1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION
3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235
7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume III
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24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR February 9 & 10, 2000 25
403
1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609
5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602
9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 12 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 13 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 14 Tampa, Florida 33602
15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: 19 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI Robert P. Polli, P.A. 20 Trombley & Hanes 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265
21 Tampa, Florida 33602
22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 23 Mr. Jesse Prince Ms. Lara Cartwright 24 Mr. Michael Rinder Mr. Kendrick L. Moxon 25 Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (Via Internet)
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1 I N D E X
2 Volume III
3 WITNESS PAGE
4 Called by the Plaintiff:
5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG
6 CROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG.......... 406
7 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 526
8 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 527
9 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE......................... 528
10 EXHIBITS 11 Defendant's Exhibit No. 15..................... 428 Defendant's Exhibit No. 16..................... 434 12 Defendant's Exhibit No. 17..................... 440 Defendant's Exhibit No. 18..................... 448 13 Defendant's Exhibit No. 19..................... 453 Defendant's Exhibit No. 20..................... 455 14 Defendant's Exhibit No. 21..................... 457 Defendant's Exhibit No. 22..................... 459 15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 23..................... 461 Defendant's Exhibit No. 24..................... 461 16 Defendant's Exhibit No. 25..................... 462 Defendant's Exhibit No. 26..................... 463 17 Defendant's Exhibit No. 27..................... 469 Defendant's Exhibit No. 28..................... 472 18 Defendant's Exhibit No. 29..................... 474 Defendant's Exhibit No. 30..................... 479 19 Defendant's Exhibit No. 31..................... 503 Defendant's Exhibit No. 32..................... 508 20 Defendant's Exhibit No. 33..................... 511 Defendant's Exhibit No. 34..................... 512
21 Defendant's Exhibit No. 35..................... 513 Defendant's Exhibit No. 36..................... 514 22
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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION
3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235
7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume III
12 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the
13 Trial Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young, upon oral
14 examination in the above?styled cause, for the
15 purposes of use at trial and for all other purposes
16 as are permitted pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil
17 Procedure, proceedings therefor were held before
18 Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered Professional
19 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary
20 Public in and for the State of Florida at large, at
21 220 East Madison Street, 12th Floor Conference
22 Room, Tampa, Florida, on February 9, 2000.
23 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by
24 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector.
25
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1 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were
2 had and taken:
3 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness
4 by the Plaintiff, having been previously duly
5 sworn, continued to testify as follows:
6 CROSS?EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q. Now, you understand that Lisa McPherson
9 was a Scientologist, a practicing Scientologist her
10 entire adult life, you understand that, don't you?
11 A. I ?? well, I don't know the entire adult
12 life but I know she was a practicing Scientologist.
13 Q. For a number of years?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that for most of that time you
16 understand that she was a member of the public?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Which means that she was not on staff
19 during that period of time?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. She was ?? members of the public are
22 people that work in businesses outside of the
23 church organizations and choose to practice
24 Scientology as their religion, correct?
25 A. The simplest way is just say just nonstaff
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1 and they are just off staff practicing Scientology.
2 Q. Now, you understand that Lisa McPherson,
3 like other members of the public, participated in a
4 variety of Scientology tech or technology over the
5 years, including both auditing and training,
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Her beliefs were sincere as far as you
9 know, correct?
10 A. I don't know which were sincere or not but
11 I'm sure she had sincere beliefs.
12 Q. As far as you know she was committed to
13 her religion, correct?
14 A. I don't know ?? I don't know that, sir.
15 Q. As far as you know?
16 A. No, I don't know that.
17 Q. Well, you don't know that she wasn't, do
18 you?
19 A. No, I don't. I just know that she
20 practiced it, but as far as adhering to it as a
21 religion, I don't know that part.
22 Q. Well, you know that she participated in
23 church activities in Clearwater, you know that,
24 don't you?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And you do agree, don't you, that there
2 are many people in the world who sincerely ascribe
3 to Scientology as their religion, you understand
4 that, don't you?
5 A. I don't know what is meant by many.
6 Q. Well, you understand that there are a
7 number of people in the world that sincerely
8 ascribe to Scientology as their religion?
9 A. I know there are some people in the world
10 but I don't know how many.
11 Q. Well, you came across members of the
12 public when you were in Scientology for 21 years
13 that you know sincerely ascribed to Scientology as
14 their religion, didn't you?
15 A. Yes, but I came across more who didn't.
16 Q. And you know that ?? by the way, have
17 you ?? how many staff members, staff members now,
18 since you left Scientology have you talked to in
19 the last 10 years as to their ?? as to their
20 religious beliefs?
21 A. As to religious beliefs, none.
22 Q. And how many members of the public who are
23 Scientologists, practicing Scientologists, have you
24 talked to since you left Scientology as to their
25 religious beliefs?
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1 A. As to religious beliefs, again, none.
2 Q. Okay. So as you sit here today, you
3 certainly cannot say from your experience in the
4 last 10 years whether or not any ?? whether there
5 are any members of the public or members of the
6 staff that aren't sincerely ?? that do not
7 sincerely believe that Scientology is a religion?
8 A. I'm sorry. I lost the negative.
9 Q. It was formulated in a fashion that was ??
10 that turned out to be confusing.
11 As you sit here today, since you haven't
12 talked to either a member of the public or a member
13 of the staff in the last 10 years, since you left
14 Scientology, as to their religious beliefs, you
15 don't know?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. You don't know whether the members of the
18 public that go to Flag for religious services are
19 sincere or not, do you?
20 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
21 A. No, I can ?? I say I can because the ??
22 the formulation of your question was did we discuss
23 religion. I've spoken with Scientologists but I've
24 spoken with them pretty much in the way I did
25 before. We spoke about standard tech or the
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1 technology, et cetera. We did not discuss
2 religion. We might discuss Scientology but not a
3 religious nature belief but as a therapy or
4 practice to improve one's life, et cetera.
5 Q. Well, we'll get to that, but now the
6 technology, as you say, what's referred to as the
7 tech in Scientology, is the auditing and training
8 primarily, right?
9 A. Primarily, yes.
10 Q. Okay. And the auditing and training ??
11 well, the training and technology is really the
12 fundamental belief system, right?
13 A. The training is ??
14 Q. That has to do with the fundamental belief
15 system in Scientology, correct?
16 A. No, no. Training has ??
17 Q. It has nothing ??
18 A. Training has nothing to do with the belief
19 system.
20 Q. Well, the courses that one takes to go up
21 the bridge, those courses have to do with the
22 fundamental beliefs that underlie what Scientology
23 is all about, don't they?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, in Scientology, in your Scientology
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1 auditing ?? you did audit ?? you were audited, you
2 were ?? from time to time you were an auditor and
3 you were audited as a Scientologist, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in your Scientology auditing you
6 address or addressed back then incidents in
7 previous incarnations, correct, you would do that?
8 A. That's a difficult question to respond to
9 from a perspective then and a perspective now.
10 Q. Back then, when you were participating in
11 it, you addressed incidents in previous
12 incarnations or past lives, right?
13 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Are you now
14 getting into his PC file?
15 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know what you're
16 talking about.
17 MR. DANDAR: You don't know what I'm
18 talking about?
19 MR. WEINBERG: No. What I am ??
20 MR. HERTZBERG: Is that an objection?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Is that an objection?
22 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, because if you're
23 getting into the files that your client claims
24 are privileged, then I want to know on what
25 basis ??
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1 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not getting into ??
2 I'm not getting into his PC files.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q. You understood my question, didn't you?
5 A. I understand your question but ??
6 Q. In your Scientology auditing, did you
7 address incidents in past lives or previous
8 incarnations?
9 A. So you do want me to discuss my auditing?
10 Q. I'm just asking you if you addressed past
11 lives?
12 MR. DANDAR: Do not answer the question.
13 You either take the position that they are
14 privileged and confidential, or you tell the
15 court now that they are waived, in which case
16 we wonder why you appealed ?? I mean objected
17 to the PC files of Lisa McPherson.
18 MR. WEINBERG: That's the most outrageous
19 ?? it's the most outrageous objection I've
20 ever seen. I mean you can't have it both
21 ways.
22 MR. DANDAR: No, you can't have it both
23 ways.
24 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not asking him
25 about his PC folder.
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1 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you are.
2 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not. I'm asking
3 him whether when he was in Scientology if he
4 believed at the time that there were previous
5 incarnations.
6 MR. DANDAR: That's a different question.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q. Did you believe that at the time?
9 A. I don't mind responding. I have to defer
10 to counsel if he has an objection.
11 Q. Did you believe that at the time?
12 MR. DANDAR: That's a different question.
13 Q. Did you believe that at the time?
14 A. I'm sorry. Give me the question again,
15 please.
16 Q. Did you believe at the time when you were
17 in Scientology about incidents in previous past
18 lives or incarnations?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you believed at the time that you were
21 a spiritual being as opposed to a body in this
22 lifetime, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you participated in auditing, both as
25 an auditor and one audited, as to issues like that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And from time to time you and others, from
3 your experience, would experience relief for what
4 you considered to be spiritual gain, right?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. Now, going back to people, you quarrel
7 with many, so let's just take many out of it and
8 say that there are people in the United States and
9 in the world who sincerely ascribe to Scientology
10 as their religion, correct?
11 A. I would accept that.
12 Q. And those people, those people who
13 subscribe to Scientology as their religion believe,
14 among other things, that man is an immortal
15 spiritual being, right?
16 A. That gets to be difficult to start to
17 speculate on.
18 Q. Scientologists believe that man is an
19 immortal spiritual being, don't they?
20 A. It is one of the tenets of it. How much
21 they believe it, I don't know.
22 Q. And Scientologists believe that the
23 immortal spiritual being or they call the immortal
24 spiritual being a thetan, right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And Scientologists believe that the
2 fundamental aim of Scientology is a civilization
3 without insanity, without criminals and without
4 wars, where the able can prosper and honest things
5 can have rights and where man is free to rise to
6 greater heights, correct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Scientologists don't believe that?
9 A. No. That was Mr. Hubbard's writing.
10 Q. And that's one of the fundamental tenets
11 of Scientology, isn't' it, what I just read, that's
12 called the aim of Scientology, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you are an expert on Scientology, you
15 said, right?
16 A. I said I've been called as an expert.
17 Q. Right. So that you would agree that one
18 of the fundamental tenets of Scientology is what I
19 just read you?
20 A. I just agreed. It's the aims of
21 Scientology.
22 Q. Now, Scientologists believe that man is
23 basically good, don't they?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As opposed to some other religions that
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1 sort of believe that man is inherently evil?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Scientologists believe that there are
4 eight dynamics, don't they?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that the seventh dynamic is
7 essentially the spirit, correct?
8 A. It's got different names. One of them is
9 spirit.
10 Q. And that the eighth dynamic is infinity or
11 God or a higher being, correct?
12 A. Again, that one has gone through a lot of
13 evolution of names but it was originally called the
14 infinity dynamic back in the early '50s.
15 Q. But it's some sort of higher being,
16 correct?
17 A. The thing that came about was you call it
18 what you want, it's just what's ever left over
19 after you do seven, which is just the rest of the
20 universe.
21 Q. Scientologists believe that there is a
22 bridge to total freedom consisting of central
23 practices of auditing and training, is that
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And they believe that mental illness is
2 spiritual in nature, correct?
3 A. I don't know how many believe it but it's
4 taught, I will say that.
5 Q. And they certainly believe, and you would
6 confirm this as someone that purports to know a lot
7 about Scientology, that they, they being
8 Scientologists, have lived more than once, correct?
9 A. Most who have done auditing for a while
10 come to believe that, yes.
11 Q. And Scientologists believe that they will
12 continue to live in another lifetime, correct?
13 A. The same answer: Most who have done
14 auditing for a while come to believe that. I have
15 to say that because, you know, there's people that
16 take a communication course, read a book, consider
17 themselves to be Scientologists, who don't step
18 into that level of ?? or that attitude.
19 Q. Right. Scientology is like any other
20 religion, where not everybody believes the same
21 thing or everything, correct?
22 A. No, I wouldn't characterize it that way at
23 all. What I just described is not the same.
24 Q. All right. But I mean one is free in this
25 country to believe what one wants to believe with
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1 regard to his religious beliefs, correct?
2 A. Until you're on a Scientology course, then
3 you duplicate it exactly and only one way to
4 believe it.
5 Q. All right. Well, let's go through that
6 then. Scientologists believe that they will
7 continue to live in another lifetime, right, many
8 Scientologists believe that?
9 A. I have to do the same answer. Most of
10 those, to, as they say, to exclude those who have
11 just done a communications course or read a book.
12 I'd concede those who have done auditing for a
13 while would believe that.
14 Q. And Scientologists believe that it is
15 possible to recollect past existence and
16 identities, correct?
17 A. Same response, if I may.
18 Q. Okay. And that when you were a
19 Scientologist, you believed many or all of those
20 things, didn't you?
21 A. Probably most of them.
22 Q. And Scientologists believe that after they
23 die, they will pick up a new body and could even
24 pick up on what they call the gray chart, where
25 they left off in a previous lifetime, correct?
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1 A. That was a seriously debated point at
2 times. I ??
3 Q. But there are people that believe that in
4 Scientology, don't they?
5 A. Oh, man, there is people who believe
6 everything in there.
7 Q. Okay. Now, Scientologists believe that
8 psychiatry is evil, don't they?
