VOLUME VII TRIAL
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida corporation, Petitioner, vs. ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL., Respondents.
BEFORE: The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR. PLACE: Pinellas County Judicial Building 545 First Avenue North St. Petersburg, Florida DATE: February 15, 2001 TIME: Commencing at 9:00 A.M. REPORTED BY: JACKIE L. OSTROM Court Reporter --------------------------------------------------- ORDERS TO SHOW CAUSE --------------------------------------------------- Pages 796 - 939 Volume VII ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 35 CLEARWATER, FLORIDA (727) 443-0992 . APPEARANCES The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR. CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE ET AL 911 Chestnut Clearwater, Florida HELENA KOBRIN, ESQUIRE MOXON AND KOBRIN 3055 Whilshire Boulevard, Suite 900 Los Angeles, California 90010 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship Organization JOHN MERRETT, ESQUIRE 2716 Herschel Street Jacksonville, Florida 32205 BRUCE G. HOWIE, ESQUIRE PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE AND WERNER 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida 33707 Attorneys for Robert Minton and Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc. . 798 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and 3 gentlemen. We're back in case 99-7430 CI-08. 4 And our case of the Church of Scientology 5 Flag Service Organization, Inc., Petitioner 6 versus Robert S. Minton, Jr. et al and when 7 we left off last the arguments had been made 8 for judgments of acquittal and those 9 arguments were made at the close of the 10 petitioner or prosecution case, if you want 11 to call it that, and of course the rules that 12 would apply and the law that applies is that 13 of course at that point in time you take a 14 look at the evidence and the testimony that's 15 been presented and consider it in the light 16 most favorable to the petitioner. 17 Now, what I'll do is go down the 18 arguments is they were made and then we will 19 proceed from there. 20 The first considerations, the first 21 arguments that were made were 22 originally -- there had been testimony 23 presented on show causes on behalf of the 24 defendants which were against the Church of 25 Scientology and against, I believe it's . 799 1 Judith Ross, and in those particular motions 2 as to those particular defendants of the 3 judgments acquittal, after considering what 4 was presented and in light of all matters, 5 those judgments of acquittal are granted. 6 Now, going to the other side, we'll 7 start with -- I'll go down particular 8 defendants and the motions that were made. 9 Going to the first amended consolidated 10 order to show cause, paragraph 1A regarding 11 Tory Bezazian picketing in a nondesignated 12 picket area, the judgment for acquittal 13 there denied. 14 As to next, which would be Paragraph 1B 15 of the original order to show cause 16 allegations regarding Tory Bezazian sitting 17 in the Santa Claus chair and walking on the 18 sidewalk blocking Scientologists walking on 19 the sidewalk, the judgment of acquittal as 20 to those allegations, granted. 21 As to Paragraph 1C, the Tory Bezazian 22 picketing in the entrance to the parking lot 23 blocking ingress and egress to that 24 particular parking lot and picketing in 25 front of the Clearwater Bank Building, the . 800 1 motion for JOA as to those allegations, 2 denied. 3 Now, as to Mr. Henson, which is 4 Paragraph 2 and 2A of that original show 5 cause amended one, that on 4 January of the 6 year 2001, as to Mr. Henson, the motion for 7 judgment of acquittal is denied. 8 Now, as to the next which would be 9 Paragraph 3A, B, C and D. All right, as to 10 paragraph 3A which was the spy cameras it 11 was referred to, as to the allegations in 12 there regarding Minton and Merrett, the JOA 13 a denied. 14 As to the Ward, Prince, Keller, Bennett 15 and Oliver, the JOA is granted. 16 As far as the Merrett obstructing a 17 process server and the allegations contained 18 in that Paragraph D and the fact that 19 allegedly that happened on December 1 and as 20 you know the clarification regarding process 21 servers was entered later in that day, that 22 allegation in paragraph D, the JOA is 23 granted. 24 Now, Enerson, when we go there we 25 switch. We come over now to the order to . 801 1 show cause regarding contempt of 10 January, 2 2001. Enerson in Paragraph 1A, picketed in 3 an non-orange zone. The judgment for 4 acquittal is denied. 5 Paragraph B, the allegations regarding 6 Robert Minton resisting service of process, 7 that's in Paragraph 2B, that occurred after 8 December 1 of the year 2000 and that was 9 actually on January 5 of the year 2001, and 10 the JOA there is denied. 11 As to the Paragraph C, the JOA regarding 12 Mr. Minton, Mr. Enerson and Mr. Lerma, the 13 JOA there on Paragraph C is granted. 14 As to Paragraph D regarding the 15 allegations of Minton, Enerson and Lerma and 16 paragraph -- that also involves Gogolla 17 also, that Paragraph D as far as any 18 allegations in there regarding the 19 megaphones, the JOA would be granted as far 20 as any picketing or protesting, the JOA is 21 denied. 22 Paragraph E, regarding Minton, Enerson 23 and Lerma with the megaphones and also the 24 yelling and the honking of the horns, the 25 JOA there is granted. . 802 1 As far as Paragraph G with Lerma, 2 Bezazian, Enerson, the JOA there is -- 3 excuse me. Let me back up just a minute. 4 I'm sorry. Let me back up. 5 Paragraph D, the picketing the JOA is 6 denied, the megaphone it's granted. 7 Now, Paragraph E, I'm going to come back 8 to that one. 9 Paragraph F, in Paragraph F that part 10 involving Mr. Minton when he crossed across 11 the street and was in the non-orange area 12 and proceeded to walk thus north with the 13 Three P up extending up to the second floor 14 level in the windows, the JOA there is 15 denied. The rest of that particular 16 paragraph, the JOA granted. 17 As to paragraph G the JOA is granted. 18 Paragraph H, the JOA is denied. 19 Going back to paragraph E. My question 20 with Paragraph E and the question in front 21 of the Ft. Harrison property, was that in 22 the orange or non-orange? 23 MR. MERRETT: Orange. 24 MR. POPE: Orange. 25 THE COURT: The JOA is granted. Thank . 803 1 you, gentleman. 2 All right. Now that according to my 3 calculations that covers everything. 4 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 5 THE COURT: Now, do you all want a few 6 minutes to figure out what I said? 7 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir, that would be 8 helpful. 9 THE COURT: Will 15 be sufficient? 10 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 11 THE COURT: All right. I'll tell you 12 what I'll do. We will take a 15 minute 13 recess minimum. Give all the attorneys a 14 chance to map out what I've said and get a 15 picture of exactly what I've said and where 16 we're going from. 17 All right. Thank you all very much. 18 (A short recess took place after which the 19 proceedings continued.) 20 THE COURT: All right. Attorneys, I 21 gave you a chance to take a look at it and 22 are we ready to proceed? 23 MR. MERRETT: We are, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope, you had 25 something, sir. . 804 1 MR. POPE: Your Honor, we had filed a 2 motion in limine with respect to the proof 3 that is getting ready to be offered this 4 afternoon and I would like to ask Ms. Kobrin 5 to present a brief argument to the court on 6 that if, you will permit it. 7 THE COURT: Let me see where we're at. 8 You're asking for the court to consider your 9 motion in limine at this time? 10 MR. POPE: Yes. I am, Your Honor. 11 MR. MERRETT: And we're moving to strike 12 the motion in limine as grossly untimely. 13 This matter was to have been concluded Sunday 14 afternoon, four days ago. Presumably, 15 Scientology could have made whatever 16 predictions they were going to make regarding 17 evidence in anticipation of the trial as 18 originally schedule. Motions in limine are 19 properly taken prior the opening of evidence 20 in the case. This is abusive, it's tardy, 21 it's inappropriate to bring at this time. 22 MR. POPE: Your Honor, we didn't know 23 until the conclusion of evidence on Tuesday 24 that they were going to put on any evidence 25 at all. I mean, they've got a right, as you . 805 1 know, to sit there say and nothing. And we 2 didn't know what they were going to do until 3 Mr. Merrett announced on Tuesday that he had 4 considerable evidence that he was going to 5 put on and that caused, since it was 6 considerable evidence, it seemed to us it was 7 going to involve a whole lot of extraneous 8 matters and we filed a motion arguing quite a 9 bit of law relative to the First Amendment, 10 Church/State issues and that sort of thing 11 and we think ought to be able to allowed to 12 present it at this time. 13 MR. HOWIE: May it please the court, 14 Mr. Minton does join in the motion to strike. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, thank you, sir. 16 I'm sorry I didn't give you an opportunity. 17 MR. HOWIE: That's fine. 18 MR. MERRETT: Judge, can I add one 19 thing? 20 THE COURT: Yeah. 21 MR. MERRETT: I don't think you can rule 22 in vacuo. There are significant distinctions 23 what RTC or Scientology, whoever they are 24 today, filed. It's a scatter shot approach 25 that seems to suggest that they are of the . 806 1 opinion that because they claim to be a 2 religion, none of their corporate policies 3 are subject to being adduced in court, which 4 is clearly not the point. 5 They obviously, whatever other claims 6 they may make don't know exactly what 7 evidence is to be presented. 8 In addition to its being untimely, it 9 will amount to a waste of judicial time 10 because neither the court nor Scientology 11 can predict what's going to be presented. 12 I realize that what they want to do is 13 give you a lengthy tirade about being an 14 oppressed religious minority, but the fact 15 is we're here dealing with evidence relating 16 to a corporate party who is the proponent of 17 the charges in this case. 18 THE COURT: Well, a couple of things 19 occurred to me of which I'm mindful that I 20 had said that I wanted all motions argued and 21 put to rest before we started to take any 22 testimony and then suddenly here come this 23 motion. And then my concern was that in 24 looking at it that would it really be an 25 issue, but I think that if it would help cut . 807 1 down any questions on either side as to what 2 would or would not be presented, I think that 3 since we're moving over now in the defense 4 side, I know that maybe you could expedite or 5 let them know that this or that is not or 6 will not come up. But, besides doing that, 7 the -- what I'm concerned about is I'm going 8 to get barraged with 20 million objections 9 constantly and we're not going to be able to 10 move forward unless we address this thing. 11 MR. MERRETT: I can tell you, Your 12 Honor, you're not going to be called upon to 13 decide on the truth or falsity of any 14 so-called religious beliefs. We're not going 15 to ask you to decide whether any given 16 proposition made by Mr. Hubbard is factual or 17 not which seems to be the thrust of their 18 motion and certainly the thrust of the law 19 with respect to the wall separation between 20 church and state as regards to court matters. 21 THE COURT: Does that help? 22 MR. POPE: Not particularly, Your Honor. 23 To me, what we tried to do in the motion for 24 limine was set forth the broad law that is 25 going do have to apply to this matter and to . 808 1 me it would be helpful on the front end to at 2 least present this to the court so that you 3 know where we're coming from too because of 4 the exact problem you mentioned and that is 5 the barrage of objections. 6 I don't like to stand up and interrupt 7 counsel's examination of witnesses all the 8 time, but, you know, we may just put in the 9 position of having to do that and so I 10 viewed this as a helpful matter that would 11 wind up saving us time instead of 12 squandering it. 13 MR. MERRETT: Judge, I just have to 14 point out in calculated time if you want to 15 sit down and start reading what has been 16 presented and delivered now, I think we would 17 be through the end of the day if you just 18 read the document that Scientology dumped on 19 everybody on the eleventh hour so I don't 20 know that that can necessarily be taken as 21 gospel, not to interject religion into the 22 proceeding. 23 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, if I may. 24 THE COURT: You may. 25 MR. HOWIE: In support of the motion to . 809 1 strike I point out that 90.611 is a fairly 2 limited applicability and only goes to the 3 issue of presenting evidence to either 4 challenge of question the credibility of a 5 witness, it is strictly in a rule of 6 impeachment and as a rule of impeachment it 7 will be fairly clear if a matter of religion 8 is being used to impeach a witness who is 9 actually on the stand, that is subject to 10 objection pursuant to 90.611. 11 It's an objection that was raised from 12 time to time as we go through the 13 proceedings without undue delay. 14 I don't think we need a major motion in 15 limine and I'm concerned the motion in 16 limine goes far field of 90.611 and will 17 attempt to exclude all aspects, all issues 18 concerning religion. 19 I would point out that Aliazar in his 20 commentary on 90.611 points out that 21 although religious beliefs cannot be used to 22 either bolster or challenge the credibility 23 of the witness, they can come in for any 24 other relative purpose and my concern in 25 joining with this motion to strike is that . 810 1 the petitioner is going to be arguing that 2 matters of religion cannot come in for any 3 purpose whatsoever, not even to show bias or 4 prejudice of a witness as opposed to 5 credibility. 6 A fine line, but a line none the less. 7 The court can make on that ad hoc basis ask 8 question that are asked of these witnesses. 9 Now, I certainly don't intend to 10 challenge the reliability or credibility of 11 any witness based on religious belief and I 12 don't believe Mr. Merrett intends to either 13 that's why we are moving to strike this 14 because we think that this can be handled on 15 an objection by objection basis without 16 undue delay. 17 THE COURT: We're going to get going and 18 I'll handle it on an objection by objection 19 basis and it looks like that the court is 20 going to have to address it, we'll do it 21 tomorrow morning, but I'm going to get 22 started today and if it doesn't become an 23 issue today, at least it will give the 24 attorneys an opportunity to look at it 25 tonight and then you can -- I don't know how . 811 1 long you've had it for a very short period or 2 time. 3 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, for the record 4 it was faxed to me about starting 4:47 5 yesterday afternoon. I did not receive the 6 case law on it until it was couriered to me 7 approximately two hours ago. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. Frankly, I'm not 9 ready to proceed on it either. 10 MR. POPE: Your Honor -- 11 THE COURT: So tomorrow morning would be 12 the soonest that I -- and we'll go otherwise 13 and you can preserve objections. If we get 14 into a sticky wicket, we'll stop at that time 15 and see what we do, okay. 16 MR. POPE: Fine. 17 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I have one 18 side matter if the court would explain to 19 many of these people, particular the 20 witnesses, that it is a wise idea to hesitate 21 before answering so that an objection can be 22 interposed without killing the court 23 reporter. 24 THE COURT: I think you did a brilliant 25 job of that. . 812 1 MR. MERRETT: Thank you, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Anybody have any questions 3 about what he said? We'll move on. 4 All right. Now that we move over to the 5 other side, Mr. Merrett, sir, you want to 6 cal your first witness? 7 Wait a minute. Let's going how we're 8 going to do this. This is interesting, 9 Mr. Howie and Mr. Merrett, did you flip a 10 coin? How are we going to do this. 11 Mr. Howie? 12 MR. HOWIE: I am always willing to defer 13 to Mr. Merrett since he often speaks for me. 14 THE COURT: I've noticed you speak for 15 him sometimes too and I just wondered since 16 Mr. Minton's name was first on the defense 17 list or defendants, I didn't know whether you 18 have planned to go first. 19 MR. HOWIE: No, I will defer to 20 Mr. Merrett if he is anxious and ready to go. 21 MR. MERRETT: But Merrett comes before 22 Minton alphabetically. I'm also a defendant 23 and if we move clockwise we come to me first 24 anyway. 25 THE COURT: Let's proceed. Let's . 813 1 proceed. 2 MR. MERRETT: Call Keith Henson. 3 THE COURT: I've sworn him previously. 4 I'm going to keep you under that same oath. 5 Ladies and gentlemen, I assume that the 6 people who in the courtroom today, remember 7 we have talked time and again about that 8 chair being bolted down. They didn't unbolt 9 it last night and everyone is going to get 10 in there and you're still going to try to 11 move it forward and you're going to come 12 forward so don't strain your back. Let's 13 move on. Let's proceed. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. MERRETT: 16 Q Thank you, Your Honor. Tell us your name, 17 sir? 18 A Howard Keith Henson, but I usually go by 19 Keith Henson. 20 Q Where do you live? 21 A Palo Alto, California. 