERG: What's the exhibit number
14 on that one?
15 MR. DANDAR: 13.
16 A. The last one was 13.
17 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 14 was marked for
18 identification.)
19 Q. And finally, let me show you Exhibit 14,
20 which is a letter of the same date, March of '98,
21 from the same woman, Ms. Petschek, P?e?t?s?c?h?e?k,
22 of the IRS, to Heber Jentzsch, with regard to CSI,
23 reaffirming the 1993 letter.
24 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
25 Q. You know what? I can't find one of
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1 these.
2 All right. And did you run ?? you didn't
3 run across that letter in your copyings, did you?
4 A. No. As I said, it's not part of the 1023
5 file. You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the
6 closing agreement, would you.
7 Q. I don't believe that that's a public
8 document.
9 A. Oh, rats.
10 MR. TITUS: By the way, I object to
11 comments by the witness that aren't responsive
12 to questions, such as the last one, and I move
13 to strike.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q. Now, you would acknowledge that the
16 definition of religion that you gave in your
17 deposition and reaffirmed today, the landed
18 organization that is fully recognized as a valid
19 operating religion, is rather simplistic as
20 compared to the religious ?? to the test that
21 religious scholars use as to what is a religion or
22 constitutes ??
23 A. You weren't asking me for a scholarly one.
24 You just wanted one for ??
25 Q. I just asked you that question. Do you
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1 recognize that, that yours is rather simplistic as
2 compared to the test that is applied by religious
3 scholars?
4 A. Of course. It was intended that way.
5 Q. And that in a variety of forms, religious
6 scholars basically apply a test as to whether
7 something constitutes a religion, that there would
8 be a well?defined belief system which issues into
9 religious practices, rights, ceremonies, and which
10 sustain a body of adherence or people that follow
11 it, do you agree that that ?? a test something like
12 that is found in every religious scholarly analysis
13 as to whether something constitutes a religion or
14 not?
15 A. That or something similar to it.
16 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Objection.
17 Q. And you would agree that that test or a
18 test like that that I just described, as utilized
19 by these religious scholars, is a well tested
20 methodology to analyze whether or not something
21 like Scientology is or is not a religion?
22 A. That would be a seriously debatable point
23 amongst scholars, I think.
24 Q. I'm talking about the methodology, the
25 test of religion that ?? as we've just gone over,
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1 that is, in one form or another, utilized by
2 religious scholars, that that test is a well?tested
3 methodology in the field of religion or religious
4 philosophy?
5 A. I would say heavily tested.
6 (Mr. Prince entered the room.)
7 MR. WEINBERG: Let the record reflect
8 that, for reasons that are unclear, Mr. Jesse
9 Prince has arrived.
10 MR. DANDAR: Unclear? I can see him
11 perfectly well.
12 (Discussion off the record.)
13 THE WITNESS: While they are getting a
14 chair and you guys are doing your documents,
15 I'm just going to hit the john.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
17 (Recess.)
18 PLEASE REFER to Volume III for further
19 Trial Testimony.
20 NOTE: The original and one copy of the
21 foregoing Trial Testimony will be held by
22 Mr. Weinberg; copy to Mr. Dandar.
23 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing
24 of the Trial Testimony transcript will be handled
25 by the office of Mr. Kennan G. Dandar of the firm
SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 398
1 Dandar & Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite
2 201, Tampa, Florida.
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SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 399
1 SIGNATURE PAGE
2 Volume II
3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the
4 foregoing Trial Testimony given by me on
5 February 9 & 10, 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the
6 following corrections, if any, should be made in
7 the transcript:
8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR
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11
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18 Subject to the above corrections, if any,
19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing
20 Trial Testimony.
21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this
22 __________ day of ____________________ , 20___.
23
24 ________________________________
25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA
4 COUNTY OF POLK
5
6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby
7 certify that the witness named herein personally
8 appeared before me and was previously duly sworn.
9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this
10 12th day of February, 2000.
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12
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14 ________________________________
15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR
16 Notary Public ? State of Florida
17 My Commission Expires: 10?23?03
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SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
401
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA
3 COUNTY OF POLK
4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered
5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter
6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida
7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared
8 before me for the taking of the foregoing Trial
9 Testimony, and that I was authorized to and did
10 stenographically and electronically report the
11 Trial Testimony; and that a review of the
12 transcript was requested; and that the transcript
13 is a true and complete record of my stenographic
14 notes and recordings thereof.
15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an
16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause,
17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party
18 connected with this litigation, nor am I
19 financially interested in the outcome of this
20 action.
21 DATED THIS 12th day of February, 2000, at
22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida.
23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 2?10?00
SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000