9 A. I don't know how much that is a belief or
10 how much it's just an avocation. I can't speak to
11 that.
12 Q. Well, if there was any subject that was
13 focused on more by Mr. Hubbard, it would be the
14 evils of psychiatry, correct?
15 A. It was one of his favorites, that is
16 correct.
17 Q. One of the worst ?? I think you even
18 acknowledged this. One of the worst things that
19 could happen to a Scientologist would be to be
20 committed to a mental institution?
21 A. Well, it was more than that, if I may. It
22 was committed, electric shock, you know. We did ??
23 you did a statement that encompassed the whole sort
24 of 1950 form of psychiatry and I said yes, that
25 would be it.
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1 Q. Right, because the belief of Scientology
2 in, you know, spiritual being is ?? and in dealing
3 with mental issues spiritually is absolutely
4 contrary to the notion of what occurs in psychiatry
5 in mental hospitals, right?
6 A. I don't understand your question.
7 Q. Well, Scientologists certainly believe
8 that they should deal with mental issues in a
9 spiritual way, we've already established that.
10 A. No. See, I have to ?? I take objection on
11 the spiritual. They deal with them Hubbard's way,
12 standard tech way, Green on White, Red on White
13 way. Some might call it a spiritual way but it's
14 dealt with Scientology methods.
15 Q. A way that is set forth by Scientology,
16 right?
17 A. By Hubbard.
18 Q. As opposed to dealing with mental issues
19 by ??
20 A. Freud.
21 Q. ?? as psychiatrists would, by, you know,
22 psychotropic drugs, by electric shock, by committal
23 into a mental institution or anything like that,
24 correct?
25 A. Well, see, that's the problem. Psychiatry
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1 is a huge subject. There's a lot of psychiatrists
2 that will treat you by rubbing your neck, I mean so
3 that the definition that was presented to
4 Scientologists was psychiatrist is drugs, electric
5 shock, straightjacket, without recognizing there is
6 a huge wide range of therapy methods out there.
7 Q. So when you were ??
8 A. When it was always defined, it's always a
9 very narrow one, completely disregarding all the ??
10 Jungian therapy, you know, on ??
11 Q. When you were a Scientologist, you could
12 not imagine going to a psychologist, could you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You could not imagine being committed to a
15 mental institute, could you?
16 A. Not the way he described it, no.
17 Q. No Scientologist, no person that ascribes
18 to these beliefs that we have gone through in the
19 last few minutes, no Scientologist would
20 voluntarily go to a mental institute, would they?
21 A. I don't know that. We had people going to
22 psychiatrists voluntarily. It was always a problem
23 for us. When I answered no to that, remember, I
24 was staff, and so I was heavily trained in this.
25 Q. It is ?? you would not have gone
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1 voluntarily to a mental institute when you were a
2 Scientologist, would you?
3 A. No.
4 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a break. We've
5 been going for an hour and a half.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
7 (Recess.)
8 MR. WEINBERG: Just to complete the
9 record ??
10 MR. DANDAR: Is this 15?
11 MR. WEINBERG: This is 9. This is the
12 one that we didn't have the ??
13 MR. DANDAR: The missing page.
14 MR. WEINBERG: This is the IRS acceptance
15 letter, October '93, with regard to Flag
16 Service Organization.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q. Now, I believe ?? well, more than believe.
19 You suggested in your direct testimony in this
20 trial that there was no mention that Scientology
21 was a religion in any of the books that you were
22 provided when you first joined the church in the
23 late '60s, is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the suggestion was, is that you were
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1 provided a number of writings of Mr. Hubbard which
2 included transcripts of lectures and books and
3 other writings and none of them said anything about
4 religion, right?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And that your testimony is that the
7 concept of religion was essentially created in the
8 '70s as part of the campaign for acceptance, right?
9 A. What was your verb, created?
10 Q. Essentially, that the concept of religion,
11 Scientology as a religion was essentially created
12 in the 1970s while you were in the church as part
13 of some sort of a campaign for acceptance?
14 A. It wasn't exactly what I testified.
15 Q. But something like that though, right?
16 A. Basically, yes.
17 Q. Yeah. Now, the truth is, sir, as someone
18 that professes to be an expert on Scientology, that
19 Mr. Hubbard, years before you joined the church in
20 the late '60s, wrote and lectured about Scientology
21 as a religion, isn't that true?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you reviewed or read those lectures
24 and those works when you first joined Scientology?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Well, I was under the impression that when
2 you joined Scientology, there were certain
3 fundamental works that you read and were provided.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Amongst those were the Phoenix Lectures,
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, what is ?? what do you understand the
9 Phoenix Lectures to be, do you know?
10 A. The Phoenix Lectures were a series of
11 lectures, transcripts, made into book form of a
12 series of lectures that he gave in Phoenix in the
13 early '50s.
14 Q. And this is some of the most fundamental
15 work of Mr. Hubbard with regard to ?? as part of
16 the body of writings concerning Scientology, right?
17 A. I'm sorry. It's a pick and choose when
18 you say what's the most fundamental. I mean Book
19 One, Dianetics, is considered to be the most basic.
20 Science of Survival is also a basic. So it's a
21 pick and choose when you get into fundamental at
22 that point.
23 Q. But certainly Scientology, Its General
24 Background, Parts One through Three, which are the
25 Phoenix Lectures, is fundamental writings of
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1 Mr. Hubbard concerning Scientology?
2 A. That's okay. I'll deal with that.
3 Q. And in those writings Mr. Hubbard makes it
4 very clear that Scientology is a religion, correct?
5 A. There is places where he says that.
6 Q. And in those writings Mr. Hubbard tracks
7 the origins of Scientology through other religions,
8 including Far Eastern religions, Hinduism, Taoism,
9 Buddhism, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And in these writings Mr. Hubbard
12 describes basically how Scientology developed out
13 of other religious philosophies and beliefs, not
14 just Eastern but Western religions as well?
15 A. Can you give me that one again?
16 Q. Yeah, she can read it to you.
17 (The question was read by the reporter:
18 Question: In these writings Mr. Hubbard
19 describes basically how Scientology developed out
20 of other religious philosophies and beliefs, not
21 just Eastern but Western religions as well?)
22 A. He gives an account which I even contested
23 then, but it's his account and description but it's
24 actually inaccurate.
25 Q. You contest it because you know that
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1 Mr. Hubbard did not develop Scientology out of his
2 understanding of traditions and beliefs in other
3 religions?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And so you were how old in 1955, when
6 these lectures were done, or 1954, when these
7 lectures were done?
8 A. Well, '54, I would have been probably
9 maybe 16 or 17.
10 Q. And you had not joined the Church of
11 Scientology at that point, right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You had not read about Scientology at that
14 point?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You didn't know Mr. Hubbard, correct?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, you were referred to these works by
19 the gentleman that was running the mission in Davis
20 when you joined in '68, '69?
21 A. No. Can I clarify it?
22 Q. Sure.
23 A. I was given the material by the gentleman
24 who was going to be the one to do it. This was
25 prior to him doing it.
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1 Q. Okay. And you read it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now ??
4 A. His name was Martin Samuels.
5 Q. In your direct testimony, on page 26,
6 Mr. Dandar asked you ?? let me show you this, if I
7 can. Lines 14, Mr. Dandar asked you the following
8 question: Was there any mention in any of the
9 books that he ?? that is Mr. ?? what's his name,
10 Daniels?
11 A. Samuels.
12 Q. Samuels ?? was there any mention in any of
13 the books that he provided to you that you read
14 that Scientology is a religion?
15 Answer: If there was, it went by me and I
16 wasn't interested.
17 Question: Was there any mention in the
18 name of this franchise that it was a religion or a
19 church?
20 Not initially, no.
21 Now, when you said that if there was with
22 regard to a reference to religion it went by me,
23 that wasn't true, was it?
24 A. When I responded to that I wasn't thinking
25 of the Phoenix Lectures.
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1 Q. Except that that was one of the things
2 that you referred to in your testimony?
3 A. Right. And also, as I had said at the
4 time, I was reading that while I was a graduate
5 student in philosophy, so my context of it at that
6 time was quite different. So it didn't really
7 stick with me as religion, it was just somebody
8 writing about a philosophy.
9 Q. Well, writing about a religious
10 philosophy?
11 A. No, writing about a philosophy, a
12 therapeutic philosophy.
13 Q. Well, Part III ?? do you remember that
14 there were three parts to the Phoenix Lectures?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you remember that in Part III ??
17 well, do we have a copy?
18 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 15 was marked for
19 identification.)
20 Q. Let me mark as an exhibit, the next
21 exhibit, which is 15 ??
22 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, I'm sorry. I don't
23 have a copy of this.
24 Q. ?? Part III, Scientology, Its General
25 Background, Part III, and ask you if that was part
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1 of the ?? if that was part of the Phoenix Lectures
2 which you reviewed when you first joined the church
3 in 1968, '69?
4 A. I wouldn't be able to speak to this at
5 all. I would only be able to speak to it if it was
6 a copy of the Phoenix Lectures as originally
7 printed.
8 Q. Talking about in the book?
9 A. No, I can't, because these ?? the reprints
10 of these into other volumes got extensively edited
11 and revised, which is what I submitted into
12 evidence in my deposition. If you have a copy of
13 the Phoenix Lectures, I'd be happy to speak to
14 that, but I'm not going to speak to something
15 that's been reprinted years later in order to build
16 a religious image.
17 Q. I see. So ?? just so it's clear, you're
18 referring to Exhibit what is that?
19 A. 15.
20 Q. Do you deny that Mr. Hubbard spoke in 1954
21 in the Phoenix Lectures in which he said:
22 Continuing on the religious and ?? religious and
23 knowledge background of Scientology, we will look
24 at Buddhism. We don't wonder that a great change
25 took place in the operating climate of man because
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1 it certainly did.
2 And so forth and so on. Do you deny that
3 he spoke about the background of Scientology from
4 Buddhism and Veda and Dhyana, do you deny that?
5 A. No, I don't deny that.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I just stated my objection as well as I
8 could.
9 Q. Now, do you ??
10 A. This seems awfully short for Part III.
11 MR. TITUS: I move to strike that as
12 nonresponsive. There is no question pending.
13 Q. Do you recall, sir, that Hubbard speaks
14 about tracks through various religions that he
15 relied on starting with Veda, Buddhism,
16 Christianity, the Old Testament, Christianity,
17 Judaism, do you recall that from the lecture?
18 A. No, not specifically as far as tracks.
19 Q. Well, do you recall that Mr. Hubbard said
20 as early as 1954, 15 years before you say that the
21 religion went right by you when you were looking at
22 the materials, do you remember that Mr. Hubbard
23 spoke about how, quote, "The very same thing that
24 the Buddhists hoped for became the hope, and this
25 is what is very interesting, became the hope of the
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1 Christian world, emancipation from the body, the
2 survival and immortality of the human soul," as he
3 was describing how he developed Scientology?
4 A. I don't remember ??
5 Q. Do you deny that?
6 A. No, I don't deny it.
7 Q. Well, do you remember that Mr. Hubbard
8 spoke in the lecture that, "Scientology then today
9 could not possibly be characterized, could not
10 possibly be characterized as a science the way the
11 Western world understands science. Scientology
12 carries forward a tradition of wisdom which
13 concerns itself about the soul and the solution of
14 mysteries of life and that is what it concerns
15 itself with. It has not really deviated." Do you
16 deny that he said that?
17 A. I don't deny it.
18 Q. And do you recall that Mr. Hubbard said in
19 this work that you reviewed in '68, '69, "That as
20 far as Scientology being a religion is concerned,
21 it has more right to be a religion than the
22 Catholic church has and could stand up and be
23 proven in court to that effect. Anybody who would
24 dare try to make religion into solely a religious
25 practice would be neglecting the very background of
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1 Christianity. Wisdom has no great tradition in the
2 Western world but if we are very industrious, it
3 will be up to us to make one." Do you remember
4 that he said that?
5 A. I don't remember that he said that.
6 Q. You don't remember that Mr. Hubbard said
7 that Scientology has more right to be a religion
8 than the Catholic church, you don't remember that?
9 A. No, I don't remember that particular
10 phrase but ??
11 Q. That would certainly indicate that he was
12 referring, if, in fact, he said that, that he was
13 talking about Scientology as a religion long before
14 1970, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, did you read The Hope of Man, the
17 lecture given in 1955?
18 A. I'm trying to remember if I did or not. I
19 don't remember if I did or not.
20 Q. Well, at some point you have, haven't you?
21 A. Possibly. I've read so many books.
22 Q. Well, you do profess to be an expert on
23 Scientology, right?
24 A. The question was whether or not I've read
25 one particular essay. I don't remember.
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1 Q. Yeah, but these are ?? Scientologists
2 would refer to these as some of the fundamental
3 scripture of Scientology, The Hope of Man, right?
4 A. I don't think any Scientologist would pull
5 out The Hope of Man as a fundamental scripture, no.
6 Q. Well, wasn't The Hope of ?? well, wasn't
7 The Hope of Man part of the minister's course that
8 you did?
9 A. I don't believe that was when I did it in
10 1971.
11 Q. Well, was the Phoenix Lectures part of the
12 minister's course?
13 A. A portion of the Phoenix Lectures were on
14 but not ?? I don't know if the entire book was but
15 I know at least a portion of it was.
16 Q. Now, let me mark, and I will substitute a
17 clean copy because I didn't bring copies, this one
18 has my markings on it ??