22 Q How long have you lived out there? 23 A In Palo Alto or California? 24 Q In California. 25 A 15 years. . 814 1 Q Did you have occasion to be in Clearwater 2 back the first weekend of December of 2000? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q Can you tell the court how you got here? 5 A I flew here. 6 Q And was that on your own nickel or did 7 somebody pay for that for you? 8 A No, Ida Camburn from Hemet, California paid 9 for it. 10 Q Is she a friend of yours? 11 A She is a person I met relatively recently, 12 but, yes, I consider her a friend. 13 Q What was your purpose for coming to 14 Clearwater that weekend? 15 A The annual Lisa McPherson Protest Picket. 16 Q And when you say Lisa McPherson protest, 17 what do you mean? 18 A Well, for many years there has been a 19 protest here over the gruesome death of Lisa McPherson 20 who was held in the hands of the Scientologists. 21 Q And when you said for many years, over how 22 many years? 23 A At least several. It's been -- I'm not 24 really good at keeping track of the time on that, but 25 I've been here three or four times on this. . 815 1 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. Were there 2 pickets here regarding the death of Lisa McPherson, 3 here being in Clearwater, before the Lisa McPherson 4 Trust was started? 5 A Long before; several years. 6 Q Okay. Now, was this to have been the first 7 time you picket Scientology? 8 A No. 9 Q Can you tell the court about how many times 10 you have picketed Scientology? 11 A Something between 200 and 300 times. 12 Q Now, with this weekend, the first weekend in 13 December, was that the last time that you picketed 14 Scientology? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. How many times have you picketed 17 Scientology since that weekend? 18 A Seven or eight times; maybe nine. 19 Q So we can safely assume that prior to the 20 first weekend of December 2000 you had picketed 21 Scientology over 200 times? 22 A Oh, easily. 23 Q Okay. Now, can you tell the court if you 24 know Bob Minton? 25 A Yes. . 816 1 Q How long have you known Bob Minton? 2 A I'm not exactly sure, but it was sometime in 3 1996 when I became aware of Bob Minton. 4 Q Had you picketed Scientology before becoming 5 aware of Bob Minton? 6 A Many times. 7 Q When you say many times, can you give the 8 court an idea how many times? 9 A 40 or 50. 10 Q Now, did you at one time or do you have any 11 kind of official connection with the Lisa McPherson 12 Trust? 13 A I had an entirely nominal connection as an 14 advisor. 15 Q What does that mean? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Okay. Were you listed on the brochure as a 18 member of the advisory board? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Okay. Did you ever attend any meetings of 21 the advisory board? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you know that there were any meetings? 24 A I never received notice of any. 25 Q Were you ever asked to perform any services . 817 1 or provide anything in your capacity as an advisor? 2 A No. 3 Q Okay. Can you tell the court what day you 4 arrived in the Tampa Bay area in preparation for the 5 picket over the first weekend of December? 6 A Without consulting the ticket, probably not, 7 but it was a day or two before the picket started. 8 Q Okay. 9 A 29th or 30th; I think the evening of the 10 29th. 11 Q Okay. Did you meet any people that you 12 expected to be here? 13 A Yes, quite a few of them. 14 Q Okay. Did you have occasion at any time 15 between arriving here in Clearwater and December 1 to 16 make any announcements regarding your status as a 17 member of the advisory board? 18 A Yes. 19 Q When and where did that happen? 20 A At a restaurant the first day I was here, 21 the restaurant next to the LMT. 22 Q Ottavio's? 23 A Ottavio's. 24 Q What was your announcement? 25 A That I resigned from it. . 818 1 Q Okay. Why did you do that? 2 A I didn't want to cause the Lisa McPherson 3 Trust any problems. 4 Q Had you ever received any compensation for 5 your service or non-service as a member of advisory 6 board? 7 A No. 8 Q And to whom did you announce your 9 resignation? 10 A To Stacy Brooks and to several other of the 11 office staff of the LMT and I believe I announced it 12 to you as well. 13 Q Okay. Was this something that you did 14 angrily or was it just a business-like announcement? 15 A Business-like. 16 Q Okay. Do you recall having received any 17 suggestion or advice from me or from anybody else 18 connected with the LMT regarding picketing and where 19 you should picket and what you should do? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What was the advice? 22 A The advice was to consider myself covered 23 with it, by the picket, by the thing and or possibly 24 covered and to stay within the rules that the picket, 25 that the injunction rules. . 819 1 Q Did you do that initially? 2 A No. 3 Q Why not? 4 A Because I believed very, very strongly that 5 I was not covered by the injunction. 6 Q Why did you believe that? 7 A Careful reading of the injunction to me 8 indicated that it covered only people who were 9 associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust in some 10 official capacity, for example being employees of it. 11 Q Uh-huh. Okay. 12 A At least that was my reading of it. 13 Q Now, I want to slow down and proceed 14 chronologically. Were you present in court when a 15 videotape was played that appeared or showed 16 Mr. Minton giving currency to you and another man? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Now, that was on November 30, right? 19 A I think so. I'm not sure. 20 Q Okay. Can you tell the court what became of 21 the cash Mr. Minton gave you on that videotape? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What became of it? 24 A I gave it back to him. 25 Q What was the point of the exercise that we . 820 1 saw on the videotape? 2 A It was as you so well put it, to yank 3 Antonio's chain. 4 Q And by doing what? What was the reference? 5 A Street theater. 6 THE COURT: Was what, I'm sorry? 7 MR. HENSON: Street theater. 8 THE COURT: Street theater? 9 MR. HENSON: The Scientologists are 10 always making the point on the postings on 11 the internet that Mr. Minton pays for all of 12 the picketing that's done and, of course, 13 that's not true. 14 BY MR. MERRETT: 15 Q Is that what it refers to? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Let me ask you if during your present visit 18 to Clearwater or to the Clearwater area if there has 19 been a similar episode of street theater? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And when did that occur? 22 A Out back of the Lisa McPherson Trust in view 23 of the spy camera. 24 Q When? 25 A The night before that photograph was . 821 1 introduced here. 2 Q Okay, so it this past week? 3 A I guess it would have been Sunday evening. 4 Q Okay. What did you and Mr. Minton do? 5 A Mr. Minton gave me a rather large wad of 6 several different kinds of foreign currency, pounds 7 and marks and French francs I think, but I really 8 didn't look at it. 9 Q What became of that money? 10 A We had dinner that night and I fished it all 11 out of the pocket of this particular coat and gave it 12 back to Mr. Minton. 13 Q Okay. So during the weekend of December or 14 the first weekend in December, that time period, were 15 you being paid by Mr. Minton or anybody else to 16 picket? 17 A No. 18 Q Was anyone other than Ida Camburn 19 contributing to your transportation, maintenance and 20 upkeep? 21 A No. 22 Q Does Mrs. Camburn have any connection with 23 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 24 A Not that I know of. 25 Q Okay. Now, you said that you resigned from . 822 1 the advisory board and some people made some 2 suggestions about where to picket and you went in and 3 picketed under the assumption that you were not 4 covered by the injunction. Can you tell Judge Penick 5 where you went to picket? 6 A Yes, in front of the Ft. Harrison where I 7 had picketed several times before. 8 Q When you say several -- 9 A In previous years. 10 Q Okay. You're talking about the sidewalk 11 immediately in front of the building? 12 A Correct. 13 Q How long did you picket out there? 14 A Well, I'm not certain on this. I believe I 15 picketed the previous day, as well. 16 Q Uh-huh. 17 A Which would have been November 30. 18 Q Okay. 19 A That was before the injunction came out. 20 Q Okay. After the injunction came out, how 21 long did you picket in front of the Ft. Harrison? 22 A I don't really know. Perhaps four hours 23 that day. 24 Q Okay. Now. You heard testimony from 25 Lindsey Colton about attempting to serve you; do you . 823 1 recall that? 2 A That's true. 3 Q And is it correct that you dash across the 4 street and back across the street and what not? 5 A Yes, I've done that a number of times being 6 chased by Scientologists in other cities. 7 Q Where did the injunction that she was 8 attempting to serve on you end up? 9 A In the intersection on the northeast corner 10 of -- I'm sorry, I don't remember the street. It's 11 the north side of the Ft. Harrison. 12 Q Pierce? 13 A Pierce, it was on the intersection up there. 14 Q Pierce and Ft. Harrison? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. When this copy of the injunction 17 landed in the street, did you do anything in 18 particular? 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q What was that? 21 A I called the police. 22 Q Why? 23 A Littering. 24 Q Did the police respond? 25 A Yes, they did. . 824 1 Q Did a policeman come out there? 2 A Yes, he did. 3 Q Did you talk to him? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q What did you tell him? 6 A Well, I told what was going on and it seemed 7 that the injunction had been intensely discussed among 8 the police department, as well. 9 Q Did the policeman give you any instructions 10 or make any requests at that time? 11 A No. I asked the policeman what the 12 consensus was at the police department about this, 13 namely -- 14 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor. He's 15 getting into hearsay. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, if I may, at 18 this point he's telling you what he asked the 19 policeman, not what the policeman said. 20 THE COURT: All right. Let me hear what 21 he says and then we'll see. 22 BY MR. MERRETT: 23 Q What I want you to do right now is just 24 finish your question to the policeman. What did you 25 ask him? . 825 1 A My question to the policeman was, I 2 explained a little bit about my position and that I 3 was not an employee of the Lisa McPherson Trust and in 4 fact was a visitor from California and I asked the 5 policeman what, if he felt that I was covered by the 6 injunction. 7 Q Okay. 8 A The policeman then told me -- 9 MR. POPE: Objection. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, it goes to the 12 state of mind. Intent is an element of the 13 offense. 14 THE COURT: All right. I'll let it go. 15 BY MR. MERRETT: 16 Q What did the policeman tell you at that 17 point. 18 A The policeman told me that the injunction 19 had been intensely discussed among the police and they 20 felt that it only applied to people that were 21 employees of the LMT. 22 Q Okay. And did he give you any particular 23 mandate or valediction? 24 A Well, he said that I could picket wherever I 25 wanted and to have fun. . 826 1 Q Did you go do that? 2 A Yes, indeed. 3 Q Where did you go picket at that point? 4 A A number of places, but mostly in front of 5 the -- well, in front of the Lisa McPherson Trust and 6 down by the Sand Castle and across from the Coachman 7 Building and various other places around town. 8 Q Did there come a time after that that you 9 had another conversation with a policeman? 10 A That sure was. 11 Q Was that that same day? 12 A Yes, it was. 13 Q What was subject and listen carefully to my 14 question, what was the subject of the discussion with 15 the police on that second time? 16 A The subject of the conversation at that time 17 which is actually on videotape, was that the police 18 reconsidered or -- 19 Q Not -- 20 MR. POPE: Objection. Same objection. 21 MR. MERRETT: I'll come back around at 22 it another way, Your Honor, and give 23 everybody a wave of a flag before -- 24 THE COURT: Okay. Let's see what 25 happens. . 827 1 BY MR. MERRETT: 2 Q I'm not asking what he told you. 3 A Okay. 4 Q The subject matter was where people could 5 picket, right? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. Now -- 8 A -- and who it applied to. 9 Q Okay. And now for state of mind and don't 10 answer this question. Let's wait and let Mr. Pope 11 interpose his objection, being offered to show 12 Mr. Henson's state of mind at that point, the question 13 is what did the officer tell you? Now just wait. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. POPE: Same objection, and in 16 addition of that the policeman was not 17 identified in any way. I don't think the 18 date and time has been stated. There is 19 simply not enough particularity. This is 20 vague. 21 THE COURT: Lack of predicate. 22 BY MR. MERRETT: 23 Q Okay. Approximately when did this occur? 24 A It was close to dark that day. It was 25 certain twilight. . 828 1 Q On December 1? 2 A On December 1. 3 Q And do you recall the policeman's name? 4 A I actually wrote a note about in at that 5 time, but I have not reviewed the note. 6 Q Do you have your notes with you? 7 A No, I don't. I'm sorry. 8 Q How did you know this was a policeman? 9 A He and the other four or five policemen that 10 were standing around were in uniforms. 11 Q Okay. And the question then is what did he 12 tell you was different about picketing and who is 13 applied to? 14 MR. POPE: Same objection, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Same ruling. 16 MR. MERRETT: Same ruling, overruled 17 because it a state of mind? 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 BY MR. MERRETT: 20 Q What did he tell you? 21 A He advised me that we probably shouldn't 22 picket there. 23 Q There being where? 24 A Any of the people who were not associated 25 with the Lisa McPherson Trust might be covered by it. . 829 1 He was unsure. 2 Q Uh-huh. 3 A But he did say that they decided that 4 anybody who picketed after being notified by the 5 police on the subject they would take reports although 6 they wouldn't arrest anybody and make police reports 7 on it. 8 Q Okay. Is it correct that the policeman 9 essentially told you that it might very well apply to 10 you? 11 A In essence, yes. 12 Q And what, if anything, did you do different 13 as a result of police officer telling you that? 14 A I abided by the injunction, though I did 15 state that I was doing so under protest. 16 Q Did you, after the policeman, after the 17 second conversation with the policeman when he told 18 you that the injunction might cover you, did you again 19 picket or protest outside an orange zone? 20 A To the best of my knowledge, no. 21 Q Okay. The videotapes that were entered in 22 evidence during Scientology's case in chief, were all 23 of the events prior to this conversation with the 24 police? 25 A Yes. . 830 1 Q Okay. Now, Ms. Colton testified that you 2 were passing out flyers. Do you recall passing out 3 flyers? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. MERRETT: Now, my I approach the 6 witness, Your Honor? 7 THE COURT: You may. 8 BY MR. MERRETT: 9 Q Let me ask you if you recognize this 10 document as being a copy of the flyer that you were 11 passing out that weekend? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what is the flyer about? 14 A Xenu. 15 MR. MERRETT: Okay. And, Your Honor, I 16 would tender this as I don't know what the 17 number would be? 18 THE COURT: I think it's your number 19 five. 20 MR. POPE: My objection is to relevance, 21 Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Just a second. Let 23 me do something else. 24 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the relevance 25 objection is that the issue as to this . 831 1 defendant is picketing in a prohibited zone 2 and that particular document doesn't prove or 3 disprove any aspect of that. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett. 5 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, it does 6 however go to the issue of his connection 7 with the Lisa McPherson Trust which is an 8 element to his defense. His lack of 9 connection we will be able to demonstrate 10 that that document is not just not a Lisa 11 McPherson Trust document but it is not of a 12 category of the documents that the Trust 13 disseminates. 14 THE COURT: All right. Objection is 15 overruled. Proceed. It will be received as 16 Defendant LMT's Exhibit Number Five. Please 17 proceed. 18 BY MR. MERRETT: 19 Q Thank you. Can you tell the court 20 Mr. Henson where you got the Xenu flyer? 21 A Yes, I printed it from the net. 22 Q From the internet? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Does to your knowledge the Lisa McPherson 25 Trust distribute any Xenu material? . 832 1 A They did not at that time. I'm sure of 2 that. 3 Q Okay. Was there ever a time during your 4 visit to Clearwater that first weekend of December, 5 2000 that you picketed or protested in a forbidden 6 area when you believed that the injunction applied to 7 you? 8 A No. I still don't believe the injunction 9 applies to me. 10 Q But since the policeman's opinion or 11 statement to you, you've confined yourself to the 12 orange zones when in Clearwater? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. MERRETT: I don't have anything 15 further, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 17 MR. HOWIE: I don't have any questions, 18 Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. POPE: 22 Q Yes, Your Honor. May I examine the witness 23 from here, Your Honor? 24 THE COURT: You may, sir. 25 . 833 1 BY MR. POPE: 2 Q All right. Mr. Henson, I believe you 3 testified that one of the first things that happened 4 when you went to town was that you came up to 5 Clearwater was that you carefully reviewed a copy of 6 the injunction; is that correct? 7 A No. 8 Q You did say, did you not, that at some point 9 in time you carefully reviewed a copy of the 10 injunction? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q All right. When was it you did that? 13 A After I had talked to the police the second 14 time and the evening of the December 1. 15 Q So before November 30 or before the evening 16 of December 1 you did not review the terms of the 17 injunction? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q All right. And so the first time you saw 20 the injunction was after you had picketed in front of 21 the Ft. Harrison, is that your testimony? 22 A Certainly, yes. It would have -- I may have 23 seen the outside of one of them, but I did not look at 24 the contents of it. 25 Q Do you remember sending a letter to the . 834 1 court addressed to John Merrett care of Judge Penick 2 and the fax date on it is January 19, 01 12:23 PM; 3 remember sending that letter? 4 A I suspect that fax date may be off, but I'm 5 not almost certain that that's not a correct date. 6 Q What was the date you sent this to Judge 7 Penick? 8 A It probably would have been a day or two 9 before, January 12. 10 Q All right. At the bottom of your letter 11 it's signed in Palo Alto, California, January 10, 12 2001? 13 A Yes, that would have been the date I sent 14 it. 15 Q All right. Let me -- this letter is in 16 evidence. Let me read the fourth paragraph. 17 THE COURT: Let me hand him this to him, 18 Mr. Pope, so he can read along. 19 MR. POPE: That's fine. 20 THE COURT: Sir. 21 MR. HENSON: Yes, I've got it. 22 THE COURT: You have a copy? 23 MR. HENSON: Yes, sir. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 . 835 1 BY MR. POPE: 2 Q In that fourth paragraph the states I made 3 my choices of where and when to picket over the 4 objection of Mr. Merrett who was at the LMT at that 5 time and suggested that I abide by the terms of the 6 injunction. You wrote that, didn't you? 7 A Read the next sentence, please? 8 Q Answer my first question first? 9 A Did I write this? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Certainly. I signed it. 12 Q Okay. I pointed out to Mr. Merrett that I 13 resigned from the entirely nominal position of advisor 14 prior to doing any picketing and was therefore not 15 affiliated with the Trust in any way. 16 Now, at the time you made your choices of 17 where and when to picket, you had had a discussion 18 with Mr. Merrett about it, hadn't you? 19 A No. 20 Q You say you made your choices where and when 21 to picket over the objection of Mr. Merrett? 22 A I didn't discuss it with him. 23 Q How do you know, he made an objection to 24 you? 25 A He made an objection to me without me saying . 836 1 anything to him at all. 2 Q What did he tell you? 3 A He told me that it would probably be prudent 4 to obey the terms of the injunction. 5 Q Had you seen the injunction at that time? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you -- 8 A Correction. I had seen the outside of the 9 copy of the injunction. 10 Q Did you inquire of Mr. Merrett at that time 11 as to what the terms of the injunction were? 12 A No. 13 Q So you just -- he said it would probably be 14 prudent for you to obey it and you basically said I'm 15 going to do what I want to do and ignore his 16 objection; is that correct? 17 A My argument that is -- 18 Q Is that correct, sir? 19 A Excuse me? Repeat the question. 20 Q All right. He told you that it would be 21 prudent for you to follow the terms of the injunction, 22 correct? 23 A Told is a little bit strong. Suggested 24 might -- 25 Q He suggested, okay. And then you did not . 837 1 ask him what the terms of the injunction were, 2 correct? 3 A I may have known some of the general aspects 4 of the terms of the injunction, because -- 5 Q And then you decided that you simply weren't 6 going to follow this suggestion that Mr. Merrett made 7 to you; is that correct? 8 A I stated once I didn't believe that it 9 applied to me. 10 Q Is that correct? You had concluded without 11 reading its terms or discussing it with Mr. Merrett 12 that it did not apply to you; is that correct? 13 A I believe that I had heard the terms of it 14 and the terms of the things seemed to apply only to 15 people who were employees of the Lisa McPherson Trust. 16 Q So you decided to go out on the street and 17 picket where you wanted to and take your chances, 18 correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q All right. Now, I noticed in here, in your 21 letter here that is dated January 10, and it may have 22 been sent a few days afterwards -- 23 A No. 24 Q There is no mention of any conversations 25 with the police in this letter that you're writing to . 838 1 the court to explain why you did what you did. There 2 is no mention in here whatever of any discussions you 3 had with the police, which you today have told us is 4 the reason you did what you did; isn't what true? 5 A Excuse me? 6 Q Do you see any mention in here of your 7 conversations with the police officers who told you 8 that it was okay for you to picket in front of the 9 Ft. Harrison? 10 A I don't know understand the point. 11 Q Listen -- 12 MR. MERRETT: I'll object, Your Honor. 13 The document speaks for itself. 14 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed. 15 BY MR. POPE: 16 Q Mr. Henson, you make no mention in this 17 letter of any conversation with a police officer 18 telling you that it was okay to picket; isn't that 19 true? 20 A I don't make mention of all the other 21 thousands of conversations that went on in those days. 22 Q Is that true, Mr. Henson? 23 A Is certainly is, but I believe at the time I 24 made a net posting which mentions it. 25 Q All right. What you dwell on in your letter . 839 1 is that you're not affiliated with the LMT, correct? 2 A That was my belief. 3 Q Okay. Now hasn't, in the last several years 4 hasn't Mr. Minton given you at least $26,000 in a 5 couple payments, one of $25,000 and one of $1,000? 6 A No. 7 Q Has he given you any money at all in the 8 last three years? 9 A Several years ago I believe he gave me 10 $1,000. 11 Q $1,000? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What was the purpose of that? 14 A It was a gift. I don't remember exactly 15 when it was. 16 Q Was it a gift to assist you in 17 anti-Scientology activities? 18 A Not exactly. It was a gift that was to help 19 me pay things like mortgage payments and food at a 20 time when Scientology had pretty much kept me out of 21 work for a long time. 22 Q Let me phrase the question this way about 23 the $25,000. Didn't he pay $25,000 in legal fees to 24 your attorneys? 25 A He paid $25,000 in legal fees to the . 840 1 attorney's Mesick, Feeler and Garrett (sic) out in Los 2 Angeles. 3 Q In what case? 4 A In -- there were four cases that they had 5 against me at the time, so I'm not sure which one it 6 got spent on. 7 Q Four cases against you arising out of how 8 many hundred episodes of anti-Scientology activities? 9 A Excuse me? 10 Q You testified on your direct that you had 11 engaged in picketing and protesting of the 12 Scientologists, as I recall, several hundred times; is 13 that correct? 14 A Well, between two and three hundred, 15 probably. 16 Q Two and three hundred times, right. And as 17 a consequence of that you've gotten involved in four 18 lawsuits; is that correct? 19 A I think it's actually eight or nine. 20 Q One of those lawsuits, the religious 21 technology, RTC which is a Scientology corporation, 22 sued you for copyright infringement, didn't it? 23 A Yes, they did. 24 Q They got about a $75,000 federal court 25 judgment against you for that, didn't they? . 841 1 MR. MERRETT: I'll object to relevance. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 BY MR. POPE: 4 Q Isn't that correct? 5 A They did. I was attempting to expose 6 Scientology's criminal activities at the time very 7 similar to the criminal activities that they engaged 8 in to kill Lisa McPherson. 9 MR. POPE: And I move to strike that, 10 Your Honor. Move to strike the reference to 11 criminal activities to kill Lisa McPherson. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 BY MR. POPE: 14 Q So you were attempting to expose criminal 15 activities and you wound up having a $75,000 judgment 16 entered against you in a federal court in California? 17 A I sure did. 18 Q And you had a contempt order in that same 19 court, didn't you? 20 MR. MERRETT: Objection. Relevance. 21 THE COURT: Overruled. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 23 BY MR. POPE: 24 Q All right. You've also had an injunction 25 entered against you in that same court, haven't you? . 842 1 A Yes. 2 Q All right. Did that injunction in federal 3 court enjoin you and all other persons in active 4 concert or participation with you from doing certain 5 items? 6 MR. MERRETT: Objection. Relevance. 7 MR. POPE: Dealing with the same 8 language -- 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 BY MR. POPE: 11 Q Did it? 12 A No. 13 Q All right. 14 A Do you want me to explain why the answer was 15 no? 16 Q I'll ask you my next question, sir. Now, 17 you do concede that up to the point of your 18 resignation from LMT you were shown as an advisory 19 committee member? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Let me show you the brochure from the Lisa 22 McPherson Trust. May I approach the witness? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 BY MR. POPE: 25 Q Would you just take a look at that, . 843 1 Mr. Henson? 2 (Whereupon, documents were reviewed.) 3 A Okay. 4 Q Had you seen that before? 5 A No. 6 Q That is your name on there, isn't it? 7 A That's true. 8 Q And it has Ida Camburn's name on it as well? 9 A That's true. 10 Q Is she the person that's financed some of 11 your Scientology picketing activities? 12 A She paid my way out here in December. 13 Q Who paid your way this time? 14 A Mr. Merrett. 15 Q Okay. Now, you were in the courtroom, I 16 believe, when Lindsey Colton, the process server, 17 testified, weren't you, Mr. Henson? 18 A Yes, I was. 19 Q And you heard her say that when she 20 approached, didn't you, you said you have to stay ten 21 feet away from me. You're violating the ten foot 22 rule. You said that to her, didn't you? 23 A I believe I did. 24 Q Okay. So, as of the time she was trying to 25 serve you with an injunction you knew that there was a . 844 1 ten foot rule in there, correct? 2 A I thought it applied to picketers in 3 general. 4 Q And you sought the protection of that rule. 5 You told her to stay at least ten feet away. You 6 wanted the benefit of the part of injunction, didn't 7 you? 8 A I certainly was tired of her whacking me on 9 the back with it. 10 Q Okay. So you wanted the protection that 11 that injunction offered you to keep her ten feet away, 12 didn't you? 13 A I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the 14 concept here. 15 Q You invoked the protection of the ten foot 16 rule of the injunction to keep her at a ten foot 17 distance from you, didn't you, sir? 18 A Come to think of it that was before the 19 judge had ruled that the process servers were exempt, 20 so I guess she was violating it if I was. 21 Q Let's see if I can get you to answer my 22 question. Did you not in your comment to Ms. Colton 23 invoke the protection of the ten foot rule of that 24 injunction? 25 MR. MERRETT: Objection. Asked and . 845 1 answered. 2 MR. POPE: Asked and evaded is more like 3 it, Your Honor. 4 MR. MERRETT: Judge, if I may, he said 5 yes, I did tell her to keep ten feet away. 6 THE COURT: Is that your answer? 7 MR. HENSON: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Proceed. 9 BY MR. POPE: 10 Q All right. Now, at the time that this joke 11 occurred with Mr. Minton handing you cash; remember 12 that event? 13 A Yes. 14 Q You and Mr. Minton together were picketing 15 in front of the Ft. Harrison, weren't you? 16 A I don't believe so. 17 Q You don't remember that the photograph shows 18 you holding a picket? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Doesn't it show Mr. Minton holding a picket 21 too? 22 A I don't believe it does. 23 Q Who is the third person with you? 24 A Bob Clark. But I might add, Mr. Minton was 25 not holding a picket sign. He wasn't picketing. . 846 1 Q You would agree that the videotape of the 2 event would probably be the best evidence of that, 3 wouldn't you? 4 A Certainly, but it's very difficult to be 5 handing out cash encumbered with a picket sign. 6 Q When you came to town and was that on 7 November 30 or was it before? 8 A I believe I came in late on the 29th, but 9 I'm not certain. 10 Q When was the first time you went to the 11 offices of the LMT at 33 North Ft. Harrison? 12 A Probably the next day. 13 Q Who did you meet there? 14 A I don't remember all the people. There was 15 a bunch of them. 16 Q Did you get your picket there, your picket 17 sign you were going to carry? 18 A No. 19 Q Where did you get it? 20 A Um, we assembled those around back of the 21 Ft. Harrison if I remember correctly. 22 Q Who is the we who assembled them? 23 A I don't remember everybody that was involved 24 in this. It was quite a crowd of people. 25 Q It was a crowd of people including a number . 847 1 of representatives of the LMT, wasn't it? 2 A I don't know. I don't actually know whether 3 there were LMT representatives there or not. 4 Q So you gathered with a crowd of people and 5 picket signs were passed out on that day, the 30th of 6 November? 7 MR. MERRETT: Objection. Assuming facts 8 not in evidence. The testimony was they were 9 assembled, not they were passed out. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase your 11 question. 12 BY MR. POPE: 13 Q I will. You assembled with a group of 14 people behind the Ft. Harrison Hotel, is that you told 15 us? 16 A I believe that's where it was. 17 Q At that time there were pickets available, 18 correct? 19 A I'm trying to remember exactly on that. I 20 believe from looking at the photographs and the other 21 stuff there that I had borrowed Arnie Lerma's sign to 22 picket on the 30th of November. 23 Q So -- 24 A The on the first of November I believe that 25 I had another sign that was made from materials in . 848 1 back that we assembled in back of the Ft. Harrison, 2 but I'm not sure about this. 3 Q You didn't bring these picket signs with you 4 on the plane, did you? 5 A No, I didn't. I usually -- I very often do, 6 but I didn't this time. 7 Q This time you got them from someone after 8 you arrived in Clearwater? 9 A Well, no. 10 Q No? 11 A In fact I made about -- if I remember 12 correctly, I made personally and paid for them myself 13 about a half a dozen picket signs. You can tell the 14 ones that are mine that I was making because they have 15 about two inch letters and are made by running a 16 master through a 400 percent expansion machine at 17 Kinko's. 18 Q Did you give some of these that you made to 19 other persons? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Who received them? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Were they affiliated with the LMT? 24 A I'm not sure. They might have been. 25 MR. POPE: May I have a moment, Your . 849 1 Honor. 2 THE COURT: You have it. 3 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took 4 place.) 5 MR. POPE: May I show this to 6 Mr. Merrett? I'm showing him the photographs 7 here. 8 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 9 MR. POPE: May I approach the witness, 10 Your Honor? 11 THE COURT: You may, sir. 12 BY MR. POPE: 13 Q Let me show you these two photographs, 14 Mr. Henson, and tell me if you can identify those. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Are those photographs of you picketing in 17 California? 18 A Yes, they are. 19 Q And what is the telephone number on your 20 picket there? 21 A The LMT number. 22 Q In Florida? 23 A That's true. 24 MR. POPE: Thank you. Your Honor, he's 25 identified these things now. I'd offer them . 850 1 into evidence out of time. 2 THE COURT: Out of time depends on what 3 does the other side say? 4 MR. MERRETT: I object only as to 5 relevance, Your Honor. 6 MR. HOWIE: Join, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. As to the 8 objection as to relevance, overruled. They 9 can be admitted. 10 MR. POPE: No further questions, Your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: All right. Bear with me 13 just a minute while I get this in evidence. 14 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 15 15 was admitted into evidence.) 16 All right. It's in evidence here, 17 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 15 and I will 18 call this a composite. 19 MR. POPE: Okay. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, you want to go? 21 MR. HOWIE: Nothing further, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett? 23 MR. MERRETT: Briefly, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 . 851 1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. MERRETT: 3 Q Mr. Henson, the copyright infringement, you 4 started to explain that. What were the materials in 5 question. 