19 MR. DANDAR: What are you pulling out.
20 Can you identify it?
21 MR. WEINBERG: The Hope of Man, The Hope
22 of Man, and we'll ?? I think when it copies it
23 will not have the yellow markings. No, we've
24 got it now.
25 MR. DANDAR: Thank you, Lara.
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1 Exhibit 16.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Exhibit 16, The Hope of
3 Man.
4 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 16 was marked for
5 identification.)
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q. You have heard of The Hope of Man, right?
8 A. Yeah, I have.
9 Q. And you do know that it was a lecture that
10 Mr. Hubbard gave with regard to Scientology, right?
11 A. I don't know that it was a lecture or ??
12 MR. DANDAR: Is this where he says it's
13 more of a religion than the Catholic church?
14 MR. WEINBERG: No. He said that in the
15 Phoenix Lectures, Part III, that we just
16 reviewed.
17 MR. DANDAR: That wasn't identified by
18 the witness as being a complete copy.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, I guess
20 that's ??
21 MR. DANDAR: Actually, it's what you
22 reviewed. Are we marking the Phoenix ?? are
23 we marking the Phoenix?
24 MR. WEINBERG: It's already been marked.
25 MR. DANDAR: But you don't have an
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1 extra ??
2 MR. WEINBERG: The Phoenix Lecture was
3 marked.
4 MR. DANDAR: You don't have an extra copy
5 of that one?
6 MR. WEINBERG: No.
7 MR. HERTZBERG: Which one?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Part III.
9 MR. DANDAR: Is that Exhibit 15, right?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q. Okay. Now, after reviewing that, do you
13 remember reading The Hope of Man?
14 A. I'm sure I read it. I don't remember it
15 in particular but I'm sure I read it.
16 Q. Well, if you go to page 2, the second full
17 paragraph, the last ??
18 A. Starting ??
19 Q. If he thinks of this, is that what it
20 says?
21 A. I'm missing page 2.
22 Q. We've just got a different ??
23 A. No. This thing has only got every
24 other ?? this has only got odd numbered pages.
25 MR. MOXON: Look on the back side, the
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1 back side.
2 THE WITNESS: There is no back side.
3 MR. WEINBERG: We'll mark mine. What
4 exhibit is that?
5 MR. DANDAR: It's 15. The Hope of Man is
6 16, yes, but we only have the odd pages.
7 MR. WEINBERG: This one has all the
8 pages, and I'll substitute a clean copy when
9 we're done.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q. If you look at 16, now, if we go to page
12 2, which is on the back, the second full paragraph,
13 Mr. Hubbard writes or speaks, "This is not to frown
14 in any way upon the principles and beliefs of other
15 religions but is, nevertheless, demonstrable, too
16 accurately demonstrable, that an individual isn't
17 finished with the game once his body dies. We are
18 on a much higher level in Scientology than the
19 Western religions have been but we are not on a
20 higher level in Scientology except in our
21 technologies, except in the exactness of our
22 understanding, than those great religious leaders
23 of India who kept the spirit, the spiritual side of
24 life alive for thousands of years against
25 materialistic ingression.
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1 "What we are doing," skipping on a little
2 further down the page, "What we are doing with this
3 data is new. The way this material is organized is
4 new. The technologies of which we can bring about
5 a new state of being in man are new, but the basic
6 idea, the basic hope of man as it appears today in
7 Scientology is thousands of years old. If we call
8 Scientology a religion, we are calling it a
9 religion out of a much deeper well than the last
10 2000 years."
11 Do you remember reading writings ?? that
12 writing or hearing lectures given by Mr. Hubbard
13 concerning the origins of Scientology as a
14 religion?
15 A. I recall hearing him or reading him saying
16 things similar to that.
17 Q. Right. And if he said this 15 years
18 before you went to Davis, that would indicate, did
19 it not, that the idea of religion in Scientology
20 came long before 1970?
21 A. As an option, that was my point that I was
22 testifying, it was always an option for us to play.
23 Q. Okay. Now, let me read ?? let me refer
24 you to page 9 of this same Exhibit 16, which is The
25 Hope of Man. At the bottom: "I am very, very
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1 happy to see you here," Mr. Hubbard says. "I have
2 a great deal to tell you that is technical. I want
3 to tell you first that we have a practical
4 religion, and before you say religion, grrr, think
5 of that. It's a practical religion and religion is
6 the oldest heritage man has. Many, many of those
7 present are ministers, the fact is that we do not
8 fit at all or influence or have any real contact
9 with medicine, certainly not with psychiatry. We
10 do not exist in the tradition of psychology. We
11 could only exist in the field of religion. Of
12 course, it would be up to us to make religion a
13 better thing than it has been and to use it to run
14 much better 8?C on our fellow man. Thank you."
15 Now, that doesn't sound like some
16 equivocation as far as Mr. Hubbard is concerned
17 that Scientology, as of 1955, is a religion, does
18 it?
19 A. If you take only that piece and don't
20 refer to his other pieces, you can get that
21 impression, yes.
22 MR. DANDAR: What page was that you
23 just ??
24 MR. WEINBERG: That was the last page of
25 the document.
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1 MR. DANDAR: What page number is it
2 though?
3 MR. WEINBERG: 9.
4 MR. DANDAR: Page 9 of Exhibit 16?
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q. And of course, you weren't there in 1955,
7 were you?
8 A. No.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to go ahead and
10 change it now?
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes.
12 (Recess.)
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q. Now, one of the books that you said you
15 read when you first joined Scientology was L. Ron
16 Hubbard's Scientology 0?8, The Book of Basics,
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in The Book of Basics there were a
20 variety of documents, including such things as the
21 creed of the Church of Scientology, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you know because you were in
24 Scientology for 21 years, that the creed dates back
25 to 1955?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Not 1970?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And the creed of the Church of
5 Scientology, I'll read it to you and you tell me if
6 I'm reading it correctly. Do you want to follow
7 along? Let me give you a copy.
8 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 17 was marked for
9 identification.)
10 Q. Actually, we'll mark a copy but it appears
11 in the book, right, the creed appears in this book,
12 right?
13 A. The copy you've handed me says it's from
14 the ceremonies of the founding church.
15 Q. I know, but I mean the creed ??
16 A. Is that what it says, page 47?
17 Q. Yeah, it's 47?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. 47 and 48.
20 A. The four on the top of the page.
21 Q. Right.
22 MR. DANDAR: Is that an exhibit?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
24 A. Okay.
25 MR. DANDAR: What's the name of the book?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: The book is L. Ron
2 Hubbard, Scientology, 0?8, The Book of Basics.
3 Q. And we'll ??
4 MR. DANDAR: Is that Exhibit 17?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, I guess the book
6 but ??
7 A. That book is very valuable.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, we can't ?? I will ??
9 we will provide some substitute because this
10 actually is like somebody's.
11 A. Those things sell for good money.
12 MR. DANDAR: The train on the front of the
13 book?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
15 A. If I may, because the printing date is
16 what's important on these. The last print on this
17 one was 1969.
18 MR. DANDAR: Are you representing your
19 copy came out of that book.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
21 A. This is a first edition, 1970. Wow, look
22 at this. This is from somebody's library.
23 Q. Yeah, the copy came right out of the book.
24 MR. DANDAR: So that would be Exhibit 17,
25 the copy?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Right, Exhibit 17 is the
2 copy.
3 A. Did you want to mark mine?
4 Q. Yeah.
5 MR. DANDAR: You said it was a 1970
6 copyright?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 Q. Now ??
9 A. Which makes that odd. I couldn't have
10 read it in '68, I just realized.
11 Q. Well, I think that ?? well, I mean that's
12 what you testified to.
13 A. I may have been wrong on the 0?8. I did
14 8?80 ?? I know I did 8?80?0?8, and I did 8?80. I
15 may have been wrong on the 0?8 book but I read that
16 in '68.
17 Q. You certainly read it early on though,
18 right?
19 A. But I read it early on, yes.
20 Q. All right. And it contained, among other
21 things, the creed which dates back years before you
22 joined Scientology, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the creed, which is Exhibit 17, says:
25 We the church believe:
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1 That all men of whatever race, color or
2 creed were created with equal rights; that all men
3 have inalienable rights to their own religious
4 practices and their performance; that all men have
5 inalienable rights to their own lives; that all men
6 have inalienable rights to their sanity; that all
7 men have inalienable rights to their own defense;
8 that all men have inalienable rights to conceive,
9 choose, assist and support their own organizations,
10 churches and governments; that all men have
11 inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely,
12 to write freely their own opinions and to counter
13 or utter or write upon their opinions of others;
14 that all men have inalienable rights to the
15 creation of their own kind; that the souls of men
16 have the rights of men; and that the study of the
17 mind and the healing of mentally caused ills should
18 not be alienated from religion or condoned in
19 nonreligious fields; and that no agency less than
20 God has the power to suspend or set aside these
21 rights, overtly or covertly.
22 And we of the church believe: That man is
23 basically good; that he is seeking to survive; that
24 his survival depends upon himself and upon his
25 fellows and his attainment of brotherhood with the
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1 universe.
2 And we of the church believe that the laws
3 of God forbid man: To destroy his own kind; to
4 destroy the sanity of another; to destroy or
5 enslave another soul; to destroy or reduce the
6 survival of one's companions or one's group.
7 And we of the church believe that the
8 spirit can be saved and that the spirit alone may
9 save or heal the body.
10 That's what the creed says, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that is long before 1970, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And this is a document that speaks in
15 terms of the spiritual and religious philosophy of
16 Scientology, doesn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I mean you would acknowledge that the
19 roots of Scientology are, in part, in Far Eastern
20 religions like Buddhism, wouldn't you?
21 A. No, not at all.
22 Q. Not at all. But certainly Mr. Hubbard
23 said so, didn't he?
24 A. He said so.
25 Q. Now, you became ?? you took the minister's
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1 course and were ordained as a Scientology minister,
2 is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when was that, sir?
5 A. I believe that was 1971.
6 Q. And where was that?
7 A. San Francisco.
8 Q. And you had to take a course to do that,
9 didn't you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And as part of that course you had to read
12 various Scientology tech, correct?
13 A. There was material by Mr. Hubbard. I
14 don't know how else to describe it.
15 Q. And as a result of you becoming a
16 minister, you did wear religious garb at
17 ceremonies, did you not?
18 A. At times.
19 Q. You wore a collar at times?
20 A. At times.
21 Q. Not every day, did you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You married people, didn't you?
24 A. A couple of times.
25 Q. At least three times, didn't you?
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1 A. Maybe three. I'm easy.
2 Q. You were married in the Church of
3 Scientology, weren't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you were married by a Scientology
6 minister, weren't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How many times were you married in the
9 Church of Scientology, once or twice?
10 A. Just once.
11 Q. Okay. So you and Stacy were married in
12 the Church of Scientology?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And who was your minister?
15 A. Arty Marin, who was the deputy guardian
16 for public relations in the Guardian's Office.
17 Q. And he had been ordained before or after
18 you, do you know?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. And you viewed your marriage at the time
21 to be a very important event, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You viewed it to be lawful, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you certainly ?? and there was a
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1 Scientology ceremony that you went through when you
2 were married, is that right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is there a Scientology ceremony for
5 marriage?
6 A. There might be. Most people just write
7 their own. We wrote our own.
8 Q. Is there a book that is referred ?? when
9 you were marrying people, did you use a Scientology
10 book to refer to?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Well ??
13 A. I asked them ?? they would ?? usually it
14 was as in the tradition, they would design their
15 own ceremonies and write them up as to how they
16 wanted it worded. That's how Stacy and I did ours.
17 It was a wording that we enjoyed.
18 Q. Well, you certainly recall that there were
19 ?? there was a book entitled The Background and
20 Ceremonies of the Church of Scientology of
21 California World Wide that was published prior to
22 you becoming a minister, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Long prior to you becoming a minister,
25 right?
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1 A. I don't know what the copyright date on
2 that book is that you're looking at.
3 Q. I'll mark it as an exhibit.
4 A. Because it was created while I was in the
5 Guardian's Office, I believe.
6 Q. Oh, is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 18 was marked for
9 identification.)
10 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you the copyright
11 and maybe you'll ?? when did you become part of the
12 Guardian's Office?
13 A. 1971.
14 Q. So we'll mark this book as ??
15 A. These are also collector's items.
16 Q. What we'll do is we'll put ?? we will, for
17 the record, identify this as Exhibit ?? what is it?
18 A. 18.
19 MR. DANDAR: 18.
20 Q. We'll identify this for the record as
21 Exhibit 18. Okay. And I'm not going to put the
22 tag on it.
23 MR. DANDAR: Identify what it is or do you
24 want the witness to do that?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, I want the witness
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1 to do that. It's called The Church of
2 Scientology ??
3 Q. Here, I'll hand it to you. Yeah, it's
4 the same one.
5 MR. DANDAR: The books are the same?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
7 MR. DANDAR: The title of the book is?
8 MR. TITUS: Mr. Young, could you hold the
9 book up so we could see what it looks like?
10 What does the cover say?
11 THE WITNESS: The cover, it says The
12 Church of Scientology and it's embossed.
13 MR. TITUS: How about the side?
14 THE WITNESS: The spine says Background
15 and Ceremonies.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q. And there is the Scientology cross on the
18 cover, too, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What's the copyright of this book?
21 A. Well, the first title page says: The
22 Background and Ceremonies of the Church of
23 Scientology of California, World Wide. The next
24 page repeats that with a blank line, which might be
25 a place where a person I guess might put their
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1 name.
2 Q. Can you look at the page before? What's
3 the copy ??
4 A. And then it says the Church of
5 Scientology, World Wide, 1970, and then you turn
6 inside and there is the copyright page and it says
7 copyright 1970, 1972, L. Ron Hubbard, which means
8 it's actually published after 1970, clearly
9 after ??
10 Q. Excuse me. It says here the Church of
11 Scientology, World Wide, 1970, and it has copyright
12 1970. That's prior to 1971, isn't it?
13 A. Do you want to read what I'm reading from?
14 Q. The first time it was published was 1970
15 is what it says, and then there says acknowledgment
16 of copyright 1959, 1966, 1967 by L. Ron Hubbard.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, all rights reserved, and the next
19 line says copyright 1970 and 1972, L. Ron Hubbard.
20 Q. Okay. Well, what's that tell you? That
21 it's before 1971.
22 A. 1972 is after 1971.
23 Q. So is 1999, but 1970 and 1966 and 1967 and
24 1959 are before 1971.
25 A. Well, this couldn't have been published
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1 before 1971 if it's copyrighted material from 1972.
2 Q. No. My point, sir, is is that this book,
3 a book, this book of ceremonies was published prior
4 ?? for the first time prior to 1971 as indicated in
5 the copyrights.
6 A. I don't know that. I'm just reading right
7 here 1970, 1972.
8 MR. DANDAR: The book in his hand is
9 definitely '72.
10 A. And the instructions at that time on
11 copyright was we were to list the copyright of each
12 item in the book. If there was something from
13 1951, we said copyright 1951, '68, blah, blah,
14 blah, which means there is material in here from
15 '59, '66, '67, '70 and '72. So this book was
16 published in 1972.
17 MR. DANDAR: You will agree with that?
18 I'm sure you do?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. Whatever.
20 Q. Now, what this has ?? what this has is
21 all kinds of ceremonies, including wedding
22 ceremonies, right?
23 A. Just give me a second. I haven't seen one
24 of these in a while. Okay.
25 Q. This book includes all kind of ceremonies,
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1 including wedding and funeral and naming
2 ceremonies, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And as a minister, did you perform all of
5 those ceremonies?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You just performed weddings?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, when you performed the weddings, you
10 had to file a certificate with the county clerk,
11 correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. To document the fact that you had married
14 two people in the state of California?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Somebody did that for you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You had to sign the certificate, right?
19 A. I signed a certificate.
20 Q. As the Reverend Vaughn Young, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, do you remember using this book in
23 those ceremonies?
24 A. Never used it.
25 Q. Well, let's get some pictures and copy
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1 them.
2 MR. DANDAR: We're definitely going to
3 mark these as exhibits. I want laser copies.
4 A. I want laser copies, too.
5 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 19 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 Q. Let me show you and ask you if you ??
8 we'll mark this as Exhibit ?? what's the next
9 number, 19?
10 A. Well, let's see. This was ??
11 Q. 17, the book was 18. This is 19. I'll
12 show you what is Exhibit 19.
13 A. This is great. I love it.
14 MR. TITUS: Objection. Move to strike
15 comments from the witness as nonresponsive.
16 There's no question pending.
17 MR. DANDAR: Party pooper. He's having a
18 good time here.
19 Q. Well, I consider this serious business,
20 Mr. Young. I don't know about you.
21 A. Oh, I consider it serious business, too.
22 Q. Now, you recognize yourself in that
23 picture, right?
24 A. Wow, yes.
25 Q. And you're in full garb, right?
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1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. And you were performing a wedding, right?
3 A. I don't know if this is for a wedding or
4 what. I don't remember the particular event, all I
5 can see is a Christmas tree and ??
6 Q. What do you see in your hands?
7 A. It looks to be a copy of this.
8 Q. Of this being?
9 A. The Exhibit 18, and if you will notice,
10 there was a piece of white paper sticking out of
11 it, you will see in the photograph.
12 Q. Let me just ask you. Did you ?? that's
13 very illuminating but Exhibit 18 ?? Exhibit 18 is
14 the ceremony book with the marriage ceremonies in
15 it with the Scientology cross on it that you said
16 you never used, right?
17 A. Right, and inside was the document I was
18 actually using.
19 Q. I see. So you just sort of took it with
20 you for comfort, or what?
21 A. No. You took it because ?? for the PR
22 purposes to create the image. We did it like that
23 and then we had what we were going to read inside
24 to do it. So that's why when it closed, you could
25 see the little piece of paper sticking out just
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1 like that. So the ceremony that the people wanted
2 was this and this created the nice little religious
3 image this way.
4 Q. I see. So you told the people before you
5 married them in this very serious sacred ceremony
6 that this was all just a PR thing?
7 A. No. It was part of the image, the same as
8 the Christmas tree in the background. It's part of
9 an image.
10 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 20 was marked for
11 identification.)
12 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you another one,
13 and is this one of these ?? we'll mark this as the
14 next exhibit, which is 20. By the way, do you know
15 whose wedding that one was?
16 A. No, and I wish I knew where this gown came
17 from. Somebody ?? I think it was somebody's choir
18 gown that they loaned to me for something. I
19 certainly didn't own it.
20 Q. Do you recognize 20?
21 A. Yes, I do, and I recognize this kid and I,
22 for the life of me, cannot remember his name.
23 Q. How about Spurgeon?
24 A. That sounds familiar.
25 Q. All right. And you married him, didn't
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1 you?
2 A. He was probably ?? he was probably the
3 groom.
4 Q. Right. And that probably ?? in fact, that
5 definitely is the book of wedding ceremonies in
6 your hand there, right?
7 A. Yeah, with the ?? with his ceremony that
8 he wanted read to him inside.
9 Q. It looks like there is some writing on
10 that thing, doesn't it? Isn't that why you ??
11 doesn't that just look like it's opened to one of
12 the pages in the book?
13 A. It might have been, but as I said, they
14 had their own ceremony they wanted read.
15 Q. And you, of course, remember that better
16 than you remember his name, that you had his own
17 ceremony in your hands?
18 A. No.
19 Q. As opposed to the book that was in your
20 hands?
21 A. No. I remembered, even before you showed
22 me, that I never used the book, the ceremonies in
23 the book. I always used some ceremony that the
24 people wrote that they wanted to be their ceremony.
25 Q. Let me show you Number ?? what was that?
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1 A. We stopped at 20.
2 Q. ?? Number 21.
3 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 21 was marked for
4 identification.)
5 Q. By the way, you think these people might
6 have a better recollection of what the ceremony was
7 that they had better than you?
8 A. I don't know. I don't know.
9 Q. Well, you have a pretty good recollection
10 of your own marriages, right?
11 A. My getting married?
12 Q. Yes. That's a pretty important event in
13 one's life, to get married, right?
14 A. Yeah, but I was pretty nervous, too. I
15 don't even remember much what was going on. I was
16 pretty nervous.
17 Q. Well, but I mean one normally, you know,
18 has mementos from one's wedding, you know,
19 pictures, oftentimes if there was a special
20 ceremony, copies of that, you know, there are
21 scrapbooks and things like that, right?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And people in Scientology do that just as
24 Catholics and Jews and Unitarians and Protestants,
25 correct?
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1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. All right. So it's very likely that the
3 people in this picture that I'm about to show you,
4 where you're holding this book, would have a better
5 recollection than you as to what ceremony they had
6 when they were married, right?
7 A. Oh, that could well be.
8 Q. All right. Let me show you 21. Does that
9 refresh your recollection as to who you were
10 marrying?
11 A. I still don't get a name. I recognize the
12 girl, and this is in the lobby of the Fiefield
13 Manor, it was called, which later become Celebrity
14 Centre.
15 Q. You can see Mr. Hubbard's picture on the
16 wall, can't you?
17 A. He's over there in his ??
18 Q. Just answer the question.
19 A. Yeah, in mariner's garb, yeah. I don't
20 remember a name.
21 MR. DANDAR: Let me see.
22 A. I don't remember even what organization
23 they were in.
24 Q. Let me show you another ceremony. By the
25 way, do you remember when that wedding was that you
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1 did?
2 A. No. I was trying to date it by no beard,
3 because I had a beard for so long, and then I
4 shaved it off and I don't remember what year I
5 shaved it off. That's sort of the marking point,
6 but I don't remember.
7 MR. WEINBERG: What was that number?
8 MR. DANDAR: This is 21.
9 MR. WEINBERG: That's the last one.
10 MR. DANDAR: Spurgeon and ??
11 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 22 was marked for
12 identification.)
13 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you Exhibit 22 and
14 ask you if you recognize yourself again as marrying
15 two people in a Church of Scientology proceeding, a
16 ceremony, and yet again in your hands is the book
17 of ceremonies?
18 MR. DANDAR: You're not representing 20
19 and 21 are different ceremonies, are you?
20 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know. He's the
21 witness.
22 A. 22 is a different ceremony from 20 and
23 21.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Yes, and that's Gail Armstrong.
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1 Q. Which one?
2 A. In 22.
3 Q. Gail being the man or the woman?
4 A. The woman.
5 Q. Okay. And who is the man?
6 A. I can't remember her name.
7 Q. His name you mean? His name must be
8 Armstrong, right? Well, Gail Armstrong worked in
9 OSA, right?
10 A. Yeah, she was Department 20.
11 Q. Okay. Now, do you remember what ceremony
12 you used for Gail Armstrong?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. Do you remember marrying her?
15 A. No, I don't. This is ?? it looks like
16 it's ?? this looks like it's out in the gardens of
17 the Fiefield.
18 MR. DANDAR: Could you spell Fiefield
19 for ??
20 THE WITNESS: F?i?e?f?i?e?l?d.
21 Q. And you can't see it ?? you can put that
22 down.
23 A. And I've got a beard in this one, so it's
24 obviously before the other one.
25 Q. That's an earlier picture, that's an
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1 earlier one than the first wedding?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. WEINBERG: And what's that number,
4 Ken?
5 MR. DANDAR: 22.
6 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 23 was marked for
7 identification.)
8 Q. Okay. Let me show you what's 23 and this
9 is the same wedding, obviously, and you see your
10 minister's collar there, is that right?
11 A. Yeah, and that polyester suit, so Southern
12 California.
13 Q. And do you remember when that was?
14 A. No. I just ?? I just don't have a fix on
15 this. I can't remember when I shaved off my beard.
16 Q. What's the number on that one?
17 A. 23.
18 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 24 was marked for
19 identification.)
20 Q. Let me show you 24 and ask you if this is
21 the marriage certificate that you executed on
22 July 21st, 1979, for the marriage of William
23 Charles Armstrong and Gail Norris Moxley.
24 A. Moxley.
25 Q. That's what I said.
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1 A. Oh, I thought you said Moxon.
2 Q. No. Is that it?
3 A. Yeah, looks like it.
4 MR. DANDAR: What number are you holding
5 now?
6 THE WITNESS: 24.
7 A. God, I haven't seen a picture of me with
8 a beard in a long time.
9 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 25 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 Q. Let me show you 25, same wedding but
12 another picture of the book. I just want to make
13 sure this is the same book. In fact, you can see
14 the side of the book in the picture I'm about to
15 show you which says Background and Ceremonies, and
16 somebody is writing something. Do you know what
17 that is? Can you identify that as yourself in this
18 same wedding?
19 A. Yes, that is me. That's probably ??
20 Q. That is the book, right? You can see the
21 writing on the side.
22 A. It could be.
23 Q. Could be?
24 A. It could be. That's probably one of the
25 witnesses because the certificate required
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1 witnesses signing it, the one that they would file.
2 Q. Oh, Ellen Moxley, I'm sorry. It's Ellen
3 Moxley.
4 MR. DANDAR: Let me see that.
5 THE WITNESS: Which part?
6 MR. DANDAR: Let me see those pictures.
7 This is all the same ceremony.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, there's three ??
9 MR. WEINBERG: I just told you there has
10 been two ceremonies so far and I'm about to
11 show him a third.
12 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay.
13 MR. WEINBERG: What's the last number?
14 MR. DANDAR: 25.
15 MR. WEINBERG: The marriage certificate.
16 MR. DANDAR: 25.
17 MR. WEINBERG: So this is 26 now?
18 MR. DANDAR: Uh?huh.
19 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 26 was marked for
20 identification.)
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q. Now, this is yet another wedding that you
23 performed. Is that correct, sir, right?
24 A. It appears to be.
25 Q. The book is in your hand, isn't it?
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1 A. I don't know that that's the book. I
2 don't remember the people on this one.
3 Q. But you're in the same configuration,
4 isn't it? Isn't that the Wilhere wedding,
5 W?i?l?h?e?r?e? Do you remember him?
6 A. Could be. It kind of looks like Hugh,
7 Hugh's hairdo and he used to have this Afro.
8 Q. Do you remember marrying them?
9 A. Yeah, I guess maybe I do. It looks like
10 Greg, his brother, on the right.
11 Q. And you didn't have your collar on there,
12 did you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So you weren't trying to fool anybody in
15 this one, were you?
16 A. Well, I sort of resent your
17 characterization of it. I just wasn't wearing a
18 collar. There was times when we, you know ??
19 Q. But the point is you didn't ?? no one
20 required you to wear a collar ??
21 A. At times.
22 Q. ?? at any of the weddings because you
23 didn't wear one here, did you?
24 A. Well, see, Hugh was a member of Department
25 20, so you didn't have to do that when you're
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1 internal to the ?? internal.