6 A NOTs 34. 7 Q What is NOTs 34? 8 A It's a description of -- 9 MS. KOBRIN: Objection, Your Honor. 10 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I have to 11 object. Only one attorney is allowed to 12 handle each witness under the local rules. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, is there an 14 objection on the table? 15 MR. POPE: Let me hear what he's got to 16 say a little bit more before I object, Your 17 Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. MERRETT: 20 Q What is NOTs 34? 21 A It is a secret document of Scientology. 22 MR. POPE: Your Honor, we're getting now 23 into the completely irrelevant matter dealing 24 with religious beliefs of these folks. 25 MR. MERRETT: In that case I would move . 852 1 to strike Mr. Pope's questioning regarding 2 the copyright matter and that he be 3 sanctioned for raising irrelevant matters. 4 MR. POPE: The judgment by the 5 California court against Mr. Henson goes to 6 his credibility and his prejudice. 7 THE COURT: Objection overruled. 8 Proceed. 9 BY MR. MERRETT: 10 Q What are they about? 11 A They are about the illegal practices of 12 medicine by curing with an E-meter -- 13 MS. KOBRIN: Objection, Your Honor. 14 MR. POPE: Let me do this. Judge, this 15 doesn't have a thing to do with the issue of 16 whether Mr. Henson did what he did on the 17 streets of Clearwater. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, anything you 19 want to add? 20 MR. MERRETT: Simply that he asked about 21 the copyright infringement. This is the 22 subject matter of the alleged copyright 23 infringement. 24 MR. HENSON: I was cut off before I 25 finished the answer. . 853 1 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the only 2 pertinence of the copyright infringement is 3 that a judgment was entered and a contempt 4 order was entered and it goes to the witness' 5 prejudice and his bias and credibility. 6 THE COURT: I understand where we're at 7 on this and I think that I understand the 8 points being made is credibility. I'll 9 sustain at this point. Go on to something 10 else. 11 BY MR. MERRETT: 12 Q Now, the issue has been raised regarding the 13 bias presumably against Scientology. Does your bias 14 against Scientology arise from the copyright 15 infringement judgment? 16 A No. 17 Q Does any bias you have against Scientology 18 arise from the contempt order that was supposedly 19 entered? 20 A No. 21 Q Can you explain to court the basis and 22 origin of your bias against Scientology? 23 A The actions of Helena Kobrin. 24 Q In what respect? 25 A Her attempt to destroy a news group on the . 854 1 internet, use net hierarchy called 2 Alt.Religion.Scientology. 3 Q And tell the court what you're talking about 4 there? First off, what is Alt.Religion.Scientology? 5 A Well, it's a news group. It's the 6 equivalent of a bulletin board but a worldwide 7 implementation of it. It's distributed. It is the 8 modern equivalent of a newspaper really. 9 Q And is this a deal where anybody who wants 10 to can post a statement in an area and then anybody 11 else can look at over the internet? 12 A Right, and comment on it as well. 13 Q You mentioned some action that Ms. Kobrin 14 took regarding Alt.Religion.Scientology. What was 15 that? 16 A Is it okay if I explain it by analogy? 17 Q Well, tell us as directly as you can without 18 analogy what it is that you did that led to your bias 19 and concern with Scientology? 20 A She issued a privileged command or had a 21 cause to the issue over her name a privileged command 22 called and RM Group. 23 Q And what is the effect of the issuance of 24 the RM Group? 25 A On news services that configured to accept . 855 1 it, what an RM Group does is delete every file within 2 that particular news group and then delete the news 3 group itself. 4 Q So it basically closes down and destroys the 5 news group? 6 A Correct. After that no one that is 7 connected with that machine can read that news group 8 until it is reinstated with a new group command. 9 Q And what was the basis by which Ms. Kobrin 10 presumed to do this? 11 A I'm sorry, it is one of those kind of things 12 that I have no idea why she decided to do something so 13 foolish. 14 Q Well, let me ask you this. Did 15 Alt.Religion.Scientology die as a result of 16 Ms. Kobrin's stroke? 17 A It had exactly the opposite effect. 18 Q What happened? 19 A She enraged people the world over because by 20 analogy it was the effect of gang of thugs riding into 21 a small Midwestern town a hundred years ago and 22 burning down the newspaper. 23 Q And people responded how? 24 A They were annoyed. They were extremely 25 annoyed. In fact they were enraged. . 856 1 MR. POPE: Excuse me, Your Honor. We're 2 way far field from any probative value of any 3 issue at this moment. 4 MR. MERRETT: I'll catch us up, Your 5 Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. Let's see where 7 we go. 8 BY MR. MERRETT: 9 Q You said that your personal animus against 10 and concern about Church of Scientology had it's 11 origin Kobrin's attempt to destroy 12 Alt.Religion.Scientology. Was there anything else, 13 any other basis for your animus? 14 A Initially, no. 15 Q Subsequent to that? 16 A Plenty. 17 Q What? 18 A Shortly thereafter they pulled -- 19 MR. POPE: Excuse me, Your Honor. The 20 witness has admitted that he is 21 anti-Scientology. He doesn't have to sit 22 here and regale us with tales of why it is 23 so. He's admitted that he has a prejudice 24 against them and it's irrelevant why. 25 MR. MERRETT: That's not exactly true, . 857 1 Your Honor. An unreasoning prejudice goes to 2 credibility whereas a prejudice which is 3 backed up by reason, by actions on the part 4 of the party against whom the prejudice is 5 held strikes far less boldly against one's 6 credibility. 7 THE COURT: Proceed. 8 BY MR. MERRETT: 9 Q What else was there? 10 A Oh, it's an extremely long list. The more 11 recent kinds of things are the two woman that they 12 killed in California. 13 Q Uh-huh. 14 A There has just been enumerable actions that 15 they have pulled. That actions against Mark Bunker. 16 They filed false charges against Mark Bunker in 17 Chicago. 18 Q What happened with those? 19 MR. POPE: Excuse me, Your Honor. He's 20 talking about charges filed against someone 21 other than himself. That can only be based 22 on hearsay. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett? 24 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, what he's 25 testifying about is the reason for his . 858 1 prejudice against Scientology. It's not 2 offered necessarily for the truth of the 3 matter asserted. 4 THE COURT: I think you've established 5 that he definitely is not promoting 6 Scientology. 7 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 8 THE COURT: And as far as you know 9 having to get into the nitty-gritty of 10 whatever happened up in Chicago, he's laid it 11 out sufficiently that he was upset about 12 false charges against somebody somewhere that 13 were filed by Scientology. 14 MR. MERRETT: I'll wrap it up, Your 15 Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 BY MR. MERRETT: 18 Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Henson. The Helena 19 Kobrin that you've been referring to, is she here 20 today? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Where is she? 23 A Right there. 24 Q Okay. The attorney sitting next to 25 Mr. Pope? . 859 1 A That's correct. 2 Q Okay. Would it be fair to say that any 3 disdain or hostility that you have towards Scientology 4 doesn't arise out of their beliefs, but rather their 5 practices? 6 A That's absolutely correct. 7 Q Okay. 8 A There is no one that I dislike because of 9 themselves. It's what they do, what the policy has 10 them do. 11 MR. MERRETT: Thank you. 12 THE COURT: Let me -- just a minute. I 13 want to see if I've got -- I want to clarify 14 something just a minute. 15 Alt.Religion,Scientology was something that 16 was founded other than by the Church? 17 MR. HENSON: Yes. 18 THE COURT: And that's a chat room or a 19 news type service on the internet that 20 anti-Scientologists can go to and post stuff, 21 or was? 22 MR. HENSON: It is today. In facts it's 23 the most popular news group on the net. 24 THE COURT: It exists today? 25 MR. HENSON: Oh, yes. The destruction . 860 1 was reversed. In fact, I had never read it 2 before that day. 3 It's very difficult to describe it. 4 It's kind of like a letters to the editor 5 only strung out endless letters to the 6 editor and with automated machinery which 7 takes care of distributing it. 8 When you post you have readers, you have 9 devices that you read these things and then 10 you post, particularly on the thread that 11 already exists, but you can also start a new 12 thread with these strings of messages. 13 They're called threads and what it amounts 14 to is that it provides something which is 15 something between letters to the editor and 16 a bulletin board where people will stick a 17 message on it and somebody else quote part 18 of that message and stick another message on 19 it and then stick another -- people will 20 quote from that one and then will just wind 21 with these huge tree structure. I've seen 22 some postings that had as many as 100 or 200 23 people that have followed up on a particular 24 topic of interest making comments on. 25 It is very, very widely used. It's . 861 1 actually quite old. It dates back to -- 2 I've been posting on the net using that 3 mechanism for almost 15 years and it is an 4 older method than the web pages that people 5 use now days although there are web page 6 readers that read these news grouping that 7 are out there. 8 THE COURT: How do you find them? 9 MR. HENSON: Typically, you go using a 10 news reader or it used to be that you could 11 use several if the news services, one called 12 Deja News which just got shut down. Another 13 web service bought it and it's very hard to 14 use at the moment. 15 They a haven't got it worked out, but 16 you can go back into there and read postings 17 that a particular person like myself have 18 made going back for a couple of years and 19 there is a fascinating amount of stuff. 20 The new people that have bought the Deja 21 archives have explained that they're going 22 to out it all back up and clear back to 23 where they're talking about 500 Terabytes of 24 material out there. 25 THE COURT: But it's not a WWW dot . 862 1 something. 2 MR. HENSON: WWWW.DEJA.EWS. 3 THE COURT: Do that again for me. 4 MR. HENSON: DEJA.COM. 5 THE COURT: That gets you to the -- 6 MR. HENSON: Right. 7 THE COURT: Now, you're telling me that 8 the lady that you identified issued some sort 9 and RM Group command that wiped out anything 10 that said anything about Scientology? 11 MR. HENSON: It had that attempt. I 12 wasn't reading the news group at the time. I 13 was reading I believe the news group called 14 Comp.Org.EFF.Talk which is a free speech news 15 group and of course a massive attack on free 16 speech because that's what this was viewed as 17 was crossed posted across hundreds of related 18 type news groups. There is 15,000 or 20,000 19 news groups out there and it's amazing. 20 I post sometimes to Sci.Krionics and I 21 post occasionally to another one called 22 Alt.engineering.explosives where I have a 23 voice of caution. 24 THE COURT: You have a voice of caution? 25 MR. HENSON: I am a voice of caution. I . 863 1 tell people that if they want to make things 2 that go boom you have to be careful so you 3 don't get yourself hurt with them. 4 THE COURT: So you don't do them? 5 MR. HENSON: In my misspent youth, Your 6 Honor, I did an awful lot of that, however 7 you may note that I can count all my fingers. 8 THE COURT: Okay. All right. But, 9 getting back here, then this thing 10 which -- this is the reason though, one of 11 the reasons why you feel that you need to 12 voice your opinion against the Church, their 13 closing down the news? 14 MR. HENSON: That was only the initial 15 reason, Your Honor. After that it with one 16 outrage after another. 17 The thing, for example, the letter that 18 I wrote to a judge that got me in all the 19 trouble with the copyright business was a 20 matter that I pointed out that this was 21 basically a criminal instruction manual and 22 that further it was heading in and enjoined 23 them from them making such claims by Judge 24 Casels (sic) some years before in another 25 case. . 864 1 THE COURT: What are you talking about, 2 what manual? 3 MR. HENSON: NOTs, spelled N-O-T, all 4 capitals, small s. It's a short thing for 5 New Era Dianetics for operating -- 6 THE COURT: N-O-T-S 34? 7 MR. HENSON: Yes. 8 THE COURT: And that's that secret 9 document that you were talking about? 10 MR. HENSON: Right. 11 THE COURT: And you wrote a judge about 12 that? 13 MR. HENSON: Yes, I did. 14 THE COURT: Then you got sued because yo 15 wrote a judge? 16 MR. HENSON: Yes. 17 THE COURT: Was this a federal or state 18 judge? 19 MR. HENSON: Federal judge. 20 THE COURT: And was it made part of a 21 public file or something or I mean was this 22 just a gratuitous letter to the judge 23 or -- well, I don't want to get into that. 24 That's all right. I'm sorry. 25 MR. HENSON: It can all be found if you . 865 1 go into the GOOGLE search engine. 2 THE COURT: Who? 3 MR. HENSON: WWW.GOOGLE.COM. 4 THE COURT: G-O-O-G-L-E dot COM? 5 MR. HENSON: Dot COM. 6 THE COURT: And look for what? 7 MR. HENSON: If you put my name and 8 Scientology into that search window that 9 comes up, what you want to look for is the 10 window and if you hit the return key you 11 would get I suspect more than 2,000 web sites 12 that discuss me. 13 Within the first page of that you should 14 find a site by Ron Neuman and the text of 15 the letter that I wrote is there. 16 The copyrighted material is clipped out 17 of that, but it too can be found on the web 18 site of WWW.XENU(X-E-N-U).Net. 19 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Now, 20 having done that I will go back. 21 Mr. Merrett, you may ask questions. 22 BY MR. MERRETT: 23 Q Just briefly. As far as accessing those 24 news groups, can you access them off of Internet 25 Explorer just by clicking news under the mail drop . 866 1 down. 2 A I think you can. 3 MR. MERRETT: Thank you. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 5 MR. HOWIE: No questions, Your Honor. 6 Mr Pope. 7 MR. POPE: I have one area in inquiry. 8 THE COURT: Go ahead, sir. 9 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. POPE: 11 Q Mr. Henson, if I heard you a few minutes 12 ago, you made a reference to things that go boom? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Were you talking about bombs? 15 A And fireworks and other things that go boom. 16 Q Okay. Including bombs, is that what your 17 reference was to? 18 A Technically speaking, no. 19 Q Don't you currently face criminal charges in 20 the State of California arising out of the terrorist 21 threat law in the State of California? 22 MR. MERRETT: Objection. Relevance. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, if I may, 25 pending criminal charges are not relevant to . 867 1 credibility. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. 3 MR. POPE: They're certainly relevant to 4 the prejudice. 5 THE COURT: Overruled. 6 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, objection on the 7 grounds of 90.404(2). 8 THE COURT: Well, that -- yeah. Okay. 9 Now, wait a minute. Good point. Interesting 10 point. But, Mr. Howie, it's interesting from 11 this prospective. 12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, they have to 13 establish relevance through plan, motive, 14 intent, scheme and motis aparendi. There is 15 no predicate for that. 16 MR. POPE: He opened to door to bombs, 17 Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: I understand that and that's 19 the a point that I'm pondering. 20 MR. HENSON: Your Honor, I don't mind 21 talking about this. I'd be glad to give the 22 full tale of it. 23 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, the record can 24 reflect that I've turned my meter off for the 25 ensuing answer. . 868 1 THE COURT: Click. 2 MR. MERRETT: Go ahead. 3 BY MR. POPE: 4 Q My question simply was, don't you face 5 criminal charges by the State of California currently 6 relative to terrorist threats? 7 A Misdemeanor terrorism. 8 Q Are you set for trial in this matter? 9 A At the moment, April 16. 10 MR. POPE: That's the only question I 11 have. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, your meter is 13 still running. So you have anything? 14 MR. HOWIE: No, Your Honor, nothing. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I do have 17 something. 18 THE COURT: I was going to say you back 19 on the clock? 20 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. MERRETT: 24 Q The business about these charges, does that 25 relate to Scientology claiming they think you're going . 869 1 to lob an ICBM into their compound in Hemet? 2 A Yes. 3 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have 4 anything further. 5 THE COURT: Compound where? 6 MR. MERRETT: In Hemet, California. 7 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Anything 8 else? 9 MR. POPE: No, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sir, you may step down and 11 have a seat back out there. 12 Ladies and gentlemen, we've been going 13 about an hour. Let's take a 15 minute 14 break. Thank you. 15 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after 16 which the proceedings continued.) 