2 Q. All right. Fine. Now ??
3 A. At least I didn't have my polyester suit
4 on.
5 Q. Now, you testified in your direct
6 testimony that ?? on page 29 of your direct
7 testimony, the following, and let me show it to
8 you. Page 29, lines 21 to 25, the question is:
9 And did you put on a minister's collar to give this
10 lecture?
11 And the lecture you're talking about is at
12 Davis, do you remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the answer is: No, there was no
15 minister's collar. I never saw a minister's collar
16 there in my two and a half years at Davis.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the fact of the matter is, sir, you
20 did wear a minister's collar at Davis, didn't you?
21 A. Not when I was doing those lectures as you
22 asked me, no.
23 Q. Oh, wait a minute. Let's just go over
24 this again. What you said here in your answer:
25 No, there is no ?? there was no minister's collar.
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1 I never saw a minister's collar there in my two and
2 a half years at Davis.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Right. So what you're saying is that you
5 never saw anyone with a minister's collar in the
6 mission of Scientology at Davis in your two and a
7 half years there?
8 A. No. I wore one a couple of times off
9 premises of Davis. I never wore one inside and
10 nobody else ever wore one inside.
11 Q. All right. So that when Mr. Dandar ??
12 well, you understood that what Mr. Dandar was doing
13 here was trying to suggest that in 1970 there was
14 no suggestion of religion in Scientology. You
15 understood that by the question you were asked,
16 didn't you?
17 A. Not really. I was thinking of that. I
18 just responded to the question.
19 Q. No? And so when you responded and said I
20 never saw a minister's collar in my two and a half
21 years at Davis, you thought that that was an honest
22 answer?
23 A. Yes. Nobody else wore a collar at Davis.
24 I wore a collar a few times outside of the mission
25 or the franchise, or Davis, or whatever we call it,
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1 but there was nothing on the premises. In fact,
2 Martin Samuels didn't want them on the premises.
3 Q. Now, you were ?? you became a minister
4 when?
5 A. '71.
6 Q. And you were already away from Davis in
7 1971, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But you still wore a minister's collar at
10 Davis while you were there off premises?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the reason you did that was?
13 A. We needed to ?? it was some ?? for PR
14 protection, we had a flap and I had to ?? I was
15 advised to get a collar in order to take on the
16 mantle of religion. I said I'm not a minister.
17 They said it doesn't matter. And this involved
18 some talks that I was giving at a prison and we had
19 gotten some flaps on this and the advice was wear a
20 collar.
21 Q. And when were these talks?
22 A. 1970.
23 Q. When in 1970?
24 A. I don't remember but a good portion of
25 1970.
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1 Q. You mean throughout 1970?
2 A. Scattered.
3 Q. But I thought you had said that the
4 mission wasn't a church?
5 A. No. It's just ?? the franchise was just
6 its own level. It's the first ?? it's not the
7 first level. It's not a church. It cannot put out
8 in front that it is a Church of Scientology and
9 they still can't. They have to be ??
10 Q. They're a mission of Scientology?
11 A. Well, now they call themselves missions.
12 They were originally called franchises.
13 Q. Now, how many times did you go to the
14 prison with the religious garb in 1970?
15 A. Oh, maybe six or eight times until the
16 flap cooled off and I could go back to civvies.
17 Q. So that would be throughout the year
18 then?
19 A. That seems about right, because for the
20 longest ?? the long while that I was doing it, I
21 just went in just, you know, open sport shirt and
22 ?? I don't even know if I even wore a tie. Maybe I
23 wore a tie. And then when it became a flap, then
24 we did that, and then when it cooled off, then I
25 stopped wearing the collar again. It seems like
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1 six, eight, ten times.
2 Q. And were there other occasions when you
3 were at Davis that you wore the collar other than
4 to the prison?
5 A. Not that I recall.
6 Q. Now, the truth of the matter is you were
7 ordained as a minister in February 1970, weren't
8 you?
9 A. Well, that would surprise me because my
10 recall was that I did it in the San Francisco org,
11 is where I did my training, and I had never even
12 stepped into the San Francisco organization until I
13 left Davis, when I was being recruited into the
14 Guardian's Office in very early ??
15 Q. My question is very simple. Okay? You
16 were ordained as a Scientology minister in February
17 1970 before you ever went to any of these prisons
18 in a minister's garb, weren't you?
19 A. Not to my recall.
20 Q. Well, let me show you what we'll mark as
21 the next exhibit.
22 MR. DANDAR: It's 27.
23 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 27 was marked for
24 identification.)
25 Q. Let me show you what I've marked as
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1 Exhibit 27 and ask you if you recognize that to be
2 the ?? your certificate recognizing your ordination
3 as a minister of the Church of Scientology on
4 February 11th, 1970?
5 A. That's what it says. It has ?? the
6 place ?? the thing that would settle it is if you
7 have my check sheet, because Margie was with the
8 San Francisco organization and I had never been to
9 San Francisco. I had never even walked in the door
10 of the organization until the first time I was
11 being recruited for Department 20.
12 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Moxon. Do
13 you want to comment to me to something.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I move to strike that.
15 A. He's commenting, saying things to me.
16 Q. He did not.
17 A. He did too.
18 Q. No, he didn't.
19 A. He said right, right.
20 Q. No, he didn't. I'm sitting right by him.
21 A. Okay. I just wanted to know if he had
22 something to say.
23 MR. DANDAR: He's moving his lips at
24 Mr. Young. He's trying to speak.
25 MR. WEINBERG: No, he's not. He's not,
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1 Ken. Okay?
2 MR. MOXON: I'm just breathing.
3 MR. WEINBERG: He's not.
4 A. All I can give you, sir, is exactly where
5 I did the course.
6 Q. Well, apparently you were wrong when you
7 testified a few minutes ago under oath that in 1970
8 you weren't a minister and you were wearing the
9 garb for some sort of show at a prison, you were
10 wrong, right?
11 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Objection;
12 argumentative.
13 Q. You were wrong, weren't you?
14 A. No, I wasn't wrong. I am contesting this
15 document and I ?? it's not a matter of memory. I
16 could be wrong but I'm saying to you I recall
17 succinctly I had never stepped foot into the San
18 Francisco organization where I did my course until
19 I was being recruited out of Davis. So I don't see
20 how I could have done this in February of '70 when
21 the ??
22 Q. Margie did sign off on your certificate as
23 a minister of the church, right?
24 A. Yeah, and ??
25 Q. That's your recollection.
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1 A. I'm trying to remember her last name and I
2 don't know if anybody else can read it. Margie ??
3 was it Margie Venere? Oh, no, not Margie Venere.
4 Her husband went to jail.
5 Q. Let me show you ??
6 MR. TITUS: Move to strike the last
7 comment by the witness, unresponsive to any
8 question.
9 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 28 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 Q. Let me show you what we'll have the
12 reporter mark as the next exhibit, which is 28?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Is that right?
14 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Let me ask you a
15 question. Do you have the original of
16 Exhibit 27?
17 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sure he's got the
18 original, or had the original. How would I
19 have the original?
20 MR. DANDAR: Since you're the Church of
21 Scientology.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know. I've got my
23 original diploma from Princeton. I've got my
24 original diploma from high school. I've got
25 my original diploma from law school. The law
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1 school doesn't have it, the high school
2 doesn't have it and the college doesn't have
3 it.
4 MR. DANDAR: Then I'm surprised that
5 Scientology has a copy of it. So where is the
6 original?
7 MR. WEINBERG: The original is with
8 Mr. Young.
9 MR. DANDAR: But you ?? your law school
10 doesn't have a copy of yours.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I suspect that they have
12 some sort of record that I graduated from
13 there. I have no ??
14 MR. DANDAR: That's different.
15 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not.
16 MR. DANDAR: Oh, never mind. Go ahead.
17 You don't have the original, is that what
18 you're saying?
19 MR. WEINBERG: I have no idea but I
20 seriously suspect that ??
21 A. The dark thing in the corner of
22 Exhibit 27 is a gold leaf seal, which means it is a
23 photocopy of the original.
24 Q. Okay. Great. Now let me show you
25 Exhibit 28. Now, you recognize Exhibit 28, you
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1 recognize yourself in there, right?
2 A. Yeah, I ?? yes, that's me.
3 Q. And you know that this was an article that
4 was published about you, not with regard to some
5 prison, but with regard to the Davis Soroptimists
6 Club wherein you talked concerning drug issues,
7 correct?
8 A. Can I read it before I respond?
9 Q. Sure. Sure.
10 A. Wow.
11 Q. Does that refresh your recollection?
12 A. Sort of.
13 Q. You remember that this was an article
14 published in the Davis Enterprise, which is a
15 newspaper in Davis, California?
16 A. It appears to be.
17 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 29 was marked for
18 identification.)
19 Q. I'll show you ?? I'll mark, just so there
20 is no dispute as to the date ??
21 A. There is no date on this one.
22 Q. There is on what I'm about to show you,
23 which is a microfiche, which is in two parts, where
24 you see that the article appeared. Exhibit 29, we
25 have to do it in two pages, and it's November looks
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1 like 12th or 13th, 1970.
2 MR. DANDAR: Is that 29?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
4 Q. Do you see that, sir, and do you see ??
5 A. I think it says November 13.
6 Q. 1970, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you see at the bottom of that page
9 and then in the second page you can see the fuller
10 shot that this article that is Defendant's 28
11 appears?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. So that that would indicate that
14 the article about you with the photo appeared on or
15 about November 12th or 13th, 1970, in the Davis
16 paper?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you were certainly in the Davis
19 mission at that time, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And this is before you say that you were
22 ordained as a minister except that we've looked at
23 credentials that say you were ordained in February
24 of 1970, right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Now, that is you in your religious garb,
2 is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that's not in a prison, right?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So this was one other situation that you
7 were wearing the garb?
8 A. I guess so.
9 Q. And what the article says is that Reverend
10 Vaughn Young, Deputy Director of Dianetics and
11 Scientology in Davis, addresses Davis Soroptimists
12 Club, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You remember that, right?
15 A. No, I actually don't.
16 Q. And it talks about what you're doing,
17 correct?
18 A. I don't remember myself being a deputy
19 director of Dianetics and Scientology but I guess
20 maybe I do ?? (inaudible) ??
21 Does this mean I'm an executive?
22 Q. I don't know, Mr. Young, but it certainly
23 would indicate that when you were at Davis, unlike
24 what you testified to on ??
25 A. This wasn't at the Davis group.
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1 Q. Hold on.
2 A. It was off of it.
3 Q. ?? on page 29 that you said you never saw
4 a minister's collar there in your two and a half
5 years at Davis. Now, Davis is a city, isn't it?
6 A. No, when we said Davis, we're talking
7 about the Davis organization. That was preceding
8 in the statement when you were talking about being
9 at Davis, the Davis franchise.
10 Q. Okay. So you're satisfied that you told
11 the truth when Mr. Dandar asked you whether you had
12 seen a minister's collar when you were at Davis?
13 A. He was referring to the Davis franchise.
14 I never saw one. I just told you a while ago, even
15 before you showed me the exhibits ??
16 Q. I don't know. I mean do you think that
17 when you went to this meeting or you went to the
18 prison that you left the Davis franchise in
19 religious garb and then drove to the meeting?
20 A. I don't remember. I don't remember even
21 the meeting. I may have gotten dressed at home for
22 all I know. At least we got a year when I had a
23 beard.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I move to strike that
25 remark.
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1 Q. Now, let me ?? your former wife, Stacy
2 Young, was ordained as a minister in the Church of
3 Scientology as well, is that right?
4 A. I think she was.
5 Q. Was that before or after you?
6 A. Before or after me what?
7 Q. Before or after you were ordained?
8 A. I'm sorry. The cameras moved on me and
9 I'm going to sit back down.
10 Q. Before or after you were ordained?
11 A. I think it had to be after.
12 Q. And did she marry people?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. While you were married to her did she
15 marry people?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Did she conduct ceremonies, as far as you
18 know?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Now, is she still an authorized minister
21 of the Church of Scientology?
22 A. We've received no notice of revocation of
23 our certificates.
24 Q. All right. So you consider yourself an
25 authorized minister of the Church of Scientology as
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1 you sit here today?
2 A. I've never received anything in writing ??
3 Q. Just answer my question. Do you consider
4 yourself an authorized minister of the Church of
5 Scientology as you sit here today?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you consider Stacy an authorized
8 minister of the Church of Scientology as you sit
9 here today?
10 A. I don't know if she is one. I assume she
11 is. I don't have any further information.
12 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 30 was marked for
13 identification.)
14 Q. Let me mark as an exhibit, Number 30, a
15 letter that ?? a letter dated December 7, 1999,
16 that Mr. Dandar wrote to me.
17 MR. DANDAR: The date again?
18 MR. WEINBERG: December 7th, 1999.
19 MR. DANDAR: Seems like ages.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Here, I can give you a
21 copy of it.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Now, in the letter Mr. Dandar says that
24 Stacy Brooks ?? now, that's Stacy Young, right,
25 that's the same person?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That Stacy Brooks is, it doesn't say was,
3 is an authorized minister of the Church of
4 Scientology. That's what it says, isn't it?
5 A. That's what the letter says.
6 Q. Now, your position is is that you're
7 authorized because your credentials have never been
8 revoked?
9 A. I was given the credential and it's never
10 been revoked. I don't exercise it or practice but
11 it's never been revoked. It's like my bachelor's
12 degree. I was given a bachelor's degree. Nobody
13 revoked it. I don't exercise it.