17 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, you ready to 18 call your next witness? 19 MR. MERRETT: Rob Keller. 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 870 1 Thereupon: 2 ROBERT KELLER 3 was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, was 4 examined and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. MERRETT: 7 Q Would you state your name please, sir. 8 A Robert Keller. 9 Q And where do you live, Mr. Keller? 10 A Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 11 Q And what do you do for a living? 12 A I'm a web designer. 13 Q What does that mean? 14 A I design web pages and back end interfaces 15 for business applications for people who want to get 16 information off the internet. 17 Q Do you have any connection with what is 18 sometimes known as the critical movement regarding 19 Scientology? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How long have you been a critic of 22 Scientology? 23 A Probably since 1993. 24 Q Okay. Did you have occasion to be in 25 Clearwater over the first weekend in December, 2000? . 871 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was the purpose for your presence in 3 town? 4 A It was the annual Lisa McPherson protest. 5 Q And were you here to participate in that 6 protest? 7 A I was. 8 Q Let me ask you if on December 4, 2000 you 9 were present at the premises of the Lisa McPherson 10 Trust? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did you take photographs before and during 13 the events that were testified to concerning the spy 14 camera mounted at the rat bait billing? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, may I approach 17 the witness? 18 THE COURT: You may, sir. 19 MR. MERRETT: I've previously showed 20 these to Mr. Pope. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 BY MR. MERRETT: 23 Q I'm showing you first as a composite, three 24 photographs. Now, I suggest you take a look at them 25 for a moment and then I will ask you to tell us a . 872 1 little bit about them. 2 A Okay. 3 Q Are those photographs that you took? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Are they in fact an original and then two 6 progressive enlargements of the same photograph? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And when was that photograph taken in 9 relation to me and Mr. Minton handling the spy camera 10 on December 4. 11 A It was taken before there was any handling 12 of the camera. 13 Q Do those photographs fairly and accurately 14 represent the condition and the positioning of the 15 camera prior to time that anybody touched it or 16 handled it? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Now, is the box, that junction box that the 19 spy cameras are in, previously marked as exhibit two 20 for identification or an example has been previously 21 marked, is that painted? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And is it painted to match one of the 24 buildings? 25 A Yes. . 873 1 Q Which building? 2 A The rat bait building. 3 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I would tender 4 this exhibit as a composite, I think it would 5 be our number four or five? 6 THE COURT: I believe it will be number 7 five. 8 MR. POPE: I have no objection, Your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, you have any 11 objection? 12 MR. HOWIE: No, objection, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Bear with me please. 14 Proceed. 15 MR. MERRETT: May I approach the witness 16 again? 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 MR. MERRETT: I'm sorry, Judge. What 19 was the number of that exhibit? 20 THE COURT: Five. 21 BY MR. MERRETT: 22 Q Mr. Keller, I'll ask you to take a look at a 23 photograph which appears to depict an unfortunately 24 portly gentleman on the top of the ladder? 25 A Correct. . 874 1 Q Can you tell me who that is? 2 A It's you, Mr. Merrett. 3 Q Is that at the commencement of my 4 examination of the camera on December 4? 5 A It is. 6 Q Can you tell the court where the camera was 7 positioned with respect to the rat bait building at 8 that time and is shown in the photograph? 9 A It's at the very corner of the rat bait 10 building where it butts out about six or eight inches 11 from the Scientology building. 12 Q Is it in contact with the rat bait building, 13 that is up against the corner of the building? 14 A It's very close. I'm not sure if it's in 15 contact. 16 Q Okay. And does that fairly and accurately 17 represent the appearance and position of the camera at 18 the time that it was first handled by Mr. Minton or 19 myself? 20 A You. 21 Q Okay. And do you recall me going first? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. MERRETT: I would tender that as our 24 six. 25 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, any objection? . 875 1 MR. POPE: No objection. Your Honor, I 2 thought you had marked a number five earlier. 3 THE COURT: All right, so that will be 4 six and this will be seven. Thank you, sir. 5 Hold on. Okay. That will be in evidence. 6 Go ahead please, sir. 7 BY MR. MERRETT: 8 Q Mr. Keller, were you present during the 9 entire examination and photographing of that camera or 10 those cameras by Mr. Minton and myself? 11 A I was. 12 Q Did anyone attempt to pass north and south 13 along that sidewalk on Watterson Avenue during that 14 time? 15 A Not that I recall. 16 Q Did anybody request -- did anybody move out 17 of the way of the group of people that was standing 18 there? 19 A No. 20 Q Was there in fact a bread delivery taking 21 place as the Clearwater Bank Building? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did the bread delivery continue to 24 proceed throughout these events? 25 A Yes. . 876 1 Q Did you see anybody who you were able to 2 recognize by looking as a Scientologist come within 3 ten feet of any of the people on the ladder or around 4 the base of the ladder? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. Did you hear anybody shouting, for 7 example, I am a Scientologist. I'm trapped in the 8 building, please move? 9 A No. 10 MR. MERRETT: I don't have anything 11 further. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. HOWIE: 15 Q May it please the court, it is your 16 testimony then that during this entire incident while 17 my client, Mr. Minton, was on the ladder at the spy 18 camera next to the rat bait building that no one you 19 recognized as a Scientologist came within ten feet of 20 Mr. Minton; is that correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q All right. And do you recall any instant 23 during that entire time from the time the ladder was 24 first -- well, let me ask you this. You were there 25 from the time the ladder was first set up until the . 877 1 time it was taken down and taken away? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. And you continued to be there 4 throughout that incident? 5 A Yes. 6 Q During that entire incident was there a 7 single episode where someone identifying themselves as 8 a member of the Church of Scientology complained that 9 they were either being blocked or inhibited from 10 entering or exiting the building? 11 A No. 12 Q Or otherwise blocked in any way from going 13 about their business? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you recall a single incident during that 16 entire episode, again from the time the ladder was set 17 from the time the ladder was taken down of any acts 18 that you could possibly describe as any kind of 19 harassment or violence against any member of the 20 Church of Scientology? 21 A No. 22 Q And finally during that time was there a 23 single incident in which anybody raised up a picket 24 sign and was marching in the immediate vicinity of 25 that ladder? . 878 1 A No. 2 Q Have you had a chance to review the 3 videotape in this case? 4 A Yes. 5 Q All right. And to your, from what you say 6 and heard that day, does that fairly and accurately 7 depict what occurred that day? 8 A Yes. 9 MR. POPE: Okay. Thank you. I don't 10 have any further questions. 11 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pope. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. POPE: 14 Q Mr. Keller, that security camera that 15 Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett touched was actually 16 attached to the Bank of Clearwater Building, right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And it jutted out a little bit and you don't 19 believe it quite touched the building that has been 20 referred to as the rat bait building? 21 A I'm not sure if it was within a millimeter 22 or if it was actually touching. 23 Q All right. And you recognized then and 24 there that it was actually attached to the Bank of 25 Clearwater Building? . 879 1 A It is. 2 Q All right. And you knew that at the time 3 that this inspection was going on? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What was the reason for going up and 6 touching this camera in the first place? 7 A By who? 8 Q By Mr. Minton or by Mr. Merrett? 9 A Neither one told me their reason. 10 Q Why did you will come out with them and 11 photograph this? 12 A Because I thought it was important that 13 somebody take a picture of them doing this. 14 Q What did you think it was? 15 A A camera. 16 Q You already knew it was camera before 17 anybody climbed up on the ladder? 18 A I believed it was a camera. 19 Q Okay. So you can't tell me as you sit here 20 today why Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett got up on the 21 ladder and touched this thing? 22 A No, I don't know. 23 Q You can't tell me as you sit here today why 24 you took a photograph of these, of the camera and 25 Mr. Merrett up on the ladder? . 880 1 A I took a picture so that there would be a 2 record available on the internet of the events that 3 happened that weekend. 4 Q What was the importance to you of having 5 this event memorialized on the internet? 6 A Because there was an examination of a camera 7 going on. 8 Q Why was that important? 9 A It was an event that happened during the 10 weekend. It was reported in various protest reports 11 posted on the internet and to provide a graphical 12 companion to that narrative I thought it was 13 important. 14 Q So what you wanted to do was just report as 15 much on the internet that you could about the events 16 that occurred? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Well, apart from just feeling this necessity 19 to report this on the internet, was there any other 20 reason for climbing up there and fooling with cameras? 21 A Not that I'm aware of. 22 Q Now, after Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett 23 touched the camera wasn't it in a slightly different 24 position? 25 A I thought they returned it to pretty much . 881 1 the original position. 2 Q Okay, so it was actually pulled away but you 3 thought they had put it back in the original position? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. POPE: Okay. I don't have any 6 further questions. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett? 8 MR. MERRETT: Nothing further of this 9 witness, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 11 MR. HOWIE: I have no questions. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Keller, you may step 13 down and have a seat back out there. 14 Mr. Merrett, call you next witness. 15 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, as this time I 16 would move the court to take judicial notice 17 of the filing of the LMT's second motion for 18 an order to show cause on December 4, 2000 19 and the attached photographs of the spy 20 cameras which are located in the court file, 21 both of the fact that it was filed and the 22 fact that it was filed on December 4. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Just a minute. 24 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) 25 Okay, sir. Call your next witness. . 882 1 MR. MERRETT: Was notice taken? 2 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 3 MR. MERRETT: Thank. 4 THE COURT: So noted. 5 MR. MERRETT: Call Grady Ward. 6 Thereupon: 7 GRADY WARD 8 was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, was 9 examined and testified as follows: 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. MERRETT: 12 Q Mr. Ward, where do you live? 13 A In Arcata, California. 14 Q And how long have you lived out there? 15 A Approximately nine years. 16 Q What is your trade or profession? 17 A I'm a computer expert. 18 Q And what does that mean? 19 A Well, most recently it's setting up and 20 maintaining computer networks and maintaining 21 computers so that they're functioning for businesses. 22 Q Is one of the clients or customers for whom 23 you do that the Lisa McPherson Trust? 24 A Yes, it is. 25 Q And you provide that service under contract . 883 1 to them? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q Let me ask you if you or if you can tell the 4 court first off whether you are affiliated -- 5 affiliated may be the wrong word. 6 Are you connected in any way with the -- do 7 you consider yourself part of what is known as the 8 critical movement of Scientology? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And how long have you been actively critical 11 of Scientology's practices? 12 A From January 15 I think it was, maybe a few 13 days earlier, 1995. 14 Q And is that the RM Group notice from 15 Ms. Kobrin? 16 A Yes, most definitely. 17 Q Okay. Now, let me ask you if you were in 18 town, that is in Clearwater, over the first weekend in 19 November? I'm sorry. I'm going to back way up. I 20 want to back up to December of 1999 and January of 21 2000. 22 A Yes, I don't remember the dates 23 specifically, but -- 24 Q Were you present in Clearwater at the time 25 the Lisa McPherson Trust moved into its property, . 884 1 purchase its property and set up? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Let me ask you if you made a deliberate 4 inspection of the premises and the surrounding 5 building? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q And can you tell the judge why you did that 8 and what you were looking for? 9 A Because of my experience with Scientology 10 surveillance with myself and other people I wanted to 11 see what the immediate surroundings were in order to 12 see if there was any change that might indicate 13 additional surveillance cameras and microphones. 14 Q Did you inspect the exterior portions of the 15 building abutting the LMT property and the buildings 16 abutting them? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q And, in fact, did you inspect the whole 19 block? 20 A Um, yes, most carefully immediately from LMT 21 and less carefully away from it. 22 MR. MERRETT: All right. Your Honor, 23 may I see the last two exhibits admitted, the 24 photographs? 25 THE COURT: I think you got more than . 885 1 you need there. Hand that back. 2 BY MR. MERRETT: 3 Q Mr. Ward, I'm showing you Exhibit Six which 4 is a composite exhibit consisting of three 5 photographs. Do you recognize the area that depicted 6 in Exhibit Six. 7 A Yes, it is between the Scientology property 8 and the bank building and the so-called rat bait 9 building. 10 Q Let me ask you if you specifically looked at 11 that place, the place that those two buildings come 12 together among the other places that you inspected at 13 the time the Lisa McPherson Trust was moving to 14 Clearwater? 15 A Yes, I did. 16 Q And you see the junction box there? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q And which we now know contains spy cameras? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Let me ask you if when you made that 21 inspection just before the Lisa McPherson Trust moved 22 into its property was that junction box there? 23 A That junction box was not there. 24 Q Were there any cameras there pointing north 25 on Watterson Street? . 886 1 A None that I could see. 2 Q Okay. Let me ask you if you had occasion 3 within a day or two after making that inspection to go 4 back and reinspect? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q What was the purpose for doing that? 7 A I wanted to -- I like to kind of compare two 8 pictures before and after to see if there is any 9 movement anywhere. 10 Q Uh-huh. 11 A So I go to inspect the area before and after 12 to see if anything new had been added because that 13 would indicate something possibly suspicious. 14 Q And did you find something in the area 15 depicted in exhibit six that had changed? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q What was that? 18 A This additional junction box, apparently 19 innocuous electrical junction box was added. 20 Q And is it connected to electrical conduit on 21 the back? 22 A Yes. Actually it appeared there was also a 23 wire that went into the telephone box. 24 Q Okay. I'm glad you mentioned that. Let me 25 ask you, can you see this? . 887 1 A Yes. 2 THE COURT: You want to step down and go 3 out there so you can turn that around and 4 everybody can see what he is doing? Go ahead 5 and do that because everybody out there has a 6 right to see. Bring it around and Mr. Ward, 7 go ahead and step down and go right there. 8 BY MR. MERRETT: 9 Q Okay. I want you to assume that this is the 10 rat bait building and this is the Clearwater Bank 11 Building. And this is the conventionally housed 12 security camera that looks south along Watterson 13 Street? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. When up until December 4, 2000, first 16 off were you in town on December 4? 17 A Yes, for the occasion of the Lisa McPherson 18 picket. 