14 Q. But you're an authorized minister but at
15 the same time you're testifying that it's not a
16 religion?
17 A. (Witness nodding head.)
18 Q. Okay?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Just so I understand that. So as you sit
21 here today, it's your position that you could, as
22 an authorized minister of the Church of
23 Scientology, perform religious ceremonies, legally
24 perform religious ceremonies, right?
25 A. I assume so.
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1 Q. And it's your position that as an
2 authorized minister of the Church of Scientology,
3 you could legally audit, perform auditing on other
4 Scientologists?
5 A. I suppose so. I don't need a certificate
6 for that.
7 Q. Just anybody can do that, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, as an apostate ?? you know what an
10 apostate is, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It's someone that has, among other things,
13 renounced their religion, typically, right?
14 A. Typically.
15 Q. And oftentimes when one refers to an
16 apostate, they've renounced their religion in
17 somewhat of a public fashion, right.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. In other words, they are doing something
20 or taking actions that are somewhat public in
21 nature in renouncing their former religion?
22 A. That's a very debatable point, you know.
23 There is the Episcopal church and Catholic church
24 with people that are debating reforms and abortion,
25 et cetera. Whether or not they are apostates or
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1 simply critics or simply reformists, it's, you
2 know, it's a debatable point.
3 Q. Well, an apostate would fall under this
4 sort of certainly the category of a critic of one's
5 former religion, right?
6 A. No, I wouldn't think so. There is a lot
7 of religions that allows criticism.
8 Q. Now, you recognize that in Scientology,
9 that an apostate, that becoming an apostate,
10 renouncing Scientology, is certainly a ground for
11 losing your credentials and for exclusion?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you certainly ?? and this was from the
14 tech written by Mr. Hubbard, there is tech that
15 deal with people that would fall into the category
16 of apostates, right?
17 A. There was an HCO policy letter called
18 Suppressive Persons, Fair Game Law, where that was
19 covered.
20 Q. There is also a certificate cancellation
21 policy, right?
22 A. I believe so. I haven't seen ?? looked
23 for it in ages. There is also procedures for
24 cancellation, as well as requiring that it be
25 stated in writing and that the person be notified.
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1 Q. When you left Scientology, in 19 ?? well,
2 you understand that it's a requirement? I mean
3 you're an expert, right? It's a requirement?
4 A. What's a requirement?
5 Q. That when one renounces publicly and
6 starts working against Scientology, it's a
7 requirement that your certificates be canceled
8 under the Scientology tech?
9 A. I didn't see it as a requirement that if I
10 criticize and I try to bring about changes. If you
11 want to stipulate that the organization will expel
12 anybody who criticizes, then I'll agree to that.
13 Q. Well, you understand that the Catholic
14 church, in its hierarchical structure and its
15 canons, have similar canons with regard to people
16 that have become apostates and get excommunicated,
17 you understand that, don't you?
18 A. I don't understand the procedures of the
19 Catholic church.
20 Q. Well, you understand ?? I mean you've
21 heard of, because we all have, excommunication,
22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you know that there is a very
25 formalized procedure that the Catholics have with
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1 regard to excommunicating people, including
2 apostates?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So you're not suggesting that because
5 Scientology has a policy similar to the Catholics
6 with regard to whatever you want to call it,
7 excommunication or exclusion, that there's ?? that,
8 you know, that there is something unusual about
9 that, do you?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Well, you understand that many religions
12 have excommunication policies with regard to
13 apostates, you know that, don't you?
14 A. Well, see, I can't follow and agree to
15 this because the parallel is not religion. The
16 parallel is political, because you were telling me
17 before, you even asked me, well, a person can
18 disagree in Scientology, and I said no, and that's
19 the difference between this and any other form of
20 belief. It is a monolithic system and there is no
21 disagreement allowed and that can be grounds for a
22 person being thrown out.
23 Q. Just like the Catholic canon law, right?
24 A. I don't know Catholic canon law, sir.
25 Q. And the reason you don't know it is
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1 because you're not an expert on religion, correct?
2 A. I'm not an expert on the Catholic church.
3 Q. You're not an expert on any other
4 religion, are you?
5 A. If you want to argue with me, then you can
6 argue with the court.
7 Q. Well, are you ?? do you profess to be an
8 expert on Buddhism?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you profess to be an expert on
11 Hinduism?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you profess to be an expert on the
14 Muslim faith?
15 A. No.
16 MR. DANDAR: We've gone through this
17 already.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me?
19 MR. DANDAR: We've gone through this
20 already.
21 MR. WEINBERG: No, we haven't.
22 Q. Do you profess to be an expert on
23 Catholicism?
24 A. No.
25 Q. On Unitarianism?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. On the Congregational faith?
3 A. No.
4 Q. On the new Christian religious movements?
5 A. No.
6 Q. On the Christian ?? on the new Christian
7 Science faith?
8 A. No.
9 Q. On Mormonism?
10 A. No.
11 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a break.
12 Q. On Taoism?
13 A. No.
14 MR. DANDAR: All right. Thank you.
15 MR. WEINBERG: I've got one more on the
16 record. I've got to do this.
17 THE WITNESS: He took the break.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Whatever. All right.
19 (Recess.)
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q. Just to close the loop and make sure I
22 didn't exclude any major areas, you are also,
23 obviously, not an expert in Judaism, is that right?
24 A. No, I'm not.
25 Q. Now, it was your statement, I believe, or
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1 testimony in your direct that amongst the trappings
2 that were introduced you say for show in the 1970
3 time frame was the Scientology cross, is that
4 right?
5 A. No. I didn't put it in that way. It
6 wasn't created. It made its ?? we made it as a ??
7 we brought it into play. It was created before
8 that.
9 Q. Right. The Scientology cross was created
10 in 1955, wasn't it?
11 A. I don't know when it was.
12 Q. It was created at or about the time that
13 the religion was founded, wasn't it?
14 A. I don't know when the cross was ??
15 Q. Well, I mean the cross, for example, is on
16 the ?? is on the ceremonial book, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you know that the cross dates back
19 long before 1970, doesn't it?
20 A. I don't know what it dates back to, sir.
21 Q. You're the expert.
22 A. That doesn't mean I need to know every
23 date.
24 Q. Oh, but you ??
25 A. I know how to find the information. I
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1 know how to look it up.
2 Q. You came into this courtroom and you
3 suggested somehow that by using a cross in the '70s
4 that there was some fraud going on, right, that's
5 what you suggested?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Right. And you suggested that somehow by
8 people like you, who were ordained as ministers
9 wearing a religious garb, that there was some fraud
10 going on, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you suggested that somehow by
13 referring to yourself as a religion or a church
14 that there was some fraud going on, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And we've established today that in the
17 mid 19 ?? that in the lectures as early as '54 and
18 '55, Mr. Hubbard was speaking about Scientology as
19 a religion, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And we've established that the religious
22 ceremonies go back to the 1950s, as long back as
23 the 1950s, don't they?
24 A. No, I don't know that.
25 Q. The religious garb goes back to the 1950s,
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1 doesn't it?
2 A. No, it doesn't.
3 Q. There were ministers in the 1950s, I mean
4 at one of the lectures he talked about, I think it
5 was The Man of Hope, he talked about the audience
6 being mostly ministers, do you remember that?
7 A. I remember that.
8 Q. All right. So there were ministers that
9 were ordained in Scientology in the 1950s?
10 A. I don't know what that meant at that time.
11 Q. Well, you're the expert.
12 A. I did not know. I know how to find out.
13 An expert can find out very easily and I would be
14 able to find out in a very short ??
15 Q. But you just haven't found that out, have
16 you?
17 A. I haven't been asked the question.
18 Q. Now ?? and then you suggested that somehow
19 using the cross was part of this effort to make
20 Scientology something that it wasn't, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But the truth of the matter, that dates
23 back long before 1970, doesn't it?
24 A. As I said, I don't know when the cross was
25 created.
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1 Q. Well, how would you determine when the
2 cross was created? What would you do as an expert
3 to determine when the cross was created?
4 A. Well, you can ?? one of the first places
5 to go would be a technical dictionary and look it
6 up, or what Minister Moxon is holding in his hand,
7 you can see it, What is Scientology, and go to the
8 original ?? you've got the ?? you've got a book
9 there.
10 Q. Yeah, What is Scientology.
11 A. And then, at that point, I would go to
12 original material since I testified in my
13 deposition that later material has been changed to
14 reflect religious image.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. So I'd have to go back to see exactly when
17 it was created.
18 Q. Well, let's refer to page ?? oh, you know
19 what What is Scientology, right, you know what that
20 is?
21 A. The book? I've seen it.
22 Q. Have you read it?
23 A. I have looked at it and used it as a
24 reference book but I don't think anybody has sat
25 down and read that thing. I've used it as needed.
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1 Q. Well, actually, I've read it.
2 A. Well, wonderful.
3 Q. But you're the expert, supposedly, right,
4 in Scientology?
5 A. I have been called as one.
6 Q. All right. But the truth of the matter is
7 you're not an expert in the tech of Scientology,
8 are you?
9 A. I have never claimed to be an expert ??
10 Q. Just answer my question. You're not an
11 expert in Scientology tech or technology, are you?
12 A. I have some expertise.
13 Q. We can pull out your testimony but my
14 recollection is on several occasions, including
15 when I took your deposition, you acknowledged that
16 you were not an expert in the technology of
17 Scientology, correct?
18 A. No, just in Scientology as an entire
19 subject.
20 Q. Right. You just agreed with what I said,
21 you're not an ?? that you testified in your
22 deposition that you weren't an expert in
23 technology, right?
24 A. That's fine, yeah.
25 Q. And in fact, when you were interviewed by
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1 the police officers in 1977, when they flew out to
2 Seattle all the way from Clearwater, you told them
3 that I'm not the expert in tech, you need to talk
4 to my wife, Stacy, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, when one says tech, one is talking
7 about some of the fundamental beliefs of
8 Scientology that are contained in the Red Volumes,
9 right?
10 A. Fundamental practices. See, I can't
11 characterize them as beliefs because Hubbard is
12 very strong in saying this is not a matter of
13 faith, this is not a matter of belief, this is
14 scientific, empirical, testable knowledge that is
15 on the level of science, and to say a person just
16 believes in the tech, no. You're supposed to know
17 the tech, duplicate the tech exactly. Belief and
18 faith ?? in fact, the word faith is just not
19 around.
20 Q. And the tech is how one achieves the goals
21 of Scientology?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Those things that we reviewed, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Spiritual freedom and awareness and all
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1 those things, correct?
2 A. It's part of the advertisement, yes.
3 Q. That's part of what the people that we
4 talked about that believe in Scientology believe
5 in, right?
6 A. Some of those who believe in that believe
7 in that, yes.
8 Q. Right. And that they apply the tech to
9 achieve the goals, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Just like one reads the Bible to achieve
12 the goals of Christianity?
13 A. No, no, no.
14 Q. No, not at all like that, is it?
15 A. No, because I told you, it's a
16 psychotherapy and has been that from day one, and
17 that's why it was called the modern science of
18 mental health.
19 Q. And that's, of course, not what you
20 believed when you were a Scientologist, is it?
21 A. That's what Hubbard wrote. He said that
22 time and again. It's his words.
23 Q. All right. Now, let's go to page 909 of
24 the What is Scientology, which is one of the most
25 comprehensive documents written by Scientology as
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1 to Scientology, isn't it? I'll withdraw the
2 question.
3 This is a comprehensive reference book
4 that people like me who are not Scientologists can
5 refer to to learn about Scientology, isn't it?
6 A. That is correct. It's primarily intended
7 for external consumption.
8 Q. Now, on page 909 it refers to ?? do you
9 remember at the end of this book that there is like
10 a history of Scientology by year, some of the
11 highlights, do you remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in the 1955 year there are things like
14 the various lectures that we've talked about,
15 Phoenix, you know, there is letters ?? lectures in
16 Phoenix and things like that, and then there is a
17 reference to the Scientology cross, do you see
18 that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you recognize the cross?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That's the same cross on your book, right,
23 on the book that we referred to?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The wedding ceremony book. And do you see
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1 that what you reviewed for me here ??
2 A. I just wanted to see what year this book
3 was published. It was published looks like a year
4 and a half ago.
5 Q. Fine. Now, it says: The Scientology
6 cross, the Scientology sun burst cross, the basic
7 design of which was found by L. Ron Hubbard in an
8 ancient Spanish mission in Arizona, is the official
9 insignia for Scientology ministers. The cross is
10 three inches high and two inches wide and made of
11 sterling silver and hangs on a fine silver chain.
12 It is worn by both men and women. Each of the
13 eight points of the cross represents one of the
14 eight dynamics. Large Scientology crosses of wood
15 and other materials are displayed in Scientology
16 churches. Very small versions are also worn as
17 pins.
18 Now, you, from time to time, wore a
19 Scientology cross, didn't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you do ?? does this refresh your
22 recollection that the cross dated back to 1955?
23 A. No.
24 Q. But you don't deny that it dates back to
25 1955, right?
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1 A. No, and that's also a very different
2 description from what it originally was. That ??
3 the text has been changed. It was originally
4 described as, what was it, the flowering cross.
5 Q. And where was that, Mr. Expert, that it
6 was originally described?
7 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Move to strike.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I move to strike his
9 whole answer which wasn't responsive to a
10 question.