19 Q Were you present during the events that have 20 been described involving the ladder and the 21 photographs and handling camera? 22 A Yes, I was. 23 Q Up until that time how was the camera 24 situated with relation to the side of the rat bait 25 building? . 888 1 A At that time I believe there was the main 2 bracket which was a little -- 3 Q The spy camera? 4 A Yes. There was a bracket attached to the 5 Clearwater building or what would seem to be a cable 6 that went under the rat bait and down to a shared 7 telephone junction box owned by GTE. 8 Q Where was the -- was the camera box, the 9 junction box in contact with the rat bait building? 10 A Well, the only thing that's right is that it 11 was into the rat bait building's property area. That 12 is it was north of the apparent property line between 13 the Clearwater building and rat bait building. 14 Q As far as the color of the junction box, 15 which building was it painted to match? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q Okay. Now, is it correct that there is a 18 phone box down here? 19 A Yes, that is correct. 20 Q And if this was the spy camera box, you said 21 there was a cable? 22 A Actually if that one, that vertical one 23 represent the boundary between it actually would be 24 probably more to that line. 25 Q Okay. Like that? . 889 1 A Yeah. that's about right. 2 Q And where did this cable run? 3 A Apparently ran from behind the spy camera 4 down to the right and then trajectory into the 5 telephone box. 6 Q This is the telephone? 7 A Yes. I have to point out that it is a 8 shared box between the LMT and the Clearwater Bank 9 Building and the rat bait building. 10 Q So all three of these buildings including 11 the LMT on the other side of the rat bait building had 12 their telephone junctions inside that box? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. You can resume the stand with the 15 leave of the court? 16 THE COURT: Come on back up here, 17 please, sir. 18 BY MR. MERRETT: 19 Q Now, do all of the LMT telephones run 20 through this box? 21 A Yes, they do. 22 Q And you had occasion to inspect them before? 23 A Yes, I have. 24 Q And I want to ask you if on December 4 25 before Mr. Minton and I went outside if you noticed . 890 1 anything unusual or alarming about this telephone 2 line? 3 A Yes, absolutely. 4 Q Tell the judge what you saw? 5 A In order to prevent anybody from tampering 6 with anyone's telephone lines, there is a black 7 plastic seal which protects the external cover from 8 the box from being removed. 9 Q Let me stop you right there. Tell the judge 10 what you mean by that? Is there a little hole where 11 the door closes? 12 A I'm not -- I can describe it, but on the 13 electric meter for example there a little lead seal. 14 Well, you've probably seen that. On this one there is 15 a little plastic seal which when it is shut you can 16 tell whether or not someone has been into it recently. 17 Q Okay. So it's a situation such that you 18 can't open that box without breaking the seal? 19 A Yes, and on that day I saw that the seal had 20 been broken. 21 Q Where was the seal? 22 A I saw the seal, well what appeared to be the 23 seal had been on it because there was it was black. 24 The line had been about three feet away from it. 25 Q From the box? . 891 1 A From the box. 2 Q Okay. Now, is it the routine practice based 3 on your inspections and your being present when the 4 phone company inspected that that seal is always 5 replaced when the phone company accesses the box? 6 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor. I'm 7 going to interrupt and move to strike his 8 testimony on the basis that he has not been 9 qualified as an expert in telephone 10 technology. There has been no foundation and 11 he's opining about all of these things. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett. 13 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, Section 90.406 14 permits uncorroborated testimony as a right 15 or a practice of any business or organization 16 in order to demonstrate that it acted in 17 conformity with a practice on a given 18 occasion. 19 It doesn't require eyewitness testimony, 20 it doesn't require corroboration and it's 21 not a subject of expertise. He is not 22 offering an opinion regarding phone boxes 23 sealing. 24 MR. POPE: I guess you could have fooled 25 me, Your Honor. . 892 1 THE COURT: Let's just wait a minute. 2 He might be fooling me. Let's take a look. 3 90.4 what? 4 MR. MERRETT: I think it's 406, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Routine practice. 6 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, what would you 8 like to say? 9 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I agree with 10 him. This doesn't strike me as expert 11 testimony. It strikes me as a routine 12 practice examination. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Yes, sir. Overruled 14 and we're moving right along and slow down a 15 little bit. Please proceed. 16 BY MR. MERRETT: 17 Q Thank you. Is that a regular practice when 18 the phone man opens the box that he clips it when he 19 closes it, he puts the new on? 20 MR. POPE: Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. POPE: Objection. So he's now 23 testifying to the routine practice of an 24 organization, the phone man, of which he's 25 not a part. He hasn't been qualified to have . 893 1 any knowledge of that. That's the chink in 2 the armor. 3 MR. MERRETT: I understand Scientology 4 is always nervous when there is evidence of 5 breaking and entering, Judge. 6 MR. POPE: Your Honor, that is -- 7 THE COURT: Hold it. Time out. Whoa, 8 whoa. Gentlemen, gentleman, gentlemen, I 9 knew that -- let's don't -- come on, you two. 10 Please, let's don't get back into this. 11 Let's stop. Hold on. 12 MR. MERRETT: I can lay a predicate for 13 it. 14 THE COURT: Let's do that, would you 15 please? Thank you. 16 BY MR. MERRETT: 17 Q Have you on occasions other than December 4 18 been present when this phone box has been opened and 19 inspected by the phone man? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. Approximately how many times with 22 respect to this phone box? 23 A I've been with the phone man probably three 24 times. I've seen, being with the telephone man once 25 in which he specifically sealed it and told me to call . 894 1 him if it ever became unsealed. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And he would inspect it. 4 Q Okay. So, let me ask you this. Prior to 5 December 4 had you noticed that there was a seal in 6 place on the box? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. On December 4 did you notice that the 9 seal was broken? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And did that cause you concern? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And why did that cause you concern? 14 A Because since it was shared box between was 15 and since the telephone box was mounted either on or 16 very close to Scientology property, I thought there 17 was a good chance that someone may have manipulated in 18 order to listen to our conversations. 19 Q Did you inform Ms. Brooks of that? 20 A I'm sure I did or another member of the 21 Trust. 22 Q Okay. Now, were you along with Mr. Keller 23 present essentially throughout the adventure involving 24 the examination and the photographing of the spy 25 camera? . 895 1 A No, I think I left for a short while, but. 2 Q During the time that you were there did you 3 see anybody attempted to travel north or south on that 4 sidewalk along Watterson Avenue? 5 A No, absolutely not. 6 Q Did you see anyone who you recognized as 7 being a Scientologist come within ten feet of any of 8 these people? 9 A No, I did not. 10 Q Did you see anybody who you recognized as a 11 Scientologist stymied and stuck, confused and pulling 12 his hair out in the middle of the road unable to pass? 13 A No. We were very careful and very attentive 14 to traffic coming down Watterson because I was in the 15 street. I didn't want to get run over and I was very 16 attentive to where the placement of the security 17 guard's camera so we would not obstruct anyone, nor 18 did I want them to come too close to me for my own 19 safety. 20 Q Did a bread delivery take place while 21 everybody was out there? 22 A There was a bread delivery going into the 23 building. 24 Q Okay. Did you see or hear anyone, who 25 either by appearance or by word indicated that they . 896 1 were in any way thwarted from anything they wanted to 2 do by the presence of the people on the ladder and 3 around the bottom of the ladder? 4 A No, I did not. 5 Q Did you hear Mr. Ahmed Elkamel screaming at 6 the harassment that Mr. Pope said occurred when the 7 camera was touched. Could you hear from there? 8 A No, there was no indication at all that the 9 camera was active or not. 10 Q Any picket signs out there? 11 A No. 12 MR. MERRETT: If I can have just a 13 minute, Your Honor? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) 16 MR. MERRETT: I don't believe I have 17 anything further. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 19 MR. HOWIE: I don't have anything, Your 20 Honor. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. POPE: 24 Q Mr. Ward, I believe you are listed on the 25 Lisa McPherson Trust brochure as the Web Master and . 897 1 Security Director? 2 A I am listed that way, but my correct job is 3 mostly the computer. 4 Q How would you title your position with the 5 LMT? 6 A Probably the best distinction is that I 7 handle the computer maintenance and underpinnings, the 8 intrastructure of a computer. I do not handle content 9 of the computer. 10 Q Are you salaried by -- does LMT pay you a 11 salary for your services? 12 A As a contractor I'm paid $2,500 a month. 13 Q By the Trust? 14 A Yes. 15 Q For services that you render in connection 16 with the computer system? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Now, over the past few years has Mr. Minton 19 paid you maybe around $50,000? 20 A I don't know the exact number but he has 21 given me money. 22 Q And that's apart from the money you get from 23 the LMT? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Do you have a reason to believe that $50,000 . 898 1 is an incorrect amount? 2 A No, that's probably correct. 3 Q Why has he paid you this sum of money? 4 A Well, paid, saying paid is an incorrect 5 characterization. He has felt sorry for people who 6 have been abused through the litigiousness of 7 Scientology. 8 Q And now you've never been a Scientologist, 9 have you? 10 A No, I have not. 11 Q Now, you mentioned that you had been abused 12 through the litigiousness of the Scientologists; is 13 that right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Were you a defendant in a lawsuit that U.S. 16 District Court for the Northern District of California 17 San Jose Division, the Religious Technology Center 18 Versus Grady Ward? 19 MR. MERRETT: Objection, relevance. 20 MR. POPE: Your Honor, he just opened it 21 up. 22 THE COURT: Proceed. 23 MR. MERRETT: As long as we all hear the 24 hinges creak, Your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Let's listen. . 899 1 MR. POPE: May I approach the witness? 2 THE COURT: Go ahead. 3 BY MR. POPE: 4 Q Let me show you, Mr. Ward. Is that a copy 5 of an order regarding plaintiff's motion for sanctions 6 and renewed motion to compel in the case that I just 7 mentioned that was entered by the court on May 23, 8 2000? 9 A Without studying it I'll assume that's what 10 it is on the face, so the answer is probably yes. 11 Q That's the case you're the defendant in and 12 was this the case in which you had been harmed by the 13 litigiousness of the Scientologists? 14 A Yes. 15 Q All right. And is this a copyright case? 16 A It was copyright, trade secret and action 17 for declaratory relief. 18 Q Has it proceeded to final judgment yet? 19 A Yes, but I prevailed on the trade secret. 20 The declaratory relief was dropped and the copyright, 21 no finding of either guilty or judgment. 22 Q So you settled the case? 23 A Yes. 24 MR. MERRETT: I'm sorry, Judge. I have 25 to object. RTC is not a party to this . 900 1 action. 2 MR. POPE: RTC is a Scientology related 3 company. 4 THE COURT: Proceed. 5 MR. POPE: I'd like to offer this into 6 evidence, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Gentleman, you mind if I 8 play through here just a minute? Pay 9 attention up front. 10 Mr. Pope, explain what it was that you 11 said that they've missed. 12 MR. POPE: I said I'd like to offer this 13 document in evidence. 14 MR. MERRETT: Subject to the same 15 objection, Your Honor. The document 16 obviously -- 17 THE COURT: Relevance, you mean? 18 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 19 MR. HOWIE: Join in the objection, Your 20 Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. And let 22 the record reflect it's being entered out of 23 order and 16. Proceed. 24 BY MR. POPE: 25 Q With respect to this order, Mr. Ward, . 901 1 beginning at the bottom of page two it says because 2 the court is sufficiently concerned that Ward may have 3 submitted false testimony with respect to the 4 particulars of his dealings with Minton, it will grant 5 RTC's request to refer to his testimony to the United 6 States attorney for investigation and further action 7 as appropriate. Is that proceeding still ongoing with 8 the Unites States attorney? 9 A I don't have the document and presumably 10 what you say is accurate. I haven't heard anything 11 from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, so I presume 12 they dropped it as they should have. 13 Q You've heard nothing with respect to this 14 potential investigation by the United States attorney? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Nobody has ever contacted you one way or the 17 other? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Since this order was entered in May of last 20 year? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q All right. Now, whose telephone box was 23 this that you described up here? 24 A Well, presumably it belongs to GTE or 25 Verizon. . 902 1 Q Whose phone did it service? 2 A It services ours, the rat bait building and 3 some of the Bank of Clearwater Building. 4 Q So it serviced all three of those buildings, 5 you think? 6 A Well, the ones that are close to it, yes. 7 Q Okay. And, I believe you said that you 8 thought that had been manipulated so that someone can 9 listen in to LMT's conversations, was that your 10 concern? 11 A That wasn't my testimony. 12 Q Well, tell me what you said? 13 A I noticed that the seal had been broken and 14 therefore I knew that when that happened it should be 15 verified and make sure that our posts inside -- 16 there's rows of many 60 telephone posts inside of 17 which we own six or seven and I wanted to verify there 18 were no additional wires. Had there had been at first 19 I had suspected there were additional lines. 20 Q Your concern was that somebody might be 21 tapping LMT's phone, right? 22 A Yes, and was in fact verified. The rat bat 23 building had wires from our post into the building. 24 Q Now, you of course immediately reported this 25 to the police, didn't you? . 903 1 A No, I reported it to the telephone company 2 when we first noticed that extra wire was in the rat 3 bait building. 4 Q Did you determine that LMT's telephone had 5 indeed been tapped? 6 A There is no way to determine that, sir. 7 Q Okay. So that was just a suspicion and 8 there was no way to ever even determine it? 9 A We did determine the fact, both the 10 telephone repair person and I saw wires from our post 11 going to the rat bait building. 12 Q To the rat bait building? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q But not the Bank of Clearwater Building? 15 A Where they went after the rat bait building, 16 I wouldn't know. 17 Q Okay. What you have is a suspicion and 18 that's it? 19 A No, not that's it. We saw wires going into 20 someplace other than the proper owners of those posts. 21 It's prima facie evidence that somebody was illegally 22 listening to our line. 23 Q But you never have determined who that 24 someone else is, have you? 25 A When I see extra wires that should not be . 904 1 there it makes me suspicious. 2 Q I understand you're suspicious. I asked you 3 if you determined who it is that you suspect tapped 4 your telephone? 5 A Based upon circumstantial evidence I'd say 6 the Church of Scientology is very likely to have done 7 so. 8 Q Have you determined that? Have you 9 determined as a fact that the Church of Scientology 10 tapped the LMT telephone? 11 A No, I have not determined that as a fact. 12 Q All right. Now, when Mr. Minton and 13 Mr. Merrett came out of the LMT building and put up 14 the ladder to go up and look at the camera, did they 15 inspect the telephone box? 16 A They looked at the wire which went into the 17 top of it telephone box. 18 Q And you reported to them your suspicion that 19 the telephone had been tapped? Had you reported that 20 to Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett? 21 A No, I didn't make that kind of conclusory 22 observation. I simply noted that a wire currently run 23 from the spy camera into the telephone box. 24 MR. POPE: May I have a moment, Your 25 Honor? . 905 1 THE COURT: You can have it, sir. 2 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) 3 MR. POPE: No further questions, Your 4 Honor. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett. 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. MERRETT: 8 Q The occasion when you found the extra wire, 9 was that on or around December 4 or was that earlier 10 time. 11 A That was the occasion when you just moved 12 into the building. 13 Q Okay. 14 A Previous year. 15 Q Now Mr. Pope asked you at some length about 16 the nature and basis for your suspicions regarding 17 telephone tapping. 18 Do you have any knowledge or information 19 regarding prior incidence of domestic spying carried 20 on by Scientology? 21 A There are numerous ones, including the 22 infamous one which several of their high ranking men 23 went to jail. 24 Q Okay. That's known as the Snow White case? 25 A Yes, it is. . 906 1 Q Is that -- 2 MS. KOBRIN: Objection. 3 THE COURT: Hold on. Time out. 4 MR. POPE: Excuse me, Your Honor -- 5 THE COURT: Hold on just a minute. Let 6 me hear what he said so I understand what 7 you're objecting to. 8 MR. POPE: Okay. 9 THE COURT: Just a second. That's known 10 as what, sir? 11 THE WITNESS: In the late 1970s -- 12 THE COURT: No, no, you said something. 13 Let's do it this way. 14 MR. WARD: Yes, sir. 15 THE COURT: Madam Court Reporter? 16 (Thereupon, the question and answer 17 referred to was read by the reporter as above 18 recorded.) 19 THE COURT: Thank you. Yes, sir. 20 MR. POPE: My objection is he's 21 testifying about the lawsuit back in the late 22 70s as to which he hasn't indicated he has 23 any personal knowledge whatsoever or that he 24 was a party or that is in any other way 25 competent to testify about it and that . 907 1 lawsuit and apparently his conclusions about 2 it are not probative of any matter at issue 3 in this case. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett. 5 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, they might not 6 have been if Mr. Pope restrained himself than 7 attempting to attack Mr. Ward's suspicions 8 regarding phone tapping as unreasonable. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed. 10 BY MR. MERRETT: 11 Q Is that the case known as Snow White? 12 A Yes, it is. 13 Q And is that the case in which Ms. Kobrin's 14 law partner, Kendrick Moxon, is named as an unindicted 15 co-conspirator? 16 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor. There 17 is no foundation that this witness is 18 competent to testify about any of this, even 19 if it's theoretically relevant. 20 THE COURT: Predicate. 21 MR. MERRETT: Sir? 22 THE COURT: Predicate? 23 BY MR. MERRETT: 24 Q Are you familiar with the circumstances of 25 the Snow White case? . 908 1 A From reading court documents, yes. 2 Q You've read documents from the National 3 Archives regarding Snow White? 4 A Yes, I have. 5 Q And, let's see. 6 MR. POPE: A further objection on the 7 basis that the best evidence of the result of 8 that case would be th pleadings and the 9 judgments entered into it. 10 This witness has read, out of court, 11 court documents somewhere, he's not 12 competent to testify to this, Your Honor. 13 MR. MERRETT: Again, Your Honor, the 14 reason for it is Mr. Pope is asking him about 15 his suspicions. This is the basis for those 16 suspicions. Why he was alarmed enough to 17 succeed -- 18 THE COURT: Proceed. 19 BY MR. MERRETT: 20 Q Thank you. Is that the case in which 21 Ms. Kobrin's law partner, Kendrick Moxon, was named as 22 an unindicted co-conspirator in a spying effort 23 directed at the United States government? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And is that the case in which Mary Sue . 909 1 Hubbard and a number of other high ranking officials 2 of Scientology were convicted in federal court? 3 A Yes, they signed a stipulation that resulted 4 in prison time. 5 Q Okay. Is that the case in which 6 Mrs. Hubbard was represented by Michael Hertzberg who 7 was in here representing Scientology up until day 8 before yesterday? 9 A Same name, Hertzberg. I don't know if it's 10 the same person. 11 Q Okay. Now, did you end up summoning the 12 phone man back out to replace the seal? 13 A I haven't done so most recently, but the 14 first time I asked him to replace the seal. 15 Q I'm talking back on December 4? 16 A Yes, I believe the seal was replace. 17 Q Is it there that now? 18 A The seal yesterday I noticed it had been 19 removed again. 20 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have 21 anything further of this witness. 22 THE COURT: Mr. Howie? 23 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I don't have any 24 questions. 25 THE COURT: Mr. Pope? . 910 1 MR. POPE: Nothing further, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Sir, you may step down and 3 have a seat back out in the audience. You 4 may step down. Let's go. 5 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, at this time I 6 would offer the court this 7 self-authenticating document, the United 8 States attorney's response to informal bills 9 of particulars filed in United States versus 10 Mary Sue Hubbard on January 11, 1979 bearing 11 signatures purporting to be those of 12 officials from the office of the United 13 States attorney for the District of Columbia, 14 bears the clerk's stamp and number 78-401. 15 It also bears the imprint indicating that it 16 was reproduced at the National Archives. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. 18 MR. POPE: Your Honor, it is not a 19 certified copy that I can tell and it's a 20 25-plus year old matter that has no relevance 21 whatever to the issue of whether these folks 22 violated your injunction. It's way far 23 field. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Hold on just a 25 minute. Mr. Howie. . 911 1 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I think it's 2 relevant to show Mr. Ward's state of mind. 3 No matter how old the history is, the history 4 is there. Ha has a right to form his belief 5 accordingly. 6 THE COURT: Gentleman, I'll allow it in. 7 It will be Defendant LMT's Number Eight. 8 I'll give the credibility I feel it deserves. 9 Proceed. 10 MR. MERRETT: Thank you. Call Stacy 11 Brooks. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks. if you will come 13 forward. Please. I'm going to continue you 14 under the oath that you've been previously 15 placed under. 16 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I beg your 17 pardon. After having called her I will not 18 speak to her, but I am in dire need of a 19 comfort break. 20 THE COURT: Denied. No. Let's take a 21 break. We'll take about ten minutes. 22 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after 23 which the proceedings continued.) 24 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that 25 the witness has been previously sworn by The . 912 1 Court and I will continue her under the same 2 oath. But, let's do this just a minute. Let 3 me get this number eight in evidence. 4 (Exhibit Number Eight is admitted into 5 evidence.) 6 Done. 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. MERRETT: 9 Q Ms. Brooks, what is your relationship with 10 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 11 A I'm the President. 12 Q And were you the President back on 13 December 4, 2000? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Let me ask you if recall the events 16 surrounding the examination, touching and 17 photographing of the spy camera by Mr. Minton and 18 myself? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q Did you know who made the decision that that 21 needed to be done? 22 A I did. 23 Q And why was it that you wanted that done? 24 A The circumstance was that Judge Penick's 25 injunction had just been put into effect and I had . 913 1 read the injunction and was very happy to see that 2 part of it stated that there was to be no harassment 3 of the Lisa McPherson Trust by Scientologist. 4 Q Uh-huh. 5 A And the Scientology security people on 6 Watterson Avenue have made it a practice for a number 7 of months to videotape me every time I come out of the 8 parking structure, all the way until I get into the 9 office and also as soon as I leave the office they 10 would begin to videotape me basically whenever I would 11 leave our building. I felt that we were being 12 harassed that we were being videotaped. 13 Q What about the spy cameras? 14 A Also they had this spy camera that they had 15 set up to take video of everyone who went in and out 16 of our building, both this one which is it on our door 17 on Watterson, but also there was one on our door on 18 Ft. Harrison so that there have been a number of 19 incidences where people who are needing help from us 20 had come into our building and then they were 21 videotaped and then they were affected by having been 22 videotaped by the Scientology camera in adverse ways, 23 so when -- 24 Q What is it that you wanted me and Mr. Minton 25 do to? . 914 1 A I wanted you to take photographs of this 2 camera that was trained on our door so that you could 3 attach those photographs as evidence in an order to 4 show cause to Judge Penick for harassment of the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust because of this video camera. 6 Q Are you the person who signed off and asked 7 on the motion for order to show cause asking that the 8 camera be taken down? 9 A I believe so. 10 Q Had Mr. Ward that day told you about the 11 missing seal and the wire running into your phone box? 12 A Yes, and I was very concerned. 13 Q Okay. And for that reason did you ask that 14 Mr. Minton and myself go and collect the necessary 15 evidence to bring that motion? 16 A Well, in fact I asked you. 17 Q Uh-huh. 18 A In fact I asked you to go and take those 19 photographs, however what happened was that you didn't 20 turn out to know how to use the camera well and so Bob 21 Minton took the photographs for you. 22 MR. MERRETT: Okay. If I could have one 23 moment, Your Honor? 24 THE COURT: You may. 25 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) . 915 1 BY MR. MERRETT: 2 Q Now, if I recall correctly the other 3 testimonies, you were not outside during the time that 4 the photographs were being taken; is that correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q I guess the last thing I want to ask you, 7 sort of in follow up to Mr. Henson and Mr. Ward's 8 cross-examination, have any of the people known as 9 Critics of Scientology been sent to prison? 10 A Not that I know of. 11 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have 12 anything further. 13 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Howie. 14 MR. HOWIE: No questions, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. POPE: 18 Q Yes, Your Honor. Ms. Brooks? 19 A Mr. Pope. 20 Q The LMT, when it decided to come into the 21 City of Clearwater could have picked an office almost 22 anyplace in Pinellas County, couldn't it? 23 A Depending on if the owner of the building 24 was brave enough to withstand Scientology's threats. 25 Q But there was nothing that compelled you to . 916 1 move your headquarters right just 20 feet away from 2 the Bank of Clearwater Building, was there? 3 A Yes, in fact, there was. 4 Q You were compelled to do that? 5 A Yes, we are. 6 Q What was the compulsion? 7 A The compulsion was that one of the main 8 reasons that we wanted to have an office in downtown 9 Clearwater was to be available to people who were 10 trying to escape from Scientology, so we wanted to be 11 as close as we possibly could be to where those people 12 were. 13 Q So you made the choice based on your own 14 free will to get just as close as you possibly could 15 to the Scientologist; is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you know from your former association 18 with Scientology that they are concerned about 19 security, don't you? 20 A I know from my former association with 21 Scientology that they -- 22 Q Can you answer my question? 23 A Yes, I am. 24 THE COURT: She's trying to. Let's give 25 her a chance. . 917 1 BY MR. POPE: 2 Q All right. 3 A I know from my former association that they 4 will do everything possible to destroy critics of 5 Scientology. 6 Q Your Honor, that is not responsive to my 7 question. My question was you know that the 8 Scientologists are concerned about security of their 9 people, aren't they? 10 A And again I will say -- 11 MR. POPE: I'm not getting a responsive 12 answer out of her. 13 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a 14 minute. 15 THE WITNESS: It is responsive, Your 16 Honor. The way he is wording the question 17 isn't quite right. 18 MR. POPE: She wants me to ask her a 19 different question. 20 THE COURT: Hold on. I understand that. 21 And I understand the answer she's trying to 22 give. Was security one of the issues that 23 the Church was concerned about? 24 THE WITNESS: Well, the Church is 25 concerned about security only in the sense . 918 1 that they don't want their membership to be 2 able to leave, but as far as -- 3 THE COURT: In other words, they're 4 worried from within rather than without? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. POPE: 8 Q You're aware of that episode out in Oregon 9 where somebody came into a Church facility and shot 10 somebody and rendered them a paraplegic, aren't you? 11 A Yes. 12 Q You're aware that automobiles have been 13 crashed into the front of the Ft. Harrison Building, 14 aren't you? 15 A No, I wasn't aware of that, Mr. Pope. 16 Q Are you aware of a knife wielding fellow who 17 I believe was the son of a deputy sheriff in Pinellas 18 County scaling the wall at the Ft. Harrison Hotel and 19 going in there? 20 A I think that came up in a hearing in this 21 case. 22 Q And are you aware of bomb threats to the 23 Scientologists in Clearwater and elsewhere? 24 A I'm not actually. 25 Q You aware of a bomb going off out at the . 919 1 Hacienda Village; have you heard about that at all? 2 A I'm not sure if I have. 3 Q Well, the Lisa McPherson Trust brochure says 4 our mission statement to expose the abusive and 5 deceptive practices of Church of Scientology and to 6 help those who have been victimized by it. 7 Can you -- do you contend that you're moving 8 in right next door and with the history of threats 9 that events that plagued Scientology over the years 10 that it is unreasonable for them to be concerned about 11 your organization and the threat that your 12 organization poses to them; do you think that's 13 unreasonable? 14 A Can I answer that question in my own words? 15 Q Try. I'd like to know if you think it's 16 reasonable or unreasonable and you can explain your 17 answer. 18 A Okay. That's what I'll do. I do know for 19 sure that the Lisa McPherson Trust poses a great 20 threat for Scientology because we have created a place 21 where Scientologists who need a place to escape to can 22 come and I know that the reason that they put the 23 cameras on our doors in the front and the back and so 24 that they can see, so that they could videotape any 25 Scientologists who came into our building to try to . 920 1 get help and that's why the cameras were out there. 2 Q But -- 3 A And also -- let me finish. 4 Q All right. 5 A And the other reason that the cameras were 6 put there was so that Scientology could videotape 7 anybody who was associating with the Lisa McPherson 8 Trust for the purpose of harassment and information 9 gathering about those people. 10 Q And the harassment that you have suffered at 11 the hands of Scientology since the injunction was 12 entered has been excessive videotaping; is that right? 13 A Among other things, including being followed 14 24 hours a day and one of your process servers told me 15 about this and I believe he's now been fired for 16 speaking to me about it. 17 Q And when you sent Mr. Merrett and Mr. Minton 18 out to inspect this -- 19 A No, I didn't send them out to inspect. 20 Q What did you send them out for? 21 A I sent them out to take photographs of it as 22 evidence for Judge Penick. 23 Q You didn't send them out to crawl up on a 24 ladder and tamper with it? 25 A I sent them out to take photographs and they . 921 1 had to get up on the ladder and move it so they could 2 get a clear photo for Judge Penick. That's the only 3 reason that they got up on the ladder and that they 4 moved it at all. They weren't trying to do anything 5 but take a clear photograph for the judge. 6 Q Well, there was ongoing litigation at the 7 time between the LMT and the other defendants here and 8 the Scientologists at the time they did this act, 9 correct? 10 A You mean the injunction? 11 Q Yeah, this lawsuit, right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q It was ongoing? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Why didn't you just ask Mr. Merrett to file 16 a motion for leave to inspect this or file a request 17 that it be allowed to inspected instead of engaging in 18 self-help under these tense circumstances? 19 MR. MERRETT: I'll object. It's calling 20 for a legal conclusion and assuming facts in 21 evidence. There's no self-help that's been 22 demonstrated. 23 Self-help is eviction of a tenant 24 without leave of court, assistance from the 25 sheriff, it's retrieval of a vehicle without . 922 1 the assistance of the sheriff. It's a 2 loaded term and a legal term. 3 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 4 MR. HOWIE: I join in the objection and 5 I do believe that it is a misuse of the term 6 and it does call for legal conclusions that 7 this witness is not competent to arrive at. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 BY MR. POPE: 10 Q Can you answer that? 11 A Could you say it again? 