11 Q. But where was this description, where
12 was ??
13 MR. DANDAR: Do not talk to him in that
14 manner.
15 MR. WEINBERG: You've already spoken.
16 Q. Where was this description that you ??
17 MR. WEINBERG: Don't talk to me in that
18 manner.
19 MR. DANDAR: Do not talk to him in that
20 manner.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Just make an objection.
22 Don't ?? in what manner?
23 MR. DANDAR: He will not respond to your
24 questions if you talk to him like that.
25 MR. WEINBERG: How did I talk to him?
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1 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Expert.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that's what he
3 represents himself to be.
4 MR. DANDAR: You know that's totally
5 improper.
6 MR. WEINBERG: It wasn't meant to be.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q. Now, sir, who represents himself as an
9 expert, can you tell me where you read about the
10 flowering cross?
11 A. I believe that was probably the tech
12 dictionary and my guess is there is a volume of
13 that floating around in this room.
14 Q. Dating back to when? When was it first
15 described in the tech dictionary?
16 A. I don't recall the year of that. I don't
17 need to. I know how to find it though. But as I
18 said, the description was very different and that's
19 the first time I've ever seen a reference to him
20 finding it in Arizona.
21 Q. So you didn't ?? you hadn't heard that
22 before?
23 A. No. And that book was created just looks
24 like about a year ago and it was clearly created
25 for PR purposes.
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1 Q. Clearly?
2 A. Clearly.
3 Q. Of course, you haven't been at the church
4 since 1989, right, right, am I correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. And you weren't part of any company or
7 effort to publish this book, were you?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. Oh, so you published this book?
10 A. No. Would you like me to explain?
11 Q. No.
12 A. That book was published ??
13 Q. I move to strike. I just said no.
14 MR. DANDAR: He doesn't want to know the
15 truth.
16 A. You don't want to know the answer.
17 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I move ?? now,
18 that is improper and I move to strike that
19 completely inappropriate comment. All right.
20 But you know what, Mr. Dandar? I have a right
21 to ask the questions that I want to ask and
22 I'm entitled to get the answers that I want,
23 and Mr. Vaughn Young made a big point about
24 how this book he claims was published a year
25 and a half ago, and I just wanted to
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1 establish ??
2 A. That edition, sir ??
3 Q. Could I finish? I just wanted to
4 establish that you were not here when this edition
5 was published, right?
6 A. That edition, no.
7 Q. And you didn't have anything to do with
8 the publishing of this edition?
9 A. That edition, no.
10 MR. DANDAR: We'll take it up later.
11 A. It's getting late in the day.
12 Q. Now, the tech of Scientology is what the
13 Scientology beliefs are all about, isn't it, that's
14 what the tech of Scientology is?
15 A. Well, except for on the question of
16 beliefs, as I said, I will give you this much, that
17 it is the core of the Scientology system.
18 Q. It includes both the core beliefs and
19 practices of auditing and training, doesn't it?
20 A. Mr. Hubbard doesn't allow beliefs. He
21 insists upon knowledge. That's what Scientology is
22 defined as, knowing how to know, not knowing how to
23 believe.
24 Q. It includes, the tech includes both
25 auditing, which is a fundamental religious practice
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1 in Scientology, correct?
2 A. No.
3 Q. It's not a practice in Scientology?
4 A. It is a practice.
5 Q. Oh, but you have a problem with calling it
6 a religious practice, right?
7 A. I'm not going to concede that it is a
8 religious practice.
9 Q. Right. Even though the IRS, the State
10 Department, the Labor Department, and every court
11 that has considered the issue in the United States
12 has decided that Scientology is a religion,
13 correct?
14 MR. DANDAR: Objection; improper form.
15 Q. Correct? Correct?
16 A. My testimony is what it is, sir.
17 Q. Well, do you acknowledge that every court
18 that has considered whether Scientology is a
19 religion in this country has concluded that it was
20 and is?
21 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
22 A. I do not know what courts have ruled
23 that ?? I don't believe any ?? I don't believe the
24 religiosity of Scientology has been tested and
25 ruled upon in a court.
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1 Q. Well, you're the expert, right?
2 A. On Scientology as an activity, not on the
3 court system. I know that the Supreme Court, when
4 they considered the lower court decision, it stood
5 that Scientology was not that, it was a profit
6 making operation.
7 Q. Now, you have read, I assume, since you're
8 the expert, the Eleventh Circuit decision that was
9 issued in the '90s with regard to the City of
10 Clearwater and Scientology?
11 MR. DANDAR: Object. It calls for a legal
12 opinion. He's not here to give legal
13 opinions.
14 Q. You read that?
15 A. I looked at ??
16 MR. WEINBERG: Actually, I'm ?? this is
17 absolutely proper cross?examination of
18 somebody that purports themselves to be an
19 expert with regard to whether or not
20 Scientology is a religion.
21 Q. You're familiar with the Eleventh Circuit
22 opinion?
23 A. I saw it and I read it at one time.
24 Q. And you read it, right?
25 A. I read it at one time.
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1 Q. And you recall that the Eleventh Circuit
2 made it quite clear that there was no issue as to
3 whether or not Scientology was a religion, you
4 remember that, don't you?
5 A. It may have said so. I don't recall the
6 exact wording.
7 MR. DANDAR: Objection.
8 A. I'm not going to contest it. That wasn't
9 my point to contest or interpret legal rulings.
10 Q. You just ignore them?
11 A. No. I have my own ??
12 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative.
13 A. I have my own testimony.
14 Q. Oh, by the way, what is this Supreme
15 Court decision?
16 A. No, the Supreme Court let stand the lower
17 court decision which was the ?? what was it? This
18 was the CST seeking tax exemption, the one that
19 they fought for a number of years, that was the
20 standing decision until the IRS overthrew it with
21 their granting of the exemption.
22 Q. So you don't have a cite for that, I take
23 it?
24 A. No, but we can find one and give it to you
25 tomorrow.
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1 Q. Now, you have read what the scholars have
2 said, the religious scholars have said about
3 Scientology and religion, you have read that?
4 A. I testified earlier. We went over the
5 subject as to what I read.
6 Q. Let me show you copies of this.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Let me mark as the next
8 exhibit ?? and what is that number, 31?
9 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 31 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 Q. Let me show you what's marked as
12 Exhibit 31, which is entitled Scientology by Bryan
13 Ronald Wilson, and ask you to take a look at this.
14 This is the Bryan Ronald Wilson which is one of the
15 scholars that you said you've read, right?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No? I thought you said you read
18 Mr. Wilson.
19 A. No, I never said that.
20 Q. Do you know ?? have you heard of
21 Mr. Wilson?
22 A. I've heard the name.
23 Q. All right. I mean do you know that he is
24 one of the leading authorities on religious
25 philosophy in the world?
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1 A. No, I don't know his credentials.
2 Q. Have you read any of his works?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you read this work?
5 A. No. Do you want me to read it? I'll be
6 happy to sit down and ??
7 Q. I just want you to take a look at it.
8 MR. DANDAR: Are you ??
9 A. Sir, this is close to 100 pages. I'm
10 more than willing to sit here on your time for the
11 next hour and go through ??
12 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Listen. I object.
13 He's not going to answer any questions. He
14 does not recognize this author as
15 authoritative. You cannot ask him any
16 questions about it.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Of course I can. You
18 know, Ken, I can ask him the questions. Okay?
19 MR. DANDAR: It's not authoritative.
20 You've got a manuscript here that's not even
21 published.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Just make your objection.
23 MR. DANDAR: It's also hearsay. It has
24 not been authenticated.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Just make your objection
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1 and we'll go on. Unfortunately, we're not in
2 court right now. You're the one that insisted
3 on going forward. We don't have a judge here
4 to rule and I'm going to test him on his
5 purported expertise and I have a right to do
6 that with scholarly works whether he's read
7 them or not.
8 MR. DANDAR: We stipulate that I have a
9 running objection to any questions concerning
10 this exhibit in front of him.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Yes.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 A. It's going to take a while to read 100
14 pages.
15 Q. No, no, no, no. I'm just asking you, if
16 you look at page 8 ??
17 A. You're going to ask me to respond to just
18 portions without reading the text? I can't do
19 that, sir.
20 Q. I'm asking you to look at page 8.
21 A. Okay.
22 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy for me?
23 MR. WEINBERG: No.
24 A. Page 8, The Indicia of Religion.
25 Q. Let's go to the resumT at the beginning.
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1 Okay?
2 A. What page?
3 Q. The first page after the cover page.
4 You're familiar with the University of Oxford,
5 right?
6 A. I've heard of it.
7 Q. It's in England, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that this man, Bryan Ronald Wilson,
10 was a reader emeritus in sociology in the
11 University of Oxford, I mean you recognize that
12 that is a position, a scholarly position that one
13 would have at a university, right?
14 A. Sir, I'll stipulate to what this thing
15 says. I do not know Mr. Wilson, nor do I know this
16 is accurate, nor do I know that this is anybody's
17 conjuring this, or imagination, or if it really
18 exists, if this page says what it says. I cannot
19 testify to the validity of any of the titles or the
20 truthfulness of this or the accuracy of it or if
21 this person even has these degrees.
22 Q. All right. So in reaching your opinions
23 with regard to Scientology, you did not review any
24 of Bryan Wilson's works where he analyzed
25 Scientology as a religion, you didn't read anything
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1 of that, right?
2 A. I did not read anything by Mr. Wilson.
3 Q. Fine. You know Frank Flinn, don't you,
4 are you familiar with his work?
5 A. Yes, actually.
6 Q. Okay. And who is Mr. Frank Flinn?
7 A. It goes back a few years. I don't ?? you
8 know, I remember reading something by him. I
9 forgot all about it. It's been quite a while.
10 Q. Well, I mean do you recall that he served
11 as an adjunct professor in religious studies at the
12 Washington University in St. Louis?
13 A. I never spoke with him, like the other
14 gentleman, I don't know anything about his
15 credentials, nor ??
16 Q. But you read some of his works on
17 religious study?
18 A. I read something by him some years ago and
19 I don't remember what it is and that's how I know
20 the name.
21 Q. Well, did you read his analysis of
22 Scientology as a religion?
23 A. I don't remember what I read.
24 Q. Well, do you remember that he did a
25 detailed analysis of Scientology as a religion?
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1 A. I don't remember what I read.
2 Q. Do you have any recollection of him
3 concluding as an expert that Scientology is a
4 religion as he compares it to, you know, a test of
5 religiosity?
6 A. No.
7 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 32 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 Q. Let me show you what's marked as 32 and
10 ask you if you have ever studied that work?
11 A. This is a declaration.
12 Q. Well, it was done while I believe you were
13 in the Church of Scientology.
14 MR. DANDAR: It's a declaration though,
15 correct?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Just stop.
17 A. It's dated 22 September 1994.
18 Q. Oh, so you were gone by this time, right?
19 You were gone by 1994, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And so you ?? since you left the church in
22 1989, you don't remember studying any of
23 Mr. Flinn's writings, including this declaration,
24 is that right?
25 A. Not this, no. Mr. Flinn is ?? I never saw
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1 this declaration. He's clearly an expert that was
2 paid just the way I'm paid to study. So this is
3 one of their paid experts.
4 Q. All right. So he's a paid expert that
5 just happens to have a Ph.D. and has been writing
6 on religion for a career, right?
7 A. I don't know what his credentials are.
8 Q. But before you came in to testify as a
9 so?called expert, you didn't study what the
10 scholars had written about Scientology?
11 A. The point ??
12 Q. Yes or no, did you or did you not?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, you've heard of Professor Lonnie
15 Kliever, is that right?
16 A. I've heard the name.
17 Q. And have you read any of his work?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know who Lonnie Kliever is?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know that he has a doctor of
22 philosophy in religion and philosophy from Duke
23 University in 1963?
24 A. It sort of follows if I don't know who he
25 is, that I wouldn't know anything about
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1 credentials, so you can just ??
2 Q. And so you haven't read ?? I don't find
3 all this that funny, to tell you the truth,
4 Mr. Young, because you're the one that came in
5 purporting to be an expert and what I'm doing, what
6 I'm trying to do in a systematic fashion is find
7 out what you know, if anything, about the field of
8 religion. Okay? That's what I'm trying to find
9 out.
10 A. Well, I'm not an expert on religion. If
11 you want to show me Scientology materials, I can
12 then interpret them for you as the declaration that
13 I present did in the Wollersheim case. I used
14 Scientology materials, not the experts. I used
15 Mr. Hubbard.
16 Q. Unfortunately, you just said you're not an
17 expert on the technology of Scientology.
18 A. I did not present any technological
19 materials. I presented Hubbard's materials,
20 Scientology materials, Sea Org materials.
21 Q. Now, let me show you ??
22 A. These gentlemen ?? these gentlemen are not
23 presenting any of the Scientology materials.
24 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 33 was marked for
25 identification.)
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1 Q. Let me show you what we'll mark as
2 Exhibit 33, which is a report of Lonnie Kliever,
3 Department of Religious Studies, Southern
4 Methodist, dated September 26, 1994, in which he
5 analyzes Scientology as a religious organization.
6 Have you seen that and studied that?
7 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
8 A. I've already responded.
9 Q. Is the answer no?
10 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
11 Q. Is the answer no?
12 A. I've already responded, sir. I don't
13 know who he is, so ??
14 Q. Well, I hadn't shown you the document.
15 A. I don't even know who he is.
16 Q. I thought you said you did know who he
17 was.
18 A. I know the name but I've not read it nor
19 do I know his credentials, so we'll just throw it
20 on the stack with the rest of them, with all the
21 nonScientologists.
22 Q. Oh, you think Mr. Kliever is a
23 Scientologist?
24 A. No, I don't think he is a Scientologist.
25 Q. Do you think Mr. Wilson is a
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1 Scientologist?
2 A. No, I don't think, or former.
3 Q. Have you heard of RTgis Derucqyebourg,
4 D?e?r?i?c?q?u?e?b?o?u?r?g, professor, sociology of
5 religion, University of Lille, L?i?l?l?e, Lille,
6 France?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you read any his works?
9 A. No.
10 MR. DANDAR: Could you spell his last name
11 again.
12 MR. WEINBERG: It's on this document.
13 MR. DANDAR: I don't think she got it
14 either.
15 MR. WEINBERG: You didn't?
16 MR. DANDAR: No.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
18 D?e?r?i?c?q?u?e?b?o?u?r?g.
19 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
20 A. Spelled just the way it sounds.
21 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 34 was marked for
22 identification.)
23 Q. We'll mark this as 34 and I take it you
24 didn't review anything written by him prior to your
25 testimony, is that right?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, have you heard of Professor
3 Dobbelare, D?o?b?b?e?l?a?r?e, or Professor VoyT,
4 V?o?y?T, have you heard of either of them?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And have you read any of their works, and
7 in particular, analysis of Scientology as a
8 religion?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you haven't read any of their works
11 comparing Scientology to other religions?
12 A. No.
13 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 35 was marked for
14 identification.)
15 Q. Let me show you what we'll mark as
16 Exhibit 35 and I take it you didn't review this
17 before your testimony, is that right, sir?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. We talked a little bit about apostates and
20 what an apostate was and we talked about somebody
21 that renounced, typically in a public fashion, a
22 religion that they had been associated with, and I
23 think you acknowledged, and if you didn't, I'll ask
24 you now, there have been apostates throughout the
25 history of religion, correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Dating back centuries?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, have you reviewed any work with
5 regard to the analysis by religious scholars
6 concerning the reliability of apostate testimony
7 about new religious movements?
8 A. There was something I saw that Scientology
9 had ?? somebody that they hired to write something
10 that came up in one of the cases.
11 Q. What was that?
12 A. Oh, I saw it a couple of years ago.
13 Q. Did you read it?
14 A. Yeah. I forget who wrote it. I found it
15 amusing.
16 Q. Do you remember that it was Lonnie Kliever
17 that wrote it?
18 A. I don't remember. I just remember that I
19 found it amusing.
20 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 36 was marked for
21 identification.)
22 Q. Well, let me show you what we'll mark as
23 Exhibit ??
24 MR. WEINBERG: What's the next number?
25 THE COURT REPORTER: 36.
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1 Q. ?? 36, which is a paper entitled The
2 Reliability of Apostate Testimony About New
3 Religious Movements by Lonnie Kliever, Ph.D.,
4 Professor of Religious Studies, Southern Methodist
5 University, and ask you if this is what you
6 reviewed?
7 A. It's published by Scientology.
8 Q. Well, but Mr. Kliever is not a
9 Scientologist, is he?
10 A. I don't know. You'd have to ask him.
11 It's published by Scientology.
12 Q. By the way, while you're looking at that,
13 now, if somebody is a Scientologist, then that
14 disqualifies them from testifying about the
15 sincerity of Scientology?
16 A. No more so than an apostate would be
17 disqualified.
18 Q. Well, actually, an apostate, somebody that
19 has renounced their religion, one would wonder,
20 would they not, about the motives of anything that
21 they would say about their former religion,
22 wouldn't they?
23 A. No more than if a former KGB official or
24 former official of the Mafia left and testified
25 about his experiences. Suddenly he doesn't
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1 qualify? Experience is experience, sir. That's
2 all it is. Then you just have to take it into the
3 context of the testimony with documentation by the
4 organization. So I'm not saying ?? the Church of
5 Scientology has insisted that only Scientologists
6 are qualified to testify about the organization and
7 its technology and you go, excuse me?
8 Q. You know that the religious experts that
9 have written on Scientology are not Scientologists,
10 you know that, don't you?
11 A. No, I don't know that. I don't know if
12 these gentlemen are Scientologist are not.
13 Q. Well, you see on page 3 at the bottom,
14 this man who sets forth his CV, which dates back to
15 1963 in the philosophy of religion, says, and I
16 quote at the bottom: The apostate must always be
17 regarded as an individual who is predisposed to
18 render a biased account of the religious beliefs
19 and practices of his or her former religious
20 associations and activities.
21 Now, you agree with that as an expert on
22 religion, don't you?
23 A. I would say it applies to both the
24 adherent and the apostate, both have to be taken
25 with a grain of salt into the context of what they
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1 are saying. Of course it's true. The apostate is
2 predisposed to render a biased opinion just the way
3 somebody that's done OT?VIII is going to render a
4 biased opinion, and that's what the purpose of the
5 courts is, to sort the wheat from the chaff. I
6 don't have any disagreement with that.
7 Q. What if people like Mr. Kliever aren't
8 Scientologists and they Mr. Wilson, Professor
9 Wilson and all these others, what is their bias?
10 A. I'm not saying there is a bias. Then
11 there is also Steve Kent and some others. The
12 point is this is what we're here to sort out. I
13 don't ?? you know, I rely upon documentation and
14 that's what I have submitted to the courts, has
15 been documents. I tried not to rely upon ??
16 Q. Well, if you go to page 7, do you see
17 before page 7 he's talking about ?? he traces
18 apostasy through the ??
19 A. You say before page 7?
20 Q. If you go starting on page 4, he has a
21 section on apostasy in the past and then apostasy
22 in Hellenistic Judaism, and apostasy in the pagan
23 religions, and then apostasy in the Christian
24 church. Do you see all that?
25 A. I see those. Those are subheadings.
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1 Q. Right. And then on page 7 he says
2 apostasy in the present and he talks about the last
3 30 years and the new religions that have popped up
4 all over the ?? particularly in the United States,
5 right?
6 A. Give me a second. I've not read this
7 thing until you ?? I'm just trying to get a sense
8 of it.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Okay. He says new religions have
11 appeared. Okay. Go ahead.
12 Q. All right. And if you go to the second
13 paragraph: But in contrast to the above, the above
14 being the history of apostasy, among those who
15 leave voluntarily are a few defectors who have
16 gained great notoriety by publicly attacking their
17 former religious associations and activities
18 through the press and in the courts. As welcome
19 sources of information for a public both curious
20 and fearful about these unfamiliar new religions,
21 such apostates are often trusted as cause celebres
22 rather than as social outcasts?
23 A. The word was treated, sir.
24 Q. But as we shall ?? excuse me? Treated,
25 that's what I said.
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1 A. You said trusted.
2 Q. But as we shall see below, neither the
3 quietly appreciative former members ?? member, nor
4 the vocally aggrieved apostate from a new religious
5 movement can be taken as an objective or
6 authoritative interpreter of religious movement to
7 which he or she formally belonged.
8 Now, sir, that does apply to this small
9 group of people like you that have left Scientology
10 in the last few years where you have gained great
11 notoriety by publicly attacking Scientology,
12 correct?
13 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
14 Q. Correct?
15 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. Do I have a
16 running objection for all this material?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Yes.
18 Q. Correct?
19 A. No, it doesn't apply. This is his
20 opinion.
21 Q. Now, I'm talking about you and Stacy
22 Brooks and Jesse Prince, the three leading experts
23 in your field, who have left Scientology in the
24 last ten years and you have been in the forefront
25 of a small group of people attacking Scientology
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1 publicly.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. A small group of apostates that has done
6 that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And just like Mr. Kliever said, you
9 shouldn't be trusted because you have a bias and a
10 prejudice against the religion, don't you, sir?
11 A. It sounds like your closing arguments.
12 Q. Sir?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, let's go to page 10. At the top, the
15 sentence starts long?term and heavily involved. Do
16 you see that?
17 A. Where?
18 Q. Fourth line down, long?term and heavily
19 involved.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Long?term and heavily ?? Mr. Kliever
22 writes: Long?term and heavily involved members of
23 new religious movements ?? and you would consider
24 Scientology a new religious movement, right?
25 A. Compared against Christianity and Judaism,
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1 yes.
2 Q. So long?term and heavily involved members
3 of new religious movements who over time become
4 disenchanted with their religion often throw all
5 the blame on their former religious associations
6 and activities. They magnify small flaws into huge
7 evils. They turn personal disappointments
8 into malicious betrayals. They even will tell
9 incredible falsehoods to harm their former
10 religion. Not surprisingly, these apostates often
11 appeal, after the fact, to the same brainwashing
12 scenarios usually invoked to justify forcible
13 disengagement from new religious movements.
14 And that is true that that is exactly what
15 you have done, among others, to tell incredible
16 falsehoods to harm your former religion, sir,
17 correct?
18 A. Totally incorrect.
19 Q. And that wouldn't account, I take it, that
20 bias wouldn't account for testimony like we
21 reviewed earlier in the FACT Net case, where you
22 refused to testify truthfully about your
23 relationship with Mr. Minton?
24 A. I answered the questions specifically as
25 they were asked.
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1 Q. Now ??
2 A. There was no falsehoods in there.
3 Q. The last page, number 12. None
4 whatsoever, there were no falsehoods in that
5 testimony, right?
6 A. When he asked me the question, I told him
7 where I was. He just needed to ask the question.
8 I keep trying to correct you on the right
9 questions. What page?
10 Q. Page 12, to finish, last paragraph: In
11 short, on the face of things, apostates from new
12 religions do not meet the standards of personal
13 objectivity, professional competence, and informed
14 understanding required of expert witnesses.
15 You agree with that, don't you?
16 A. Excuse me for laughing. This is so
17 ridiculously funny. I can see why they published
18 this.
19 Q. Of course, you've never written anything
20 scholarly about religion at all, have you?
21 A. I don't think anything published by
22 Scientology would be considered scholarly. This is
23 something that they hired the guy to do, so I don't
24 consider that scholarly. It's published by
25 Freedom, which is their ?? which is the propaganda
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1 magazine.
2 Q. I see. And so when a person who is a ??
3 who has a master of divinity, who has a doctorate
4 of philosophy and religion, who has held full?time
5 faculty appointments in the department of
6 philosophy at the University of Texas, El Paso in
7 the early '60s, who was in the department of
8 religion at Trinity University from '65 to '69, who
9 was in the department of religious studies at the
10 University of Windsor of Ontario from '69 to '75,
11 who received the rank of full professor and since
12 '73 has held the appointment of full professor in
13 religious studies at Southern Methodist University,
14 who has been in good standing in the America
15 Association of University Professors, Academy of
16 Religion, and various committees, somebody like
17 that, of course, is not qualified to write a
18 scholarly article on religion, is that correct?
19 A. He can write whatever he wants, sir.
20 Q. Now, what, since we got us here, what
21 societies are you a member of, academic societies
22 are you a member of?
23 A. I'm not a member of any academic
24 societies.
25 Q. What religious societies are you a member
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1 of?
2 A. I'm not a member of any religious
3 societies.
4 MR. DANDAR: It's five minutes to 5:00.
5 THE WITNESS: Is it five to 5:00?
6 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Can you hold out for
7 five minutes?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I may ?? I'm just
9 about done.
10 THE WITNESS: We've been through that
11 five?minute trip before.
12 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm pretty tired
13 myself, actually. I've been traveling a lot
14 and I don't feel very good today. Well, this
15 actually would probably be a pretty good place
16 to stop.
17 THE WITNESS: Best news all day.
18 MR. WEINBERG: So 9:30 tomorrow morning.
19 (Recess.)
20 PLEASE REFER to Volume IV for further
21 Trial Testimony.
22 NOTE: The original and one copy of the
23 foregoing Trial Testimony will be held by
24 Mr. Weinberg; copy to Mr. Dandar.
25 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing
SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
525
1 of the Trial Testimony transcript will be handled
2 by the office of Mr. Kennan G. Dandar of the firm
3 Dandar & Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite
4 201, Tampa, Florida.
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SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 526
1 SIGNATURE PAGE
2 Volume III
3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the
4 foregoing Trial Testimony given by me on
5 February 9 & 10, 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the
6 following corrections, if any, should be made in
7 the transcript:
8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR
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18 Subject to the above corrections, if any,
19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing
20 Trial Testimony.
21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this
22 __________ day of ____________________ , 20___.
23
24 ________________________________
25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG
SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
527
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA
4 COUNTY OF POLK
5
6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby
7 certify that the witness named herein personally
8 appeared before me and was previously duly sworn.
9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this
10 12th day of February, 2000.
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14 ________________________________
15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR
16 Notary Public ? State of Florida
17 My Commission Expires: 10?23?03
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SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
528
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA
3 COUNTY OF POLK
4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered
5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter
6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida
7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared
8 before me for the taking of the foregoing Trial
9 Testimony, and that I was authorized to and did
10 stenographically and electronically report the
11 Trial Testimony; and that a review of the
12 transcript was requested; and that the transcript
13 is a true and complete record of my stenographic
14 notes and recordings thereof.
15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an
16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause,
17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party
18 connected with this litigation, nor am I
19 financially interested in the outcome of this
20 action.
21 DATED THIS 12th day of February, 2000, at
22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida.
23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 2?10?00
SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000