12 Q Why did you not file a motion in this court 13 before this judge and say we're suspicious of this 14 camera out here or we're suspicious of these phone 15 lines and we would like to inspect this to see if our 16 suspicions are founded? Why did you not do that? 17 A Well, I didn't know that that was something 18 that could be done and also all I wanted them to do 19 was take some photographs and that's all they did. 20 Q They didn't go up the ladder and touch it? 21 A Well, I mean, but the thing is that they 22 couldn't take a photograph from down on the sidewalk 23 because it wouldn't be clear to the judge what it was 24 a photograph of. 25 They had to get right -- they had to get a, . 923 1 you know, judge, they had to get a photograph that 2 showed you what was in the box and in order to get 3 that angle, you know, they had to get up to that level 4 and because the camera was -- because it's like here's 5 the wall and here's the camera and it's angled so that 6 you can literally see our door and you can't take a 7 photograph -- you have to move it a little bit to be 8 able to take a photograph that shows you dead on that 9 it's a camera and that's the only reason that even 10 moved it. 11 They weren't moving it for any nefarious 12 reason at all. I mean I know these guys. They're not 13 doing that. 14 Q Ms. Brooks, over the last year that the LMT 15 has been in Clearwater, how many staff members, 16 Scientology staff members have taken up your offer to 17 seek refuge in your office there or seek your 18 protection? 19 A Several. 20 Q What are their names? 21 MR. MERRETT: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: I would rather not say. 23 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I'm prepared 24 at any time to start putting on the evidence 25 what Scientology does to dissident, but I . 924 1 will object at this point on the basis of 2 relevance. 3 THE COURT: I think we've got a number 4 sufficient. Proceed. 5 MR. POPE: I would like to ask her what 6 is meant by several, Your Honor. Can you be 7 a little bit more specific? 8 THE COURT: That's the question. 9 BY MR. POPE: 10 Q Is that two? 11 THE COURT: Several can be many. What 12 does that mean? 13 BY MR. POPE: 14 Q How many? 15 A Well, you'll have to wait a second while I 16 count, okay. 17 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) 18 At least ten. 19 Q Are these staff members of the Church in 20 Clearwater? 21 A Not all of them. 22 Q How many would be staff members of the 23 Church in Clearwater? 24 A Well, do they have to be staff members 25 or -- . 925 1 Q Yeah, that's my question. How many are 2 staff members of the Church in Clearwater? 3 A Well, four. 4 Q Now, you are the President of LMT? 5 A Yes, I am. 6 Q Is that a salaried position? 7 A Yes, it is. 8 Q In addition to the salary you draw from LMT, 9 has during the past five years Mr. Minton paid you 10 additional monies personally? 11 MR. MERRETT: Objection. Relevance. 12 MR. POPE: Goes to the issue of 13 prejudice, bias. 14 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed. 15 BY MR. POPE: 16 Q Can you answer that question? 17 MR. MERRETT: I'm sorry, Your Honor. Is 18 Mr. Pope suggesting to the court that there's 19 a hidden fondness for Scientology that has 20 not yet been disclosed or a hidden hostility 21 towards persons opposed to Scientology which 22 would be devined by this evidence? 23 It's clearly cumulative to the fact that 24 she is President of the Lisa McPherson 25 Trust. . 926 1 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I think we're 2 entitled to know the extent of the 3 financial -- 4 MR. MERRETT: It's discovery, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Okay. What did you say? 6 MR. MERRETT: It's discovery, Judge. 7 THE COURT: Oh, I thought you said it's 8 staggering. Then I thought I would like 9 to -- okay. 10 I've got to admit it is discovery and 11 she said that she has paid her extra or I'm 12 not sure she has even answered the question. 13 MR. POPE: She hasn't. I think I'm 14 entitled to know that extent of the financial 15 entanglement here. 16 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I join in the 17 objection. I would add that Mr. Pope has 18 already shown the court that she is in a 19 salaried position. I think that the amount 20 of the salary is hardly relevant for purposes 21 of establishing bias or prejudice. 22 THE COURT: I understand that the 23 question is the amount of the salary. 24 MR. HOWIE: And that amount of any 25 payment. . 927 1 MR. POPE: I was asking about personal 2 payments from Mr. Minton, not salary payments 3 from the LMT. 4 THE COURT: The prior witnesses have all 5 testified as to the money that they have 6 gotten over and above contract, etcetera, 7 etcetera. I'm going to allow it. Proceed. 8 BY MR. POPE: 9 Q So can you tell me how much Mr. Minton has 10 personally paid you or paid on your behalf to others 11 in the last five years? 12 THE WITNESS: Your Honor? 13 THE COURT: Yes, ma'am. 14 THE WITNESS: May I say something to 15 you, please? 16 THE COURT: No. I mean everybody has to 17 hear whatever you have to say. 18 THE WITNESS: No, I don't mean for it to 19 be private. What I would appreciate is if 20 you could understand that in every lawsuit in 21 every case that Scientology has against any 22 of the critics of Scientology, all they want 23 to know is how much money Mr. Minton has 24 given to everyone. And I feel that Mr. Pope 25 is delving in my personal life and trying to . 928 1 help Scientology in an intelligence gathering 2 activity for the purpose of things other than 3 in this courtroom and I would really 4 appreciate it if he would not be allowed to 5 follow this line of questioning. 6 THE COURT: That I not be allowed to? 7 THE WITNESS: That he would not be 8 allowed to. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. MERRETT: Judge, if I could be heard 11 briefly on that, it is a fact that for 12 Ms. Kobrin and others, Scientology has been 13 on many fronts in a diligent effort to obtain 14 this precise information. 15 The amount of her salary is not 16 relevant, the amount of the payments is not 17 relevant, however I would ask that if the 18 court deems that it is appropriate for this 19 information to be disclosed here somehow 20 that the court receive that information in 21 camera thereby preserving the witness' 22 privacy rights. 23 THE COURT: What I'll do is I'll reserve 24 for further argument tomorrow. 25 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. . 929 1 THE COURT: Move on, Mr. Pope. 2 BY MR. POPE: 3 Q Okay. How much money has Mr. Minton put 4 into the LMT since it was founded? 5 MR. MERRETT: Objection, relevance. 6 Again, Jude, is the theory that there is some 7 hidden connection here, that Mr. Minton is 8 secretly favorable to the Scientology, the 9 LMT and that in promoting work of L. Ron 10 Hubbard or that the LMT has been quiet about 11 being opposed to the way that Scientology 12 behaves? 13 THE COURT: Mr. Howie? 14 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I join in the 15 objection. And again I don't know how this 16 shows bias or prejudice for this particular 17 witness, what the LMT receives. 18 MR. POPE: Your Honor, there's money 19 flowing all around here. Money sometimes 20 dictates loyalties. It dictates what people 21 think, sometime dictates what they say. It's 22 always a pertinent inquiry regarding 23 motivation. 24 THE COURT: I understand that and again 25 that will be another one you can argue to me . 930 1 tomorrow. But for the purpose of these 2 proceedings as far as any argument about 3 intent or the feelings of either this witness 4 or Mr. Minton re the Church of Scientology, I 5 think that's already been established clearly 6 and unequivocally on the record and unless 7 you know if you can show me that disclosing 8 this money that it's going to grossly effect 9 one way or the other the evidence so far has 10 been presented as to at least the tie to LMT 11 and the injunction by these two individuals, 12 I just say let's move on. 13 BY MR. POPE: 14 Q All right, Your Honor. You complained that 15 the videotaping of you, you consider that to be 16 harassment? 17 A Very much so. 18 Q Now, you, LMT, and its folks engage in 19 videotaping too, don't you? 20 A Yes, we do, however the kind of videotaping 21 we engage in is very much different. We don't engage 22 in surveillance videotaping the way you do. I'm 23 sorry, excuse me Mr. Pope. Not you, but the way 24 Scientology does. 25 Q Okay. . 931 1 A It's not surveillance videotaping of -- we 2 don't stand there outside of the doors of Scientology 3 and hold up a video camera as soon as somebody walks 4 out the door and follow them like this until they get 5 out of sight. 6 That's surveillance videotaping. That's 7 harassment. I feel very strongly that it is. 8 When we videotape, we're videotaping 9 activities that are occurring, we're videotaping 10 interaction that's occurring. 11 We're not just surveilling the 12 Scientologists. That's not our purpose and we've 13 never done that. 14 Q What is your purpose of the videotaping that 15 you do that makes it less objectionable than the 16 videotaping that the Scientologists do? 17 A Well, for me, I think that it's important 18 for people to be able to see the interaction that goes 19 on between Scientology and Scientology critics, 20 because in most organizations, especially any kind of 21 nonprofit organization, certainly religions, you know, 22 there is a great concern for the right of free speech 23 of others, you know, any other nonprofit organization 24 allows for criticism of them without harassment of the 25 critics and there have been several instances that . 932 1 that we have been able to get on videotape which has 2 made it very clear that Scientology was trying to 3 curtail the free speech of critics of Scientology and 4 we feel very strongly at the Lisa McPherson Trust that 5 it's important for people to understand that 6 Scientology does not allow any criticism at all and 7 that they will do whatever they have to do to silence 8 criticism and so whenever we have an opportunity to 9 put that on videotape, we do, but it's still, I still 10 say that it's a totally different kind of thing from 11 surveillance videotaping intended to intimidate 12 people, especially me. 13 Q And you're intimidated by the videotaping 14 that Scientology does of you; is that right? 15 A I was intimidated in particular by the 16 videotaping that Antonio was doing on me on a daily 17 basis at the time that I asked them to do these 18 photographs. 19 Q May I have a moment, Your Honor? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 (A pause in the proceedings took place.) 22 MR. POPE: No further questions, Your 23 Honor. 24 25 . 933 1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. MERRETT: 3 Q Ma'am, Mr. Pope asked you about the fellows 4 walking and shot up on the Scientology Orgs up in 5 Oregon, I guess it was? 6 A Yes. 7 Q He was himself a Scientologist, wasn't he. 8 A I actually don't know. 9 Q Okay. Now, can you tell the court please 10 the number of fixed cameras that the LMT maintains 11 conducting surveillance of Scientology property? 12 A None. 13 Q Can you tell the judge the number of fixed 14 surveillance cameras that the LMT maintains anywhere? 15 A None. 16 Q Do you have one in your hall? 17 A Oh, sorry. We have cameras inside right -- 18 well, Your Honor, the way it works is you walk in the 19 door of our building and then there is a big hallway 20 and it goes the length of the building from Watterson 21 to Ft. Harrison, then the entrance of our office is 22 about a third of the way down on -- well, if you're 23 going in the Watterson door about a third of the way 24 down on the right and we have a camera, we had a 25 camera installed that has one camera pointing to one . 934 1 door and one camera pointing to the other door. 2 Q And this was on the inside? 3 A It's on the inside. 4 Q Do you have any cameras set up outside that 5 just watch passers by or watch Scientologists? 6 A No. 7 Q Now, your public and vocal opposition to 8 Scientology, can you tell the court whether or not 9 that was underway before you met Mr. Minton? 10 A Oh, yes, I started in 1993. I didn't meet 11 Mr. Minton until 1997. 12 Q So it would be fair to say that Mr. Minton 13 did not get you involved in opposition of Scientology? 14 A Very definitely, he did not. 15 Q Now, you talked about the type of 16 videotaping that the LMT does or that you have done 17 for the LMT. Did have you a German government 18 official visiting Clearwater in July of 2000? 19 A Yes, we did. 20 Q Did you have Mr. Bunker of the LMT videotape 21 this event? 22 A The event? 23 Q Her arrival at the airport? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Was that the purpose of gathering the . 935 1 kind of information and documentation you talked 2 about? 3 A Yes, it was. 4 Q Okay. Have you seen that videotape? 5 A Yes, I have. 6 Q Let me ask you if you've seen this one, the 7 one entitled Ursula Caberta arrives 7/22? 8 A That's the videotape. 9 Q Is that and example of the kind of 10 videotaping that the LMT does? 11 A Yes, it is. 12 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I think 13 Mr. Pope will want an opportunity to review 14 this one. I have a copy for him. 15 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the arrangement 16 with respect to defensively used videotapes 17 that were not produced in advance as this on 18 was not is that we adjourn the proceedings 19 until I have an opportunity to review and 20 then it comes in and we're getting pretty 21 close to five o'clock now so I would suggest 22 that. 23 MR. MERRETT: That's fine. 24 THE COURT: Let's do that. We'll give 25 you a chance to view it and we'll pick this . 936 1 up tomorrow morning at this point in time. 2 MR. MERRETT: Actually,w hat I'd like to 3 do if you don't mind, I can probably do it 4 before five is to finish so that I don't have 5 awkwardness since -- 6 THE COURT: I'll tell you what I'll do. 7 You got a couple more quick questions? 8 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 9 THE COURT: Let's finish this. I won't 10 have to put her under a gag order tonight 11 other than, okay, she is a party so I guess 12 that's all right. She's on the stand, and 13 then tomorrow you want to recall her to 14 present or you and Mr. Pope work something 15 like that, we'll do that. 16 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. 17 THE COURT: Go ahead. 18 BY MR. MERRETT: 19 Q Let me ask you this. As far as the use of 20 the camera and videotaping by the LMT, does that 21 generally or nearly universally is that occasions when 22 there are critics or people affiliated with the LMT in 23 the picture? 24 A Of course. 25 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have . 937 1 anything further. 2 MR. HOWIE: No questions, Your Honor. 3 MR. POPE: Nothing at this time. 4 THE COURT: All right. Ma'am, you may 5 step down and have a seat back by your 6 attorney. And ladies and gentlemen, as 7 Mr. Pope did note, it's almost five o'clock. 8 This is a good breaking time for today. 9 Tomorrow morning nine o'clock back here, yes. 10 MR. MERRETT: May Mr. Henson be excused? 11 MR. POPE: As far as I'm concerned he 12 can, Your Honor. Although it would mean, I 13 don't know what the court's plans are for the 14 end of this hearing. 15 THE COURT: Yeah, when I get down to the 16 end if there is something that, you know, if 17 I do find that he had violated the 18 injunction, is he in agreement I can go ahead 19 with sentencing at that time? 20 MR. HENSON: Yes, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect. 22 Okay. 23 MR. HENSON: Thank you, Your Honor. 24 MR. POPE: Your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yeah. . 938 1 MR. POPE: For purposes of planning, do 2 we begin at nine, did you say? 3 THE COURT: Yes, is that all right? 4 Stop at five. 5 MR. POPE: I wonder if we could get an 6 idea of just the number of witnesses they 7 contemplate putting on tomorrow and whether 8 they think they're going to be able to finish 9 in one day or are we going to have to do mor? 10 MR. MERRETT: I expect that I would be 11 able to finish tomorrow. I would guess 12 probably four more witnesses, two of them I 13 would expect to be fairly brief, although 14 actually that's nonsense is what that is, 15 judge. As far a brevity. 16 I have only one or two whom I expect 17 would be a total of an hour or more. But I 18 do expect to have four or five more 19 witnesses. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Howie. 21 MR. HOWIE: I anticipate at least one 22 approximately an hour. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. Anything, you 24 have rebuttal or anything? 25 MR. POPE: Perhaps, but let me ask this . 939 1 question. It sounds to me like we're going 2 to have a full day tomorrow. 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 MR. POPE: And if we don't conclude 5 tomorrow, what do we do then? 6 THE COURT: Monday. 7 MR. POPE: Monday. 8 THE COURT: Nine o'clock. I don't see 9 any way we're going to get to closings 10 tomorrow anyway. 11 MR. POPE: Correct. 12 THE COURT: And I know you're going to 13 at least want the weekend to collect your 14 thoughts if you did present all your evidence 15 tomorrow. And so I know we're looking at 16 Monday, and so you all know for planning -- 17 well, let me state it this way. 18 You're foremost on my calendar. You 19 have my complete attention until this is 20 taken care of so if that takes all next 21 week, you got. Thank you. Have you good 22 night. 23 (Thereupon, the trial was adjourned to 24 reconvene at 9:00 AM.) 25 End of Volume VII . 940 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .